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The Influence of Austen, Was JKR inspired by P&P?
Pyxis
post Apr 23 2008, 01:34 AM
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We are reading and discussing this book because it was listed by J.K. Rowling as one of her favorites. Do you think it had any influence, specifically or generally, on her development of the Harry Potter plotline or characters?



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Join us in Jo's Book Nook for discussion of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, starting Jan. 1.
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Dreamteam
post Apr 24 2008, 05:30 PM
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Like some others I think Darcy may have been an influence for Snape a little in that they both do things for the good of others but don't want it to be well known that they've done them. Darcy helped Lydia, by making sure that Wickham married her and so salvaged her reputation, because he loved Elizabeth, but didn't want her to know what he'd done, he wanted her to love him for himself rather than what he'd done for her sister. Similarly, Snape helped Dumbledore to protect Harry because he had loved Lily and promised to make sure that she hadn't died in vain, but didn't want Dumbledore to ever "reveal the best of [him]".

There's also a strong theme of prejudice throughout the HP series, prejudice against muggles, muggleborn magical people, non-humans, half-bloods, wizards with "furry little problems", etc. Unlike in Pride & Prejudice, its not really something that is essential to the main plot, but it adds so much colour to the story, its something that helps to put flesh on the bones of the story and helps to create a better understanding of what life in the Potterverse is like.

Another general similarity is the way things aren't always what they seem. Most people reading Pride & Prejudice dislike Darcy intensely to begin with and think what a charmer Wickham is. I remember talking to a friend who was watching the BBC series, having never read the book (scandalous, I know), she was quite sure that Elizabeth would end up marrying Wickham. The twist in how their characters turn out is very similar to the way our perception of many characters in the HP series changes, such as Snape, Pettigrew, Sirius, Quirrell, Moody.


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Jo's Book Nook is now reading Sense and Sensibility - just click on the image
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
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Pyxis
post Apr 25 2008, 06:39 PM
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I like the comparisons of Darcy to Snape, very interesting. Analyzing influence is so interesting to me, I'm not an artist in any way shape or form, (I tested out as Charlotte, remember? biggrin.gif) but I would imagine that there are all sorts of subtle things that influence how an artist would create a work. I don't think it has to be an overt intent on the part of the artist (think little cartoon bubble over Jo's head with the words "Wow, I really liked such and such character, I am going to make one of mine just like him), but more as a person absorbs the things they like, then it becomes part of how they create. Does that make any sense at all? ponder.gif I think the comparisons to Snape show that Jo values some of the things that define Darcy...honor for the sake of honor and not worldly acclaim.

For me, I see the influence of Austen in how relationships develop in Potterverse. In P&P, as in other Austen works, the ideal partner is in plain sight, someone who was formerly a bickering partner (Darcy/Elizabeth; Ron/Hermione) or a former like-a-sibling (Fanny/Edmund Mansfield Park; Harry/Ginny).


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Join us in Jo's Book Nook for discussion of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, starting Jan. 1.
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Superfreed
post Apr 25 2008, 08:29 PM
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Because Jane Austen is Jo's favorite writer, we can assume that she read her a lot and is familiar with her writing style. I think that Jo definitely was influenced by the general tone of the Austen books. Both JKR and Austen combine comedy and drama and satire. They both take a long time to carefully develope some characters while other characters are perfectly developed in a clever snap shot.

Another similarity of style is in their genious at creating believable friendships. Jane and Elizabeth, Harry and Ron and Hermione. These are true friends. The reader wants them to stay together forever. Alternatively, both authors are highly adept at cultivating villains which we love to hate. Lady Catherine, Lucious Malfoy, Gilderoy Lockhart, and Mr. Collins are all delicious baddies. Umbridge is perhaps best compared with the young Mrs. Dashwood (sorry it isn't P&P). We hate them so much, but it is a somehow enjoyable hatred.

I guess that's all I'll put. Hopefully others will expand. smile.gif
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Siyrean
post Apr 25 2008, 09:29 PM
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i admit, i've always hated the comparison of Snape- Darcy. it's seems more a fanon Snape comparison. book Snape i would think has a much more Heathcliff or Sidney Carston(sp?) insperiation. Snape is reserved, Darcy is reserved... that is as far as the comparison goes that i can see.

as for Austens influence on Jo's writing, i see it very much in her style of humor. just her way of discribing a situation in a way that makes you laugh out loud dispite it not having a punch line- i suppose you'd call it, i think is very similar. Jo's discription of Harry's first kiss comes to mind... the whole it was wet, you'd think a bit of kissing would cheer her up, Harry was suddenly worried that maybe he was that bad... reminds me of Austens style.

