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JRR Tolkien, the writer, There and back again |
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 Jun 20 2008, 09:58 AM
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JRR Tolkien has given us a unique insight into Middle Earth and its inhabitants through his powerful descriptions, evocative imagery and incredible use of language. Apart from creating whole linguistic systems and histories of the peoples of Middle Earth, his use of the English language draws us into Bilbo's adventure. The drama and tension are palpable as we find ourself alone in the Forest at night, or battling the Spiders ... we are caught up in every step of the journey and its many adventures.
Fantasy fiction is not a new genre of literature, and tales of magical creatures such as trolls, elfs or dragons are as old as dirt.But, I cant think of any other book that makes them come alive to us, transports us to Middle Earth and reveals its inhabitants, history and traditions.
The Hobbit was first published in 1937, over 70 years ago, in a time before television or DVDs. There were movie theaters at that time but otherwise the methods of storytelling were very limited. What a fantastic mind and imagination JRRT must have had to write not just a *childerns fantasy fiction* book but, whole books with languages, history, maps and detailed explanations of the eras of Middle Earth describing the legends and mythology of the *Elder Days*, providing background history of Elvish tongues. He calculated calendars of the different Ages of Middle Earth. In fact we (or at least I) do not feel that we're being told a story but, the story of a very real place that actually exists or existed in the past.
Although The Hobbit is described as *a prelude* to The Fellowship of The Ring, all books are connected by each other and interconnected by their content. In The Hobbit we hear names and stories dating back to times before the Third Age, such as Elrond, the High-Elves, Orcs, Durin, Moria and of course The Ring itself. There are themes that run through all the books, while more detailed history and backgrounds have their own books.
Not being a serious writer myself, I imagine that all good authors have a detailed background for their characters and the world they inhabit. But, I would think that JRRT was the first to take it to a whole new level of research. He has created a real world with its own languages, legends and history. At first glance that might not seem so spectacular, after all JKR has a whole timeline with legends, languages and history dating back to way before the start of the first Harry Potter book. But, a precedent had already been established (and now it is much easier to research facts on the internet and plot dates on a PC) (not that I'm dissing JKR lol, I'm a huge fan) But, when JRRT wrote his books he had no extensive database to fall back on, and no precent to set the high standard. This shows an awesome intellect and great author that is JRRT.
This post has been edited by Moose_Starr: Jun 20 2008, 09:59 AM
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  I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.  When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan |
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Jun 24 2008, 03:05 PM
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Spellotaping Monster Books of Monsters
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Maybe it's just me, but I loved reading all the connecting information and footnotes - so when you re-read the Hobbit - you go, Ah, yeah - I can see where that would lead to ....
I think Sir. J.R.R.Tolkien provides a wealth of insight into a writers imagination - which in his case was inexhaustible. I will admit I am still intimidated by the Tolkien fan sites. Last thing I need is someone quoting Tolkien liked it's scripture.
The Hobbit showed you could go from here to there - and have an adventure, then years later you could go from here to there and have a completely different adventure, you just have to walk out your door...
As for Christopher Tolkien being rather naughty with his Father's Estate - well, hmm....I have to say I am glad with The Hobbit there was a new writer to do the appendixes, notes, and connecting history books to the Hobbit, John D Rateliff. I have the set. Now if I can squeeze reading the Hobbit, look at John D. Rateliff's notes, and work on my own writing and Art at the same time - I might be able to keep up with the reading group.
So in fact right now I am reading the Hobbit - but the complete text of the original manuscript. If I pull some ideas out of my hat while reading this expanded version - I will try to keep aware to mention it.
This post has been edited by helyx: Jun 24 2008, 03:07 PM
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Jun 26 2008, 12:20 AM
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QUOTE(helyx @ Jun 24 2008, 01:05 PM)  The Hobbit showed you could go from here to there - and have an adventure, then years later you could go from here to there and have a completely different adventure, you just have to walk out your door...
Wow, I love this statement, helyx. All of Bilbo's adventures and fortune (good and bad) came because he was willing to step outside his comfortable home.
I love Tolkein's style. The world he has created is easy to escape into, but his characters don't suffer for that because they are as brilliantly developed as their surroundings.
I did want to ask other opinions about one thing, though, was anyone bothered by the fact that there are no female characters? At one point I wondered if there were even any female dwarves at all, since there is absolutely no reference to any females until the very end of the book when one of the dwarves mentions that Dain was Thorin's father's sister's son (or something like that). I know he has a couple of female characters in the Trilogy, but they don't take a prominent role. Why do you suppose that is? Is Tolkein making a political statement, or is there just not room in this story for female characters?
