| 1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users) |
|
Lyra Belacqua, Character study and comparison with Harry Potter |
|
|
|
 Mar 15 2008, 05:53 PM
|
A 'Sirius' Veil Whisperer
Posts: 6,358
Joined: 5:31pm August 30, 2006
Location: Siriusly Dreaming Somewhere
|
Lyra Belacqua
Just as Harry Potter is brought up without his parents in a world where he doesn't really belong, Lyra Belacqua is a child also brought up without parents in Jordan College of Oxford University in a universe parallel to our own. Her name means lyre which, according to mythology, is a musical instrument invented by Hermes and later used by Orpheus, see here for the full story, but it also has a phonetic similarity to the word "liar" which fits Lyra's character very well.
At the beginning of the book Lyra is described as a "barbarian", a "half-wild cat", a "coarse and greedy little savage" who spends a lot of her time "clambering over the College roofs", "stealing apples from the market" and either "waging war" against the children of other colleges or joining with them to go "into battle against the townies" and, in turn, teams up with all of them to fight the children of the claybeds. When Lord Asriel visits, Lyra has to be "caught by the most agile Scholar and brought to the Housekeeper to be washed and dressed in a clean frock". She has little respect for people or property, fully intending to sink the Costa's barge and, despite Roger and Pantalaimon's disquiet, plays jokes on the dead scholars by moving around the coins in their skulls, although suffers from terrible nightmares as a consequence.
The Master admits that, although they've taught her some things its not been done "well or systematically" and in her early years, although the Intercessor, Father Heyst, had taken an interest in Lyra's "spiritual welfare, only to be confounded by her sly indifference and insincere repentances", he had felt that she was not "spiritually promising" and seems to have given up but does seem to be genuinely concerned for her welfare and happiness.
There are some clear parallels between the characters of Lyra Belacquea and Harry Potter: they have both lost their parents very early in life and don't really remember them. They're both brave and determined characters who aren't afraid to face danger to rescue their friends and they both progress from being completely unaware of a world other than the one in which they grew up and then discover there there is so much more out there - for Harry its the wizarding world with a battle against Lord Voldemort and the dark arts, for Lyra its the world of Dust and the fight to eliminate it where she has to decide which side is the right side.
- How do you think Harry and Lyra's early childhood compares?
- Both characters are seen as leaders in a fight, they're also seen as a saviour in their respective worlds - Harry as the "chosen one", Lyra as one who has a "great destiny" without whom they will all die - how do you think they compare in these roles?
- Do you see any similarities between Lyra and Harry's "hero's journeys", bearing in mind that we are only seeing the beginning of Lyra's journey here?
- Why does Lyra tell so many lies and is there any significance between her lies and her ability to use the alethiometer, a mechanism for finding the truth?
- How do Lyra's lies change throughout the book?
- What do you think of Iorek renaming Lyra as "Lyra Silvertongue"
- What do you think of the first animalistic descriptions of Lyra and what changes do you see in her?
- Why did Father Heyst apparently give upon Lyra's "spiritual welfare" so easily and would her story have been different if she had been more "spiritually promising"?
- How much of Lyra's determination to go to the North is influenced by Roger's disappearance and how much by her curiosity and yearning for adventure, how do you think determination compares with Harry's determination to defeat Voldemort?
This post has been edited by Dreamteam: Mar 19 2008, 08:30 AM
--------------------
Jo's Book Nook is now reading Sense and Sensibility - just click on the image "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" |
|
|
|
|
Mar 25 2008, 06:08 AM
|
Fortescue's Spoon Polisher
Posts: 3,624
Joined: 6:04pm November 6, 2005
|
I haven't read Northern Lights for a few months (am going to start on it today), so this isn't going to be a detailed post - sorry!
I didn't have a problem with Lyra's lying - she is very young and it was mostly innocent lies; boasting to friends or lies to get her out of a sticky situation. I don't think she's malicious in her lying, or ever meant to be. A lot of her lies are just story-telling, and using her imagination. She does realise that there are some things that are too important to lie about, and some people she can't lie to - such as John Faa and Farder Coram.
