| 1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users) |
|
His Dark Materials - Protests Ignite |
|
|
|
 Mar 9 2008, 06:49 PM
|
Waiting for Wednesdays
Posts: 8,742
Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005
Location: Hiding from Hurricanes
|
The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights protested The Golden Compass, both the book and the movie saying.....
QUOTE "New Line Cinema and Scholastic Entertainment have paired to produce 'The Golden Compass,' a children's fantasy that is based on the first book of a trilogy by militant English atheist Philip Pullman. The trilogy, His Dark Materials, was written to promote atheism and denigrate Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism. The target audience is children and adolescents. Each book becomes progressively more aggressive in its denigration of Christianity and promotion of atheism: The Subtle Knife is more provocative than The Golden Compass and The Amber Spyglass is the most in-your-face assault on Christian sensibilities of the three volumes.
Find the entire article here.
The article continues with statements such as .....
QUOTE "Atheism for kids. That is what Philip Pullman sells.
and
QUOTE "We are fighting a deceitful stealth campaign on the part of the film's producers. Our goal is to educate Christians so that they know exactly what the film's pernicious agenda really is."
From Phillip Pullman's website ...
QUOTE Religion
Some of the articles and talks I've written are to do with the subject of religion, which I think is a very interesting one. The religious impulse – which includes the sense of awe and mystery we feel when we look at the universe, the urge to find a meaning and a purpose in our lives, our sense of moral kinship with other human beings – is part of being human, and I value it. I'd be a damn fool not to.
But organised religion is quite another thing. The trouble is that all too often in human history, churches and priesthoods have set themselves up to rule people's lives in the name of some invisible god (and they're all invisible, because they don't exist) – and done terrible damage. In the name of their god, they have burned, hanged, tortured, maimed, robbed, violated, and enslaved millions of their fellow-creatures, and done so with the happy conviction that they were doing the will of God, and they would go to Heaven for it.
That is the religion I hate, and I'm happy to be known as its enemy.
From time to time I have a new thought on the subject. When I come up with something worth writing down, I'll put it here.
We've seen much of the same passion ignited in the Harry Potter series.
Points to Ponder:
* After reading this novel (which is of course the first in a trilogy) Do you see this book as a way to undermine Christianity, or does it appear to be more of a statement against organized churches?
* Fantasy novels in general tend to take a large amount of anti-Christian critique, do you think this is just a curse of the genre?
* Pullman states an opposition to organized religion. In what ways do you see that reflected in this novel?
*Comparing GC/NL to the Harry Potter series, do you see any instances where Rowling might have been expressing her political/religious feelings in her writing?
Please remember our be nice rule when responding to this topic. I know this topic can be a hotly debated one, but I'd like to think that mature people can agree to disagree without being rude. If you don't think you can post in this topic without passing our "be nice" rule, then please consider not posting. 
--------------------
avatar by The Rockin Leaky Staff
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 04:26 AM
|
Madame Pince's House Elf
Posts: 4,111
Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005
Location: Telephone box, Wagga Wagga
|
Ok here are my views:
* After reading this novel (which is of course the first in a trilogy) Do you see this book as a way to undermine Christianity, or does it appear to be more of a statement against organized churches?
Frankly I see the book as more of a statement against organized churches and anyone else who wants to tell people what to believe. Phillip Pullman's books were completed in the 1990's, whilst JKR was still writing. Only now when the first book was filmed was there any complaint from any church.
* Fantasy novels in general tend to take a large amount of anti-Christian critique, do you think this is just a curse of the genre?
Well some do take some amount of Anti Christian critique, but it all depends on what a person wants to believe or read for that matter. Christopher Paolini's Eragon, the written novel, was just as anti Christian as Golden Compass but I don't recall the local priest manning the pulpit to denounce Eragon and beg parishioners not to go and see the movie. A lot of the criticism which comes from good writers is just the same sort of criticism that could be levelled at anyone who wants to mindbend people to do what they want.
* Pullman states an opposition to organized religion. In what ways do you see that reflected in this novel?
The Oblation board wants conformity and power which is why they want to capture children and separate them from their daemons. The difficulty I have with that is that the Oblation board which wants this process, conspicuously consists of adults with daemons in tow and who would suffer if they were separated from the daemons. Furthermore, taking children away from their parents is a definite no-no unless there are very good published and accepted reasons for doing so.
*Comparing GC/NL to the Harry Potter series, do you see any instances where Rowling might have been expressing her political/religious feelings in her writing?
I think JKR expresses her feelings clearly when she portrays Quirrell, the host of Voldemort in the first book, stating that there is no good and evil, only power and those too weak to take it. Quirrell was a baddie, due to Voldemort and his mantra. It is powermongers that are the problem, whether politicians or religious identities.