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Jun 26 2008, 11:33 AM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
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I think when JRRT wrote this book in the 1930s opinions were different about equality. Apparently JRRT has been accused of racism and sexism and anti-semitism. I dont know that much about him as a person, but what comes across to me in his writing isnt racist but it just reflects the attitudes of his time. This doesnt necessarily make it alright or cool but, that's how people thought back then.
Even now a female lead character is frowned on. There is a cool thread at Leaky, if Harry was a girl. Alas many of the replies are derisory. If in 2008 it's uncool to have a female lead character how must it have been in the 1930s. And, in JRRTs world, probably all his friends and associates were white male catholics. So he did like JKR, he wrote what he knew. It's maybe a little surprizing there's barely any mention (if at all?) of women in the Lake town chapters because this is like a real human city but, maybe women played such a small role outside of the home in real life that it would be unrealistic to put them in a book.
Personally, I dont think it's a political statement other than a reflection of the society of the time. And, I dont even think it was due to there not being room for a female character, I think it just didnt occur to him because, in his world that's the way things were.
By the LOTR Trilogy, time has passed and attitudes changed a little, I think that's why female characters begin to feature in the book but not in a dominant role because I'm guessing in the 1950s women in real life didnt have equality or prominent powerful jobs, and it was still the kingdom of the white catholic male.
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I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan
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Jun 27 2008, 10:52 AM
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QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jun 26 2008, 10:33 AM) I think when JRRT wrote this book in the 1930s opinions were different about equality. Apparently JRRT has been accused of racism and sexism and anti-semitism. I dont know that much about him as a person, but what comes across to me in his writing isnt racist but it just reflects the attitudes of his time. This doesnt necessarily make it alright or cool but, that's how people thought back then.
Even now a female lead character is frowned on. There is a cool thread at Leaky, if Harry was a girl. Alas many of the replies are derisory. If in 2008 it's uncool to have a female lead character how must it have been in the 1930s. And, in JRRTs world, probably all his friends and associates were white male catholics. So he did like JKR, he wrote what he knew. It's maybe a little surprizing there's barely any mention (if at all?) of women in the Lake town chapters because this is like a real human city but, maybe women played such a small role outside of the home in real life that it would be unrealistic to put them in a book.
Personally, I dont think it's a political statement other than a reflection of the society of the time. And, I dont even think it was due to there not being room for a female character, I think it just didnt occur to him because, in his world that's the way things were.
By the LOTR Trilogy, time has passed and attitudes changed a little, I think that's why female characters begin to feature in the book but not in a dominant role because I'm guessing in the 1950s women in real life didnt have equality or prominent powerful jobs, and it was still the kingdom of the white catholic male.
Good point, Moose, I suppose it probably is a reflection of his personal experience with life. The world around him was changing, women in the U.S. were allowed to vote in 1920, and 1928 in the U.K. (I think, correct me if I am wrong!), as this was published in 1937 then the role of women would still be a fairly new social change. It is interesting to read the series from the standpoint of our current culture, though. I find that the plot feels unbalanced, especially after having been immersed in Jane Austen for the last month or so.
I did a little digging for his personal history, and found this short biography. I find this quote interesting:
QUOTE His memories of Africa were slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent;
Now we know why the spiders are so creepy! 
It says he fought in the trenches of the Western Front in WWI, which might also explain the lack of female characters. Back then, war was a man's domain, his stories are set in an atmosphere of war, so perhaps he preferred to leave women out of the violent conflict. I wonder how much the experience of war influenced Hobbit?
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Jun 27 2008, 11:12 AM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jun 27 2008, 01:52 PM) QUOTE His memories of Africa were slight but vivid, including a scary encounter with a large hairy spider, and influenced his later writing to some extent; Now we know why the spiders are so creepy!
QUOTE It says he fought in the trenches of the Western Front in WWI, which might also explain the lack of female characters. Back then, war was a man's domain, his stories are set in an atmosphere of war, so perhaps he preferred to leave women out of the violent conflict. I wonder how much the experience of war influenced Hobbit? It would seem that war and battle are a major part of The Hobbit and LOTR. LOTR has a lot of battle scenes. In The Hobbit it's less of a grand scale war thing but, a series of minor conflicts and battles. Every situation results in confrontation, sword and ax wielding, battling the foe oftentimes to the death ... It's a very confrontational story. Apart with Beorn and the Eagles, the Dwarfs and Bilbo mostly seek to resolve their differences by battle.