She does learn her lesson about lying in The Amber Spyglass (and some smaller lessons on lying earlier - mostly from Will), though, and matures a lot because of it.
Both Lyra and Harry are orphans, but, in contrast to Harry, Lyra really doesn't have anyone to instil values on her - she had no schooling, nobody to set her boundaries or rules, therefore nobody to learn from. Harry at least had his teachers, and also his Aunt and Uncle, to teach him how to behave and treat others (though he learned mostly how not to treat others from the Dursleys). Lyra really had nobody who was dedicated to teaching her anything - the scholars seem to have given up on teaching her very easily - and she had nobody to teach her life's values and morals, and right from wrong.
As for the animalistic descriptions of Lyra - she's like a street urchin, with nobody to care for her needs. She was only ever forced to wash for special occasions, and very roughly at that. It's natural that she should try and evade doing something that seems to be a punishment, rather than a necessity. She's left mostly to her own devices, much as Harry is, but, unlike Harry, she finds solace in playing with friends and not only being one of the gang, but being one of the leaders. Lyra's also very boisterous, and much like a boy, with regards to the way she joins and encourages fights. Her best friend is a boy, so it's natural that she should enjoy the same things as Roger (and also being around mainly men and their conversation/things probably has something to do with it), and with her leadership personality she is the one that instigates and encourages most of their exploits.
Then there is the drastic change where she's always clean and lady-like with Mrs Coulter, and she seems to enjoy all the dressing up and shopping/lunches etc. - though I do think that she sees it much like a game, and she eventually tires of that life.
We do see her calm down a little under Ma Costa's care, but I don't think she ever really changes and grows out of being a tom-boy (as seen when she first meets Will - the state on her physically, and the way she fights him - and also from further examples throughout the series). She does, eventually, learn how to take care of herself hygienically, I'm glad to note 
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 25 2008, 07:28 AM
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper
Posts: 60
Joined: 6:43am April 10, 2006
Location: NJ
|
Just a few things.
I agree with L.J that Lyra had no one to rear her. Harry's compassion, I think, comes from the abuse he receives at the hands of others and his desire not to be anything like the Dursleys. He could easily have become a mean person, but he doesn't, which I also think has something to do with his personality. Whereas Harry was abused into submission and was the victim, Lyra was free and to an extent, the aggressor. Two very different experiences which helped define their characters.
Lyra's major redeeming quality in NL is her loyalty and willingness to risk danger to save her friends. The risk taking may just be a result of her youth as no child/teenager thinks of him or herself in terms of mortality, but the loyalty was unwavering. We definitively see that through all three books. We also see this quality and behavior in Harry.
I think the major difference in the type of heroes they are is that Harry knows he is the chosen one, but is still reluctant to become a leader. Yet, Lyra not knowing her role steps into the role without trepidation. I don't think she thought she was a leader, but being a strong-willed person, used to leading her group of friends, made it easier for her to do what she had to and shape events around her. For example the whole Iorek affair, she manipulated the situation all on her own. Did she tell herself she was being a hero, I don't think so, but she knew she had the power to do something. In the beginning it always took some convincing to get Harry to step into the role, except when his curiosity put him in an avoidable situation or when there was a threat to his friends. It's not until much later that he finally accepts he has a part to play. I think neither of them thought themselves as heroes. They were simply trying to save their loved ones.
Like L.J said, Lyra's lying was innocent. She knows when not to do it. In part, I believe, it was escapism. She wasn't really loved so she settled for admiration from her peers. She lied to get attention because that was the only attention she could get. In a college full of older men who ignored her unless she was in trouble or in their way there was not much she could do. Had she not constructed these stories she would have been a wallflower, quiet and demure, with no one taking notice.
