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SPEW Was a Mistake, It could not happen |
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 Jan 21 2008, 11:34 AM
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Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song
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Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag
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well, there are at least two threads on this subject, so I'll be brief.
Yes, Hermione can't set house-elves free simply by knitting them hats and socks. These acts are symbolic. Not unlike wearing a red, pink or white ribbon shows solidarity for a cause. It's consciousness-raising.
House elf liberation is not necessarily the goal of SPEW. It's the Society for the Promotion of Elvish Welfare, so it's about expanding their rights and securing recognition that they should not be treated like property. See SPEW's manifesto.
Finally, Hermione's comments on Kreacher in DH bear rereading. She understands that he's trapped in a class consciousness that he can't easily, if ever, escape. It is reform from above that she realizes is necessary. And Regulus's sacrifice is testimony to the possibility that wizards can change.
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Come the words that bubble
Up through broken laughter,
Sweeter than spring-water,
"Gods, I am so happy!"
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Jan 21 2008, 12:41 PM
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Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's
Posts: 2,977
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QUOTE Society for the Promotion of Elvish Welfare Other than Kreacher, Dobby, and Winky, how many elves do we see Hermione talking to. We see instead, Dobby having to take on all the work of the other elves. If she was interested in Elvish welfare, wouldn't that start with talking with the elves?
QUOTE And Regulus's sacrifice is testimony to the possibility that wizards can change. I am not certain about that. There is nothing to show that all wizards treated their house elves as shabbily as the Malfoy's. Molly wanted one to help with the ironing, but if she was willing to allow Ron to use money to care for his pet rat, I'm certain she would have cared for her houseelf. Up until he faced exposure, Barty Crouch Senior seems to have given Winky the same regard as a family member. She is the one who pursuaded Barty Crouch Senior to allow Barty Junior to go the Quidditch game. According to Jo, the elves who worked at Hogwarts were there as a refuge, so the seeds for protecting the species was there for one thousand years. Regulus' sacrifice seems more proof that he valued his servant as an individual and had affection for him. Some people have compared this to the affection on has for a family pet, and there is nothing to suggest that Regulus felt anything more than this. As Dumbledore says of Sirius, Sirius was kind to house elves--just not his own house elf, who was not exactly kind to him. Sirius did not value Kreacher, or even the place Kreacher held in the household, but rather than freeing both himself and Kreacher from the situation, or trying to make the best of things by at least thanking Kreacher for keeping the house, Sirius took advantage of his position to abuse Kreacher by showing contempt for everything Kreacher held dear--the honor of the House of Black.
QUOTE It is reform from above that she realizes is necessary. I agree that this is what is needed, but what about Spew indicates that Hermione realized this?
Wanting to alert wizards who did not see or know of the plight of elves was a good idea. There was a part of their society that allowed for potential abuse of their fellow creatures. It's like telling someone that a certain toy or clothing line is created by child labor or other questionable labor practices. But one cannot pursuade a child who feels she or he helping to feed his or her desperately poor family that working is wrong. But adults in this household should have this job and the reason they do not have the jobs is because the employers will not pay adults a decent wage or even hire them. You can't stop child labor unless you stop the conditions that allow employers to exploit the poverty of others. But if alerting wizards that the treatment of elves in their society was inhumane was Hermione's goal, wouldn't it have been wiser to first talk to McGonagall and Dumbledore--wizards with some authority over the elves in Hogwarts or Gryffindor Tower about this? Perhaps she could have gotten a better understanding of situation, allow Dumbledore to meet with the elves offer wages, lodging, even education and better opportunites for the elves at Hogwarts?
Starting spew without the participation, knowledge, and consultation with the elves was not the best approach, in my opinion, for that reason. Not only did Hermione not have the right to free the Hogwart's elves--she didn't have the means to help them find ways to maintain themselves afterwards. Other than caps, what was she offering them?
This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Jan 21 2008, 12:50 PM
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Jan 22 2008, 02:46 AM
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Terrortours Travel Agent
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Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007
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QUOTE Yes, Hermione can't set house-elves free simply by knitting them hats and socks. These acts are symbolic. Not unlike wearing a red, pink or white ribbon shows solidarity for a cause. It's consciousness-raising.
At the time she believed she was able to do so. She was concerned that she did not knit enough socks/hats by Christmas break and there were some elves she hadn't yet set free. I think she believed she was giving the elves the choice to free themselves or not by leaving the items around.
QUOTE Up until he faced exposure, Barty Crouch Senior seems to have given Winky the same regard as a family member. She is the one who pursuaded Barty Crouch Senior to allow Barty Junior to go the Quidditch game.
