Alchemy in Harry Potter III, Part Three |
 Jan 26 2006, 04:10 PM
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Diagon Alley Magical Bricklayer  Posts: 2,876 Joined: 8:17pm June 28, 2005 Location: waiting on summer   |
Time again to start a new thread in Alchemy.
Here's the link to part II Alchemy 2 Over and onward through the red stage... hpaddict - LL Mod -------------------- "
It's not just the books under fire now that worry me. It is the books that will never be written. The books that will never be read. And all due to the fear of censorship. As always, young readers will be the real losers." J. Blume |
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Jan 26 2006, 05:02 PM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter  Posts: 2,025 Joined: 7:49pm July 26, 2005 Location: I root for the Lily & Stag! |
QUOTE The answers came as allegory and allegorical imagery, which hid, from the uninitiated what was being discussed and shared amongst them....made much of the alchemist’s art impenetrable because these processes were mystical as well as chemical I think the fact that the alchemists conversed through pictures was interesting in and of itself without addressing the symbolism. You could definitely make the argument that members of the order did a bit of this when they communicated through Patronus (Patroni?). While we don't know the exact mechanics involved, we do know that the communication could not be altered, intercepted, or understood by anyone who did not know the tactic (was a part of the guild, if you will). A patronus sounds pretty mystical to me... Yes, it's a bit of a stretch, but I think ultimately a feasible one. -------------------- |
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Jan 26 2006, 07:41 PM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd  |
Well, add that to the fact that as far as the elements went, what one alchemist called "mercury" might mean something completely different to another. For example, any metal that was shiny was called "mercury," and that includes most metals. Any substance that was combustible was a "sulfur" and anything resistant to fire was a "salt." It's a wonder they could figure each other out! Maybe that's why Valentine's 12 Keys has never really been "translated."
-------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Jan 27 2006, 06:29 AM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 439 Joined: 6:23pm November 12, 2005 Location: In the capital of Europe |
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Jan. 27 2006,1:41 am) Well, add that to the fact that as far as the elements went, what one alchemist called "mercury" might mean something completely different to another. For example, any metal that was shiny was called "mercury," and that includes most metals. Any substance that was combustible was a "sulfur" and anything resistant to fire was a "salt." It's a wonder they could figure each other out! Maybe that's why Valentine's 12 Keys has never really been "translated." The difficulty for alchemic langage is to speak of matters for which there is no langage that exists ! For the link of eagle to draco, there are pictures of dragons with wings : at the end of the stage, the same dragons are given some. [quote=memyslfnI @ Jan. 26 2006,4:49 pm] The single rose, is in essence, a symbol of completion, of consummate achievement and perfection. Hence, accruing to it are all those ideas associated with these qualities: the mystic Centre, the heart, the garden of Eros, the paradise of Dante, the beloved, the emblem of Venus and so on. More precise symbolic meanings are derived from the colour and number of its petals. The relationship of the white rose to the red is in accordance with the relationship between the two colours as defined in alchemy. The blue rose is symbolic of the impossible. The golden rose is a symbol of absolute achievement. When the rose is round in shape, it corresponds in significance to the mandala. The seven-petalled rose alludes to the septenary pattern (that is, the seven Directions of Space, the seven days of the week, the seven planets, the seven degrees of perfection). It is in this sense that it appears in emblem DCCXXIII of the Ars Symbolica of Bosch and in the Summum Bonum of Robert Fludd. The eight-petalled rose symbolizes regeneration.[6] Again, this all comes from the link provided by doobie. While I do not specifically remember a rose mentioned (anyonehave the books with them?) at DD's funeral, in the deluxe slipcased edition with the many pages of Mary Grand Pre's artwork there is a single rose on her drawing of DD's white tomb. It could signify DD's completed work, his perfection, his reaching of the enlightenment stage. to all those who believe Dd is alive, An eight petaled rose signifies regeneration...[quote] We spoke of rose in the posts 107 & 108 Alchimy part II. The sword is associated to this stage, that is why (may be) the the spell Sectumsempra is similair to the use of a sword. (the wounds are like the one made by an invisible sword). This sword is assimilaed to sulphur and solar power which emerges from Harry, becoming a knigth, and behaving more like a protecting man towards Ginny. The rose, or the Fleur, is seen growing from the stone (Flamel) and is assimilated to the fire. -------------------- “Inexpressible, Indicible, you that only silence names.” (Poïmandres)
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Jan 27 2006, 03:57 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 218 Joined: 4:20pm May 3, 2005 Location: Indiana |
I bet that the "flowery" smell from Harry's amortentia potion is a rose. I also bet that roses and lily's will be the main wedding flowers.
