Alchemy in Harry Potter, Part VI: The Golden Child draws Nigh. |
 Feb 11 2007, 07:48 PM
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower  Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower    |
Part 6 of our on going discussion of the Alchemic presscense in Harry Potter story, what it means for the Journey Harry is on.
Previous threads: Alchemy and Harry Potter Part 1, Alchemy and Harry Potter part 2, Alchemy Part III, Part IV, and Part V I wanted to quote MemyselfnI list here: QUOTE(memyslfnI @ Feb 11 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]1097870[/snapback] I will add that we have done pretty well here using the methods of traditional, literalary and new age alchemy together that we have been using since before OotP came out. I would love to generate a list of things we spoke about that have come true or have become important in the series that have been posted by the wonderful alchemy posters, a few items we looked at before books five and six: the idea that seven will be important in the series sirius will die dumbledore will die The elements will be important and each house represents an element We also dissected the four humours and how they relate to the houses (Ron is billious (Bile) Fleur is Phlegm) harry will end up with ginny There will be a wedding in the series (chemical wedding (though Bill and Fleur were a suprise!) the idea of the quintessence and how Harry must balance the four elements (Harry reads Quintessence; A quest in HBP) We also spoke of the four Hallows in relation ot the grail quest (Quest for gold) I am not trying to brag, but I am just trying to get at the fact that we have a pretty good track record by embracing all alchemical theories and trying to expand on them or debate them in this thread. (And in the forum as a whole as well!) Have we been wrong? heck yeah! But its been a learning experience that I know I am grateful for! We have also touched on very specific elements using alchemy that could possibly come true in DH There will be a baby at the end of the series (and it will be a girl..Her name will use Spohia as its root) there will be a huge revelation at the wedding itself (Harry will have an epiphany of sorts) There will be an eclipse during the final book Harry will die and be reborn (not literally..a symbolic rebirth) Hagrid who marks the red stage will die anyone else want to take a stab adding to these two lists?  I think there are some excellent points to go over here with the two lists provided. Expecially the idea of an Eclipse and possible "rebirth" for Harry. I feel there will be a point where Harry is in his "darkest" hour everything eclipsed by fear and an certain death, only to have the "hopeful Sun" shine out. This post has been edited by Shard: Feb 11 2007, 07:55 PM --------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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Feb 11 2007, 08:41 PM
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Leaky's Resident Weasley Expert  Posts: 2,478 Joined: 8:52pm March 1, 2005 Location: Ravenclaw Common Room attempting to ACCIO Jason Mraz. |
What kind of metaphorical and alchemical significance is there in an eclipse?
I mean, I know there's the obvious, but is there anything else? -------------------- Check out my newest post DH R/Hr fics!~Or my author page!~One Big Happy Wealsey Family!~My Livejournal Avvie by rupert-grint.us |
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Feb 11 2007, 08:54 PM
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower |
I was thinking in the line of being in spritual Darkness, seeing things fall apart and Voldemort seemingly getting the upperhand. I've seen these kind of moments in other stories where for any amount of time the Hero thinks all is lost and that the villain has won. That's what I think of the Eclipse moment myself, another reason for this is the moment in the PoA movie where DD had said in even the darkest of hours, one only has to remember to turn on the light. He illustrates this by puting out the candle and then relighting it with a simple pass of the hand.
-------------------- "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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Feb 11 2007, 10:21 PM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
In many cultures the eclipse forshadows a natural disaster or the death of defeat of a ruler. In alchemy an eclipse is called "sol niger" and there is a beautiful drawing called "the Dark Sun" in the alchemical work called Splendor Solis
You can look at it here In ancient egypt an eclipse was thought to be the Eye of Horus. Horus IMHO, is where JKR got the term Horcrux. Horus (the child of the red king Osiris and the White Queen Isis in Egyptian Alchemy) is a symbol for death and ressurection. It is interesting that we learn about Horcruxes from Horace Slughorn. my thought is that the final battle of Harry and Lord Voldemort will come after or during a solar eclipse. The sun and moon will be equal, in alignment, and will symbolize the downfall of Lord Voldemort -------------------- |
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Feb 12 2007, 05:39 AM
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Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 665 Joined: 11:29am November 2, 2006 Location: HP fandom |
I agree with EW, I am really impressed by the lists of predictions. Of course we don´t know if the predictions from the second list come true, but already the things from the first list, wow. Brag on people.
