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Gryffindor's Sword, ... relating to its past, present, and future.

The Azkaban Diet... The Azkaban Dietitian View Member Profile	Feb 14 2007, 11:32 AM Post #1
Daily Prophet Photographer Posts: 886 Joined: 3:57pm March 23, 2006 Location: Snidget Sanctuary of Sussex	Gryffindor’s sword first appears in the series in Chamber of Secrets when Harry pulls it from the Sorting Hat. But was it always hidden in the hat? How did Dumbledore know about the sword and that it was there unless it came to his aide once before as well? Did Dumbledore hide it there or did Godric himself do it? These questions and many more are what flew threw my brain once I started to think back on the horcruxes and what they could be. Godric’s sword is not a horcrux according to Dumbledore, and there is evidence to support this as well. In the chapter entitled “Lord Voldemort’s Request” in HBP, never is it mentioned that Gryffindor’s sword is present, nor the Sorting Hat. Keep in mind that when Harry does point out the sword, it is always in conjunction with the Sorting Hat, because they sit side by side. He first sees them together in Dumbledore’s office in Goblet of Fire (The Pensieve, pg 583, US), and then again in Half-Blood Prince (The Phoenix’ Lament, pg 626, US). Harry doesn’t seem to take notice of them in Order of the Phoenix, but that’s to be expected since he’s quite angry throughout. To revisit the sword and its background, we can look to Dumbledore. Just keep in mind that Fawkes carried the Sorting Hat into the Chamber of Secrets, dropped it, then proceeded to tear out the Basilisks eyes in the chapter “The Heir of Slytherin.” Afterwards: (pg 319-320, US) QUOTE The basilisk had swept the Sorting Hat into Harry’s arms. Harry seized it. It was all he had left, his only chance – he rammed it onto his head and threw himself flat onto the floor as the basilisk’s tail swum over him again. Help me – help me – Harry though, his eyes screwed tight under the hat. Please help me – There was no answering voice. Instead, that hat contracted, as though an invisible had was squeezing it very tightly. Something very hard and heavy thudded onto the top of Harry’s head, almost knockinghim out. Stars winking in front of his eyes, he grabbed the top of the hat to pull it off and felt something long and hard beneath it. A gleaming silver ssword has appeared inside the hat, its handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs. To me, this proved that the sword did not exist outside of the Sorting Hat before Fawkes brought it to him. It is described in GoF and HBP to reside in a glittering, glass case. Magic has many properties, but for the Sorting Hat to transport the sword from a glass case into the hat is just ridiculous. Why not just have Fawkes carry the sword down into the Chamber instead? The sword was obviously hidden, but again, by whom and what for? And why does Fawkes, especially, know what the Sorting Hat hides? JK Rowling has said that Fawkes has belonged to no other person other than Dumbledore, but we can’t rule out that Fawkes has not known a great number of people. He seems very interested in the good of mankind, indeed. So, it is very possible that Fawkes could have known Godric Gryffindor, as well as other Founders, in the day, and knew the habits of his Sorting Hat being able to hide things such as the Gryffindor sword. Of course, it could be the fact that Fawkes is a magical creatures with senses for magic that even wizards cannot fully understand that led him to know that the sword lay hidden in the hat. But how did Dumbledore know of the sword if it was hidden in the Sorting Hat all along? Dumbledore says that it is Harry’s loyalty to him that brought Fawkes down into the Chamber of Secrets, but Dumbledore also seems to know a great deal about the sword and the hat’s coupling: (“Dobby’s Reward,” pg 334, US) QUOTE “Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry,” said Dumbledore simply. “That” is a stressed pronoun in this statement. Could there be other things hidden in the Sorting Hat, then? But I digress, the main point to show here is that Dumbledore seems to show that he has some knowledge of the hat and the sword’s connection. Perhaps that sword came to his aide in his fight against Grindelwald? After all, Dumbledore was a Gryffindor in his day as well. However, he did not become Headmaster of Hogwarts until after he defeated Grindelwald, so he wouldn’t have as much free reign over School property as he does in Harry’s time. If Godric had hidden the sword in the hat in the first place though, what for? To protect it from something or someone? Slytherin’s bitterness perhaps? It seemed a fine tool in CoS for destroying a basilisk, so could that have been it’s purpose all along? After all, what use does a wizard have for swords? Or egg-sized rubies for that matter? They aren’t native to Britian, but they are a popular gemstone of Asia… a place where phoenixes inhabit. Looking into the future, because JK Rowling herself has said that CoS and HBP have close ties to one another, we see that the Sorting Hat and Gryffindor’s sword are NOT present in Dumbledore’s office in the chapter entitled “Lord Voldemort’s Request” (start on pg 440 for his office visit). In fact, Dumbledore does not even have a Pensieve present, which is another thing to discuss altogether, so moving on…. To those who have said that the small movement Voldemort made in Dumbledore’s office was to turn the sword into a horcrux, this is all the more proof that he could not, because it wasn’t there. Perhaps Dumbledore had it put away at that time, or perhaps it was still hidden in the hat, and the hat was put away. It would seem a great way to deceive Voldemort of its whereabouts, but why showcase it after the fact? Voldemort isn’t gone by time of CoS, Dumbledore knows this... But, Dumbledore is sure that the sword is not a horcrux. However, he does not rule out that one of Gryffindor’s belongings could be a horcrux… Why? Could Tom have pilfered through the school via the Vanishing Cabinets until he found something of Gryffindor’s? Dumbledore is most likely keeping his options open. As for we the readers, we can say that since the sword is not a horcrux, it is most likely that Ravenclaw’s relic is indeed the culprit. Perhaps it is even a deathly hallow… Looking into the sword’ possible future we can see the possibility of Gryffindor's sword coming to rescue Harry once more. Just stick it in the hat and take it with you on your horcux-hunt, Mr. Potter, by all means. This post has been edited by The Azkaban Dietitian: Feb 14 2007, 11:38 AM -------------------- Everthing will be alright in the end If it is not alright, then it is not the end... -- Unknown

