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Mac V.S. Windows V.S. Linux, The Ultimate War |
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 Jul 2 2008, 12:14 AM
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Shopping for a New Firebolt
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Location: Hopefully inside a giant virtual Hogwarts soon!
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? You say Linux takes lots of work to use, therefore it's the best. Sounds a bit strange to me.
Haven't used Linux, but I know someone that does use it (Ubuntu). Just to outline a few of the problems:
Does not come with mp3 codecs. You either have to pay the company, or download the codecs illegally (which I would not want to do).
In fact, general compatability is an issue. Of course, because it isn't used nearly as much as Windows you would expect this. Would be a huge problem for me though, considering many of the programs I use are Windows-only. Not really a bad thing about Linux itself, but definitely a problem.
And no, using Wine does not make everything OK. It would be an inconvenience at best, would cause slow downs, and I've heard that it's not particularly user-friendly.
Well that's pretty much all I know about it. I wouldn't be able to use it because of compatability, but it may be a great OS.
Mac would have the same issues for me. And I can't understand why you would call Mac the 'easy way out'. Seems pretty good to me. And I have used it a little.
But I don't have any need to move to another OS, because Vista works absolutely fine for me.
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Jul 2 2008, 02:28 PM
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Rat Spleen Restocker at the Apothecary
Posts: 494
Joined: 2:25pm February 11, 2005
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...I'm sorry, but this is sorta starting me up... (In my hands! Muhahahaha!  )
QUOTE(Inny Binny @ Jul 2 2008, 05:14 AM)  ? You say Linux takes lots of work to use, therefore it's the best. Sounds a bit strange to me.
Honestly, it sounds strange to me, too. In my experience just about everything works out-of-the-box. The only work comes, if you want to truly understand what ticks under the hood. But that's something you can't even do on a Mac or Win box.
QUOTE Haven't used Linux, but I know someone that does use it (Ubuntu). Just to outline a few of the problems:
Now, this is really enlightning! You never tried, but you know exactly where the problems are...  ...Sorry, i just spat a cup of coffe into my keyboard...
QUOTE Does not come with mp3 codecs. You either have to pay the company, or download the codecs illegally (which I would not want to do).
Your attitude is very nice - there is absolutely no justification for stealing.
But why not just click on the 'download new software' button and get a legal codec from the net? Most distro's dont have this codec - people don't want them. It is proprietary and infested with patents. In the F/OSS world, we usually use something called Ogg Vorbis - thats a set of free codecs, that compress audio and video just as much as MPEG, but plays back in a much better quality.
QUOTE In fact, general compatability is an issue. Of course, because it isn't used nearly as much as Windows you would expect this. Would be a huge problem for me though, considering many of the programs I use are Windows-only. Not really a bad thing about Linux itself, but definitely a problem.
And no, using Wine does not make everything OK. It would be an inconvenience at best, would cause slow downs, and I've heard that it's not particularly user-friendly.
Oh dear. here goes another keyboard.
First, the use of Linux. If you look here you can see the use of the Apache webserver. Now, who's the big player? Whenever you hear that "The Internet is down", well, then it's really only the just-short-of-20% thingy that doesen't work. The rest is fine. 
Linux supports more hardware than.. well, your favourite, and there is quite a impressive software compatibillity too. If you insist on running Win software on another system (how easy is that on a Mac? Or Solaris? Or...) ok, then you have to use Wine. But it's quite userfriendly, and it does NOT slow the software down!
But most of the time, you can simply replace a bit of Win software with a direct replacement. Here is a list. It may not be complete - new programs are added every day!
QUOTE Well that's pretty much all I know about it.
Sorry, no. Thats what you believe about it. And, i think you have been subjected to some serious misinformation.
May i humbly suggest that you try and download a Mandriva or a Ubuntu, and burn it on a empty CD? Put the finished CD in your CD or DVD drive and reboot the computer. If your BIOS is set to boot from CD/DVD (usually this is default) your machine will start a Linux. It will do so, without touching your harddisk. You can run the linux, play with all the software (and browse all the stuff that there isn't room for on the disc) - it will be a bit slow, as it runs out of the slowest part of your PC, but fully workable.
