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Why do They love Snape?, Is it a Sex Thing? Or something else in his character? |
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Jul 23 2008, 07:44 AM
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Scribbulus Everchanging Inks Changer
  
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Location: Texas

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I've been noticing something for a while now and was wondering if anyone else has noticed it. In any debate on Snape there are always those who defend him against all criticism. It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of his supporters are women. Obviously, a user name doesn't automatically indicate a person's sex, but of those we do know, this seems to be the case. There are exceptions to this, of course. There are men who will justify any action of Snape's and there are women who are quite critical of him. But it is undeniable that more women sympathize with him than do men.
I have a friend who thinks this is because of the "bad boy syndrome." Many women are attracted to the bad guy. They believe that if they had had the opportunity they could have "fixed" him and he would have changed for her. I don't know if this is the case for some women, but I really think that it is too simplistic an answer. I have learned over the years that men and women definitely think differently. Women are from Venus and men are from Mars. Men tend to think rationally using logic and women tend to think using emotions and feelings.
So what do you think? Why do most women seem to defend Snape while most men are critical?
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"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Albus Dumbledore
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Jul 23 2008, 08:03 AM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron
 
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Location: in Gryffindor common room, reading DH :-)

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You noticed a very interessing phenomenon. Well, I don't have the answer, of course, but I can speak of my own feelings and notions. I'm a woman, and although I wouldn't defend Snape against every criticism, I can explain how I feel about him and how I see him.
First of all, I find him very fascinating. I guess, he is such a mysterious person that I feel attracted by him even though he doesn't seem to be a nice person. Somehow, I feel that if I would be able to get behind his mask and his defending mechanims of arrogance and aggression, I would find quite a weak, helpless and sad man. So, I have a mask of a seemingly strong man with a 'soft core'. The first gives me (as a woman) the feeling that this man would be able to protect me against harm because he is so aggressive. I mean, if he would be on my side I could be sure that noone would dare to harm me! On the other side, I feel attracted by this 'lonely child' in his inside, it somehow triggers my 'motherly feelings'. I would like to hold him and comfort him and protect him. It's weird somehow, isn't it?
And then, I have to say, I think that Alan Rickman is so damn hot, so his performance and his persons somehow mixes into that story as well. He is such a charismatic and mysterious actor which I find very attractive as well.
And no, men are not always rational and women emotional. I feel, many men can be very much against something just because they don't like it without any rational reason at all, where many women can be very rational and down-to-earth in certain situations. Moreover, most women seem to know their feelings and thinkings better than most men. It's not all black and white. But of course, the sexual and emotional attraction to the other sex cannot always be explained to someone of the opposite sex. I just tried...
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Jul 23 2008, 09:17 AM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron

 
Posts: 436
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Location: shopping in Diagon Alley

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It's an interessing topic, but I will also add that Snape is not the only character girls often tend to defend, Draco, Lucius are also popular...
First of all I will say I doubt I'd defent anything Snape did before I read DH, but I feel that after I read DH and got to know what he'd been through, I understood why he acted the way he did, and therefor I often will defend his actions,
so I guess this is much about feelings woman are often more in touch with their feelings, and understand emotions better than some men, so I guess more women understood him better!?
There is also more girls in the fandom, just thought I should mention that..
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 One who doesn't have determenation doesn't have a future...
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Jul 23 2008, 10:12 AM
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Dumbledore's Personal Secretary


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Great thread harrydavid !  I have a sneaking feeling I'm one of the women that prompted this thread, but that is another matter.
Let me start by saying that while I don't find Snape attractive, I do find him interesting. I absolutely abhor him for some of the things he did, but admire him for some others. I would be the last to say that he was perfect or even anywhere near it, but I would say that he wasn't a man with no redeemable quality whatsoever either.
As to why I admire him for some things, firstly, he is one of those few people who can do things that are extremely unpleasant, but have to be done nonetheless. This is not a very feminine reason, more of a purely functional and matter-of-fact aspect, but it is one of mine.
Secondly, I know this is going to sound totally weird, but he sorts of gives me a feeling of security. You'd know that if he was on your side, any harm would befall you only after he was dead. This is a macabre way of putting it, but it conveys what I want to say. This may be a feminine way of looking at things, I don't know; for which woman doesn't want security ? Not necessarily from a man, but from circumstances. The knowledge that there is someone on your side who will do his utmost for you is reassuring, especially when that person is extremely intelligent, competent and courageous, and Snape is all of that.
Thirdly, Snape does have that forlorn sad-little-boy look about him. It is in abeyance most of the time, no doubt, especially when he is being nasty to all and sundry, but sometimes, we can see glimpses of it when he lets his guard down and perhaps that appeals to my feminine emotional or soft or whatever nature. However, I don't for a moment think I might be able to change him or anything like that, he's too pig-headed for that IMO.
That's as far as I'm concerned, but I wouldn't like to state why other women like him because tastes are highly different and so are ways of looking at things.
This post has been edited by rowena r: Jul 23 2008, 10:16 AM
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W L Y J
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Jul 23 2008, 11:42 AM
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Snape's Supreme Protector
  