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 05:13 PM
|
Leaky Cauldron Napkin Folder
Posts: 3,417
Joined: 3:30pm April 5, 2007
Location: In my Gringott's vault. The ride made me kind of....*turns green*
|
QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Mar 9 2008, 06:49 PM)  * After reading this novel (which is of course the first in a trilogy) Do you see this book as a way to undermine Christianity, or does it appear to be more of a statement against organized churches? I don't see the book as an attack on Christianinty. I see Pullman as speaking out against people, or religions, who use their faith and their beliefs to oppress other people. The Church in Northern Lights oppresses the people of Lyra's world by censoring information, claiming information against their teachings to be heretical, and by forcing the intercision on children...by even using the intercision at all. Pullman is, in my opion, speaking out against this, and not Christianity itself. 
--------------------
"If you believed as he did. Could you take away his soul?" ~Carlisle, New Moon   Thanks to {{voldy}} for the awesome siggies! |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2008, 12:58 PM
|
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song
Posts: 6,421
Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005
Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag
|
Well, I'd start of by mentioning that the Church of GC/NL is not the Church of this world. In Lyra's world, the Reformation has never happened. We have an alternative history. But we still have the problems of Original Sin and of Church hierarchy which is certainly touched on in HP.
And we have Mary Malone. I've said elsewhere that I think the model for Mary Malone, the scientist we meet in The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass, is Karen Armstrong, the ex-nun and historian of religion.
In the thead on Christian Symbolism in HP, I long argued that JKR seemed to be expressing a form of Pelagianism, which embraces Egalitarianism and Universalism in her story. I think I'd say the same about Pullman. It seems to be a peculiar aspect of the British character that they've always been individualists. (Pelagius was English or Welsh.)
There has always been tension between the Established Church and individual members. We see this in the Gospels where Jesus engages in debate with the Sadducees who take a literalist view of the Bible.
Of course, in Pullman's book, we see a blending of Biblical, Classical and Nordic mythologies. And there is the heavy influence of Milton's Paradise Lost. I'm sure this is seen by Christian conservatives as an affront to their beliefs, but that's only because they tend to consider the interpretation of scripture to be closed.
I think I'd like to point out that the Archbishop of Canterbury would like HDM to be part of the Religious Instruction curriculum. And he debated, rather cordially, Pullman and one can read that debate here.
It's odd. Last year there was a big fuss over a chocolate Jesus. This year I saw a story about a white chocolate Last Supper, and there was no fuss at all. I suppose it all has to do with the flavour of the day.
--------------------
Come the words that bubble
Up through broken laughter,
Sweeter than spring-water,
"Gods, I am so happy!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 01:47 AM
|
Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit
Posts: 2,463
Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007
|
I don't think that Pullman is necessarily attacking Christianity, but I don't think he is limiting his criticism of organized religion to a general statement about not oppressing other people. It has a more personal feel to it, like he is trying to convince his readers what organized religion will do to them personally. Certainly, the church of GC/NL has a strong hold on the political power, but the actual story is about how this evil church is trying to separate children from their soul. It might be this more personal message that has people up in arms, because it questions the very value of having religious beliefs at all.
So, are the protests justified? I would say...kind of, but no. First off, I think that parents can be a bit unconcerned when it comes to the books their children are reading, and I appreciate any kind of attention called to a book that is marketed to children that may have a message I don't agree with. However, I don't like the general book-burning attitude that comes along with an "official" declaration that something shouldn't be read. Personally, if my child picked up the book (which is currently laying around the house) and asked to read it, my answer would be "Sure, go ahead and let me know what you think"; but if we were standing in a library full of books, and my child asked for ideas on what to read, I wouldn't recommend this one.
This post has been edited by Pyxis: Mar 26 2008, 11:27 AM
--------------------
Join us in Jo's Book Nook for discussion of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, starting Jan. 1. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 02:31 PM
|
Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes' best customer
Posts: 1,018
Joined: 6:58pm September 1, 2006
Location: The road less traveled by
|
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Mar 26 2008, 02:47 AM) So, are the protests justified? I would say...kind of, but no.
I would not say a protest for any book is justified. I understand that you believe parents have say over what their kids do and don't read, and I, too, believe that, 100%. But when people protest -actually saying what stranger's children can and can't read, that is wrong. While we have freedom of speech, we also have freedom of the press, so boycotting a book or prohibiting people to read it (other than your own children) can not be justified, in my opinion.
Although, I do agree with you Pyxis, when you say it has a more personally feel to it. It sort of is up to the individual reader, as people will read it with different perspectives. I find the book to be masterful, taking account to the theme of organized religion or not.
