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Twisting the Canon: A discussion about Neville the hero |
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 Jun 18 2008, 08:34 AM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes
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Joined: 11:25am July 18, 2007
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Hi. I wasn't sure where to put this, so I hope this is the right place. Last night I came across something that got me thinking about something I'd actually never considered before: Voldemort choosing Neville as the focus of the prophecy instead of Harry, and what that would do to the characters and stories we're so familiar with. I was wondering what other HP fans thought, and thought I'd start a thread specifically to discuss the 'what might've beens' if it had been Neville instead of Harry as the 'Boy Who Lived'. I was thinking about what we learned in Deathly Hallows, and realized that the identity of the person who had overheard the prophecy - and thus later became Dumbledor's double agent - because, even if the revelations about Harry's past that came to light in DH remained the same, one significant character - Snape - would probably absent from the story due to being in Azkaban (unless, of course, he managed to avoid being prosecuted like Lucius did). I couldn't figure out who among the characters we know could replace Snape as Dumbledore's double agent, but the person I thought who would best be suited to possibly replacing Snape as Neville's biggest antagonist on the teaching staff was Mad-Eye Moody. It would be an interesting shift in his personality as it is in the normal HP universe, and make for some interesting storytelling once we got to Goblet of Fire.
Although Harry and Neville have some similarities, the biggest difference between them is their personalities, and how those personalities evolve and grow over the course of the series. I happen to think that Neville would start out shy and clumsy, but then start to grow up at a much quicker rate than he did in the normal HP universe where Harry was the hero, primarily due to his friends. Speaking of friends, I wonder who the 'golden trio' of the 'Neville-verse' would've been. Hermione is an obvious choice because she's one of the first people to be friendly towards Neville in the normal HP universe, but I'm not sure who else Neville could befriend, at least during his first year, since the other 3 obvious choices for his friends - Colin, Ginny, and Luna - are all a year younger than him.
Of the characters we know, who could become Neville's best friends besides Hermione?
The last point I wanted to cover was Neville's wand. Although the narrative dictates that Neville would need the brother wand of Voldemort's, I happen to think that, had he been the hero of the story, that wand wouldn't have been introduced into the story until quite late (probably Book 6 at the earliest). Delaying when Neville learned about the twin properties of his and Voldemort's wand is something that would significantly alter how the final confrontation between himself and Voldemort would play out.
What are your guys's thoughts on this? What else would Neville being the hero have done to the narrative as we know it?
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Jun 19 2008, 08:24 PM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes
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Joined: 11:25am July 18, 2007
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QUOTE(miz_gryffindor091 @ Jun 19 2008, 09:17 AM)  I've wondered about this myself many times... how would the story change.. would it be the same story just a different central charater? Would the whole series be turned on its head? Would Neville have been successful in destroying Voldy??
Given that Neville has no known connections to people like Snape, Sirius, Remus, Pettigrew, etc., the events of Prisoner of Azkaban would probably have played out much differently; James and Lily would probably still have been alive if Neville were the one Voldemort went after, and the circumstances leading to Pettigrew's exposure as a double agent would've probably been much different. It IS possible that Sirius would've still ended up in Azkaban, albeit probably for a different reason (maybe for trying to kill Pettigrew for selling out the Order and his friends, even though James and Lily escaped unharmed), but, if he did, his reasoning for escaping and coming to Hogwarts would've most likely changed, and been purely about taking Pettigrew down (especially if something ended up happening to James and/or Lily while he was locked up and after Voldemort's downfall, which is certainly a possibility given the animosity that would've existed towards the Potters on the part of some of the more fanatical - and crazy - DEs, such as Bellatrix).
Neville's 'hero's journey' would also probably be different, if only in that it would be greatly accelerated. The story would probably also change as far as Neville's interaction with people like Harry, Ron, the Weasley twins, etc., since they would probably exist on the fringes of the narrative.
It is also likely that the role that characters like Ron, the Weasley twins, etc. played in the story would've changed, mainly because Neville would be interacting with them in a different way than Harry did in the normal HP 'verse. Speaking of Harry, his role and characterization would also most likely change, as he would probably end up being more of a prankster, akin to his father, Sirius, Remus, and Pettigrew; it's also probably likely that his relationship with the Weasleys would've been changed, and that he would've known and interacted with Ron and the other Weasleys from very early on in his life.