Emma needs to be a book done here too biggrin.gif read.gif
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Dreamteam
post Apr 26 2008, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE(Siyrean @ Apr 26 2008, 03:29 AM) *
i admit, i've always hated the comparison of Snape- Darcy. it's seems more a fanon Snape comparison. book Snape i would think has a much more Heathcliff or Sidney Carston(sp?) insperiation. Snape is reserved, Darcy is reserved... that is as far as the comparison goes that i can see.

as for Austens influence on Jo's writing, i see it very much in her style of humor. just her way of discribing a situation in a way that makes you laugh out loud dispite it not having a punch line- i suppose you'd call it, i think is very similar. Jo's discription of Harry's first kiss comes to mind... the whole it was wet, you'd think a bit of kissing would cheer her up, Harry was suddenly worried that maybe he was that bad... reminds me of Austens style.

Emma needs to be a book done here too biggrin.gif read.gif

Siyrean, I can definitely see some of Heathcliff in Snape - the darkness, particularly, but not so much Sidney Carton apart from maybe the self-sacrifice, although when I read Tale of Two Cities again I'll think of that smile.gif . The main similarity I see between Darcy and Snape is that they did good things for the sake of others but didn't want anyone to know about it, the last thing they wanted was publicity for their good deeds and tried very hard to keep them secret, Snape was more successful, but then he didn't have Lydia to contend with lol.gif . I agree with you and Pyxis that the way JA and JKR write humour is similar, describing things in a way that just makes me smile, rather than making jokes is very similar, although JKR does write some things as overt jokes - Fred: "he can moved faster then Severus Snape confronted with shampoo when he wants to" lol.gif

Emma will hopefully be done here too, we've already agreed that our third book will be The Subtle Knife by Philip Pullman, and our fifth will be his final book in the trilogy His Dark Materials, The Amber Spyglass. We'll start a thread to suggest books to read in the fourth month and then have a poll to decide what we'll read.


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Jo's Book Nook is now reading Sense and Sensibility - just click on the image
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
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Acrux
post Apr 27 2008, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE(Siyrean @ Apr 26 2008, 02:29 PM) *
i admit, i've always hated the comparison of Snape- Darcy. it's seems more a fanon Snape comparison. book Snape i would think has a much more Heathcliff or Sidney Carston(sp?) insperiation. Snape is reserved, Darcy is reserved... that is as far as the comparison goes that i can see.

as for Austens influence on Jo's writing, i see it very much in her style of humor. just her way of discribing a situation in a way that makes you laugh out loud dispite it not having a punch line- i suppose you'd call it, i think is very similar. Jo's discription of Harry's first kiss comes to mind... the whole it was wet, you'd think a bit of kissing would cheer her up, Harry was suddenly worried that maybe he was that bad... reminds me of Austens style.
I agree. The first few books especially reminded me of Jane Austen's style, particularly Rowling's descriptions.

Not all of the following quote applies, of course, but on the whole it sums up what it is that I think JK Rowling shares with Jane Austen.
QUOTE(W. Somerset Maugham)
"No one has ever looked on Jane Austen as a great stylist. Her spelling is peculiar and her grammar often shaky, but she has a good ear. I think the influence of Dr Johnson can be discerned in the structure of her sentences. She is apt to use the word of Latin origin rather than the plain English one, the abstract rather than the concrete. It gives her phrase a slight formality which is far from unpleasant: indeed it often adds point to a witty remark and a demure savor to a malicious one. Her dialogue is probably as natural as dialogue can ever be. To set down on paper speech as it is spoken would be very tedious, and some arrangement of it is necessary.
...
As [Sir Walter] Scott said, Miss Austen deals with commonplace things, the involvements, feelings, and characters of ordinary life; nothing very much happens and yet when you reach the bottom of the page you eagerly turn it in order to know what will happen next; nothing very much does and again you turn the page with the same eagerness. The power of making you do this is the greatest gift a novelist can have and I often wondered what creates it. Why is it that even when you have read the novel* over and over again your interest never flags? I think with Jane Austen it is because she was so immensely interested in her characters and in what happened to them and because she profoundly believed in them."
* Pride and Prejudice

