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The Art or the Artist, Which is the greater? |
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 Feb 2 2008, 02:42 PM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron
Posts: 408
Joined: 3:22pm August 10, 2005
Location: Hermione's handbag
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I get a little upset sometimes when people bring Rowling into discussions in the other Flourish and Blotts fourms because this is the forum to discuss the literary aspects of the story, and why the author wrote it the way she did, the other four forums are for discussing the story. Is it just me who considers Art to be greater than the Artist? I do not think it maters whether or not an author intended to put into a story what a reader takes out of it. For example; I can see a negative side to the power of love, I think Harry's breakup with Ginny was more selfish than it was noble because he was more concerned with how he would feel if Ginny was hurt in the war than how Ginny would. I doubt that Rowling intended that, but does it matter? Does that make me wrong if she did not?
I stopped using the word "cannon" once the story was compleded because, to me, they are the same thing. I will accept the books mentioned in the story to be a part of it, but I will not accept comments made by the author outside of it to be a part of it. It is too late now to tell us Dumbledore's sexual orientation or that some of the Slytherin students returned to fight in the last battle. She could write an eighth book; but she cannot change, or add to, the seven that have already been published.
Does anyone agree?
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Feb 2 2008, 03:38 PM
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Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song
Posts: 5,663
Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005
Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag
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All I can offer is from WB Yeats' Among School Children:
QUOTE Labour is blossoming or dancing where
The body is not bruised to pleasure soul.
Nor beauty born out of its own despair,
Nor blear-eyed wisdom out of midnight oil.
O chestnut-tree, great-rooted blossomer,
Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
O body swayed to music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?
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Come the words that bubble
Up through broken laughter,
Sweeter than spring-water,
"Gods, I am so happy!"
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Feb 3 2008, 04:06 PM
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Fighting off a lovesick shawl at the Second Hand Robe Shop
Posts: 7,666
Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005
Location: near Muggleswick, UK
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QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Feb 2 2008, 07:42 PM)  For example; I can see a negative side to the power of love, I think Harry's breakup with Ginny was more selfish than it was noble because he was more concerned with how he would feel if Ginny was hurt in the war than how Ginny would. I doubt that Rowling intended that, but does it matter? Does that make me wrong if she did not? I think the first thing you need to do is look to see whether the author ever did express such an opinion, because it seems to me you are ascribing a view to the author purely to disagree with it. My opinion is that Jo would agree with you somewhat, that there was a degree of selfishness in Harry's actions, but also nobility, but it was mostly purely practical, in that it would be impossible for Harry to stay Ginny's boyfriend and do what he had to do, and Ginny wouldn't want him to.
But I do take the things Jo says as canon unless there are good reasons not to (for example I don't accept that Fred died in 1997 even though it was on the family tree on her website because it contradicts what we already know). In other things you a free to pick and choose, for example it is clear that in Jo's opinion Harry was in a limbo between life and death at King's Cross, but she deliberately wrote it so it could be interpreted as just being inside his head (though I think the former does indeed fit better with what is written). Again with Dumbledore being gay I again think she left it open for them just to be good friends, though again I do think it fits better that there was a sexual attraction because it explains Dumbledore's actions better.
However I do think if you disagree with something Jo has said it is up to you to justify your opinion, because Jo has spent 17 years on these books and put a lot more thought into them than any of her fans, and written them according to her version of things she didn't put into the books, so you can't brush aside her opinions lightly.
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 W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Feb 3 2008, 05:43 PM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron
Posts: 408
Joined: 3:22pm August 10, 2005
Location: Hermione's handbag
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I would appreciate it Roonwit, if in the future you would pay more attention to my use of words like "doubt" and "if" before accusing me of ascribing a view to the author purely to disagree with it. I did not claim to know what the author intended; what I implied was, I don't care.
I didn't challenge your agreeing with Rowling's statement that Hermione joined the Ministry in the Free Kreacher thread because I didn't want to argue the point there, in Notible Magical Names; I will here. I highly doubt that, for the same reason that a lot of people thought that Harry would not become an Auror, Hermione doesn't have much more respect for the Ministry than Harry does. The reason I agree with her about Harry becoming an Auror is that you cannot dedicate your life to putting Dark Wizards into Azkaban without working for the Ministry, however Hermione could do much more to secure Elf Rights working outside the Ministry then inside it.
