| 1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users) |
|
Which witches? How are they portrayed?, Witches in His Dark Materials & Harry Potter |
|
|
|
 Mar 15 2008, 08:54 PM
|
Madame Pince's House Elf
Posts: 4,111
Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005
Location: Telephone box, Wagga Wagga
|
WITCHES
Traditionally witches have been displayed as evil, ugly and damned creatures, riding broomsticks who practised magic and were to be burned at the stake. Witch burnings alluded to at the beginning of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban were real events, all the more horrifying as those who were so held guilty were most unlikely to have been able to perform any sort of magic. Their main offence was to fall foul of the society they lived in, most notably those ecclesiastical authorities of the time, who wanted to control what people thought and believed. A huge number of victims who were burned in such a manner were women, though men were included. This identification of witchery and magic with predominantly women could be explained not only by male authorities keeping women subservient, but also in part to societal pressure to control the practice of midwifery.
By the last century some of this characterisation had broken down, thanks to plays like Arthur Miller's 'The Crucible' or TV programs like Bewitched. The recently completed Harry Potter series depicts witches as the wives, daughters, mothers, sisters, friends and foes of wizards. This is a community apart in which the ability to do magic successfully depends on genetic makeup and its control and effectiveness depends on education and training. Being a witch, a wizard, a muggle or a squib is not necessarily a matter of choice. But in that community how one uses this magical ability and training to do good or evil definitely is a matter of individual choice and personality.
The parallel world of Phillip Pullman's Oxford also depicts witches. The most prominent witch in his story is Serafina Pekkala, always a friend to Lyra Belacqua. Witches in the Golden Compass might be good or evil, much as they could be in the Harry Potter series. But they are portrayed in a completely different way. For example, Golden Compass/Northern Lights witches seem to have less problems with appropriate dress. It seems these witches do not have male equivalents, or do they? And how do these witches relate to the General Oblation Board and other ecclesiastical figures of the book?
Yes they do ride broomsticks. But unlike the racing brooms of Harry Potter, are they fully developed or merely branches from a particular kind of tree? How does the use of different woods compare to that in the Harry Potter books?
What sort of magic do the Witches perform in Golden Compass/Northern Lights? What do they achieve with it? How is it different from the magic performed in the Harry Potter world and how similar?
Which group of witches is closer to what you know about Society's traditional view of witches?
What do we learn about Golden compass/Northern Lights witches and their daemons which is different from how other characters relate to their own daemons? How is this difference important to the choice of the witches to aid Lyra Belacqua in opposing the intercission experiments conducted at Bolvangar?
What do you think of Serafina Pekkala in particular, and her role in the story?
This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Mar 15 2008, 10:43 PM
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 04:46 AM
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer
Posts: 113
Joined: 11:58pm April 21, 2007
Location: Haunting werewolves
|
QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Mar 15 2008, 08:54 PM)  Their main offence was to fall foul of the society they lived in, most notably those ecclesiastical authorities of the time, who wanted to control what people thought and believed. A huge number of victims who were burned in such a manner were women, though men were included. This identification of witchery and magic with predominantly women could be explained not only by male authorities keeping women subservient, but also in part to societal pressure to control the practice of midwifery.
Yes, Mum, I believe you.  I can see what you mean about witches, but not in today's society. Today we are all more freethinking and tolerant, aren't we?
QUOTE Which group of witches is closer to what you know about Society's traditional view of witches?
I really can't choose comfortably. JKR's version cling to their own society, shutting out interlopers. Pullman's version are set against the religious Oblation Board. Both are a reaction against the status quo. But I think Pullman's attitude are a mite more aggressive.
QUOTE What do we learn about Golden compass/Northern Lights witches and their daemons which is different from how other characters relate to their own daemons? How is this difference important to the choice of the witches to aid Lyra Belacqua in opposing the intercission experiments conducted at Bolvangar?
Well that one is easy. The witches can separate themselves from their daemons for a bit longer than humans can. That would have to be an advantage. The trouble is with close relationships between humans and daemons is that how well do the humans deal with not having daemons around?
--------------------
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 4 2008, 07:48 PM
|
Ollivander's Apprentice
Posts: 1,457
Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007
Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song
|
QUOTE Which group of witches is closer to what you know about Society's traditional view of witches?
