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The Hobbit and The Precious |
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 Jun 11 2008, 05:19 PM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
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Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the Sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
In The Hobbit, why was Bilbo Baggins not affected by the Ring?
He never became depressed, jealous, envious, he never sought power. Yet he wore it often and for long periods of time.
In fact in the chapter A Thief in the Night, Bilbo uses the ring to sneak out with the Arkenstone in an effort to avert war and bring harmony among the different peoples.
He does not use it for personal gain, to steal the treasure, to infuence or impress others, or to become powerful.
Or, is he affected by the Ring?
The only possible negative effect could be that Bilbo lied at first about the circumstances of how he originally acquired the ring. Gandalf found it important and disturbing and "quite contrary to his habit" that Bilbo had not told the truth to begin with.
In The Hobbit is the Ring's power yet to be unleashed? It has destroyed Gollum, as we plainly see, so it does have a distinctly negative influence on and power over its owner. But it does not seem to have much effect on Bilbo for the year of his Adventure.
Let us theorize and discuss the Ring, and your opinions of it and its powers.
This post has been edited by Moose_Starr: Jun 13 2008, 08:58 AM
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  I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.  When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan |
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Jun 15 2008, 12:15 AM
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I think the ring is definitely influencing Bilbo, from the very first time he conceals its existence from his friends. It is not in his nature to lie, or even to be rude, and it is suspicious that Bilbo cannot even explain to himself why he omits mention of the ring when telling his friends how he escaped. My question is, could any of Bilbo's later acts, termed heroism, be attributed to the influence of the ring? It certainly is not in Bilbo's nature to plunge a dagger into an enormous spider, either, so did his act spring from courage within himself, or from the aggressive influence of the ring?
So how far does the power of the ring go? I don't know how sentient I want to make this object, how many 'decisions' it can make for itself. I do believe it 'chose' to leave Gollum, perhaps it could sense that Gollum had maxed out, evil-wise, and was not using the full magic within the ring, so abandoned him. I have a hard time crediting the ring with knowing that Bilbo would be the one to pick it up, that would entail the ring having thoughts and feelings of its own.
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Jun 15 2008, 05:32 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher
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The Ring didn't know that Bilbo would pick it up, and Gandalf, at least, feels that is important in LOTR. The Ring, if we are giving it thoughts, probably felt that most likely an Orc/Goblin would pick it up, and, since Orcs aren't the brightest of creatures, nor are they Good, it probably thought that it would have a much easier time getting back to Sauron with an Orc possessor/possessee. If it had ensnared an Orc, then Middle Earth would not have survived, because Sauron would have found it as soon as he started mustering troops.
As for what changes it had on Bilbo... well, it did immediately change him, by influencing him to tell a lie, and an unnecessary lie, at that. It doesn't change him drastically during the Hobbit, simply because it doesn't work that fast. It took round about 500 years to make Gollum what he is, and he started out his ownership of the Ring with murder. Bilbo only has had it for a few months by the end of the Hobbit. And he started out his ownership with good intentions, and he uses it (so far as I remember) with good reason throughout the rest of the book. Every time he uses it, it is either necessary for his own survival, or that of the dwarves, or to prevent the unnecessary loss of life. There are more signs of the Ring's influence on Bilbo in the beginning and middle of FOTR, 60 and 80 years later, respectively, showing that there is an influence on him, though it takes a while to manifest.
The effect of the Ring on Frodo throughout LOTR is accelerated because of the Quest, his proximity to Sauron and Sauron's agents, the Nazgul, and probably a good deal just because of the stress he is under. Also, the Ring may have sensed that he wanted to destroy it, and exerted more pressure on him as a result.
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You said, "I know that this will hurt,
But if I don't break your heart, things will just get worse.
If the burden seems too much to bear,
Remember, the end will justify the pain it took to get us there."
~Let It All Out, Relient K
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Jun 17 2008, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE(ravenclawgirl34 @ Jun 15 2008, 04:32 PM)  The Ring didn't know that Bilbo would pick it up, and Gandalf, at least, feels that is important in LOTR. The Ring, if we are giving it thoughts, probably felt that most likely an Orc/Goblin would pick it up, and, since Orcs aren't the brightest of creatures, nor are they Good, it probably thought that it would have a much easier time getting back to Sauron with an Orc possessor/possessee. If it had ensnared an Orc, then Middle Earth would not have survived, because Sauron would have found it as soon as he started mustering troops.
Great point, ravenclawgirl! What a great example of the destiny of a world turning on a single act.
While we are discussing the effect of the Ring on Bilbo, does anyone wonder if it was the Ring that caused him to conceal the fact he had found the Arkenstone? He seemed to be working rather hard to rationalize his desire to keep the Stone, and it seems to go against his nature to be so selfish. Of course, it was a good thing he did keep it, but still, Thorin was a respected friend and I was surprised that Bilbo could be uncaring enough to allow Thorin to continue looking for it when he knew where it was.
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Jun 17 2008, 11:35 AM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jun 15 2008, 03:15 AM) I think the ring is definitely influencing Bilbo, from the very first time he conceals its existence from his friends. It is not in his nature to lie, or even to be rude, and it is suspicious that Bilbo cannot even explain to himself why he omits mention of the ring when telling his friends how he escaped. My question is, could any of Bilbo's later acts, termed heroism, be attributed to the influence of the ring? It certainly is not in Bilbo's nature to plunge a dagger into an enormous spider, either, so did his act spring from courage within himself, or from the aggressive influence of the ring? Wow, I didnt even think of that. Gandalf was aware from early on after Bilbo found the Ring that there was more to *the hobbit* so he clearly suspected something but, I hadnt thought of Bilbo questioning himself & being unsure about why he chose to conceal the Ring.