 A few thoughts: - the wedding: If I understand it correctly, the alchemical wedding is between the Red King and the White Queen. But, are Bill and Fleur important enough, are they connected enough with Harry and his journey to pass for Red King/White Queen? - the baby: nice idea. But again, are Bill and Fleur important enough in the Hero´s journey to produce the alchemical child? It would be born at the end anyway and therefore I think it is sufficient to have a baby in the epilogue. Ron and Hermione could be one option for Red King/White Queen as well. We have several references to them as King (Weasley is our King) and Queen (Queen Slug Club), Harry dreaming of both of them as King and Queen. Is it completely impossible that Harry and Ginny are the Red King and White Queen? - I know the sibling theory and it never convinced me. Not in the least. Sorry. Apart from that: Having Harry and Hermione facing LV in the end corrupts two 'principles' of JKR´s writing. First: The trio friendship. Ron and Hermione are equal important sidekicks to Harry, who have contributed equally throughout six books. By the end of HBP, the trio is almost perfectly balanced, IMO. Elevating Hermione to co-heroine status in having her fight LV at Harry´s side, is nullifying this balance JKR has been working on so hard for six books. It destroys the carefully built up trio structure. And where is Ron in that scenario anyway? Second: The HP books are Harry´s hero journey, not Harry and Hermione´s journey. It has always been Harry alone (as in without his two best friends), who was in the final confrontation with LV in his various shapes (Quirrelmort, Diarymort, Babymort). In PS, CoS, GoF. In PoA and HBP there wasn´t this kind of final confrontation, in OotP Dumbledore was with him when he faced LV. If JKR is going to break this pattern - I don´t think she will, but let´s assume - it would be all three of them in the final confrontation. We already addressed the special wand core connection of the trio. This post has been edited by galadriel12: Feb 12 2007, 05:40 AM -------------------- Ron Weasley: Keeper, Knight and King JKR: "I don't think good books are written to a formula" JK Rowling Chat, AOL Live, May 4, 2000 |
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Feb 12 2007, 10:15 AM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
QUOTE - the baby: nice idea. But again, are Bill and Fleur important enough in the Hero´s journey to produce the alchemical child? It would be born at the end anyway and therefore I think it is sufficient to have a baby in the epilogue. Ron and Hermione could be one option for Red King/White Queen as well. We have several references to them as King (Weasley is our King) and Queen (Queen Slug Club), Harry dreaming of both of them as King and Queen. Is it completely impossible that Harry and Ginny are the Red King and White Queen? I think that its not how important they are to harry, but that they will be the start of a new cycle.(remember oroborus) the red King and White queen produce the stone. We usually see in alchemical images their death and regeneration through the hermaphroditic child of the sun and moon. Another name for the red king is the sun king. One of the clues that leads me to believe JKR is using Bill in this role is Bill's Occupation. Bill is a Gringott's bank curse breaker. Apollo (the Sun God or Sun King) is called the curse breaker. Fleur, with her white hair fulfills her role as the white queen. Would this have been my first choice? No. When we discussed the possibility of a wedding in the first alchemy thread, we thought it would be Hermione and Ron as the king and queen. But I read an interesting article on Harry Potter for Seekers that talks about the Weasley's and their symbolic role as the chakras. they surmise that Bill will be vital to Harry in the last book. We see him fight for the order and suffer terribly in book six and we also see Fleur stick by his side even in the face of terrible hardships. Her role changes dramatically from an object of ridicule to a strong woman who stands up to Molly and stands by Bill. She loves him and is willing to stay with him in spite of the fact that he has been bitten by a werewolf (even though he was not in that state, Lupin says there will be issues). If Bill and Fleur fulfill the role of the red king and white queen they will be vital to harry in book seven. This post has been edited by memyslfnI: Feb 12 2007, 01:49 PM -------------------- |
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Feb 12 2007, 10:18 AM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter  Posts: 2,025 Joined: 7:49pm July 26, 2005 Location: I root for the Lily & Stag! |
I agree, Bill & Fleur in themselves are not important enough to Harry to be THE Quarrelling Couple. However, I have a strong feeling that they do represent that imagery, and while it was already apparent Ron & Hermione were together at the end of HBP (IMHO, of course), I also think that something more significant will happen to draw the two of them together more apparently at that wedding. That days' activities are bound to be "anvil sized" hints, and not just about 'shipping.
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Feb 12 2007, 04:09 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 218 Joined: 4:20pm May 3, 2005 Location: Indiana |
I think a big flock of dementors all swooped together will make up the eclipse, literally eclipsing a soul.
I think Bill's role is to teach the trio about curse-breaking. He is a background character who will not usurp the trio's role in horcrux locating and breaking. My guess is that Harry will think that the Weasley tiara has horcrux potential. Bill studies the tiara and shows the trio what to look out for. The Egyptians, as a culture, went to great lengths to provide for an afterlife. Why wouldn't the Egyptian wizards be the first to explore horcrux-making? After all, many people were murdered/sacrificed to be companions to the Pharoah's. The tiara in the RoR is the real Ravenclaw horcrux, IMHO. |
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Feb 12 2007, 04:41 PM
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Fortescue's Spoon Polisher Posts: 3,539 Joined: 1:29pm March 16, 2005 |
I like your idea about Bill's role in DH using his skills as a curse breaker!!! Awesome as usual WD!!
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Feb 12 2007, 07:58 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 15 Joined: 11:02am January 29, 2005 |
Hey everyone,
Just a quick disclaimer: I know practically nothing about alchemy, so please excuse any ignorance I show in this thread. When looking at the pictures of the OOTP movie that came out recently, I noticed the words "potassa carbonate" above Harry's head when he was sitting in Snape's office. After a little research, I found out that potassa carbonate, or more commonly known as potash, is used in making an Angel Stone. The properties of the Angel Stone share quite a bit of similarities with the plot line of OOTP such as anger, out-of-body travel, and the fifth chakra. Here's the link: Information About Angel's Stone Also, I learned about Hermes Trismegistus, supposedly a father figure in Western Alchemy. As Wikipeida states about the man (source: Hermes Wikied) : "The so-called "Hermetic literature", the Hermetica, is a category of papyri containing spells and induction procedures. In the dialogue called the Asclepius (after the Greek god of healing) the art of imprisoning the souls of demons or of angels in statues with the help of herbs, gems and odors, is described, such that the statue could speak and prophesy." I would not be suprised if someone already figured this out, but just in case, this could be a big reason why JKR signed her name on the back of a statue of Hermes. -Lunar Tides -------------------- Call me naive, but though the only fact in our lives is that we will die, I'm a strong believer in having meaning in one's life and that life is more than just absurd. The Harry Potter series convinces me even more that my beliefs hold true, and enlightenment can be attained by looking past the "children's book" perception of this grand epic. I bow to thee Ms. Rowling.
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