Her lying also helped her assimilate into her surroundings. She fit right in with Coulter, at least in apperance. She was great with the Gyptians, Iorek, and all the others she encountered in the other books. Would she have been able to do so had the worlds/scenarios she created for herself not existed? I don't believe so. Another reason why I am glad father Heyst gave up on her. I think it would have stifled her creativity, her passion for live, and her innocence. She would have become full of concern for doing what was right and wrong for fear of punishment in the afterlife. She would have held all the prejudices the church, in the book, does. Her lying saved her more than once and the church would have stamped that out.
I do think that her lying and reading the alethiometer are correlated. Because she can lie and fabricate her own world, she can see the impossible in the alethiometer. She's open to the ideas floating into her head and she will not dismiss them as being ridiculous like most adults around her would. Her lying improved her imagination, which in turn made it easier for her to see a symbol and be able to associate it with a meaning.
Lyra begins to loose her innocence in NL. She begins to learn that there is betrayal, murder, fear, and many other horrendous things a child should not know. She also begins to feel guilt and a need to right what she has wronged. Valid or not, these emotions begin to change her into a more mature person. She doesn't loose herself, but she begins to fear, which I don't think she had before. Her lying is now part of survival, not boasting. This is not to say that the barbarian title no longer applies. She still has plenty of that left.
Can't wait to read what everyone else has to say.
--------------------
"While you are experimenting, do not remain content with the surface of things. Don't become a mere recorder of facts, but try to penetrate the mystery of their origin." Isabel Allende
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 25 2008, 10:42 AM
|
Fortescue's Spoon Polisher
Posts: 3,624
Joined: 6:04pm November 6, 2005
|
QUOTE(Heidy @ Mar 25 2008, 12:28 PM)  Just a few things.
I agree with L.J that Lyra had no one to rear her. Harry's compassion, I think, comes from the abuse he receives at the hands of others and his desire not to be anything like the Dursleys. He could easily have become a mean person, but he doesn't, which I also think has something to do with his personality. Whereas Harry was abused into submission and was the victim, Lyra was free and to an extent, the aggressor. Two very different experiences which helped define their characters.
Lyra's major redeeming quality in NL is her loyalty and willingness to risk danger to save her friends. The risk taking may just be a result of her youth as no child/teenager thinks of him or herself in terms of mortality, but the loyalty was unwavering. We definitively see that through all three books. We also see this quality and behavior in Harry.
It's really interesting to see these two characters have very different upbringings, yet have similar qualities. They both have compassion for others - Harry shows this in many ways, including how he feels for Neville and Ron's situations. Lyra shows this with how she treats Tony Makarios (is that the right name? I'm not at home, so can't check my book). She doesn't shun him for having his dæmon cut, as many others would have, but comforts him. Both Harry and Lyra are very loyal and fiercely protective of their friends, and risk themselves to save them. They're also very brave, and, at times, incredibly stupid 
QUOTE(Heidy) I think the major difference in the type of heroes they are is that Harry knows he is the chosen one, but is still reluctant to become a leader. Yet, Lyra not knowing her role steps into the role without trepidation. I don't think she thought she was a leader, but being a strong-willed person, used to leading her group of friends, made it easier for her to do what she had to and shape events around her. For example the whole Iorek affair, she manipulated the situation all on her own. Did she tell herself she was being a hero, I don't think so, but she knew she had the power to do something. In the beginning it always took some convincing to get Harry to step into the role, except when his curiosity put him in an avoidable situation or when there was a threat to his friends. It's not until much later that he finally accepts he has a part to play. I think neither of them thought themselves as heroes. They were simply trying to save their loved ones.
I think not knowing that she's supposed to be the "hero" really helps Lyra to accomplish what she does. If she had known, she, like Harry, may have tried fighting against her destiny. She may also have tried doing the wrong thing, instead of just letting things take their course. Her main objectives in NL/GC is saving Roger and taking the alethiometer to Lord Asriel. If she had known that she was meant to have the alethiometer all along then she may not have gone to Lord Asriel, and taken Roger with her, and the bridge between the two worlds wouldn't have been created. It's her ignorance that helps her in many situations.