And when you've got enough, switch the machine off, and everything is gone. Just eject the CD, and your machine will be exactly as before you tried.
It only cost you a download and a empty CD. What you got to loose?
QUOTE But I don't have any need to move to another OS, because Vista works absolutely fine for me.
Well - try the CD's. But please don't be suprised if your opinion changes a bit....
I'm very sorry if you feel i have been rough on you. But i think it will be better for you if you actually try the stuff. And then comment.
I like Linux. At the moment, i have 8 computers running it, and i have used it for over 10 years. I have to use... other... machines at work - and it's a daily joy to arrive home at some computers that don't make trouble!
And, if you'll please excuse me - i got a excellent game of Doom3 going on one of the other machines... And without Wine! 
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Jul 2 2008, 09:23 PM
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Firefox's personal PR Dude
Posts: 6,389
Joined: 1:00pm January 4, 2005
Location: Seafaring on the S.S. Silver Inklish
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It seems to me like Mac and *nix are trying to be the anti-Windows, but in different ways. Feel free to disagree with me here.
It seems to me that Mac/Apple is trying to appeal to pure ease-of-use, as far as hardware bundling (iSight camera, magnetic power cord, etc.) and software bundling (iLife). Their recent Mac vs. PC commercials highlighted some security or bug issues, but a trend I noticed was how many of them addressed how much simpler or easier things are with a Mac than with a Windows machine.
*nix on the other hand seems to be trying to appeal to the principles of the user, emphasizing the free-ness of the software in all senses of the word, why Windows/Microsoft is a monopoly, and why using a *nix system is a way of sending a message or showing the world that you're taking a stand against a substandard product that is Windows and a substandard company that is Microsoft.
I often see this debate working more as Mac vs. Windows, but *nix vs. Microsoft, if that makes sense.
--Nick
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Jul 5 2008, 07:39 AM
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Shopping for a New Firebolt
Posts: 805
Joined: 1:52am November 1, 2006
Location: Hopefully inside a giant virtual Hogwarts soon!
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QUOTE Now, this is really enlightning! You never tried, but you know exactly where the problems are... ...Sorry, i just spat a cup of coffe into my keyboard...
Yes, I agree, my experience, if I try it could indeed be different than I might expect. But I said that wrong - I know the basics behind Linux, just not the experience.
QUOTE But why not just click on the 'download new software' button and get a legal codec from the net? Most distro's dont have this codec - people don't want them. It is proprietary and infested with patents. In the F/OSS world, we usually use something called Ogg Vorbis - thats a set of free codecs, that compress audio and video just as much as MPEG, but plays back in a much better quality.
OGG Vorbis is a great open source format. I know a bit about it. But this is pretty messed up when you realise that you may want to stream mp3 music off the net.
QUOTE First, the use of Linux. If you look here you can see the use of the Apache webserver. Now, who's the big player? Whenever you hear that "The Internet is down", well, then it's really only the just-short-of-20% thingy that doesen't work. The rest is fine.
Internet compatability is perfectly fine, apart from Windows-only add-ons (rare).
QUOTE Linux supports more hardware than.. well, your favourite, and there is quite a impressive software compatibillity too. If you insist on running Win software on another system (how easy is that on a Mac? Or Solaris? Or...) ok, then you have to use Wine. But it's quite userfriendly, and it does NOT slow the software down!
But most of the time, you can simply replace a bit of Win software with a direct replacement. Here is a list. It may not be complete - new programs are added every day!
I've got to split this quote up, because I feel that I've got to spill some coffee as well - although I have a laptop, and it can't be replaced. So maybe not.
QUOTE Linux supports more hardware than.. well, your favourite, and there is quite a impressive software compatibillity too.
Impressive software compatability?
*COUGH*
I'll go through this thouroughly.
Let's start off with digital audio workstations, or DAWs.
Cubase: Mac or Windows.
Protools: Mac or Windows.
Ableton Live: Mac or Windows.
Sonar: Windows only.
Logic: Mac only.
FL: Windows only.
Acid: Windows only.
Reason: Mac or Windows.
That's about all the DAWs I can think of - and by the way, I do quite a bit of music. I checked these up just to make sure.