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Location: At the secret Snape Command, preparing my minions as Supreme Protector!














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Defend him at all cost? Me? Never !
He is, in my opinion, the best written character I've ever come across! So many others are rather black and white and are easy to explain. All good, all bad, and the grey ones are easy to define. Snape is so complex. Your given just enough info that you can go one way or the other on his motivations, reasons, character, loves, hates, and anything else you can think of. The fact is that there is no smoking gun to prove what his true self was. Almost every defence of he's good or he's bad that anyone uses is solely based on our interpretation of the text (which can be interpreted rightfully either way)!
Plus, I know that Alan and how he portrays him in the movies has had a large influence on my feelings about the character. I could swear he put a curse on me many years ago!
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Fellow Leaky Wendell has recently promoted me to Snape's Supreme Protector!
All hail Supreme Protector SnapetheGood!!!!!!!!!
I soooooooooooooo love the man in black!
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Jul 23 2008, 12:20 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher
 
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QUOTE(rowena r) Let me start by saying that while I don't find Snape attractive, I do find him interesting. I absolutely abhor him for some of the things he did, but admire him for some others. I would be the last to say that he was perfect or even anywhere near it, but I would say that he wasn't a man with no redeemable quality whatsoever either.
That's what I think, too. Actually, I don't know whether I would like to have anything to do with a man like him in real life, but I surely adore him as a character. He's deep, flawed, human. His tragic story and his ambiguous nature show a kind of "epic quality" which I admire a lot.
For what concerns me, I don't want to "defend him at all costs". He has done lots of awful things. But in the end, he has demonstrated the willingness and the courage to make up for his errors and be faithful to his love, and that's what "redeems" him in my eyes.
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Jul 23 2008, 12:47 PM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron

 
Posts: 421
Joined: 1:35am January 6, 2007

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I am male, and I don't understand defending Snape either. I do understand that people would want to understand him, but excusing his behavior based on that understanding makes no sense to me. That is because in the end he still bullied children, and was dismissive and/or cruel to the adults in his life as well (except Dumbledore generally). He disrespected the dead and lied quite often (including 1/2 truths and blatant lies) and while I love sarcasm, he was written so as to use it in 'the wrong place at the wrong time' situations for the most part. Also I note that "understanding" Snape generally includes finding fault with all of the other characters in HP that ever touched his life, including his peers and even the children he taught. That really says nothing about Snape himself in terms of the resultant individual and the choices he faced and made. That is because the conclusion is always "it negatively affected him" so he made a bad choice. Yeah, well, EVERY character in canon had lots of things negatively affect them and they didn't all choose to make bad choices. And some people were not negatively affected at all that we know of (i.e. Lucius, Bella) and they made a bad choice anyway. So the "understanding" process seems deeply flawed to me.
So I look at the facts and conclude that the character was purposely written to be unlikeable (as the author has indicated, and even expressed surprised that some readers liked him), and I do dislike him as the author intended. Also, I don't find his story tragic because I feel that when a person is responsible for their own misfortune, it is simply pitiful, not tragic. Especially when the person continues to make their life difficult by exhibiting a bad attitude and poor behavior. I do also see a sad, bitter, vindictive, vunerable and insecure man behind the facade he employs, but that seems contrary to the notion of him being a protector - but rather one who requires protecting - so I don't really understand the thought process in that regard.
Snape reminds me of a bad chief executive officer of a corporation. Intelligent and questing to get ahead at the cost of all else around him, including other people - with the exception of perhaps his own family. Sure he is a great protector under normal circumstances, but when the chips are down, he will even betray his family to achieve his most desired goals and allow harm to come to them as well. And there is ever the risk of the 'protector' being caught out and taken away (jailed or whatever) so it is a kind of false protection. This is like Snape; in his quest to honor Lily who he claims he loves, he will do anything, but his personal, selfish desires come first which is why he could mistreat Harry and still claim to be honoring Lily - when that was actually disrespect and dishonoring her. He could even agree to give a message sending Harry to his death, the thing Lily had died to avoid, in order to follow his own desires.
So I don't really understand the defenses or excuses made for Snape and the idea of him being a great defender is lost on me in light of the above paragraph, so I am still pretty much at a loss about it all.
This post has been edited by wickedboy: Jul 23 2008, 12:55 PM
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In Every Age, A Hero Rises...

