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Poll : The Sorting Hat: A Magical Enigma, What is your opinion ? |
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 Mar 28 2008, 10:03 AM
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Neville is Simply Purrrfect
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The role of the Sorting Hat in the HP series plays a significant role in that it sorts the students of Hogwarts into four respective houses; which will be their house for their seven year tenure.
However, my question to you is; is the Hat infallible? Is it always right on when sorting? Or does the Hat from time to time see an inner quality in an 11 year old student that prevails as a child; but as a student becomes older and enters adulthood; these qualities don't hold true anymore.
Does the Sorting Hat allow students to choose which House they want to be in; no matter what qualities the student possesses or wants to possess?
Also, does the Sorting Hat create unnecessary bias; from the students as well as the teachers? Are the heads of house more partial to the students of their own house and either ignore, or treat students from other houses more impartially?
Do you think students should be allowed to change their house at a later time during their school years.
So, what is your opinion?:
1. The Sorting Hat is always right and is infallible; all of the students are sorted accordingly without fail.
2. The Sorting Hat is not always right and not always on the mark; the Hat from time to time doesn't take certain facets of a students's inner being and personality and chooses the one which it thinks predominates.
3. The Sorting Hat takes into consideration a students' choice.
4. The Sorting Hat is completely wrong and Hogwarts should do away with the sorting and retire the hat and keep it as an old relic.
5. Other: If you have any other ideas please share and post them in your comments. 
This post has been edited by rowena r: Mar 28 2008, 10:21 AM
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Mar 28 2008, 12:10 PM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
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Ooh fascinating poll thank you
So I voted The Sorting Hat is not always right but I was really torn between choosing that and The Sorting Hat takes into consideration a students' choice.
We dont really see the workings of the Sorting Hat, but to me it seems that for the most part it goes ahead (no pun intended lol) and makes its decision based on what it detects in the student. Like with Draco it barely touches his head before putting him in Slytherin. I dont think a student can request a House but in Harry's case he's so determined *not* to be in Slytherin that the Hat puts him in what it considers the next most appropriate House.
We know that all four Founders put a part of themselfs into the Hat (although we dont know where it keeps its brains, so should we trust it lol) so in theory it should be unbiased but, by sorting a student into a House it creates a bias because from Day One at Hogwarts a student is labeled *brave* or *cunning* or *evil*, even though these are stereotypes and not necessarily true of the individual.
Also, maybe DD was right about sorting too soon. Maybe all first years should be in a First Year House, even if only for the first semester because they would be together without the barriers put up between them of House stereotypes and literal barriers such as common rooms and seperate classes. It would give the students a chance to interact and maybe reveal some of their natural skill and interests and personality before being sorted.
And, at 11 years old, although natural talent is already in a person, like if you're going to be a world class violinist it's apparent by like age 4. But, some talents are more hidden and need to be developed, and at 11 years of age many people think that they're good at something and really want to be an astronaut or a doctor but a couple months later their heart's desire is to be Quidditch champion or Minister for Magic. It's a very young age to state what a person is. Although the Hat doesnt determine what choices the person will go on to make, in a sense it's presenting limited options because it's reduced by 3/4 what possibilities there are.
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  I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.  When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan |
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Mar 28 2008, 10:21 PM
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Rat Tonic Bottler
Posts: 1,127
Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008
Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party
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Excellent poll, Lirene!
QUOTE(roonwit @ Mar 28 2008, 04:26 PM)  It is probably worth pointing out what Jo has said on this QUOTE ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?
JKR: No.
ES: Really?
JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?
ES: I have heard a lot of theories.
JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.
MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -
JKR: [makes mysterious noise]
MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -
JKR: The founders themselves. So I think we can conclude that the sorting hat doesn't make mistakes, though of course it might still allow the student to choose, and the student might later change in ways the sorting hat couldn't foresee (for example if later events change the student).
Thanks, Roonwit; I was just about to mention this.