Harry finds it difficult to come to terms with having to be the chosen one, so struggles with this and tries to fight against it. Yet, it is when he doesn't realise he is being a hero, or doesn't have time to think and plan things out, that he performs to the best of his ability.
QUOTE(Heidy) I do think that her lying and reading the alethiometer are correlated. Because she can lie and fabricate her own world, she can see the impossible in the alethiometer. She's open to the ideas floating into her head and she will not dismiss them as being ridiculous like most adults around her would. Her lying improved her imagination, which in turn made it easier for her to see a symbol and be able to associate it with a meaning.
I agree with you here - her imagination let her be open to all the different meanings of each symbol, and not try and apply a specific meaning, but to let the meaning come to her naturally. As you said, an adult may not have been as open, and may have dismissed some of the answers as ridiculous. If she had had a closed mind, she may not have been able to apply the more obscure meanings to some of the symbols, because some of them are quite far off what you would usually associate with a particular symbol.
QUOTE(Heidy) Lyra begins to loose her innocence in NL. She begins to learn that there is betrayal, murder, fear, and many other horrendous things a child should not know. She also begins to feel guilt and a need to right what she has wronged. Valid or not, these emotions begin to change her into a more mature person. She doesn't loose herself, but she begins to fear, which I don't think she had before. Her lying is now part of survival, not boasting. This is not to say that the barbarian title no longer applies. She still has plenty of that left.
I agree with this assessment. This is quite similar to Harry, as he also learns about betrayal, murder, fear etc. in PS/SS, as well as later books.
This post has been edited by L.J: Mar 25 2008, 10:46 AM
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 25 2008, 11:53 AM
|
Loyal Lockhart Fan
Posts: 3,973
Joined: 10:42am February 15, 2005
Location: Embracing my Inner Slytherin
|
QUOTE(L.J @ Mar 25 2008, 12:08 PM) I didn't have a problem with Lyra's lying - she is very young and it was mostly innocent lies; boasting to friends or lies to get her out of a sticky situation. I don't think she's malicious in her lying, or ever meant to be. A lot of her lies are just story-telling, and using her imagination. She does realise that there are some things that are too important to lie about, and some people she can't lie to - such as John Faa and Farder Coram. I agree with you L.J, and I'm quoting to point out something in the book that really jarred with me. At the beginning of Chapter 15 it clearly says that Lyra is a child without imagination.  Huh? I see Lyra as very imaginative child and can't make sense of that description. It says "Being a practiced liar doesn't mean you have a powerful imagination. Many good liars have no imagination at all; it's that which gives their lies such wide-eyed conviction." Now I can understand what that means, but I don't see that it applies to Lyra. How on earth would she have come up with the plan to trick Iofor Raknison without a good imagination? Maybe he means that her plans are short-sighted, that she doesn't think too far ahead, just about practical solutions. That may be true but I still think imagination has a good deal to do with it.
QUOTE(Heidy @ Mar 25 2008, 01:28 PM) I do think that her lying and reading the alethiometer are correlated. Because she can lie and fabricate her own world, she can see the impossible in the alethiometer. She's open to the ideas floating into her head and she will not dismiss them as being ridiculous like most adults around her would. Her lying improved her imagination, which in turn made it easier for her to see a symbol and be able to associate it with a meaning.
QUOTE(L.J @ Mar 25 2008, 04:42 PM) I agree with you here - her imagination let her be open to all the different meanings of each symbol, and not try and apply a specific meaning, but to let the meaning come to her naturally. As you said, an adult may not have been as open, and may have dismissed some of the answers as ridiculous. If she had had a closed mind, she may not have been able to apply the more obscure meanings to some of the symbols, because some of them are quite far off what you would usually associate with a particular symbol.
I agree with these two points as well. Lyra's innocent and open mind are most likely what allows her to read the alethiometer - she is open to knew possibilities - it's when she tries to apply knowledge she already has or makes assumptions that she misinterprets it. That's why I can't understand that description of her as unimaginative!