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Jan 29 2006, 06:49 AM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
QUOTE We spoke of rose in the posts 107 & 108 Alchimy part II. The sword is associated to this stage, that is why (may be) the the spell Sectumsempra is similair to the use of a sword. (the wounds are like the one made by an invisible sword). I think the rose is also a symbol of Freemasonry, and of the goddess. In the 6th stage, the king and queen also hold roses, one white and one red. They represent the masculine and feminine. QUOTE While I do not specifically remember a rose mentioned (anyonehave the books with them?) at DD's funeral, in the deluxe slipcased edition with the many pages of Mary Grand Pre's artwork there is a single rose on her drawing of DD's white tomb. I can't quite make out what color it's supposed to be. That might tell us something. Thoughts? QUOTE I bet that the "flowery" smell from Harry's amortentia potion is a rose. I also bet that roses and lily's will be the main wedding flowers. When Harry first smells the Amorentia in Slughorn's class, he recognizes it as something from the Burrow but can't put his finger on it. Of course, it was Ginny, but he didn't know that. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Jan 30 2006, 09:13 AM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
QUOTE The sword is associated to this stage, that is why (may be) the the spell Sectumsempra is similair to the use of a sword. (the wounds are like the one made by an invisible sword). This sword is assimilaed to sulphur and solar power which emerges from Harry, becoming a knigth, and behaving more like a protecting man towards Ginny. The rose, or the Fleur, is seen growing from the stone (Flamel) and is assimilated to the fire. That may be, but since DD 's death being the ultimate selfless act I am more inclined to think it is the completion of his alchemical work.. Dumbledores perfection. The journey is over. The picture, as I said above , shows the steady stream of arrows overhead which also is a symbol of seperation. -------------------- |
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OPAST|
Jan 30 2006, 10:00 PM
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Assistant to Nicholas Flammel Posts: 2,201 Joined: 3:46pm July 20, 2005 Location: peering over at M's and Ari's cheat notes! |
It wouldn't be the alchemy thread unless someone changes focus-
 anyway I was going to post this just prior to the thread move to III- anyway Draco and the eagle owl- I went searching and found this I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. Job 30: 29 I find this very intriguing even if he did lead to a dead end for with all the searching the only thing I found noteworthy with the eagle owl was this Russian common name of the Little Owl (Domovoy Sych; Athene noctua). Traditionally, little owls have been disliked and feared by people believing that these birds announce deaths The "announcement" ties into the dream Harry has, were he rides an eagle owl- the announcement of a dead DE- I believe the thread of Harry's Visionary Dreams goes further on this but not much more. So even if Eagle Owl has served it's purpose(the dream) what is the connection of dragons and owls- the only parallel I can draw is the baslisk and the crows?? Is there another bird parallel to dragons??? :conf: -------------------- spirited member of Vault
 717 RIP ~OPAST"I reject your reality and substitute my own"~Mythbusters |
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Jan 31 2006, 08:54 AM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
From http://keshi.com/animal_medicine/index.html:
QUOTE Owls can see what others cannot and this is a large part of Owl medicine. Owl’s ability to do this reminds us of the importance of both worlds: the physical as well as the spiritual, perhaps the known and the unknown. Our willingness and courage to transform the unknown in ourselves into the known is a true source of wisdom. The Zuni Pueblo people call the owl “the Night Grandfather” because he does his work at night. Clairvoyant properties and uncovering deception have always been associated with Owl. Its connection with wisdom comes from Owl’s ability to discern that which cannot be “seen.” From http://www.spelwerx.com/animal_correspondences.html: QUOTE Teaches us to silently observe life, and gather information to gain understanding. I'm not finding anything on dragons AND owls. To the alchemists, birds in general represented the human soul undergoing spiritual development because they crossed the planes of the earth and the heavens. According to the Alchemy Website: QUOTE The birds as symbols mediate between the physical and spiritua1 worlds, they reflect certain archetypal experiences encountered by the soul in its development through the alchemical process.
These symbols were used in two ways. Firstly, as a description in a text of one aspect of the process. Thus the alchemist might indicate a certain process as the Pelican stage, and describe certain facets of this by using perhaps other symbols, Secondly, these bird symbols could be used as a subject matter for a meditation, and by inwardly building such a symbol, one connected in soul with the essential experience of the particular stage of the alchemical-soul process. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Jan 31 2006, 01:31 PM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
QUOTE am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. Job 30: 29 the interpretation of this I have found is: "I am the wild beast that desires solitary spaces" interestingly enough The research I have done points out that the meaning of "dragons" in that statement has been changed to "jackals"This was interesting regarding dragons: The ancient story of the Dragon concerns the Golden Apples of the Hesperides and Heracles' Eleventh Labor (Hercules). The eleventh task of Heracles was to steal the golden apples from the apple tree which Gaia (Mother Earth) had given to Hera, Queen of the Heavens, at her wedding to Zeus. It is a link to gold (golden apples) and alchemy. Symbolocally Hercules must get past many tasks to get these "golden apples" (we see this in the golden fleece tales in mythology as well) -------------------- |
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