Also, I hadnt thought of Bilbo's sudden change of character as being influenced by the Ring. Although as has been said, the Ring didnt know it would be found by Bilbo, thinking about it with these new ideas in mind I agree that the Ring must have exerted some influence on Bilbo. Although some of his actions could be explained by his Tookish side, I think much of it could be the *evil* in the Ring. Bilbo thinks to himself after killing the spider, that he felt somehow different & bolder (I dont have the book in front of me for the exact quote) & he named his sword Sting. And, at the time I agreed with Bilbo's thoughts that his courage had given him further courage. But, thinking about it, what made him kill the spider in the first place? He must have had new courage before killing the spider. I know in situations of extreme danger, adrenalin kicks in & a person (or Hobbit) is able to fight harder & longer than he would ever have imagine possible. But, maybe the Ring isnt yet as powerful as in LOTR, so doesnt have such a dramatic influence or as rapidly on Bilbo as it does on Frodo & those accompanying Frodo in FOTR.
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jun 17 2008, 03:13 AM) While we are discussing the effect of the Ring on Bilbo, does anyone wonder if it was the Ring that caused him to conceal the fact he had found the Arkenstone? He seemed to be working rather hard to rationalize his desire to keep the Stone, and it seems to go against his nature to be so selfish. Of course, it was a good thing he did keep it, but still, Thorin was a respected friend and I was surprised that Bilbo could be uncaring enough to allow Thorin to continue looking for it when he knew where it was. Again this is interesting because I hadnt thought of it like this at all. I had thought how little effect the Ring had on Bilbo, that he used the Arkenstone to bring peace among the Drawrfs & Elfs & Lake-Men. And, yes this was a good thing. But, I hadnt considered the idea that he had the stone a long time before this event, yet chose to conceal it. In fact why did he seek it out at all? So he knew that Thorin wanted it more than any other treasure but why should a Hobbit then go looking for it and, having found it decide to keep it. And have a tough time justifying to himself why he was lying to his friends.
 Things are not as simple as they first seem lol
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I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan
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Jun 17 2008, 01:33 PM
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Perusing the Magical Menagerie
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This is a great topic!
I think the Ring absolutely has power of its own, though I don't think I really want to believe that it can reason. The year of Bilbo's adventure was the same year that Sauron left Dol Goldur and returned to power in Mordor. I think the Ring's power is proportionate to Sauron's power, so as Sauron gained power in the years leading up to Bilbo's travels, I think the Ring also gained power and was trying to get back to its master. Did it know Bilbo would pick it up? Of course not - that's where fate stepped in, if you believe in such things.
I think the Ring did affect Bilbo, starting with (as many have already pointed out) his lies about his escape, but I think it was unable to change his fundamental nature. I think the Ring may have influenced Bilbo's actions - it may have given him more courage to kill the spiders and more daring to steal the Arkenstone, but Bilbo's true nature came through in that he used those actions for good - to save his friends and to bring peace, rather than for purely selfish reasons.
I think Gandalf's emphasis on the way in which Bilbo inherited the Ring is also very interesting (see "The Shadow of the Past" chapter in The Fellowship of the Ring). All of the bearers of all of the other Rings of Power (with the exception of the Three rings) were thoroughly corrupted by the rings. There were only two other possessors of the One Ring before the hobbits; one of them got the Ring by force in an act of vengeance, and the other came to it by murder. The first we know was betrayed by the Ring, but we don't really know that much about how corrupted he became by it. The second was, of course, completely corrupted by it.
But the Ring seems to have been thwarted in its efforts to corrupt the hobbits... Maybe because the three hobbits that bore the Ring all came to it in non-violent ways - Bilbo by chance, Frodo as a gift, and Sam very reluctantly by necessity, but I think it was also because of the general humble, down-to-earth nature of the hobbits as a people. The hobbits would not be all that tempted by visions of immense power or wealth - Bilbo gave much of his money away. Yes the Ring was more and more present in his mind as he grew older, but he still had enough sense - and sense of self - to know that something didn't feel right, and it would be at least somewhat of a relief to be rid of the Ring. I think the best illustration of how meaningless the Ring's temptations were to the hobbits is the vision that Sam has in The Return of the King - loyalty and humility and "hobbit-sense" tell him that he doesn't need anything more than what he'll have if he can just make it home.
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In memory of the constant through so much of my life,
and the spark who made us smile through the worst days.
Know that you both will always be deeply loved and missed. |
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Jun 19 2008, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE(shaylee_ann @ Jun 18 2008, 09:48 PM) I know J.R.R. Tolkien had an amazing amount of backstory/legends/etc. in his head, but...does anyone else think a reason for the slight discrepancy (as we might call it) is simply because he hadn't fully decided on the exact nature of the ring? Just wondering what other people think...
That is an interesting thought, shaylee_ann, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to write a story of this magnitude and have everything decided upon in advance. However, the nature of the ring is so integral to the whole series that I tend to think Tolkein showed the power of the ring well with his description of Gollum, he just didn't tell us that it was the ring that influenced Gollum to be as evil as he was.
So, since we are discussing the power of this ring, I think it is helpful to look at how it affected Gollum as well. I called Gollum 'evil' just now, but is he really? Living in a solitary in a dark mountain, eating goblins was a means of survival..does that count as an evil influence of the ring? I think the more descriptive part of his evil nature came in his conversation with Bilbo, to sit down and get to know someone(thing) that you plan on eating later is fairly repulsive.
Of course, there is also the reason he is in the mountain to begin with which I know has something to do with murder, but I can't remember the circumstances. Some spoiler, huh? 
This post has been edited by Pyxis: Jun 19 2008, 02:42 PM
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