harryfreak_org View Member Profile	Feb 14 2007, 11:54 AM Post #2
Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 1 Joined: 11:20am February 8, 2007	wow, i've never looked at the sorting hat and the sword with that much detail before. The questions raised were really interesting and make good points. i really don't know what will happen. every other rumour contradicts another theory or point that's been made. i agree with you that maybe taken the hat will help him on his way..lol.

jslotter2004 View Member Profile	Feb 14 2007, 12:26 PM Post #3
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 270 Joined: 12:27pm August 3, 2006 Location: Philadelphia	Let's remember, the hat was also Gryffendor's. The hang proclaim's it in one of his songs, the first one I believe, but I'm at work and can't check. I think that's where the connection begins. I always assumed that Dumbledore played a role in putting the sword in the hat. Remember his quote directed at Harry when being pulled out of Hagrid's Hut. -- Help will always be given to those who ask for it -- or something like that. Harry should have sent word directly to Dumbledore when Ginny was taken. Remember when he feels the sword, it's right after he is silently screaming for Help. I think one of two things happened. Either Dumbledore put some kind of enchantment on the castle, knowing to some extent what was happening, or two, and the more likely I think, the Headmaster of Hogwarts is afforded certainly abilities by the castle. I think it allows Dumbledore to see what is happening throughout the school, it gives him control over the portraits, and perhaps to some extent, allows him to do things like magically put a sword in a hat. I know that's thin, probably paper thin, but given what we have seen Dumbledore accomplish, not unreasonable IMHO. PS GREAT SCREEN NAME -------------------- "Then Minister, let us consider this a parting of the ways."