Switching gears to a different topic, I was doing some more thinking about Neville's possible friends, and decided that, besides Harry and/or Ron, the Gryffindor boy most likely to befriend him would be Seamus. They share a cauldron during the first Potions lesson in SS/PS in the normal HP 'verse, and could conceivably have become friends, particularly if more was made of both boys' tendency to destroy things and screw up).
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Jun 20 2008, 08:21 AM
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Modelling lime-green bowler hats at Madam Malkins
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Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005
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If you change Voldemort's choice of Harry over Neville then you change a lot of things, so it is difficult to say what would happen.
Probably the first change is that Snape wouldn't have switched sides to protect Lily as it would be the Longbottoms that were threatened (thus Snape would probably have gone to Azkaban after Karkaroff bargained for his freedom). That would mean that the Longbottoms wouldn't have any warning, so probably wouldn't use the Fidelius charm, so events might proceed as they did with Harry, though I can't see a couple of Aurors leaving their wands lying around, as they would surely still be aware that Voldemort might come after Neville.
If Alice did make the same sacrifice as Lily then things for Neville would remain much the same until he starts school as he would still have (in practical terms) lost his parents at an early age, though the expectation from his grandmother and family would be even higher.
The Sirius+Wormtail plotline would be completely different, as Wormtail wouldn't have been Secret Keeper so there would be nothing to identify him as the spy, so it is quite possible Sirius would have stayed out of Azkaban, and Wormtail could have stayed apparent friends with the Potters (though he might subsequently be identified as the spy and be jailed, or gone to seek Voldemort at an earlier stage).
Harry's story would be completely different as well. with parents and possibly brothers and/or sisters as well (Bella and friends wouldn't target the Potters as they couldn't be expected to know where Voldemort was). In particular he wouldn't be a stranger to the magical world and perhaps have friends of his own age before Hogwarts (for example Hannah Abbott who seems to have a connection with Godric's Hollow), so the meetings on the Hogwarts express would probably have been different, and we might not have had a trio, though I think Harry, Ron and Hermione, as Gryffindors would probably have become friends anyway. I also don't think Harry and Draco would have been such rivals, but nor would Draco and Neville, as I don't see Neville as such a dominant personality as Harry so Draco would try to bully Neville, and probably Harry, Ron and Hermione would protect him. But probably the midnight duel would never have happened, so they wouldn't have met Fluffy, and so the storyline would have been diverted down a new path.
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 W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 21 2008, 03:16 PM
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Hiding in the Iron Maiden at Borgin and Burkes
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Location: shopping in Diagon Alley
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That is a very interesting topic, it would certanly change a lot.
First of all: Snape, I still think he might be a spy, because even if Voldemort had chosen Neville, his plan was probably to kill Harry after he'd kill Neville, just to be on the safe side, So Snape would know Lilly would be in danger, and might have gone to Dubledore anyway, of course Neville would not have the same relationship with Snape as Harry had, so it wouldn't be the same, and Snape would probably not have such an intense and big part in it all...
Who would be the trio? now I don't think he would have such a close friendship as Harrys, I think he'd still be more of a loner kind off... His fellow class mates would probably have more respect and admiration for him had he been the boy who lived, but his character wouldn't be much different I think, for his upbringing wouldn't have change too much...
Now he'd probably mature quicker, because, like Dumbledore 'prepared' Harry for what's comming, he'd probably prepare Neville as well, so he'd probably grow into the 'hero' role quicker...
Now this would change Harrys story completly, as for personality I think he'd probably be a bit more arrogant, more out there, probably a bit more like Draco (though still gryffindor of course..) I don't think he'd be as good of a friend with Hermione, but Ron should still eb his best mate...
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Please don't postpone HBP
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Jun 21 2008, 04:22 PM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes
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Joined: 5:56pm July 22, 2007
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There are unlimited possibilities of what might have happened. Nevilles mother would have had to make the same sacrifice as Lily to destroy Voldy in the begining. Harry would be a different person haveing been raised by his parents. Neville would be relativly the same having been raised by the same woman..but would have lost his parents differently. Snape would not have become spy if Lily wasn't threatened, and therefore DD would never have hired him and he wouldn't be part of the story, perhaphs even in Askaban! Neville could have responded to the fame as Harry did or responded poorly and not have been the hero we see in Harry. - Who knows what could have happened!!
