I will add that we have done pretty well here using the methods of traditional, literalary and new age alchemy together that we have been using since before OotP came out.

I would love to generate a list of things we spoke about that have come true or have become important in the series that have been posted by the wonderful alchemy posters, a few items we looked at before books five and six:

the idea that seven will be important in the series
sirius will die
dumbledore will die
The elements will be important and each house represents an element
We also dissected the four humours and how they relate to the houses (Ron is billious (Bile) Fleur is Phlegm)
harry will end up with ginny
There will be a wedding in the series (chemical wedding (though Bill and Fleur were a suprise!)
the idea of the quintessence and how Harry must balance the four elements (Harry reads Quintessence; A quest in HBP)
We also spoke of the four Hallows in relation ot the grail quest (Quest for gold)

I am not trying to brag, but I am just trying to get at the fact that we have a pretty good track record by embracing all alchemical theories and trying to expand on them or debate them in this thread. (And in the forum as a whole as well!) Have we been wrong? heck yeah! But its been a learning experience that I know I am grateful for!

We have also touched on very specific elements using alchemy that could possibly come true in DH

There will be a baby at the end of the series (and it will be a girl..Her name will use Spohia as its root)
there will be a huge revelation at the wedding itself (Harry will have an epiphany of sorts)
There will be an eclipse during the final book
Harry will die and be reborn (not literally..a symbolic rebirth)
Hagrid who marks the red stage will die



anyone else want to take a stab adding to these two lists?

- the baby: nice idea. But again, are Bill and Fleur important enough in the Hero´s journey to produce the alchemical child? It would be born at the end anyway and therefore I think it is sufficient to have a baby in the epilogue. Ron and Hermione could be one option for Red King/White Queen as well. We have several references to them as King (Weasley is our King) and Queen (Queen Slug Club), Harry dreaming of both of them as King and Queen.
Is it completely impossible that Harry and Ginny are the Red King and White Queen?

I think a big flock of dementors all swooped together will make up the eclipse, literally eclipsing a soul.

I think Bill's role is to teach the trio about curse-breaking. He is a background character who will not usurp the trio's role in horcrux locating and breaking. My guess is that Harry will think that the Weasley tiara has horcrux potential. Bill studies the tiara and shows the trio what to look out for.

The Egyptians, as a culture, went to great lengths to provide for an afterlife. Why wouldn't the Egyptian wizards be the first to explore horcrux-making? After all, many people were murdered/sacrificed to be companions to the Pharoah's.

The tiara in the RoR is the real Ravenclaw horcrux, IMHO.

When looking at the pictures of the OOTP movie that came out recently, I noticed the words "potassa carbonate" above Harry's head when he was sitting in Snape's office. After a little research, I found out that potassa carbonate, or more commonly known as potash, is used in making an Angel Stone. The properties of the Angel Stone share quite a bit of similarities with the plot line of OOTP such as anger, out-of-body travel, and the fifth chakra. Here's the link: Information About Angel's Stone

I will add that we have done pretty well here using the methods of traditional, literalary and new age alchemy together that we have been using since before OotP came out.

I would love to generate a list of things we spoke about that have come true or have become important in the series that have been posted by the wonderful alchemy posters, a few items we looked at before books five and six:

the idea that seven will be important in the series
sirius will die
dumbledore will die
The elements will be important and each house represents an element
We also dissected the four humours and how they relate to the houses (Ron is billious (Bile) Fleur is Phlegm)
harry will end up with ginny
There will be a wedding in the series (chemical wedding (though Bill and Fleur were a suprise!)
the idea of the quintessence and how Harry must balance the four elements (Harry reads Quintessence; A quest in HBP)
We also spoke of the four Hallows in relation ot the grail quest (Quest for gold)

I am not trying to brag, but I am just trying to get at the fact that we have a pretty good track record by embracing all alchemical theories and trying to expand on them or debate them in this thread. (And in the forum as a whole as well!) Have we been wrong? heck yeah! But its been a learning experience that I know I am grateful for!

We have also touched on very specific elements using alchemy that could possibly come true in DH

There will be a baby at the end of the series (and it will be a girl..Her name will use Spohia as its root)
there will be a huge revelation at the wedding itself (Harry will have an epiphany of sorts)
There will be an eclipse during the final book
Harry will die and be reborn (not literally..a symbolic rebirth)
Hagrid who marks the red stage will die

madamros, I agree there will be more to Snape that his role as vitriol.

we spoke about Snape as vitriol earlier in the last thread and if I remember correctly, at the end of the completion of the process the only thing that is left is salt and a "weak solution of sulfuric acid". That leads me to believe that either Snape will be in a weakened state, (which was why I thought he would be maimed, blinded, etc.) or he will have a "less acidic personality".

Snape has played both sides of the war for far too long to come out smelling like a rose. I think that his acidic personna is part of his charm and if he loses that , it will be a shame. It certainly is part of the storyline, alchemically, as the acid helps break down the "ston" so it can be transfigured into a more perfect state. I am betting on Snape getting his just desserts.

besides, No one kills albus dumblefore and gets away with it1 LOL!

How's this for a suggestion - Snape as Red King marrying his White Queen? I don't see any of the students getting married anytime soon - they are far too young! Bill and Fleur, yes they are marrying, but they are relatively minor characters. We are going to be finding out a lot more about Snape in book 7

The Alchemy posts are so detailed and numerous that I can't remember if this has been pointed out; please forgive me if it has been discussed in full already:

Concerning the Felix Felicis potion in HBP, USA version, page 187:

-it is the color of molten gold (top of page)

-Slughorn says: "...Yes, it's a funny little potion...(snip)...Desperately tricky to make, and disastrous to get wrong." (halfway down the page)


The reference to its color and the consequences of going about it "wrong" seem to hint at the gold state and the necessary intentions for the preparation of the Philosopher's Stone. Possibly a hint for its appearance in the plot of the last book?