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Feb 14 2007, 06:04 PM Post #4
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	What a great topic TAD, and great opening post. I too have always wondered about the magical theory behind exactly how the sword is hidden in, and then suddenly appears out of the hat right when Harry is desperate for help. It seems as if Harry does that a lot this year. For some reason I am reminded of when the Ford Anglia is being beaten by the whomping willow and Harry screams out "reverse!" which then causes the hitherto unresponsive car to suddenly drive out of harms way. So, I do wonder if enchanted items are keyed to verbal commands, or if there is something even deeper such as the blood protection over Harry causing magic to work to preserve his life. Seeing as Dumbledore is the one who both cast these additional charms and seems to have his finger in everything that occurs at Hogwarts, one does have to wonder. Back to one of the original points of the sword in the hat. I have had a suspicion since one of Jo's interviews where Melissa asks her about Harry and the heir of Gryffindor and Jo basically shoots that down, but then tells us that inquiring into Dumbledore's family would be profitable, that the Dumbledore line can be traced back up to the Gryffindor line. I personally think that Dumbledore has had possession of the sword passed down through his family's line and that he somehow magicked the sword into the hat before he left the school. He would have had time to make this provision, seeing as how he did not have to flee his office like he did in OotP, and I think that fawkes had instructions to bring the hat to Harry if his need was great. More and more I think that Dumbledore knew the nature of the monster, even if he had no idea where to find it or where the opening to the CoS was. Again, Dumbledore reminds me of a great chessmaster, who is placing all of his pieces carefully in the hope that his conqueror can checkmate the opponent. edited for clarity This post has been edited by SoonerGryffindor: Feb 14 2007, 06:06 PM -------------------- This Episode is so big, we needed Hermione's beaded bag WeasleyCast.Com

jslotter2004 View Member Profile	Feb 14 2007, 06:17 PM Post #5
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 270 Joined: 12:27pm August 3, 2006 Location: Philadelphia	I was starting to think that perhaps the sudden instances of magic were really an offshoot of the way young children do magic without really knowing how or why. However, the Dumbledore protection theory is AWESOME!. Generally speaking, I struggle when applying Dumbledore's ability as a chessmaster. To me, even Dumbledore knowing the type of monster and who was controlling it, the sword in the hat seems to be a bit of a stretch. It may not be, I need to think about it some more. I guess the argument could be made that Harry was not strong enough/experienced enough to defeat the monster with just a wand. Accordingly, he would need Fawkes and a more conventional weapon. So the chain of events would be as follows. Dumbledore gets suspended. He knows that the monster may attack again so he puts the sword in that hat. Ginny is taken into the Chamber. Harry goes after her. Realizing he can't handle the monster himself, Harry asks for help. At some point after Ginny is taken, Dumbledore is notified via owl that Ginny is in the Chamber (remember it's like four hours that she is in there before Harry arrives). He either sends Fawkes for the hat immediately, or tells Fawkes to go to Harry should he call. I guess that's pretty logical. I think it makes more sense if Dumbledore brings the hat and sword with him. I still think it's thin for him to assume Harry or anyone would need it. -------------------- "Then Minister, let us consider this a parting of the ways."