As for parents concerned about giving their kid's the book, I just have to say, most kids will not understand the message Pullman is trying to pull across unless they are older. If they like the book at all, it will probably be for the action and mystery, rather than the themes.
--------------------
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great."
-Mark Twain
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 06:47 PM
|
Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit
Posts: 2,463
Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007
|
QUOTE(Snufflespup @ Mar 26 2008, 01:31 PM) I would not say a protest for any book is justified. I understand that you believe parents have say over what their kids do and don't read, and I, too, believe that, 100%. But when people protest -actually saying what stranger's children can and can't read, that is wrong. While we have freedom of speech, we also have freedom of the press, so boycotting a book or prohibiting people to read it (other than your own children) can not be justified, in my opinion.
Hmmm, yes you are right, the word "protest" connotes more drastic actions than I was thinking of. I do believe that a religious institution has a right to voice their opinion about a book/movie/video game/television series, but I do not believe they have the right to dictate to anyone (congregant or otherwise) what can and can't be read.
QUOTE As for parents concerned about giving their kid's the book, I just have to say, most kids will not understand the message Pullman is trying to pull across unless they are older. If they like the book at all, it will probably be for the action and mystery, rather than the themes.
Amen to that! I am barely grasping what Pullman is getting at, and I agree that many of the subtler themes will go right over a child's head. My issue with not recommending this for my children is that I was bothered by the theme of trust. I may be weaving a bit off topic, but one of the main things I took away from this book was that Lyra can't trust anyone...not the people who raised her, not her parents, not the government, not the church; and the people you can trust won't be with you at the crucial moment. I feel that is obvious enough that my 11 year old would pick up on it, and I just don't agree with it. So, if he chose to read it, I would be glad for the opportunity to discuss this theme with him; but were it up to me I would steer him towards something else.
--------------------
Join us in Jo's Book Nook for discussion of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, starting Jan. 1. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2008, 12:07 PM
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper
Posts: 60
Joined: 6:43am April 10, 2006
Location: NJ
|
QUOTE(Snufflespup @ Mar 26 2008, 03:31 PM) QUOTE(Pyxis @ Mar 26 2008, 02:47 AM) So, are the protests justified? I would say...kind of, but no. I would not say a protest for any book is justified. I understand that you believe parents have say over what their kids do and don't read, and I, too, believe that, 100%. But when people protest -actually saying what stranger's children can and can't read, that is wrong. While we have freedom of speech, we also have freedom of the press, so boycotting a book or prohibiting people to read it (other than your own children) can not be justified, in my opinion.
I have to agree with you on this. There are in existence books with various topics, statements, themes that propagate racism, prejudices, misogyny, antisemitism, etc. which churches do not boycott or disallow their parishioners to read. It seems that churches only take a stance when the book threatens to undermine their function in society or contradict their teachings. It is hard to take their uproar seriously when there are so many other books they could protest about and they do nothing. No, they shouldn't protest anything. It is up to the parent to decide what is right for their child to read, not the government, church, or any other organization in power or deemed an authority figure.
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Mar 26 2008, 07:47 PM) Amen to that! I am barely grasping what Pullman is getting at, and I agree that many of the subtler themes will go right over a child's head. My issue with not recommending this for my children is that I was bothered by the theme of trust. I may be weaving a bit off topic, but one of the main things I took away from this book was that Lyra can't trust anyone...not the people who raised her, not her parents, not the government, not the church; and the people you can trust won't be with you at the crucial moment. I feel that is obvious enough that my 11 year old would pick up on it, and I just don't agree with it. So, if he chose to read it, I would be glad for the opportunity to discuss this theme with him; but were it up to me I would steer him towards something else.
My feelings exactly. I had to read the series a couple of times before understanding what he was really getting at. I believe a child would read this book and think of the Oblation Board as the bad guys and Lyra & co. as the good guys. Would they extract the entire message Pullman is trying to impart? It is doubtful. I don't know if they would be affected by the distrust theme, but I think that's where the parent should step in and have a discussion with the child.
--------------------
"While you are experimenting, do not remain content with the surface of things. Don't become a mere recorder of facts, but try to penetrate the mystery of their origin." Isabel Allende
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 28 2008, 07:57 PM
|
Ollivander's Apprentice
Posts: 1,457
Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007
Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song
|
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Mar 26 2008, 07:47 PM) I am barely grasping what Pullman is getting at, and I agree that many of the subtler themes will go right over a child's head. My issue with not recommending this for my children is that I was bothered by the theme of trust. I may be weaving a bit off topic, but one of the main things I took away from this book was that Lyra can't trust anyone...not the people who raised her, not her parents, not the government, not the church; and the people you can trust won't be with you at the crucial moment. I feel that is obvious enough that my 11 year old would pick up on it, and I just don't agree with it. So, if he chose to read it, I would be glad for the opportunity to discuss this theme with him; but were it up to me I would steer him towards something else.