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Jul 23 2008, 07:04 PM
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Snape's Supreme Protector
  
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QUOTE(wickedboy @ Jul 23 2008, 05:47 PM)  I am male, and I don't understand defending Snape either. I do understand that people would want to understand him, but excusing his behavior based on that understanding makes no sense to me. That is because in the end he still bullied children, and was dismissive and/or cruel to the adults in his life as well (except Dumbledore generally). He disrespected the dead and lied quite often (including 1/2 truths and blatant lies) and while I love sarcasm, he was written so as to use it in 'the wrong place at the wrong time' situations for the most part. Also I note that "understanding" Snape generally includes finding fault with all of the other characters in HP that ever touched his life, including his peers and even the children he taught. That really says nothing about Snape himself in terms of the resultant individual and the choices he faced and made. That is because the conclusion is always "it negatively affected him" so he made a bad choice. Yeah, well, EVERY character in canon had lots of things negatively affect them and they didn't all choose to make bad choices. And some people were not negatively affected at all that we know of (i.e. Lucius, Bella) and they made a bad choice anyway. So the "understanding" process seems deeply flawed to me. So I look at the facts and conclude that the character was purposely written to be unlikeable (as the author has indicated, and even expressed surprised that some readers liked him), and I do dislike him as the author intended. Also, I don't find his story tragic because I feel that when a person is responsible for their own misfortune, it is simply pitiful, not tragic. Especially when the person continues to make their life difficult by exhibiting a bad attitude and poor behavior. I do also see a sad, bitter, vindictive, vunerable and insecure man behind the facade he employs, but that seems contrary to the notion of him being a protector - but rather one who requires protecting - so I don't really understand the thought process in that regard. Snape reminds me of a bad chief executive officer of a corporation. Intelligent and questing to get ahead at the cost of all else around him, including other people - with the exception of perhaps his own family. Sure he is a great protector under normal circumstances, but when the chips are down, he will even betray his family to achieve his most desired goals and allow harm to come to them as well. And there is ever the risk of the 'protector' being caught out and taken away (jailed or whatever) so it is a kind of false protection. This is like Snape; in his quest to honor Lily who he claims he loves, he will do anything, but his personal, selfish desires come first which is why he could mistreat Harry and still claim to be honoring Lily - when that was actually disrespect and dishonoring her. He could even agree to give a message sending Harry to his death, the thing Lily had died to avoid, in order to follow his own desires. So I don't really understand the defenses or excuses made for Snape and the idea of him being a great defender is lost on me in light of the above paragraph, so I am still pretty much at a loss about it all. 
Just to the bolded portion. The difference is that many of the other characters in HP had a "door" to escape the harsh times. A way out usually in the form of a person. If you look closely, you'll see that these people had a friend to pull them out, Sirius had James, Harry had Ron, DD had family. While those you say didn't have hard life had people to pull them deaper into their upbringing, Bella had Lus. You see a pattern. It is a strong family connection or a ffiend that pull them out or prevent them from falling. You also see that a boy had a male friend to help them. As I have said elsewhere, Snape would take the influence of another boy his age over Lily's and it would have a stronger pull on him then her's as well. Any boy would be more influnced by a male his age then that of a girl, even if he loved her (remember he's 11, not 14).
But back on topic, I don't think that the majority of people changed their basic view of DD even after the last book. I mean that most still think him pretty good and most think his intentions were pure. Snape has been all up and down on the good vs evil line, as well as the intention spectrum.
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Fellow Leaky Wendell has recently promoted me to Snape's Supreme Protector!
All hail Supreme Protector SnapetheGood!!!!!!!!!
I soooooooooooooo love the man in black!
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Jul 24 2008, 12:24 AM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron

 
Posts: 421
Joined: 1:35am January 6, 2007

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QUOTE(SnapetheGood @ Jul 23 2008, 08:04 PM)  QUOTE(wickedboy @ Jul 23 2008, 05:47 PM)  I am male, and I don't understand defending Snape either. I do understand that people would want to understand him, but excusing his behavior based on that understanding makes no sense to me. That is because in the end he still bullied children, and was dismissive and/or cruel to the adults in his life as well (except Dumbledore generally). He disrespected the dead and lied quite often (including 1/2 truths and blatant lies) and while I love sarcasm, he was written so as to use it in 'the wrong place at the wrong time' situations for the most part. Also I note that "understanding" Snape generally includes finding fault with all of the other characters in HP that ever touched his life, including his peers and even the children he taught. That really says nothing about Snape himself in terms of the resultant individual and the choices he faced and made. That is because the conclusion is always "it negatively affected him" so he made a bad choice. Yeah, well, EVERY character in canon had lots of things negatively affect them and they didn't all choose to make bad choices. And some people were not negatively affected at all that we know of (i.e. Lucius, Bella) and they made a bad choice anyway. So the "understanding" process seems deeply flawed to me. So I look at the facts and conclude that the character was purposely written to be unlikeable (as the author has indicated, and even expressed surprised that some readers liked him), and I do dislike him as the author intended. Also, I don't find his story tragic because I feel that when a person is responsible for their own misfortune, it is simply pitiful, not tragic. Especially when the person continues to make their life difficult by exhibiting a bad attitude and poor behavior. I do also see a sad, bitter, vindictive, vunerable and insecure man behind the facade he employs, but that seems contrary to the notion of him being a protector - but rather one who requires protecting - so I don't really understand the thought process in that regard. Snape reminds me of a bad chief executive officer of a corporation. Intelligent and questing to get ahead at the cost of all else around him, including other people - with the exception of perhaps his own family. Sure he is a great protector under normal circumstances, but when the chips are down, he will even betray his family to achieve his most desired goals and allow harm to come to them as well. And there is ever the risk of the 'protector' being caught out and taken away (jailed or whatever) so it is a kind of false protection. This is like Snape; in his quest to honor Lily who he claims he loves, he will do anything, but his personal, selfish desires come first which is why he could mistreat Harry and still claim to be honoring Lily - when that was actually disrespect and dishonoring her. He could even agree to give a message sending Harry to his death, the thing Lily had died to avoid, in order to follow his own desires. So I don't really understand the defenses or excuses made for Snape and the idea of him being a great defender is lost on me in light of the above paragraph, so I am still pretty much at a loss about it all.  Just to the bolded portion. The difference is that many of the other characters in HP had a "door" to escape the harsh times. A way out usually in the form of a person. If you look closely, you'll see that these people had a friend to pull them out, Sirius had James, Harry had Ron, DD had family.
Who did Harry have for the first 11 years of his life at the Dursleys while they were abusing him? Bella and Lucius had help, I agree, but they went bad anyway - so the point is, having someone didn't help them.
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In Every Age, A Hero Rises...

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Jul 24 2008, 03:35 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher

 
Posts: 157
Joined: 6:00pm May 31, 2008
Location: In a dark tunnel is where you'll find me, underneath the roots of bad tempered tree

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QUOTE Who did Harry have for the first 11 years of his life at the Dursleys while they were abusing him? Bella and Lucius had help, I agree, but they went bad anyway - so the point is, having someone didn't help them.
We've all heard of the term when referring to someone as a "bad apple". The environment around the person does have an influence, but it can also come from within ie genetics, your own choices etc etc. But like a bad apple, you can get rid of the bad bits, and you're left with a perfectly good apple.
In regards to the attraction, Snape is a complex man. I think that some female attraction re Snape is typical "bad boy syndrome", hence why others absolutely love the Malfoy's! Women are traditionally the more nurturing of the two sexes, so i think its natural for some females to try to 'help him' and 'cure' his faults with undying affection.
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"Don't worry. You're just as sane as I am."
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