We can try 3d modelling, if you wish. I've got a link, as well:
http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Comparison_of_3d_tools
I count 7/16 that support Linux, 12/16 that support Mac, and 16/16 that support Windows.
Better, but still less than half.
And hardware...are you trying to say that Linux supports Windows drivers? Though, things such as graphics cards, and many other things, will have suppor for Linux indirectly - eg. OpenGL on graphics cards.
QUOTE If you...But it's quite userfriendly
User friendly? Well, I checked out the guide, and the first section in the documentation that actually led you through a simple example happened to be this:
http://www.winehq.org/site/docs/wineusr-gu...onfig-wine-main
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QUOTE and it does NOT slow the software down!
What, so Wine is an imaginary process? The first thing in computing history (make that in physics) to not use up some sort of energy?
Yeah.
And Wine is a complex set of programs, so it takes up more processing power. Not as much as an emulator would, but not something you would want to run 3ds Max through if you were doing a highly memory intensive project.
QUOTE But most of the time, you can simply replace a bit of Win software with a direct replacement. Here is a list. It may not be complete - new programs are added every day!
That utterly fails if you actually like a program. Sure, if you think all programs are the same, this may work, but I like Acid. Why on earth should I be forced to switch to a different application?
QUOTE Sorry, no. Thats what you believe about it. And, i think you have been subjected to some serious misinformation.
Compatability? No, I think I have shown I know a little about that. I know nothing of the Linux experience - and it could be absolutely wonderful. But many of my apps simply would not work.
Keep in mind that Wine is still in experimental stages, as well. Failures are abound.
QUOTE May i humbly suggest that you try and download a Mandriva or a Ubuntu, and burn it on a empty CD? Put the finished CD in your CD or DVD drive and reboot the computer. If your BIOS is set to boot from CD/DVD (usually this is default) your machine will start a Linux. It will do so, without touching your harddisk. You can run the linux, play with all the software (and browse all the stuff that there isn't room for on the disc) - it will be a bit slow, as it runs out of the slowest part of your PC, but fully workable.
And when you've got enough, switch the machine off, and everything is gone. Just eject the CD, and your machine will be exactly as before you tried.
It only cost you a download and a empty CD. What you got to loose?
I once had a boot CD with Knoppix on it, but I never got round to trying it. More than likely I will some day, but I don't particularly need to right now.
I'm very sorry if you feel i have been rough on you. But i think it will be better for you if you actually try the stuff. And then comment.
I like Linux. At the moment, i have 8 computers running it, and i have used it for over 10 years. I have to use... other... machines at work - and it's a daily joy to arrive home at some computers that don't make trouble!
I guess I've been a little sarcastic myself? And don't worry, I don't get all depressed when someone tells me off. 
You know, I have not had a single whisper of a problem with Vista. Unusual? Maybe. But so what? If I don't have a problem, it doesn't matter if others do.
And, if you'll please excuse me - i got a excellent game of Doom3 going on one of the other machines... And without Wine!
But I would rather have Age of Mythology! Can I do that without Wine?
This post has been edited by Inny Binny: Jul 5 2008, 07:43 AM
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Jul 6 2008, 05:41 AM
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Rat Spleen Restocker at the Apothecary
Posts: 494
Joined: 2:25pm February 11, 2005
Location: Sonderborg, Denmark
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Oh dear, Inny.
QUOTE ...if I try it could indeed be different...
Yes, indeed. Then you would also have first-hand experience, instead of spreading FUD and hearsay.
I'm sorry, you neither know the basics nor the experience. If you like fiddeling with music, add Musix to the list. But try at least some of it, before you attempt to tell anyone how difficult it is.
I'll try'n do this quick:
- Without ever trying, you have problems streaming MP3's from the net. Try starting Amarok.
- Everyone have problems, Internet and everywhere else, with MS proprietary, patented extensions. While MS howls for interoperabillity, they do everything to prevent it. Please look trough the very impressive list of court cases and court orders, both from Europe and the U.S., that documents it.
- i think the crossover list speaks for itself?