He was treating her as a substitute for his deceased wife, in fact. She took care of his son and he talked shop with her, she knew about his work-related issues, she knew his opinion of various Ministry personel.
QUOTE But if alerting wizards that the treatment of elves in their society was inhumane was Hermione's goal, wouldn't it have been wiser to first talk to McGonagall and Dumbledore--wizards with some authority over the elves in Hogwarts or Gryffindor Tower about this?
Well, she did sell Dumbledore a membership badge, so at least he was aware of her efforts. The point is that of the elves in Wizarding Britain, those at Hogwarts did have good working conditions, and they had mutual support - they were the ones who least needed improved welfare. It was elves who lived alone with a wizarding family who were most at risk because supervision was impossible - the elf is required to keep the masters' secrets, including secrets of abuse.
I agree hermione was not thinking her idea through - she had no idea what freed elves could do, how they could survive, what they needed to do so. (Compare with animal rights activists who 'liberate' laboratory animals, which then go on to get run over by trafic.)
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Jan 23 2008, 02:27 AM
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Dumbledore's Personal Secretary
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Location: In a bowling alley with my boss.
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I agree with Maime and Davidenglish. Hermione at that point of time wasn't thinking about the rehabilitation issues, but just concentrated on freeing the elves. If the house-elves had been freed en masse, it would have been a big disaster for them. Wizarding people not yet prepared to pay their elves to work. As a result, they would just have to wander about feeling miserable.
Dumbledore would have paid the Hogwarts house-elves if they asked, but what about the elves who worked for families ? (Oryx, where do you get the part about Dumbledore having bought a badge ? did Jo mention it in any interview ?) Hermione's heart was is the right place, but her reason wasn't yet functioning to full capacity taking all the factors into consideration. 
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Jan 23 2008, 02:13 PM
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Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's
Posts: 2,977
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QUOTE He was treating her as a substitute for his deceased wife, in fact. She took care of his son and he talked shop with her, she knew about his work-related issues, she knew his opinion of various Ministry personel. This is very common in situations when one person or group of person serves one family. The lines between master and servant intercept. I got the feeling that same situation existed between Walburga Black and Kreacher--he might have been her servant since she was an infant, her confidant, more so that her cousin/spouse. Kreacher is angry at Sirius because Sirius broke his mother's heart, embarrassed the family by going to Azkaban, defying their ways, befriending half-bloods, mudbloods, werewolves, blood traitors and theives.
And Hermione looking from the outside of this situation doesn't really understand the bond between master and servant because the institution of elf enslavement, rather than servitude as vocation itself, is flawed.
At some point, someone in the Malfoy family had decent values and or valued their house elves as Regulus and his mother, and possibly Bellatrix and Naricissa valued them, or Dobby would not have consider that he was maltreated. He wouldn't know the difference.
This type of awareness--after abuse-- is often the case when an intitution is flawed: Consider writings of Josiah Henson. He at one time thought himself head and shoulders above his fellow slaves. His was proud of the things he did to bring his master money because his master shared his winnings. But then he found himself treated as he was, a piece of property, and he finally understood how currupt the system than enslaved him was--not only to himself and the other slaves, but to the masters, for it forced them into the position of tyrants.
Bellatrix killed Dobby for betraying his mistress, just as she was hunting down her own niece for what she considered disgracing her family. (I personally think she was perfectly fine ignorning Tonks, except as a member of the Order, had not the Dark Lord made fun of her.)
But Hermione is just appalled at the idea that these intelligent, humanoid beings are slaves--with the twentieth century understanding of the institution. And as Oryx says:she had no idea what freed elves could do, how they could survive, what they needed to do so She didn't think that far.
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Jan 23 2008, 03:10 PM
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Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song
Posts: 6,253
Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005
Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag
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QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Jan 21 2008, 05:41 PM)  QUOTE Society for the Promotion of Elvish Welfare Other than Kreacher, Dobby, and Winky, how many elves do we see Hermione talking to. We see instead, Dobby having to take on all the work of the other elves. If she was interested in Elvish welfare, wouldn't that start with talking with the elves?
QUOTE QUOTE And Regulus's sacrifice is testimony to the possibility that wizards can change. I am not certain about that. There is nothing to show that all wizards treated their house elves as shabbily as the Malfoy's. Molly wanted one to help with the ironing
Molly's comment is hearsay. Ron reported it. But it would seem more likely that she was expressing her frustration that she didn't get more help from her seven children. Isn't it more likely that such an exclamation as "Oh, what I wouldn't give to have a house elf!" would be followed by the more mundane "But I haven't, so get off your duff, Ron Weasley, and help me put all this laundry away." It is then that Ron would wish that they really did have a house elf.