The Azkaban Diet... The Azkaban Dietitian View Member Profile	Feb 15 2007, 12:37 PM Post #6
Daily Prophet Photographer Posts: 886 Joined: 3:57pm March 23, 2006 Location: Snidget Sanctuary of Sussex	QUOTE(SoonerGryffindor @ Feb 14 2007, 06:04 PM) [snapback]1101819[/snapback] I too have always wondered about the magical theory behind exactly how the sword is hidden in, and then suddenly appears out of the hat right when Harry is desperate for help. It seems as if Harry does that a lot this year. For some reason I am reminded of when the Ford Anglia is being beaten by the whomping willow and Harry screams out "reverse!" which then causes the hitherto unresponsive car to suddenly drive out of harms way. So, I do wonder if enchanted items are keyed to verbal commands, or if there is something even deeper such as the blood protection over Harry causing magic to work to preserve his life. Seeing as Dumbledore is the one who both cast these additional charms and seems to have his finger in everything that occurs at Hogwarts, one does have to wonder. Back to one of the original points of the sword in the hat. I have had a suspicion since one of Jo's interviews where Melissa asks her about Harry and the heir of Gryffindor and Jo basically shoots that down, but then tells us that inquiring into Dumbledore's family would be profitable, that the Dumbledore line can be traced back up to the Gryffindor line. I personally think that Dumbledore has had possession of the sword passed down through his family's line and that he somehow magicked the sword into the hat before he left the school. He would have had time to make this provision, seeing as how he did not have to flee his office like he did in OotP, and I think that fawkes had instructions to bring the hat to Harry if his need was great. More and more I think that Dumbledore knew the nature of the monster, even if he had no idea where to find it or where the opening to the CoS was. Again, Dumbledore reminds me of a great chessmaster, who is placing all of his pieces carefully in the hope that his conqueror can checkmate the opponent. An excellant point about Harry's magical protection being a possible factor in his command of magical objects, though if only he were so lucky with magical plants. (eg the Whomping Willow) As for Dumbledore being related to Gryffindor, I have to say that I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if it were so. As much as it is speculated, it is one of those scenarios where is would just be wonderful to have the fandom's speculations about something so intricate be set in stone as truth. Jo did seem to mull the answer to that question over for a while... there is indeed something more to Gryffindor heirs in my opinion because of that. QUOTE(jslotter2004 @ Feb 14 2007, 06:17 PM) [snapback]1101832[/snapback] I was starting to think that perhaps the sudden instances of magic were really an offshoot of the way young children do magic without really knowing how or why. However, the Dumbledore protection theory is AWESOME!. Generally speaking, I struggle when applying Dumbledore's ability as a chessmaster. To me, even Dumbledore knowing the type of monster and who was controlling it, the sword in the hat seems to be a bit of a stretch. It may not be, I need to think about it some more. I guess the argument could be made that Harry was not strong enough/experienced enough to defeat the monster with just a wand. Accordingly, he would need Fawkes and a more conventional weapon. So the chain of events would be as follows. Dumbledore gets suspended. He knows that the monster may attack again so he puts the sword in that hat. Ginny is taken into the Chamber. Harry goes after her. Realizing he can't handle the monster himself, Harry asks for help. Children do perform magic in desperate circumstances, yes, but I think this constitutes as a little different since Harry didn't make the Sorting Hat appear all on his own. It was his loyalty that summoned Fawkes after all. Well, I'm looking in Fanstasic Beasts, and I don't see anywhere where the Basilisk is described as having a thick set of skin like the Dragon or the Graphorn (which has skin tougher than a Dragons, btw). So, I don't see why a sword would be fashioned for defence against the Basilisk in the old times of Hogwarts and its beginnings. It would make more sense to battle a Basilisk at a distance in my opinion, so wands would be preferred. However, Harry didn't have his wand since Tom Riddle had taken it, so... I'm wondering... What if Dumbledore just had it set up with Fawkes so that if Harry ever came into some inescapable danger (seemingly) at Hogwarts that he would have Fawkes go to his aid? Of course, Fawkes only went down into the Chamber to begin with because of Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore, but Dumbledore has always had faith in Harry, so it's a moot point. Also, I don't think Dumbledore had to tell Fawkes to go down into the Chamber; I think it was Fawkes' own choice. I've always seen him as one that protects those who protect Dumbledore. In this case, Harry was protecting Dumbledore's good name. He also showed great loyalty and bravery by throwing Dumbledore's greatness in Tom's face, which I just found hilarious. -------------------- Everthing will be alright in the end If it is not alright, then it is not the end... -- Unknown