Before you say it, I will agree that J.K.Rowling created Hermione Granger and she gets to decide her character. Nevertheless, now that the story has been published, Hermione belongs to we readers as much as she does to the author. You cannot sell your story and still own it.
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Feb 3 2008, 05:56 PM
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Fighting off a lovesick shawl at the Second Hand Robe Shop
Posts: 7,666
Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005
Location: near Muggleswick, UK
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QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Feb 3 2008, 10:43 PM) Hermione could do much more to secure Elf Rights working outside the Ministry then inside it. Actually, she couldn't. Outside the ministry she would just be a voice that no-one has to listen to, and the ones who really need to listen won't. Inside the Ministry, she can legislate so that house elves get treated fairly, which since they don't want to be freed, is the best she can do, because Hermione finally recognizes that to improve the lot of the house elves she has to work with them, rather than pursue so ideological ideal that would only upset both wizards and house elves.
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W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Feb 3 2008, 06:20 PM
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Gringotts Dragon Tamer
Posts: 1,931
Joined: 9:13pm February 18, 2005
Location: Admiring my own immense beauty
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QUOTE(roonwit @ Feb 3 2008, 04:06 PM) But I do take the things Jo says as canon unless there are good reasons not to (for example I don't accept that Fred died in 1997 even though it was on the family tree on her website because it contradicts what we already know).
Could you enlighten me about this particular inconsistency? I must've missed it. Because I'm totally lost trying to figure it out.
QUOTE However I do think if you disagree with something Jo has said it is up to you to justify your opinion, because Jo has spent 17 years on these books and put a lot more thought into them than any of her fans, and written them according to her version of things she didn't put into the books, so you can't brush aside her opinions lightly.
Actually, this is beef I have with a lot of fans. Is HP great? Yes, I love it too. But that doesn't mean I fall to knees in worship of JKR, and treat every word and action we hear of her as the equivalent of God. I think too many people do. There's a mindset that, "that you have to agree with every she says and does 100%, just because". There doesn't even have to be rationale there.
But if you do disagree, even about something totally trivial, then there's a dozen people ready to jump down your neck. Just because you disagreed, and someone else can't take it. But this is what some people consider being a "true fan". It goes on to a point where a person can't even form an opinion of their own. Because even if it's actually a point contradictory to something "JKR herself said", they'd be contradicting her. It might sound ludicrous, but it happens nonetheless.
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Feb 3 2008, 07:38 PM
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Conductor for the Knight Bus
Posts: 1,626
Joined: 7:59am June 6, 2006
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QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Feb 2 2008, 07:42 PM) Is it just me who considers Art to be greater than the Artist? I do not think it maters whether or not an author intended to put into a story what a reader takes out of it.
...I will not accept comments made by the author outside of it to be a part of it. It is too late now to tell us Dumbledore's sexual orientation or that some of the Slytherin students returned to fight in the last battle.
Does anyone agree?
I don't think it is a question of the art being greater than the artist, but that they are simply entirely different entities. Once a book is published and in the public forum I do see it as being outside of the authors control. People will see in it what they choose regardless of the authors intentions. My personal experience with this situation was with Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials. I was shocked after reading and interview with him to find that what I had taken from the book was in direct opposition to his fundamental beliefs and the very basis on which he wrote the series. But I didn't really care because as far as I was concerned once it was published it really wasn't any of his business what I or anyone else thought of it, that's our perogative to think what we choose 
So I suppose I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think Jo is a unique situation. There have been very few series published in the way Harry was, with the author as involved with fans as Jo is. I welcome most of the additional info she offers and often find it enhances the story.
QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 2 2008, 08:38 PM) QUOTE How can we know the dancer from the dance?
 Reminds me of the tagline to the movie Flashdance : "When the Dancer becomes the Dance", Good reference 
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