I find the witches in TGC to be more "traditional" in that they have run afoul of authority (the Oblation Board). They are the outsiders who, powerless within the society created by the OB, create their own in which they can make their own rules, develop alternate power structures, relationships, etc.
These witches in TGC are very different, I find, from the HP witches. The witches and wizards in HP were just like the rest of us - except they got that letter to Hogwarts at age 11. JKR gave us all the feeling that anyone could be a witch - you just needed that gene! (And I'd like to add that I know a few kids who were secretly hoping to get that letter!) There are so many points of commonality between the reader and the wizards and witches JKR created. Pullman's witches, however, seem to be a different species altogether from humans. They appear young and beautiful yet are actually ancient. They apparently have different physical tolerances (ie, imperviousness to cold, yearning to feel starlight on bare skin in sub-zero temperatures, etc). And, of course, they have daemons, which renders them quite different from the reader. These witches are coldly fascinating. While Pullman writes that they hold councils, argue, debate, etc, there is a sense that these witches are quite a bit removed from the human experience.
Serafina Pekkala was by far my favorite witch. She had great qualities - openness to new experiences, courage, compassion. I hope she'll be a strong presence in all 3 books!
This post has been edited by fidelia: Apr 4 2008, 07:49 PM
--------------------
*thanks for the awesome siggy, twiddlethosedials!* |
|
|
|
|
|
Apr 10 2008, 11:57 AM
|
Rudius Hagrid's SmartCookie - With Ninja!Brain Power
Posts: 2,441
Joined: 1:26am September 30, 2006
Location: The Matrix, Imladris, Baker Street 221 B - all the places I want to be are in my head
|
QUOTE(fidelia @ Apr 4 2008, 07:48 PM) These witches in TGC are very different, I find, from the HP witches. The witches and wizards in HP were just like the rest of us - except they got that letter to Hogwarts at age 11. JKR gave us all the feeling that anyone could be a witch - you just needed that gene! (And I'd like to add that I know a few kids who were secretly hoping to get that letter!) There are so many points of commonality between the reader and the wizards and witches JKR created. Pullman's witches, however, seem to be a different species altogether from humans. They appear young and beautiful yet are actually ancient. They apparently have different physical tolerances (ie, imperviousness to cold, yearning to feel starlight on bare skin in sub-zero temperatures, etc). And, of course, they have daemons, which renders them quite different from the reader. These witches are coldly fascinating. While Pullman writes that they hold councils, argue, debate, etc, there is a sense that these witches are quite a bit removed from the human experience. You said most of the things that were on my mind, as well. I actually find Pullman's witches witch-ier (in that traditional witchy-sense - if you know what I mean) than HP witches and wizards. I mean, the best part their magic seem to be in them and they don't seem to do a lot of magic, whereas in HP wizards and witches are about doing magic. In HP, wizards and witches train to do magic, they do their housework and fight by magical means, and all that. NL witches actually use bows to fight and I can't remember seeing too many examples of them actually doing spells in the book, apart from the bit when Serafina's daemon helps Lyra to set free those cut-away daemons and when Serafina mentions sending spells and herbs (or something) when Farther Coram (spelling?) was injured by that poisonous arrow (was it an arrow? - sorry, can't really remember), their magic is in that they don't mind cold, can feel the Northern Lights and all that. I like that they're portrayed as beautiful, young women, because that's against that old, coming-from-middle-ages image of old, ugly, vicious witches - it makes them seem even more magical.
Now, about something that's probably my favourite thing about NL witches - flying and cloudpine (love that name!). If I remember correctly (having read the book only once), Serafina Pekkala says at some point that a witch would sooner stop breathing than flying (a side note: when I read that I immediately thought of Harry and how he feels best in the air). Which I find really cool  for some reason. I also like that all they use branches of cloudpine to fly - they just have to break a branch and fly away. They seem to be free of many things that people can't be free of. However, it seems that witches are also involved in rather complicated politics and such, which I don't really get, because they seem to be so detached to me. However, despite that I actually see the witches as... erm... personifications of free spirit, or something. Their daemons being able to go so far away from them would seem to fit in here, too - even a witch's spirit is free from her.
However, I don't think that all that freedom is always for good. It was a particularly sad passage to me when Serafina tells her and Farther Coram's story and how eventually a witch's heart must break with grief of losing lovers and sons, because the latter are human and can't live that long. I mean, they sure are free of most of 'human' stuff, but it seems that they aren't really free of love (at least, Serafina Pekkala seems so).