Mr Crouch is not kind to Winky. He's not kind to anyone. And Winky persuades him to let his son go to the World Cup because Jr has persuaded her. She's being used by both father and son. Nice family.
QUOTE QUOTE It is reform from above that she realizes is necessary. I agree that this is what is needed, but what about Spew indicates that Hermione realized this? QUOTE It's like telling someone that a certain toy or clothing line is created by child labor or other questionable labor practices. But one cannot pursuade a child who feels she or he helping to feed his or her desperately poor family that working is wrong. But adults in this household should have this job and the reason they do not have the jobs is because the employers will not pay adults a decent wage or even hire them. You can't stop child labor unless you stop the conditions that allow employers to exploit the poverty of others. QUOTE But if alerting wizards that the treatment of elves in their society was inhumane was Hermione's goal, wouldn't it have been wiser to first talk to McGonagall and Dumbledore--wizards with some authority over the elves in Hogwarts or Gryffindor Tower about this? Perhaps she could have gotten a better understanding of situation, allow Dumbledore to meet with the elves offer wages, lodging, even education and better opportunites for the elves at Hogwarts? Dear me! Hermione is 14. She's not about to lobby McGonagall and Dumbledore. No, she's about to lobby her friends and classmates. That's her peer group. She is in no position to lobby the Establishment. But she can talk to those who will listen and respect her because they are her equals. And that is what she does. And she does want the house elves of Hogwarts to consider the issue as well.
QUOTE Starting spew without the participation, knowledge, and consultation with the elves was not the best approach, in my opinion, for that reason. Not only did Hermione not have the right to free the Hogwart's elves--she didn't have the means to help them find ways to maintain themselves afterwards. Other than caps, what was she offering them? Yes, yes. And John Brown should have left well enough alone and maybe the pesky Civil War between the North and the South would never have happened.
It's absurd to suggest Hermione had no "right" to liberate a slave. We all have the "duty" to do that. What Hermione doesn't realize at 14 is that she doesn't have the power to liberate them. It's something that can't happen like "magic". It requires a gradual process. Her education of Harry in the matter of Kreacher shows how wise she's become by the last book. And we can presume that, in her career in the Ministry, she did much to reform laws concern house elves.
This post has been edited by davidenglish: Jan 23 2008, 03:18 PM
--------------------
Come the words that bubble
Up through broken laughter,
Sweeter than spring-water,
"Gods, I am so happy!"
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Jan 23 2008, 03:34 PM
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Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's
Posts: 2,977
Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007
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QUOTE There are, apparently two missing chapters of GoF where Hermione does talk to house elves. Really? Then why we do find Dobby in OOP telling Harry:QUOTE "None of them will clean Gryffindor Tower anymore, not with the hats and socks hidden everywhere, they finds them insulting , sir. Page 385
Sounds like Hermione's doing a lot of talking to the elves and no listening what so ever. If she is concerned with Elf welfare, don't you think listening to the elves concerns and not insulting them by assuming that she knows better than they what they need would go a long way in showing her concern giving her movement more impetus?
QUOTE That's two families who treat house elves abominably. Where is the evidence that Mrs. Black treated Kreacher unkindly? Anymore unkindly than she treats her sons, if you mean teaching him her values.... Regulus had to learn to care how his elf was treated by someone. I think it was his mother. They have elf heads on the wall---Kreacher thought this was an honor. He felt serving Mrs. Black was an honor.
As to child labor. I pointed out the difficulty in the fight against it. The child doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. He's supporting his family and a great number of children in this postion have less resentment. They parents don't see their actions as abuse as no one will hire them and have to pay real wages. That is the situation. One learns this by talking to the victims of this social abuse--the child laborers and their families--or just go to the Amesty International site, or call them , or other human rights organizations and volunteer. They are powerless to change things, and as they are already in dire econmomical state, they are reluntant support strikes and other methods when they have no other means of supporting themselves. There's a great film on the child fighters in Asia--yes the practice is appalling...but if we "free the kids..." but leave the exploitation the practice will resurface in other ways. The activist has go after is the employer--and maybe even the local government. If neccessary finding ways to criminalize their actions, if not then boycotts their products or their investors and put pressure on them to change their practices or lose business. And as we can see with trying to get people to divest from certain business in the Sudan that is by default funding the genocide in Dafur--this is a long and difficult process. That's not defeatest--that's knowing your enemy.