- Acrux



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Of course, every time Ron gets a Moment, the first thought in my head is automatically "Well, I guess That's not making the movie." - flyin_car
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Mused
post Apr 27 2008, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 25 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I would imagine that there are all sorts of subtle things that influence how an artist would create a work. I don't think it has to be an overt intent on the part of the artist (think little cartoon bubble over Jo's head with the words "Wow, I really liked such and such character, I am going to make one of mine just like him), but more as a person absorbs the things they like, then it becomes part of how they create.


I completely agree, Pyxis. Being influenced by something isn't like taking some scissors and glue and sticking a bit of Pride and Prejudice into Harry Potter. It's much more subtle than that. As both a person and a writer JK Rowling is a product of her experiences and her reactions to those experiences. It just so happens that a number of those experiences was reading a whole lot of Austen.

Very few characters or events in the Harry Potter series can truly be said to be a direct copy of some other influence. Rather, a set of experiences (poverty, motherhood, Austen, Dickens, Edith Hamilton and a host of other writers) created a person, and that person created a story. To say that any character is a facsimile of some other character is not giving JKR enough credit for her own enormous creativity.

That being said, it's fun to attempt to trace Rowling's influences through the evidence of her creations. It's fun to compare similar qualities of characters, while realizing that the characters themselves are very different.

And you're right, Superfreed, I do derive some sick pleasure in hating Dolores Umbridge and the younger Mrs. Dashwood! clap2.gif


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chocolate89
post Apr 28 2008, 06:20 PM
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hehhe umbridge and dashwood brilliance! I agree with the previous post that every writer has many influences, since as writers, they are first and foremost, readers. Jo has said many times that she read endlessly as a child, which is clear in a work. The more a writer reads, the better they will be, as both art forms go hand in hand.


I think snape compared to darcy is brilliance, i never thought of them like that, but i can see why one would say that. Makes me re think snape all over again. Even with the revelations at the end of deathly hallows, i did not think snape evil even though i did continue to dislike him, where as in the end or pride and prejudice i did not dislike mr darcy. More of a fan girl of him.




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Superfreed
post Apr 28 2008, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE(Mused @ Apr 27 2008, 01:44 PM) *
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 25 2008, 06:39 PM) *
I would imagine that there are all sorts of subtle things that influence how an artist would create a work. I don't think it has to be an overt intent on the part of the artist (think little cartoon bubble over Jo's head with the words "Wow, I really liked such and such character, I am going to make one of mine just like him), but more as a person absorbs the things they like, then it becomes part of how they create.


I completely agree, Pyxis. Being influenced by something isn't like taking some scissors and glue and sticking a bit of Pride and Prejudice into Harry Potter. It's much more subtle than that. As both a person and a writer JK Rowling is a product of her experiences and her reactions to those experiences. It just so happens that a number of those experiences was reading a whole lot of Austen.

Very few characters or events in the Harry Potter series can truly be said to be a direct copy of some other influence. Rather, a set of experiences (poverty, motherhood, Austen, Dickens, Edith Hamilton and a host of other writers) created a person, and that person created a story. To say that any character is a facsimile of some other character is not giving JKR enough credit for her own enormous creativity.

That being said, it's fun to attempt to trace Rowling's influences through the evidence of her creations. It's fun to compare similar qualities of characters, while realizing that the characters themselves are very different.

And you're right, Superfreed, I do derive some sick pleasure in hating Dolores Umbridge and the younger Mrs. Dashwood! clap2.gif


I hope no one thought that I meant that Jo copies Jane. I just meant that Jo probably has Jane's style sort of in the back of her head when she writes. Because she is her favorite author, I thought that Jo might have studied Jane and wanted to be as good at characterization and humor and satire. She may have learned a lot from Jane's style, but I would never say that she copied.

One example of something that is so special and unique to JKR is her mix of humor. She has satire, sarcasm, subtext, puns and word play, double entendre, witty repartee, one liners, humorous descriptions and random bits of kindergarten humor. I love it! I've never seen this anywhere else.
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