As mentioned in the interview, the Sorting Hat is infallible - at least in terms of the characteristics that truly define the student they way they are at the time. As Roonwit rightly says, the Hat cannot predict what the student will become in later years - Divination is dodgy enough without trying to predict character traits in later years! Snape is a prime example of this: he was clearly a Slytherin in his Hogwarts days (as a student), but even though he still valued the House as a teacher, there's no doubt that his Gryffindor-like characteristics defined him much more accurately.
However, it is also true that it takes the students' choices into account (as we saw with Harry). But there's a catch: you can't simply tell the Hat "I want to be in Gryffindor" and off you go. A student's choice will only be considered if the Hat determines that (s)he would do well in more than one house, and even then, the student can't simply make an eeny-meeny-miney-moe sort of choice. When Harry was sorted, he was afraid of being put in Slytherin because he knew deep down that that was not the house for him, so the Hat put him in the other House he was suited for.
On a related note, many have suggested (in other threads) that the reason why the Hat considered Harry for Slytherin was because of the fragment of LV's soul within him. I think there's a lot of merit to this theory, since the Hat pretty much looks into one's soul to determine these characteristics. However, that's not to say that Harry does not possess the qualities of a Slytherin on his own. As DD points out in CoS (when they discuss Harry's Sorting), Harry does in fact possess many of the qualities Slytherin himself prized, and this was well before DD knew that Harry "was" a Horcrux. Even without the fragment of LV's soul, Harry would likely have been considered for Slytherin; however, I don't think it would have been such a close call in this case.
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And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right?
No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?"
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Mar 29 2008, 09:38 AM
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Dumbledore's Personal Secretary
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QUOTE We know that all four Founders put a part of themselfs into the Hat (although we dont know where it keeps its brains, so should we trust it lol)
Moose, you slay me ! 
This is a very tough poll and I'm still unsure what I should vote for. Jo had said that the Sorting Hat was never wrong in an interview, but she also said in DH through Dumbldore that sorting students at the age of 11 was not entirely correct. So, now, I don't know what exactly to think. 
It seems to me that the Sorting Hat has different criteria for different people :
It took Harry's choice into consideration when he fervently wished, 'Not Slytherin, not Slytherin.' ~ This is an example of the Hat listening to the student it is sorting. It recognised part of Voldemort's soul in Harry, which naturally had strong Slytherin leanings, but also saw the real Harry, who was not at all Slytherin material. He might have been cunning and determined, but Harry was never selfish or prepared to go to any lengths to achieve his ends if it meant hurting others. The Hat, being undecided, went with Harry's negative choice and put him in Gryffindor.
I even have a sneaky suspicion here that it was Dumbledore who put the Hat up to giving Harry a choice. He certainly did know how Harry had come to be sorted in Gryffindor as he says so in CoS. Actually, harrypottergeek2, I got the impression that Dumbledore suspected the truth about Harry being an unintended Horcrux from the moment he saw the scar on Harry's forehead, and it became a certainty when he saw the diary.
Then we have Hermione's words that the Hat seriously considered putting her in Ravenclaw, but chose Gryffindor ultimately. ~ An example perhaps of recognising the latent quality of a Gryffindor though the obvious Ravenclaw trait was very apparent. We can't be totally sure of this because we hear Hermione saying on the train that she thought Gryffindor was the best, so her unexpressed choice could have played a role too.
Draco was sorted into Slytherin as soon as it touched his head. ~ This case, IMO, was a combination of preference as well as tendency. Draco wanted to be in Slytherin and fitted into Slytherin perfectly.
Coming to the problematic one, Peter Pettigrew was sorted into Gryffindor ~ For this one, all I can think of to say is that he probably was brave and chivalrous and all that at that point of time, and later changed horribly. Meaning that the Hat took into account only what it saw at that stage and didn't bother with the business of uncovering latent tendencies.
Snape went to Slytherin ~ He wanted to go to Slytherin, and did have qualities of that house, but he also changed with time to become more of a Gryffindor than a Slytherin, though that is entirely my opinion, and I can say Dumbldore thinks more or less the same way too, for he made that comment mainly in respect of Snape. The Hat decided he was a Slytherin beased on his attitude at the age of 11.
So, to conclude, (finally ), I'd have to say that I really don't know what to say ! A very concise and clear conclusion, even if it is inconclusive. 