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 25 2008, 01:06 PM
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper
Posts: 60
Joined: 6:43am April 10, 2006
Location: NJ
|
L.J,
You are right about the spelling and yes, their compassion is something else they share. What I find interesting and indicative of how different they are from their upbringing is that they can still care for others when no one has ever shown them how. The staff at Jordan College may have been kind to Lyra, but do you think they stressed or taught her compassion, sympathy, empathy? I don't believe they did. We know for sure that Harry wasn't taught any of that. Is this nature vs. nurture? Or just the underdog Harry, refusing to take the easy way out if it meant becoming like his oppressors (example: not befriending Malfoy when he offered). Or in Lyra's case bestowing caring, love, acceptance wherever she could for lack of a real family?
Perenelle,
I disagreed with that quote the first time I read it. I think you said it better, "Maybe he means that her plans are short-sighted, that she doesn't think too far ahead, just about practical solutions."
Also, "she is open to knew possibilities - it's when she tries to apply knowledge she already has or makes assumptions that she misinterprets it." is an excellent, concise way to understand the relationship between Lyra and the Alethiometer.
--------------------
"While you are experimenting, do not remain content with the surface of things. Don't become a mere recorder of facts, but try to penetrate the mystery of their origin." Isabel Allende
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 01:58 AM
|
Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit
Posts: 2,463
Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007
|
Wow, there are some really great thoughts in here. I have enjoyed reading your insights, and you all make very good points.
I have a hard time empathizing with Lyra, though. I have seen most of her motivations as very selfish, and that is what makes her so different from Harry. I think she tells herself that she wants to save Roger, but I believe it is the pull of the North that is stronger. I am inclined to agree that her lies are part of her childish nature, but she seems to enjoy them so much, and I interpret that as enjoying the power that she has over others when she withholds the truth from them. Hmm, perhaps selfish isn't the right word, because she does have selfless moments (I am typing as I am thinking, can you tell? ), but something about her character leaves me feeling very indifferent towards her. I'm going to have to give this some more thought.... 
--------------------
Join us in Jo's Book Nook for discussion of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, starting Jan. 1. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 12:15 PM
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup
Posts: 36
Joined: 8:21am December 24, 2007
|
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Mar 26 2008, 07:58 AM) Wow, there are some really great thoughts in here. I have enjoyed reading your insights, and you all make very good points. I have a hard time empathizing with Lyra, though. I have seen most of her motivations as very selfish, and that is what makes her so different from Harry. I think she tells herself that she wants to save Roger, but I believe it is the pull of the North that is stronger. I am inclined to agree that her lies are part of her childish nature, but she seems to enjoy them so much, and I interpret that as enjoying the power that she has over others when she withholds the truth from them. Hmm, perhaps selfish isn't the right word, because she does have selfless moments (I am typing as I am thinking, can you tell? ), but something about her character leaves me feeling very indifferent towards her. I'm going to have to give this some more thought....
I also really enjoy this discussion - so Thank you everyone!
I think we have some of the same feelings about Lyra, Pyxis. I sometimes have a hard time understanding what she is doing is because of compassion and love for others, or if it is just becuase of her sense of adventure and "the pull of the North", as you describe it. However, her reaction to Tony Makarios makes me think otherwise, but I'm not fully convinced... I really like how her reaction to Tony is described in the books though - "In Lyra's heart, revulsion struggled with compassion, and compassion won."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 04:49 PM
|
Fortescue's Spoon Polisher
Posts: 3,624
Joined: 6:04pm November 6, 2005
|
QUOTE(AstridB @ Mar 26 2008, 05:15 PM) QUOTE(Pyxis @ Mar 26 2008, 07:58 AM) Wow, there are some really great thoughts in here. I have enjoyed reading your insights, and you all make very good points. I have a hard time empathizing with Lyra, though. I have seen most of her motivations as very selfish, and that is what makes her so different from Harry. I think she tells herself that she wants to save Roger, but I believe it is the pull of the North that is stronger. I am inclined to agree that her lies are part of her childish nature, but she seems to enjoy them so much, and I interpret that as enjoying the power that she has over others when she withholds the truth from them. Hmm, perhaps selfish isn't the right word, because she does have selfless moments (I am typing as I am thinking, can you tell? ), but something about her character leaves me feeling very indifferent towards her. I'm going to have to give this some more thought.... I also really enjoy this discussion - so Thank you everyone! I think we have some of the same feelings about Lyra, Pyxis. I sometimes have a hard time understanding what she is doing is because of compassion and love for others, or if it is just becuase of her sense of adventure and "the pull of the North", as you describe it. However, her reaction to Tony Makarios makes me think otherwise, but I'm not fully convinced... I really like how her reaction to Tony is described in the books though - "In Lyra's heart, revulsion struggled with compassion, and compassion won."
