Alchemy in Harry Potter, Part V |
 Nov 22 2006, 12:07 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower  Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower    |
Please discuss the possible meanings of Alchemy here.
Old thread can be found Here. --------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
 |
  
 
|
|
Nov 24 2006, 01:02 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories  Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
QUOTE memyslfnI Nov 22 2006, 10:44 AM Post #477 excellent post! i agree whole heartedly because in alchemy there is a integral step to create the stone called Putrification. Harry is beaten down, he loses his parents through betrayal, he witnesses Cedric's death, He is ridiculed, he sees his god father die and then loses his mentor in Dumbledore. He is stripped of all that he holds dear and yet, amazingly, he is reshaped (transformation) into the boy we see entering book seven. Harry, will suffer more, there is no doubt. But if alchemical principles hold, and through thousands and thousands of posts through the years on this forum we have so much evidence that it will hold true, harry will reach enlightenment and subseqenly, the joy he deserves as a result. In my mind, Harry deserves it. As you said above, this is a fairy tale. And most fairy tales have a happy ending! Yes, M! I have no doubt either that Harry will reach gold and enlightenment. He does deserve it, after everything he's been though. He deserves happiness. I just really hope he makes it. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
|
Nov 25 2006, 10:19 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower |
I agree I think Harry has deserved a good ending, I think it was Ron who even said in their Divination class. "You will suffer but you'll be happy about it"
-------------------- "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
|
|
|
|
Nov 25 2006, 02:35 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Assistant to Nicholas Flammel Posts: 2,201 Joined: 3:46pm July 20, 2005 Location: peering over at M's and Ari's cheat notes! |
yes Shard very true!
 Ron's dialogue is profane!ok speaking of suffering... We could equate the ' suffering' with passing through a phase. I mean chemical phase. Each ingredient in the alchemic stages are transformed- "suffering" before the next stage. So with saying that there is only one chemical that remains unchanged- Virtrol? correct??? So how does that leave Snape? and how does it leave Harry? -------------------- spirited member of Vault
 717 RIP ~OPAST"I reject your reality and substitute my own"~Mythbusters |
|
|
|
|
Nov 25 2006, 05:37 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 218 Joined: 4:20pm May 3, 2005 Location: Indiana |
In the on-going struggle to sort out salt, mercury, and sulpher, I had a new notion: that Harry’s first three friends – Hagrid, Ron, and Hermione represent the three types of people that the Pure-Blood Supremacists hate: Half-Breeds, Blood Traitors, and Mudbloods. Maybe they represent the three elements?
Perhaps Hagrid is the salt? He is a salt-of-the-earth kinda guy after all. Then Ron stays Sulphur and Hermione stays Mercury as some of us have thought. Maybe Harry is the alchemist who loves the three friends, and the peoples they represent, and because of this love builds a better world. This contrasts with Voldemort who wants to destroy all the peoples that Hagrid, Hermione, and Ron represent. This makes another point for the theory that “Voldemort is a bass-akwards alchemist.” A curious thing, but the "suffer but you will be happy about it" line was swapped in the movie with Ron saying it to Harry. However, in the book, Harry says it to Ron. I just grabbed this list from Wikipedia: QUOTE Beatitudes (from Latin, beatitudo, happiness) The poor (Matthew has poor in spirit). The text says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mourners (Luke has those who are weeping). The text says that they will be comforted (Luke has will laugh). The hungry (Matthew has hunger and thirst after righteousness). The text says that they will be filled (Luke has be satisfied). Those persecuted for seeking righteousness (rather than righteousness, Luke has followers of the Son of Man). The text says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven. The beatitudes only present in Matthew are: The meek. The text says that they will inherit the earth. The merciful. The text says that they will obtain mercy. The pure of heart. The text says that they will see God. The peacemakers. The text says that they will be called the children of God. They suffer, but they will be eventually happy about it. 
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 26 2006, 11:13 PM
Post
#6
|
|
Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter Posts: 2,026 Joined: 10:08pm June 16, 2005 Location: Salem School of Witchcraft & Wizardry,USA |
I agree that Hagrid is the slt of the Earth, but in Alchemy terms I think Sirius is salt. Sirius was the guide of the black stage.
QUOTE(Weasle Diva Posted Yesterday @ 04:37 PM ) A curious thing, but the "suffer but you will be happy about it" line was swapped in the movie with Ron saying it to Harry. However, in the book, Harry says it to Ron. Funny that Harry said this. Harry is the one who wants to give up, because the suffering becomes so great after Sirius' death. We suffer when we love and love is what will defeat LV. Plus the pay off of taking the chance and loving is great went it is equally returned. -------------------- There you go Sirius. Nothing rash. Kept my nose clean. Exactly the opposite of what you'd have done. . . .
