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Ethics and Morality, Characters and their decisions

fawkes28 View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 10:33 AM Post #1
Organizing the Halo Rebellion Posts: 3,214 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course	Ethics are defined as a set of principles of right conduct, or a system of moral values. Morality is defined as the standards of right or good conduct. In Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, the characters are faced with moral and ethical decisions from the beginning of the story until the end. Some of the characters’ decisions can be considered moral and ethical while other decisions are unethical and are not moral. However, there are a lot of grey areas in the story where some decisions could be interpreted as either ethical or unethical depending on the point of view from the reader. Some interesting points to start debating: In the very beginning of the book, we meet the Dursley family whose treatment of Harry is very poor, but they did still provide him with the basic necessities of food, shelter, and clothes. Would you consider how the Dursley’s treated Harry to be ethical or unethical? Hagrid kept bits of his wand and hide them in his umbrella. How ethical is this? Snape’s teaching style in the classroom is very harsh. He embarrasses students and draws attention to their weaknesses. However, one could also argue that he has high expectations for his students. As a teacher, how ethical is Snape? There are also many characters and actions that are highly moral and ethical. A few examples: Harry Potter – the hero of our story who stops Voldemort from getting the stone Albus Dumbledore – the wise Headmaster Neville Longbottom – a boy who stands up to his friends Which character in PS/SS, do you find to be the most ethical or moral? This post has been edited by fawkes28: Jan 21 2007, 10:33 AM -------------------- The Quest Books We will NOT be swayed by a halo draggin', eye batting Phoenix!!! ~DMD

lilian View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 11:39 AM Post #2
Monster Book Stacker Posts: 392 Joined: 9:19am December 14, 2005 Location: Somewhere in the United Kingdom, trying to find JKR's house	QUOTE In the very beginning of the book, we meet the Dursley family whose treatment of Harry is very poor, but they did still provide him with the basic necessities of food, shelter, and clothes. Would you consider how the Dursley’s treated Harry to be ethical or unethical? even if they do provide him with the basic necessities, they don't really behave with him as they should, and they are clearly mistreating us. and this is both immoral and unethical for me. QUOTE Hagrid kept bits of his wand and hide them in his umbrella. How ethical is this? this is a good question. it really depends on what you think is the ground for ethics and morals is. if you think with Plato and Socrates, that the ethics can only be defined with the law, then hagrid's behaviour is clearly unethical. if you think ok Kant's 'categorical imperative', it is also unethical, because you can't generalize hagrid's behaviour without damage to the human world. however, one of kant's premises is that everyone should behave ethically, and the least that can be said is that the ministry did not behave ethically, since they were biased against hagrid and very much willing to believe tom riddle. so, i think that hagrid's behaviour is not ethical, but that he is justified to behave like that, even if i would never give him the RIGHT to do so. QUOTE Snape’s teaching style in the classroom is very harsh. He embarrasses students and draws attention to their weaknesses. However, one could also argue that he has high expectations for his students. As a teacher, how ethical is Snape? snape has not an ethical way of teaching since he violates almost all the students' rights, especially by harrassing some of them. QUOTE Which character in PS/SS, do you find to be the most ethical or moral? i would probably pick DD. HP is indeed a moral character, but in PS, it is more innocence's morality than a real thought morality. DD, on the other hand, tries to act, following a rather strict morality. and i like(d) him for that. -------------------- 2% teens have NEVER tried smoking. I am proud to be one of them. If you are one of them, copy and paste this on your signature!

lydsr View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 02:55 PM Post #3
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 277 Joined: 7:58am January 9, 2007	my personally opinion is that while HP are great books which i love with all my heart, there are some serious flaws in teaching kids about morals and ethics, and what happens when you break rules... -------------------- www.ljrjewellery.com

hpboy13 View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 03:22 PM Post #4
Gringotts Dragon Tamer Posts: 1,926 Joined: 1:57pm May 20, 2006 Location: Probably at a Harry Potter fansite!	Of all the characters, I find Snape the least ethical in SS. A teacher is supposed to be fair, and to encourage learning, and preferably be nice to the students. Snape does none of these. He isn't the least bit fair or nice. And he doesn't encourage learning, with his "The instructions are on the board. Begin." The least he could do, if not demonstrate, is read the directions. The most moral character I believe is Hermione. She follows the rules, but is willing to break them when the need arrises, or to help her friends. She finds that perfect balance. Of course, Hermione grtows steadily less moral as the books progress, but in SS I believe her to be the most moral character. -------------------- Hurrah for censorship! Apparently I'm not allowed to say that I wasn't allowed to say something in my sig. Point is, PM me if you wanna know why I've stopped posting.