This post has been edited by rowena r: Mar 29 2008, 09:42 AM
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Mar 29 2008, 11:13 AM
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Neville is Simply Purrrfect
Posts: 3,624
Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008
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Thanks for the compliment harrypottergeek2! And Moose_Starr, you are very welcome. Roonwit, I appreciate the quote you provided from one of Rowling's interviews. I had read that interview quite a while back and I remember that I was stunned to hear the Hat never made mistakes. In another interview, Rowling called the Hat "shrewd". After reading the HP books, however, I was left a bit skeptical. So what I had read in different interviews, coupled with the many insightful opinions from posters influenced this poll (thanks for your help, Rowena ).
I am having a hard time accepting the Hat being infallible for the simple fact that people change. Plus the Hat's powers and the fact that the Hat is never wrong makes me think that this object is to be seen as something divine. How can four human beings (albeit wizards) create something that can't be wrong? How can a magical object never make mistakes when one of it's very flaws is that it doesn't take into consideration what a student might become in later years; and the personality traits it sees in an 11 year old might just be a trait seen in it's early infancy; but said trait has the potential to grow; or become something else entirely?
Also, I believe that the fact that students who have the characteristics necessary to belong to a certain house, shrouds them in a certain bias. Does anyone think that belonging to a certain house from an early age hinder a student's growth and maturity? And are certain character traits so inherent that they prevail no matter the person's age?
On a more humorous note; maybe the Hat can be bewitched to fly out of the Headmaster's office the moment the Hat "senses" changes in a student that it deems important enough. (ok, I realize this might not be funny to everyone; ahhh)…
QUOTE(harrypottergeek2 @ Mar 28 2008, 11:21 PM) However, it is also true that it takes the students' choices into account (as we saw with Harry). But there's a catch: you can't simply tell the Hat "I want to be in Gryffindor" and off you go. A student's choice will only be considered if the Hat determines that (s)he would do well in more than one house, and even then, the student can't simply make an eeny-meeny-miney-moe sort of choice.
Well said. I do believe that a student cannot choose what house to be in just because they want to be something they are not. For example, if one sees himself as brave, that doesn't mean he truly is. However, having said this, if an 11 year old isn't "seen" by the Hat that he/she isn't brave, can said student develop bravery later in life and have this trait predominate? Here I bring the example of Snape.
QUOTE(rowena r @ Mar 29 2008, 10:38 AM) It seems to me that the Sorting Hat has different criteria for different people :
I even have a sneaky suspicion here that it was Dumbledore who put the Hat up to giving Harry a choice. He certainly did know how Harry had come to be sorted in Gryffindor as he says so in CoS. Actually, harrypottergeek2, I got the impression that Dumbledore suspected the truth about Harry being an unintended Horcrux from the moment he saw the scar on Harry's forehead, and it became a certainty when he saw the diary.
You bring an interesting twist. The Hat does seem to have different criteria; but could these criteria be a necessity since the Hat is sorting so many different people? You can't have one criteria and apply it to hundreds (thousands?) of fledgling wizards.
I am keen to know where the sneaking suspicion about Dumbledore comes from.
This post has been edited by lirene: Mar 29 2008, 01:31 PM
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Mar 29 2008, 12:16 PM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
Posts: 9,890
Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005
Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape
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So I'm not doubting JKRs opinion of the Hat but, when did she say it's never wrong .. did she say it before or after DH? Also, DD who is a very wise and knowledgable wizard has obviously wondered if we sort too soon, which doesnt necessarily infer fault with the Hat but, the way in which it is used, or more precisely when it is used.
And, while the Hat is never wrong, could the four Founders ever be wrong? All humans make error in judgment, and the Founders lived A Very Long Time Ago when values and society must have been totally different. So what might today be considered as arrogance could have been considered courage a thousand years ago when people were persecuted and put to death even on suspicion of being a witch or a wizard.
Although the Hat moves with the times, it's still a part of the Founders (or they're a part of the Hat) and it does come from that generation. However much anyone adapts to current society they still hold on to some old values and beliefs. Having said that, the Sorting Hat clearly knows what's happening and oftentimes gives insight or a warning of current events.
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I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan
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