~ OotP - pg. 12 "And dreams are the language of God. When he speaks in our language, I can interpert what he has said. But if he speaks in the language of the soul, it is only you who can understand." ~Paulo Coelho The Alchemist |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 10:29 AM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 34 Joined: 6:06pm November 20, 2006 |
QUOTE(Weasle Diva @ Nov 25 2006, 05:37 PM) [snapback]1014484[/snapback] Then Ron stays Sulphur. What are the reasons for thinking Ron is Sulphur? How is he marked as Sulphur alchemically? I know John Granger believes that he is but he never explains why he thinks so. -------------------- To invent this wizard world, I've learned a ridiculous amount about alchemy.... JKR, The Herald, 12/7/98
Do you read serious books about magic? I'm not a New Age type - not really into crystals. But through reading I know a ridiculous amount about magic…..sometimes it's absolutely hysterical the things people believe. –JKR, Sydney Morning Herald, 10/28/01 |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 10:41 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
QUOTE(redshoes @ Nov 27 2006, 10:29 AM) [snapback]1015758[/snapback] QUOTE(Weasle Diva @ Nov 25 2006, 05:37 PM) [snapback]1014484[/snapback] Then Ron stays Sulphur. What are the reasons for thinking Ron is Sulphur? How is he marked as Sulphur alchemically? I know John Granger believes that he is but he never explains why he thinks so. Sulfur represents the soul. Ron, as Gryffindor's keeper, "keeps" Harry's soul and turns it towards enlightenment. Ron keeps him on the true path. Also, Ron's middle name is Bilius. Bile is one of the four humours and is produced in the liver. Traditionally, the liver is the home of the soul. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 01:47 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 34 Joined: 6:06pm November 20, 2006 |
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Nov 27 2006, 10:41 AM) [snapback]1015764[/snapback] Sulfur represents the soul. Ron, as Gryffindor's keeper, "keeps" Harry's soul and turns it towards enlightenment. Ron keeps him on the true path. Also, Ron's middle name is Bilius. Bile is one of the four humours and is produced in the liver. Traditionally, the liver is the home of the soul. Very interesting. Thank you. What source did you find this in? I was actually wondering more about whether Ron is marked alchemically as Sulphur in any of the same ways that Hermione is marked as Mercury. To sum up all the markers JKR has given us for Hermione. Name Hermione is the female form of Hermes, the Greek god who corresponds to the Roman god Mercury. Hermes Trismegistus is traditionally considered the father of alchemy. The most common alternative name for alchemy itself is the Hermetic tradition, or Hermeticism. JKR has said she took the name Hermione from the character of Queen Hermione in Shakespeare'sThe Winter's Tale, which is a play based on alchemy. Hermione's initials--HG--correspond to the chemical sign for mercury (Hg). Birthdate and Sign Hermione was born on September 19, 1979, which was a Wednesday. When Emperor Constantine formalized the names of the days of the week in the 4th century A.D. Wednesday was named after Mercury (e.g., in French, mercredi, etc.). Curiously, even before JKR confirmed in an interview that Hermione's birth year was 1979 rather than 1980, attentive fans had been able to deduce that because of the way the word "Wednesday" appears, occasionally, in the same or following sentence with Hermione's name. Hermione's astrological sign is Virgo, which is ruled by the planet Mercury. Parents This one is a bit speculative, but I'll include it anyway. The only thing we know about Hermione's parents is that they are dentists. The principal ingredient in the amalgam fillings dentists used has long been mercury. Element In alchemy Mercury is the female, receptive, cool and moist principle, and corresponds to earth and water. Hermione is marked as earth both by her sign--Virgo is an earth sign--and her appearance--brown hair and brown eyes. I won't get into the role Hermione plays in HP, since that involves speculation, but I think that's enough to establish her definitively as Mercury. If Ron is Sulphur then you would expect to see confirmation of that in his birthday (March 1, 1980), but he is a Pisces, a water sign. Sulphur is the male, penetrative, hot and dry principle, and corresponds to fire and air. (As defined by Nicolas Flamel and others.) -------------------- To invent this wizard world, I've learned a ridiculous amount about alchemy.... JKR, The Herald, 12/7/98
Do you read serious books about magic? I'm not a New Age type - not really into crystals. But through reading I know a ridiculous amount about magic…..sometimes it's absolutely hysterical the things people believe. –JKR, Sydney Morning Herald, 10/28/01 |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 02:33 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
QUOTE Hermione is the female form of Hermes, the Greek god who corresponds to the Roman god Mercury. Hermes Trismegistus is traditionally considered the father of alchemy. The most common alternative name for alchemy itself is the Hermetic tradition, or Hermeticism. JKR has said she took the name Hermione from the character of Queen Hermione in Shakespeare'sThe Winter's Tale, which is a play based on alchemy. Don't forget Hermes Trismegistus, or Hermes Thrice Great (not the same as the Greek Hermes), who was the Egyptian god of writing and magic. He also wrote the Emerald Tablet, upon which all of the hermetic fields are based. Very interesting. Thank you. What source did you find this in? QUOTE Very interesting. Thank you. What source did you find this in? As far as Ron's middle name being Bilius, M found that at the Lexicon. As for the other, I honestly can't remember after almost two years! No one is arguing that Hermione is mercury. I won't argue that Ron is a water sign. But where would you place him if not sulfur? While astrology most likely does play a role in the series, according to the four humours, while bile is part of the water element, the part of the body it corresponds to is the soul. This post has been edited by Arianhrod: Nov 27 2006, 02:39 PM -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
|
|
|