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 03:36 PM Post #5
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,422 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	Well, I'm not sure I understand the question. As I see it, we have a number of ethical situations in the book and each one offers us a view of how it stands against the others and how we feel about them. The Dursleys go by the letter of the law. They provide the necessities of life --according to government-- but they do not offer love, which the series will later profess to be the greatest necessity. The Dursleys do teach a strict moral code, but, as it is laced with hypocrisy, Harry learns to reason out what's true and what's false about their creed. The Dursleys are emotionally shallow and intellectually narrow-minded; they are not evil or unethical or immoral. They are mean, petty, and stupid. That is, Muggles. Hagrid's umbrella wand does not seem to be an infraction of any rules. He's had permission to perform minor magic to get Harry his invite to Hogwarts and to see him safely to Diagon Alley. He is provoked into losing his temper by the Dursleys --perfectly understandable. Snape's method of teaching is quite common today. It is a form of crude behaviourism. I personally find it repugnant, but plenty of people love standardized testing, corporal punishment, verbal reinforcement, and 'tough love' as means of bringing up academic standards. Is it unethical? No. Is it immoral? Yes. Should Snape be tost from the Tarpeian Rock? Oh, that is something to think about. There are other questions of a moral nature to ask: Why does Hermione lie about the troll? Should students go about at night after curfew? What about the Norbert incident? Are the trio aiding and abetting in the breeding of an illegal creature? If Snape isn't right about the whole lot of them needing to be expelled or Filch that they are in 'trouble', what is the moral code operating in Harry Potter that Dumbledore seems to find superior to the letter of the law? -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

mandrakeXX View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 04:25 PM Post #6
Hiding in the Iron Maiden at Borgin and Burkes Posts: 323 Joined: 1:30am April 17, 2006 Location: Germany	QUOTE(davidenglish @ Jan 21 2007, 09:36 PM) [snapback]1071745[/snapback] The Dursleys go by the letter of the law. They provide the necessities of life --according to government-- but they do not offer love, which the series will later profess to be the greatest necessity. The Dursleys do teach a strict moral code, but, as it is laced with hypocrisy, Harry learns to reason out what's true and what's false about their creed. The Dursleys are emotionally shallow and intellectually narrow-minded; they are not evil or unethical or immoral. They are mean, petty, and stupid. That is, Muggles. So all Muggles are mean, petty, and stupid? Muggles, people like us, is that what you mean? QUOTE Snape's method of teaching is quite common today. It is a form of crude behaviourism. I personally find it repugnant, but plenty of people love standardized testing, corporal punishment, verbal reinforcement, and 'tough love' as means of bringing up academic standards. Could you give me any examples where Snape uses "standardized testing" (unless you count the assignment to brew a potion so it doesn't explode, turn out as a poison, or exhibits other unwanted characteristics as "standarized testing") or where he uses "corporal punishment"? QUOTE There are other questions of a moral nature to ask: Why does Hermione lie about the troll? Should students go about at night after curfew? What about the Norbert incident? Are the trio aiding and abetting in the breeding of an illegal creature? If Snape isn't right about the whole lot of them needing to be expelled or Filch that they are in 'trouble', what is the moral code operating in Harry Potter that Dumbledore seems to find superior to the letter of the law? You're choosing the more harmless examples. Disregarding the tendency of Harry and Ron to worm their way out of unpleasant tasks like homework by cheating for a moment, of lying, stealing, defaming, attacking people to accomplish what they think are "necessary goals" - what about Hermione confining Rita Skeeter in a jar for weeks, what about blackmailing her into the Quibbler interview? What about Harry wishing to crucio Snape at the end of GOF, and about wishing him dead at the beginning of HBP? I'm not even getting started about the infamous werewolf-incident. The problems I'm having are not about what happens when rules are broken, as mentioned by lydsr above, but about the casual manner rules breaking is treated when it is done for no better reason than showing off or getting the easy way out, with no regard for what this may mean for others, as long as it's done by one of "the good guys". I hate to say that I see much typecasting, way too much of my liking, in the books - the manner characters are first judged as belonging to the good guys or the bad guys (and up to now, you just have to look what house they are/were in to know in which category they belong), and are glorified or vilified accordingly. And only after that is it that their actions are judged - the results confirming the prejudices, not surprisingly. Oh, but I realize that this is a general prbblem of the book series, not just of PS/SS ... so best forget about it This post has been edited by mandrakeXX: Jan 21 2007, 04:51 PM -------------------- “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche

NYBookworm View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 07:10 PM Post #7
Diagon Alley Entrepreneur Posts: 4,399 Joined: 3:58pm June 14, 2005 Location: New York, NY	QUOTE(fawkes28 @ Jan 21 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]1071523[/snapback] Ethics are defined as a set of principles of right conduct, or a system of moral values. Morality is defined as the standards of right or good conduct. In the very beginning of the book, we meet the Dursley family whose treatment of Harry is very poor, but they did still provide him with the basic necessities of food, shelter, and clothes. Would you consider how the Dursley’s treated Harry to be ethical or unethical? Hagrid kept bits of his wand and hide them in his umbrella. How ethical is this? Snape’s teaching style in the classroom is very harsh. He embarrasses students and draws attention to their weaknesses. However, one could also argue that he has high expectations for his students. As a teacher, how ethical is Snape? Which character in PS/SS, do you find to be the most ethical or moral? I'm not sure I quite understand the difference between moral and ethical? What would be an example of them? Would one or both of these be determined by culture? Wouldn't the wizarding world have different morals and/or ethics than the muggle world? If so, which are we using to determine whether characters are ethical or moral? I'm think that the Dursley's, Hagrid, and Snape all believe their actions to be ethical as they are part of what they need to do get by in the world. I think probably the most ethical person in SS/PS is Mcgonagall as she is willing to do the right thing (such as docking her own house points) even when it it difficult. QUOTE(davidenglish @ Jan 21 2007, 03:36 PM) [snapback]1071745[/snapback] There are other questions of a moral nature to ask: Why does Hermione lie about the troll? Should students go about at night after curfew? What about the Norbert incident? Are the trio aiding and abetting in the breeding of an illegal creature? If Snape isn't right about the whole lot of them needing to be expelled or Filch that they are in 'trouble', what is the moral code operating in Harry Potter that Dumbledore seems to find superior to the letter of the law? I think lying could certainly be considered unethical, but lying with a good reason (i.e. hiding holocaust survivors for example) might not be. Does hermionie's lie fall into the category of with good reason becasue ti wsa to protect her friends, I'm not sure. I don't see students going out at night as unethical. I think those rules were designed with consequences becasue they know kids will be kids and there are going to be some that break them. The Norbert thing clearly seems unethical to me. Hagrid asking the kids to help him break the wizarding law isn't right and was dangerous. -------------------- Not-so-proud member of P.C.A.A.: acceptance is the first step to recovery. Vote in the new Wizarding Wireless poll What's Your Favorite New Series This Season?

Professor_Nigell... Professor_Nigellus View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 07:39 PM Post #8
Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 408 Joined: 3:22pm August 10, 2005 Location: Hermione's handbag	Sirius was Harry's Godfather and legal guardian (in the wizarding world) after his parents were killed; however, it was Dumbledore who decided that Harry should be brought to his mother's sister and sent Hagrid to get him. How moral was it for Dumbledore to usurp a decision that rightly belonged to Sirius?

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 08:03 PM Post #9
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,422 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	Well, since Sirius would be considered the man who betrayed Harry's parents by Dumbledore, I doubt he'd put Harry in Sirius's hands. I'm not sure who you find moral and ethical, MandrakeXX, Harry or Snape? The thing about rules is that they are meant as guidelines to ethical behaviour. A general principle cannot cover every situation. When Hermione takes the blame for Harry & Ron going after the troll, is she a little liar or is she doing something noble by risking her reputation for the sake of her friends? Consider that the proposition that one should Honour God and Love Thy Neighbour and that all other law is derived from these precepts. One of the great moments in American literature is when Tom Sawyer decides he'd rather go to Hell than betray the runaway slave Jim. It's that tradition that Harry falls within. A tradition where children know more about right & wrong than the grownups. The grotesque irony of the series is that the stickler for rules and punishment is Snape, the former Death Eater who once embraced a Might is Right philosophy. -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

Arianhrod View Member Profile	Jan 21 2007, 08:15 PM Post #10
Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,039 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd	QUOTE One of the great moments in American literature is when Tom Sawyer decides he'd rather go to Hell than betray the runaway slave Jim. It's that tradition that Harry falls within. A tradition where children know more about right & wrong than the grownups. Great point, davidenglish. I think this is because grownups don't see things in black and white as children do--we see a lot of shades of gray. In addition, we can rationalize our views in ways that children can't. With kids, things are either right or wrong. There is no "well, maybe" or "it's just a teeny white lie". A great example of this is when Harry and Co. insist that Umbridge is evil, and Sirius replies, "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." -------------------- "Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had."--Michael Crichton