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Feb 15 2007, 02:54 PM Post #7
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	I agree that Dumbledore did not send fawkes directly down into the chamber. Honestly, I have never thought about this issue in this manner, so my thoughts on this are new and not completely formed, but I keep getting stuck on the fact that a sword appeared and it was exactly the thing that Harry needed. It is starting to make me wonder if there was anything else in the hat, but the sword is what came out because that was what met Harry's needs at the time. I mean, a spare wand might have been useful for a more experienced Harry, but we are talking about 12 year old Harry, who at the time did not have the magical knowledge that he does now to battle such a monster. Of course, this opens up a whole slew of other Magical Theory questions such as how and why the sorting hat would be a depository for magical weapons. I can't see Harry as having summoned it with his own uncontrolled magic, as he had no idea the sword even existed and would have never envisioned battling the basilisk with one. I am going to go think about this some more -------------------- This Episode is so big, we needed Hermione's beaded bag WeasleyCast.Com

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Feb 15 2007, 03:19 PM Post #8
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 8,745 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	The hat can see into the wearer's mind. Yet, one's free will can help the hat sort you. (This is why Harry didn't get into Slytherin) Harry asked the hat to help him, so my guess is the hat has some enchantment that allows the founders to give the wearer what they need. This is an excellent line of discussion. I'm going to "think outloud" for a minute, so please excuse the train of thought kind of post! We know that the founders placed part of their brains in the hat. (the Sorting Hat's song) Harry needed to beat the Basilisk, and Gryffindor handed him his sword using the hat. While GG was not "in" the hat, Harry wearing the hat allowed the hat to see the problem, and use the combined intelligence and magical abilities of the founders to solve the problem. The more I think of the hat, the more I realize what a Powerful object it must be. The hat tells us that it has the minds of the founders in it, and we know it can read the character of an individual. Imagine what it could do in the future to help Harry! Excellent topic The Azkaban Dietitian. Really makes me think of the hat in a different light. -------------------- avatar by The Rockin Leaky Staff

Acrux View Member Profile	Feb 16 2007, 01:03 AM Post #9
Hiding in the Iron Maiden at Borgin and Burkes Posts: 316 Joined: 2:44am December 3, 2006 Location: Living, sadly, about as far from Hogwarts as you can get! . . . . Looking for an Antipodean Opaleye.	QUOTE(SoonerGryffindor @ Feb 16 2007, 08:54 AM) [snapback]1102877[/snapback] Honestly, I have never thought about this issue in this manner, so my thoughts on this are new and not completely formed, but I keep getting stuck on the fact that a sword appeared and it was exactly the thing that Harry needed. It is starting to make me wonder if there was anything else in the hat, but the sword is what came out because that was what met Harry's needs at the time. I mean, a spare wand might have been useful for a more experienced Harry, but we are talking about 12 year old Harry, who at the time did not have the magical knowledge that he does now to battle such a monster. Gee, thanks. Now I've got the picture of the wizards hat from the old Dungeons and Dragons (TV) cartoon in my minds eye. Its main power was supposed to be that its owner could pull out whatever item he/she needed for the current situation. I'm probably going to have this image pop up whenever the sorting hat is mentioned or shown from now on! Thanks, - Acrux -------------------- Of course, every time Ron gets a Moment, the first thought in my head is automatically "Well, I guess That's not making the movie." - flyin_car

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Feb 18 2007, 10:29 AM Post #10
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 8,745 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	QUOTE though an invisible hand was squeezing it COS In this interview Jo has said "There is more to the sorting hat then you might think" QUOTE The character you might be most surprised to see evolve is none other than the Sorting Hat. "There is more to the Sorting Hat than what you have read about in the first three books," Rowling says. "Readers will find out what the Sorting Hat becomes as they get into future books." I still think that this hat, that holds "part of the brains" of the founders gave Harry the sword because GG can think and act through that hat. At the same time, the other founders can as well. If Harry could use the combined knowledge of the four Founders, think of the possibilities. What else could Harry (or anyone else for that matter) pull out of that hat? -------------------- avatar by The Rockin Leaky Staff