This post has been edited by Danielle.H: Jun 21 2008, 04:23 PM
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'I know, mate,' said Ron... 'so it's now or never, isn't it?'
"Nitwit, blubber, oddment, tweak"
"It is our choices Harry, that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
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Jun 21 2008, 06:54 PM
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Modelling lime-green bowler hats at Madam Malkins
Posts: 7,909
Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005
Location: near Muggleswick, UK
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QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 09:16 PM) First of all: Snape, I still think he might be a spy, because even if Voldemort had chosen Neville, his plan was probably to kill Harry after he'd kill Neville, just to be on the safe side, But there is no evidence that Voldemort ever planned to kill Neville after he killed Harry, Maybe he would have done so after Harry was dead, but as he never succeeded in killing Harry this never happened, so in the alternate hypothesis Snape would have no reason to change sides before Voldemort was vanquished and it was too late.
QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 09:16 PM) Now he'd probably mature quicker, because, like Dumbledore 'prepared' Harry for what's comming, he'd probably prepare Neville as well, so he'd probably grow into the 'hero' role quicker... That is possible, but apart from giving Harry his father's invisibility cloak and some vague hints about the Mirror of Erised, Dumbledore does nothing to actively prepare Harry until the Occlumency lessons in OotP, he merely gives Harry space to act on his own.
QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 09:16 PM) Now this would change Harrys story completly, as for personality I think he'd probably be a bit more arrogant, Actually Harry might even be less arrogant. I think an upbringing by his parents, and particularly his mother, and with friends before Hogwarts might make him more considerate of others.
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W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 22 2008, 09:56 AM
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Hiding in the Iron Maiden at Borgin and Burkes
Posts: 330
Joined: 2:11pm June 21, 2008
Location: shopping in Diagon Alley
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QUOTE(roonwit @ Jun 22 2008, 01:54 AM) QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 09:16 PM) First of all: Snape, I still think he might be a spy, because even if Voldemort had chosen Neville, his plan was probably to kill Harry after he'd kill Neville, just to be on the safe side, But there is no evidence that Voldemort ever planned to kill Neville after he killed Harry, Maybe he would have done so after Harry was dead, but as he never succeeded in killing Harry this never happened, so in the alternate hypothesis Snape would have no reason to change sides before Voldemort was vanquished and it was too late. QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 09:16 PM) Now he'd probably mature quicker, because, like Dumbledore 'prepared' Harry for what's comming, he'd probably prepare Neville as well, so he'd probably grow into the 'hero' role quicker... That is possible, but apart from giving Harry his father's invisibility cloak and some vague hints about the Mirror of Erised, Dumbledore does nothing to actively prepare Harry until the Occlumency lessons in OotP, he merely gives Harry space to act on his own. QUOTE(keola sombra @ Jun 21 2008, 09:16 PM) Now this would change Harrys story completly, as for personality I think he'd probably be a bit more arrogant, Actually Harry might even be less arrogant. I think an upbringing by his parents, and particularly his mother, and with friends before Hogwarts might make him more considerate of others.
1) There might not be any direct evience, but I can't see Voldermort letting Harry live when he knew there was a chance he'd be a threat, and even if Voldy had no intentions of killing Harry, Lily would be in danger, and I think the whole situation gave him a scare and maded him realize he was on the wrong team...
2) When I said this I was thinking of something someone said (I think it was on pottercast, but Im not sure) about how DH changed the way we look at DD, it was something like; he deliberatly put Harry in 'danger' and challenge / tested him to prepare him for what's comming... I would think he'd do the same with Neville, and maybe, because Neville is a much more reserved person than Harry, he'd start earlier with a more hands-on approach, like teach him duelling, occlumency...
3) I highly doubt beeing raised by the maruaders (especially James and Sirius) would make anyone less arrogant, yes Lily would be a positive influence, but I don't think he'd be less arrogant at least...
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Please don't postpone HBP
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