- Why on earth would we use MS drivers for Linux? We have our own model, running servers instead of drivers. This is one of the direct reasons why it's difficult to topple a Linux kernel, and close to impossible to infect it with malware. And there is more hardware supported under Linux than under XP and Vista together. Only place where it's difficult, is certain WLAN cards - as the producer won't release the specs, apparently due to pressure from MS. There you can use ndiswrapper to use the MS driver.
By the way - we never, ever found out why it takes a 10Mb driver for a network card....
- The Wine manual? Sigh. Instead of digging the most difficult way into the pile, just start winefile. Then you are in a well-known environment. Take it from there.
- Let me be more precise. A Linux box has concidereable less hardware needs than a MS box, so even with wine, a program run on the same hardware will be as fast or faster than on a Win box. Wine is not a large program, doing a enormous number of things, but a large collection of MS system calls that are one by one translated to Linux system calls. The problems with some parts are again due to MS's approach to 'interoperabillity'...
- You want Linux to run MS software natively. Linux is not a MS clone (Try FreeWin), but a Unix-like system. If you, come hell or high tide, want to run a MS program, run it under MS win if you don't want to use Wine. Linux let you do that too: it has absolutely no objections to you running a dual-boot system. Or, if you have a multiprocessor machine, to install MSWin on a virtual machine and run it in a seperate window. Oh, sorry, your Vista license will probably not allow you to do that...
Again, please try! Then after you tried, feel free to hate Linux. Then you'll hate it on merit, not due to FUD and hearsay. I am forced to work with MS on the job (a bit hard on a old *nix geek), but we all agree Vista has no place in a production/office environment. But that conclusion came out of testing the stuff. And i don't really see a need to post everywhere how bad it is: i just don't buy the stuff.
No one will tell you how to choose: you of course use what OS and software you like. But please remember, that Mac's and Linux has given you something that MS desperately atempts to take away from you: the freedom to choose for yourself.
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Jul 7 2008, 07:10 PM
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Shopping for a New Firebolt
Posts: 805
Joined: 1:52am November 1, 2006
Location: Hopefully inside a giant virtual Hogwarts soon!
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I completely understand that Linux does not, and should not in any way, adhere to Windows standards. Neither does Mac, and it certainly should not either. And it does not make either of them at all worse for it.
However, that is the reason that I would not use either. My favourite programs do not work with Linux.
And with Wine? I don't want to waste time downloading all these apps just to make things work - games, programs (many don't work properly anyway), MP3s (which are NOT MS proprietry - and I don't want to spend a day waiting for my music collection to convert to Ogg Vorbis either), DVDs (another thing I've heard that doesn't work 'out-of-the-box', and a search confirmed that), etc.
But I find that my favourite app doesn't work anyway.
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?...on&iId=5471
And another - well, it runs, but pathetically by the sounds of it:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?...on&iId=7388
It gets better with Google Earth - still not good enough, however:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?...n&iId=11987
Crashes and burns when it gets to an HP video game though:
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?...TestingId=21403
Things that did seem to work were NoteWorthy Composer (mostly), WinRAR, Age of Mythology and HPCS videogame.
Hey - who knows? They might all work in the stable version.
But anyway, you can probably see why I wouldn't use it. I will try it at some point (and as I have said, it maybe be amazing - the user experience, anyway) though.
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Jul 8 2008, 02:57 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner
Posts: 229
Joined: 11:54am June 3, 2007
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QUOTE(Inny Binny @ Jul 8 2008, 01:10 AM) And with Wine? I don't want to waste time downloading all these apps just to make things work - games, programs (many don't work properly anyway), MP3s (which are NOT MS proprietry - and I don't want to spend a day waiting for my music collection to convert to Ogg Vorbis either), DVDs (another thing I've heard that doesn't work 'out-of-the-box', and a search confirmed that), etc.
I don't want to be dragged into this, but all the above are misconceptions I'd like to clear up. MP3 are indeed proprietary, just not owned by Microsoft - but you can still play them on linux very easily, I recommend amarok. I've also never had problems running DVDs on linux and there's no reason why you should, unless it's a badly made one
Anyway, for the record, I've used all three systems - two of them on a day to day basis - and I'm not going to take sides
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