Wonderfully said!  You nicely encapsulated one of the more dispiriting themes of the book.....namely, that there's no one or nothing in whom we can trust. I really felt for Lyra at the end of the book, discovering that the woman who would maim her soul was actually her mother and that her father, admittedly inadvertantly, would have had her die. (OK, so the "bring me a child" was not meant for her, but that was indeed how Pullman chose to work it out). Pullman's depiction of the clergy and of faith is far from flattering as well. All this is a tough read for any young child to take in. My own life experiences, most fortunately, are not like Lyra's. There are certain people in whom we can repose our trust; matters of faith are not always duplicitous; many parents do have the very best interests of their children at heart. Perhaps Pullman is a realist in many ways, yet his pov is often bleak at best. Still, his points resound and he challenges me! Pullman does make me think carefully about his message, his themes, and I'm deeply interested in finding out what happens in books 2 and 3...all of which makes him invaluable as a writer and commentator. I have to say that Pullman's writing is amazing and that he should never be shunned from the societal conversation. (*shakes head at the number of people banning Pullman without ever reading him*). Look at the incredible conversations he's made possible here...... 
This post has been edited by fidelia: Mar 28 2008, 07:59 PM
--------------------
*thanks for the awesome siggy, twiddlethosedials!* |
|
|
|
|
|
 Mar 28 2008, 08:05 PM
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie
Posts: 91
Joined: 9:37am March 5, 2008
|
QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Mar 9 2008, 06:49 PM) The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights protested The Golden Compass, both the book and the movie saying..... QUOTE "New Line Cinema and Scholastic Entertainment have paired to produce 'The Golden Compass,' a children's fantasy that is based on the first book of a trilogy by militant English atheist Philip Pullman. The trilogy, His Dark Materials, was written to promote atheism and denigrate Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism. The target audience is children and adolescents. Each book becomes progressively more aggressive in its denigration of Christianity and promotion of atheism: The Subtle Knife is more provocative than The Golden Compass and The Amber Spyglass is the most in-your-face assault on Christian sensibilities of the three volumes. Find the entire article here.The article continues with statements such as ..... QUOTE "Atheism for kids. That is what Philip Pullman sells. and QUOTE "We are fighting a deceitful stealth campaign on the part of the film's producers. Our goal is to educate Christians so that they know exactly what the film's pernicious agenda really is." From Phillip Pullman's website ... QUOTE Religion
Some of the articles and talks I've written are to do with the subject of religion, which I think is a very interesting one. The religious impulse – which includes the sense of awe and mystery we feel when we look at the universe, the urge to find a meaning and a purpose in our lives, our sense of moral kinship with other human beings – is part of being human, and I value it. I'd be a damn fool not to.
But organised religion is quite another thing. The trouble is that all too often in human history, churches and priesthoods have set themselves up to rule people's lives in the name of some invisible god (and they're all invisible, because they don't exist) – and done terrible damage. In the name of their god, they have burned, hanged, tortured, maimed, robbed, violated, and enslaved millions of their fellow-creatures, and done so with the happy conviction that they were doing the will of God, and they would go to Heaven for it.
That is the religion I hate, and I'm happy to be known as its enemy.
From time to time I have a new thought on the subject. When I come up with something worth writing down, I'll put it here. We've seen much of the same passion ignited in the Harry Potter series. Points to Ponder:* After reading this novel (which is of course the first in a trilogy) Do you see this book as a way to undermine Christianity, or does it appear to be more of a statement against organized churches? * Fantasy novels in general tend to take a large amount of anti-Christian critique, do you think this is just a curse of the genre? * Pullman states an opposition to organized religion. In what ways do you see that reflected in this novel? *Comparing GC/NL to the Harry Potter series, do you see any instances where Rowling might have been expressing her political/religious feelings in her writing? Please remember our be nice rule when responding to this topic. I know this topic can be a hotly debated one, but I'd like to think that mature people can agree to disagree without being rude. If you don't think you can post in this topic without passing our "be nice" rule, then please consider not posting.
This is just another place magical fantasy lovers have to roll with the punches that the closed minded throw at us. There will always be protests by these narrowminded people, and there is nothing we can do about it. Ignoring those who would try to ban what we love is all we can really do. Who cares as long as speech is still free and writers can publish what we like. Keep writing, keep reading, all the things you love about fantasy and forget these scandalized people that make no progress in there stand against good books.    
|
|
|
|
  Similar Topics
 Similar Topics
|