I also like that a branch of cloudpine which a witch has flung can be used to call that particular witch. I wonder, though, how that'd work.
--------------------
Avatar and siggy pics from geeky_graphics, coffee_mill and annaxbanana @ LJ. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
May 25 2008, 12:55 PM
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie
Posts: 90
Joined: 11:40am April 20, 2008
|
I view witches in the two series as completely different classes of people/beings that just happen to share a name. Witches and wizards in HP are essentially humans who, due to extraordinary abilities, have developed an alternate technology. Witches in His Dark Materials I view as having a more spiritually-based power, more like our "traditional" view of witches. Both groups, I think, we must consider human since they can interbreed with their non-magic counterparts (didn't Serafina have a child by what's-his-face?) Even when I consider their self-enforced estrangement from the Muggle-world, I still consider HP witches and wizards to be remarkably like their non-magic counterparts. It's just that little detail of being able to perform magic that sets them apart. Dark Material witches I see as a race apart from men with a completely different set of perspectives and values, but perhaps this is because, their being only a small part of a very large story, we don't get nearly as much insight into their culture and worldview as we do in the HP series, where witches and wizards make up the culture that dominates the story.
Oh, dear, was that a sentence? I apologize...
--------------------
|
|
|
|
|
|
May 26 2008, 06:41 AM
|
Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron
Posts: 439
Joined: 6:25am December 9, 2007
Location: Canada
|
"What does intrigue me however is that only females can be witches whereas males born unto a witch mother is inheritantly born a muggle. I wonder if this is the case at Beauxbatons?"
Don't be fooled by movie inacuracies, Neville Fan. (Big Grin) Both witches and wizards attend Beauxbatons. It is a school for all French magical children.
"they saw a gigantic, powder-blue, horse-drawn carriage, the size of a large house, soaring towards them, pulled through the air by a dozen winged horses, all palominos, and each the size of an elephant. ... A boy in pale blue robes jumped down from the carriage, bent forwards, fumbled for a moment with something on the carriage floor and unfolded a set of golden steps." (GoF, Chapter 15)
"Parvati sat down on Harry's other side, crossed her arms and legs too, and within minutes, was asked to dance by a boy from Beauxbatons. ... 'Are you going to ask me to dance at all?' Padma asked. 'No,' said Ron. 'Fine,' snapped Padma, and she got up and went to join Parvati and the Beauxbatons boy, who conjoured up one of his friends to join them so fast that Harry could have sworn he had zoomed him there by a Summoning Charm." (GoF, Chapter 23)
"Parvati had been very cool towards Harry since the ball. ... She was certainly telling anybody who would listen that she had made arrangements to meet the boy from Beauxbatons in Hogsmeade on the next weekend trip." (GoF, Chapter 24)
Laura
i support jkr
This post has been edited by Laura W: May 26 2008, 06:51 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
May 26 2008, 10:03 AM
|
Ollivander's Phoenix Feather Plucker
Posts: 4,112
Joined: 9:37am January 29, 2005
Location: In Ammoro, where the hearts are pure, and filled with love
|
I think the main difference and why they seem so outlandish and other worldy is that in Harry Potter the story is told from the point of view of the wizard, whos female equivalent is obviously a witch, so they are the primary characters.However, had the story been told from say, Dobbys story, hermione or ginny might have seemed different altogether. In His Dark materials the story is told mainly through lyra, who is not a witch, and thefore the witches seemed so different from her. However there are hugee differences in the activities of mannerisms and cultural things between witches in harry potter and his dark materials. Harry Potter they are every day people who happe to have magical abilities, where as the witches in his dark materials sort of live away from the rest of society. I think it would be fair to say that in the past witches in Harry Potter might have lived like those in his dark materials, during the witch burning era especially so as to hide away from witch hunters.
--------------------
of course it is happening inside your head Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
I am Hans. Proud CoC staff member. I SUPPORT JO ROWLING. No Day But Today.Harry Potter does not bow down to Edward Cullen
|
|
|
|
  Similar Topics
 Similar Topics
|
Sorting is now open for our Prisoner of Azkaban reading groups! Click here to sort!
Shopping at The Cauldron Shop supports this forum!
|