Hmm, I think that the pull of the North may have had something to do with Lyra's conviction to save Roger, but I do think that if she had found out he was somewhere else, she would have tried to save him anyway - I think that her friendship and love for Roger would have overcome her desire to see the North, if she had had to choose.
I find it interesting reading your thoughts about Lyra, Pyxis because, if I remember correctly, you have only read Northern Lights (and you too AstridB)? It would be great to be able to comment on Lyra just within the scope of Northern Lights, but that's hard to do now I've read the rest of the series! I think that's the reason we feel so differently about Lyra, because I (and others) have read the rest of the series, therefore seen how Lyra grows throughout the books and understand her character better. When I first read Northern Lights 10 years ago, The Subtle Knife had been released shortly before, so I read it right after - so I didn't have time to pause and reflect on Lyra just from reading Northern Lights. It will be great to see if your feelings change after reading The Subtle Knife, and then The Amber Spyglass!
ETA: Just to clarify, I don't mean that those who have read all of the series understand Lyra's character better than those who haven't - just that I, personally, understand her character better than I would have if I had just read Northern Lights.
This post has been edited by L.J: Mar 26 2008, 04:54 PM
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 05:29 PM
|
Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit
Posts: 2,463
Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007
|
QUOTE(L.J @ Mar 26 2008, 03:49 PM) I find it interesting reading your thoughts about Lyra, Pyxis because, if I remember correctly, you have only read Northern Lights (and you too AstridB)? It would be great to be able to comment on Lyra just within the scope of Northern Lights, but that's hard to do now I've read the rest of the series! I think that's the reason we feel so differently about Lyra, because I (and others) have read the rest of the series, therefore seen how Lyra grows throughout the books and understand her character better. When I first read Northern Lights 10 years ago, The Subtle Knife had been released shortly before, so I read it right after - so I didn't have time to pause and reflect on Lyra just from reading Northern Lights. It will be great to see if your feelings change after reading The Subtle Knife, and then The Amber Spyglass!
ETA: Just to clarify, I don't mean that those who have read all of the series understand Lyra's character better than those who haven't - just that I, personally, understand her character better than I would have if I had just read Northern Lights.
It is very odd to singly evaluate a book that is part of a trilogy, and a very "connected" trilogy at that. At first I thought my indifference towards Lyra was a result of Pullman's writing style, that he as an author and I as a reader were not compatible (for lack of a better word). I am about 2/3 of the way through Spyglass, though, and I don't think it is writing style that is to blame, because I do feel drawn to some of the other characters introduced later. For now I conclude that it is my own filter that makes me dislike Lyra. She exhibits qualities that I personally find unappealing in real life, so I will be very interested to see if my feelings toward her change..believe me, I am keeping an open mind and some of the discussion in this thread has been very helpful.
I am, for instance, fascinated with how her childhood has shaped who she is. With Harry, his time with the Dursley's, horrible as it was, made him a stronger person. I think it gave him his "saving people" complex, and his compassion for others. As AstridB pointed out, Lyra does have the capability of being a very compassionate person, how did she learn this? Most children are not this compassionate, and she had no opportunity (that I can think of) to explore this emotion before her experience with Tony.
--------------------
Join us in Jo's Book Nook for discussion of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, starting Jan. 1. |
|
|
|
|