QUOTE She's not about to lobby McGonagall and Dumbledore. She was fifteen in GOF and Sixteen in OOP. Hermione is older than Ron and Harry. McGonagall and Dumbledore respected Hermione's intelligence so why couldn't she approach them, talk to them about her concerns, get a clearer understanding of Elf servitude beyond the obvious abuses, consult with them on a way to make things better? Why couldn't she get them to address the class about this the same way she did about the Chamber of Secrets when she
What would Dumbledore or McGonagall of all people do to her that Herminone should be too afraid or shy to speak up for a cause she believed in? She was a prefect wasn't she? What's the point in approaching her classmate who had less access to McGonagall and Dumbledore, than she did? I see nothing at all to prevent Hermione from going to the source. The canon reason, I think would be that Dumbledore and McGonagall as members of the Order and having to deal with Fudge's attack on Harry and Dumbledore were involved with a greater promblem at that time.
QUOTE Yes, yes. And John Brown should have left well enough alone and maybe the pesky Civil War between the North and the South would never have happened. I'm more than aware of the efforts of people like Fredrick Douglass, or Sojourner Truth and the unsung heroes of underground railroad, who were willing to put their lives on the line to give people shelter, and the courage of those persons of color who were willing to speak up against the injustice of slavery--once they got to the North, Canada and England.
But Hermione is not leading the elves in the fight against wizard cruelty. They're not following her, and her peers are just confused. And whom if she is fighting for Elf freedom is she confronting other than the Establishment?
I can nothing in my post to inspire this statement, about John Brown, David. I said, and stick by my statement that Hermione's approach, because she did not listen to the elves and because she did not take the time to speak to the people employed the elves_Dumbleodre in this case about her concerns, was flawed. What I see is a young woman so enamoured by her own new found sense of honor and justice that she has lost a sense of the welfare of the individuals she is supposedly fighting for. She's fighting against the institution of slavery, and she is correct: Slavery wrong and should have be abolished, but she has, if she doesn't realize her methods have alienated the very people she wants to liberate, very little interest in the elves indivdual welfare and concerns.
Trying to talk to Hermione, Dobby and Winky must feel like Fredrick Douglass listening to Lincoln and others speaking of wholesale Emancipation and his solution (to the welfare of the slaves) of resettling Black people in what is now Liberia and other such American colonies in Africa, rather than offering ways for Black people to assimilate into the society they had worked and lived in for almost four centuries, equal rights and an end to terrorism from their white neighbors and co-workers many Black laborers experienced when competing for jobs and business. Only there was really no elf-world for the Elves to go to. I imagine the elves were looking at Hermione's caps thinking, free to go where an do what--back to Keebler tree?
Yes, I know the Battle Hymn song talks about John Brown--but surely we don't want anyone to read this thread and beleive we think that John Brown revolt on Harper's Ferry started the Civil War or that he was father of the American Abolitionist movement against slavery in the US? The first slave uprising in the America's predated the Revolutionary War. There were several revolts and conspiracy led by Black men, ex slaves and freedmen. People more or less rewrote, John Brown's history John Brown, romanticized it, and the image of a the white man trying to take arms to the enslaved became a kind of rallying image those groups of white soldiers who did strongly opposed the idea of Slavery. But historically he was rather late in the call for insurrection and most black leaders in the time, rejected this kind of violent approach to freedom. But he died in 1859, the Civil War started with the attack on Fort Sumter(spelling) in 1861.
This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Jan 23 2008, 11:02 PM
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Jan 23 2008, 05:10 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner
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QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Jan 23 2008, 09:34 PM) And McGonagall and Dumbledore respected Hermione's intelligence so why couldn't she approach them, talk to them about her concerns, about the intitustion of Elf servitude, consult with them on a way to make things better? What would Dumbledore or McGonagall of all people do to her that she should be too afraid or shy to speak up? She was a prefect wasn't she? What's the point in approaching her classmate who had less access to McGonagall and Dumbledore, than she did? I see nothing at all to prevent Hermione from going to the source. Hermione reacts so scandalised when she realises that there are Elfes working at Hogwarts that I think at that point she doesn't expect any help or understanding from the teachers because they are part of the establishment that upholds the enslavement and benefits from it.
It's a bit naive of course, she should have asked herself earlier who is doing her laundry.
And it's a bit arrogant too, to believe that she alone worries about the well-being of House Elfs while Dumbledore already provides good conditions for the Elfes at Hogwarts.
But to my mind we shouldn't hold that against her because she is 14 as davidenglish pointed out, an age at which being a bit naive and arrogant and dividing everyone in being either good or bad is normal.
But she is beginning to develop a political conscience and she is eager to get things going. Later in DH she has a more thought-out view on the matter I think.
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"I am not worried, Harry, I am with you."
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