So I guess the war influenced JRRT because war was a part of life and not just something that happens to someone else. And maybe at that time women didnt go to war so it would have been a male-dominated situation and WW1 was ugly so even if women did fight in the war, like you said maybe JRRT would have wanted to keep women out of this ugliness.
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I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan
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Jun 27 2008, 11:48 AM
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Even today, women are kept out of direct combat, at least in the US. Women in any sort of battle context (besides nursing) is something that has only begun again in the mid-20th century, though I do believe that some in some ancient cultures women fought. So, definately, the lack of women is not... not overtly sexist on Tolkien's part. It was just a part of the culture then. It would never have occured to him that it was wrong or bad or sexist to exclude women from a boy's adventure tale that dealt a lot with battles and such. Also, the cultures of Middle Earth range from the medieval-ish Gondor and Rohan to the 18th century-ish Shire. None of the cultures that they were based on were noted for equality between the sexes.
As for girl dwarves... there are significantly fewer of them than the males... something like 1 girl to every 2 boys... and you can't often tell the difference by looking at them...
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Jun 27 2008, 01:01 PM
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Loyal Lockhart Fan
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I have to confess to not noticing the lack of female characters before, but that's really interesting.
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jun 26 2008, 05:33 PM) By the LOTR Trilogy, time has passed and attitudes changed a little, I think that's why female characters begin to feature in the book but not in a dominant role because I'm guessing in the 1950s women in real life didnt have equality or prominent powerful jobs, and it was still the kingdom of the white catholic male. Maybe in Tolkein's circle but not in England in general. The official religion is the Church of England, and the country, from 1953, was run by a female monarch in her twenties! I agree with you that his attitudes are reflective of his life, but not of life in general. By the 1950s there had been countless groundbreaking works about, and by, women. I just think he was either not exposed to, or not interested in such developments.
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jun 27 2008, 04:52 PM) It says he fought in the trenches of the Western Front in WWI, which might also explain the lack of female characters. Back then, war was a man's domain, his stories are set in an atmosphere of war, so perhaps he preferred to leave women out of the violent conflict. I wonder how much the experience of war influenced Hobbit?
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jun 27 2008, 05:12 PM) It would seem that war and battle are a major part of The Hobbit and LOTR. LOTR has a lot of battle scenes. In The Hobbit it's less of a grand scale war thing but, a series of minor conflicts and battles. Every situation results in confrontation, sword and ax wielding, battling the foe oftentimes to the death ... It's a very confrontational story. Apart with Beorn and the Eagles, the Dwarfs and Bilbo mostly seek to resolve their differences by battle.
So I guess the war influenced JRRT because war was a part of life and not just something that happens to someone else. And maybe at that time women didnt go to war so it would have been a male-dominated situation and WW1 was ugly so even if women did fight in the war, like you said maybe JRRT would have wanted to keep women out of this ugliness. I noticed all the confrontation too - I like Bilbo's attitude towards it! lol - but I'm sure his experience in the trenches contributed to The Hobbit, - I'm thinking of the big piles of goblin bodies - and especially his experience of losing his friends. I'm surprised more of the dwarves didn't die actually.
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Jun 28 2008, 04:45 PM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man
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QUOTE(kbdiggity @ Jun 28 2008, 01:20 AM) {snip} The Elves of Rivendell are silly in The Hobbit and they are more melancholy in LoTR. For me this is the only *big difference* or lack of continuity between the Hobbit and the other Middle Earth books. It was a long time since I'd read The Hobbit, and rereading it for the BC, I was actually shocked at the elf's behavior, I'd totally forgotten how silly they are, apart from Elrond who is wise and knowledgable. But, otherwise they are a million miles removed from the magestic, noble elfs of LOTR, that are quick with a bow & arrow yet smart in their reasoning.
QUOTE But the great thing about Tolkien is that even if he didn't fully flesh out his world when he wrote The Hobbit, he was such a brilliant writer that he was able to tie it all together in a way that made sense with LoTR and the Silmarillion. To call him brilliant is really an understatement. He wrote detailed languages, histories of different races... the Silmarillion is really an insane undertaking. Totally. The Hobbit was (and is) a prelude to the LOTR trilogy and apart from some facts that dont quite match (like the elfs) the rest fits in perfectly, it comes together and the stories tie in, and a whole world with its cultures and languages is revealed to us. It's almost as though JRRT was treating us like childrenby giving us the *simple version* in The Hobbit, which he then follows up now that we've traveled there and back again, and grown in our understanding, by giving us LOTR and the Silmarillion.
Maybe that's not what he intended when he wrote The Hobbit as a book but, it does all tie in almost seamlessly 
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I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan
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