I do not see any "red king" in Snape. And who would be his "white queen"? Narcissa? She seems to be taken, unless we see Lucius come to his untimely end and she marry's Snape.

EruditeWitch said:
Why?
Why make the vow?
He was clever enough to get out of it.

LostCentaur said:
The Alchemy posts are so detailed and numerous that I can't remember if this has been pointed out; please forgive me if it has been discussed in full already:

Concerning the Felix Felicis potion in HBP, USA version, page 187:

-it is the color of molten gold (top of page)

-Slughorn says: "...Yes, it's a funny little potion...(snip)...Desperately tricky to make, and disastrous to get wrong." (halfway down the page)


The reference to its color and the consequences of going about it "wrong" seem to hint at the gold state and the necessary intentions for the preparation of the Philosopher's Stone. Possibly a hint for its appearance in the plot of the last book?

Here is why I think Severus is a 'red king'
i) Bill is a red king partly because of his red hair. Red hair is the blond version of black hair.
ii) So far we have only had one example of someone refusing to go in the house the Sorting Hat planned for them initially - Harry refused to go in Slytherin ('Anything but Slytherin!') - this was partly based on his knowledge of Draco. I can easily imagine Snape saying the same thing (Anything but Gryffindor!) after meeting James and Sirius!
iii) Eileen Prince. The Prince heraldic colours are, yes, red and gold! Was Snape's mother a Gryffindor?
iv) In terms of LoTR, Snape is the 'hidden King' - he is Aragorn, I think. Definitely a King.

Harry's luck is one of the main themes of HBP - mentioned by Snape at Spinner's End (and spin is apparently a term for good or bad luck in Australia and New Zealand). Harry 'luckily' remembered about bezoars and knew where to find one, thanks to Snape's potions book, when Ron was poisoned, and we have the whole felix felicis potion. Luck will feature heavily again in book 7 - maybe a huge dose of luck is needed to make a Philosopher's Stone - well, Harry is the lucky one!

Actually Bill is the red king not only because of his red hair but also because of his role as the curse breaker. Apollo was called the curse breaker and the sun god. I do not think it is an accident that JKR gave him that occupation at Gringotts. Also he is after all the only one getting married so far. We can't overlook the obviuos.

In order for DD to be the red king in alchemy there must be a white queen. JKR speaks of DD not having a partner, an equal and how lonely that is in the mugglenet/TLC interview. The only other candidates in my opinion is Ron and Hermione.

Unfortunaltey, there is too much speculation to surmise that Snape is the red king. Alot of "what ifs". (What if Snape refused to go to Gryffndor, what if his mom was a Gryffindor) Snape and the red/black hair connection...I am sorry, I just don't agree with you.

All anyone can do is speculate, but it would be consistent with most alchemy stories if there was a climactic Chemical Wedding for Harry and his female partner somewhere past the midpoint of the final book, with a number of actual weddings in a matrimoniathon at the very end--when all the Red Kings link up with their respective White Queens.

We can't discount the possibility that JKR has reversed the colors of the king and queen. Lily, with her red hair, is probably a red queen -- and James, the white stag, is her white king. Harry was the Stone that they produced. I think Harry and Ginny together could be another red queen/white king pairing, since Harry's patronus is also a white stag.

Regulus. P 14. «And as soon as you see its star, follow it to its cradle; there you will see a beautiful infant, by separating him from his impurities. Honour this Royal off-spring, open your treasure to offer him gold; and after his death, he will give you of his meat and of his blood, a supreme medicine for the three kingdoms of earth.»

We can't discount the possibility that JKR has reversed the colors of the king and queen. Lily, with her red hair, is probably a red queen -- and James, the white stag, is her white king. Harry was the Stone that they produced. I think Harry and Ginny together could be another red queen/white king pairing, since Harry's patronus is also a white stag

Two:
The star of regulus sinks to the bottom. I wonder if Regulus was drowned and that is how he met his untimely end. I am speculating, based on this property of the regulus of antimony that after stealing the locket and hiding it and replacing the fake on in its place, Regulus was killed by drowning. I wonder if he is now an inferi on the cave? Sinking to the bottom of the lake.

Becky920 said:

I agree, everything is a circle (Oroborus). Lily and James the original white queen and red king produed Harry, the stone. I think that Bill and Fleur's child will also be the stone on the next era. Remember, she will have the blood from Veela, werewolf and wizard in her. (yes, I say her..the Sophic child of the chemical wedding in some texts is a girl). She will be a symbol for hope and acceptance of all races in the wizarding world.

I wonder if since Bill is in the order, Fleur will also participate. She might have been the weakest of the champions in GoF, but I think, that those beauxbatons are no pushovers. I wonder if her love for Bill will make her stronger. She has already stood up to Molly and I bet that book seven will be her time to shine.

I wonder if regulus was at Godric's Hollow! Could he have followed Lv to Godrics Hallow and have been the one to take him from the rubble? (anyone know when he was killed?)

I also wanted to add this about the CW and its effect on Harry. According to the emerald tablet at the Chemical wedding:



All Obscurity will be clear to you," it is "the Glory of the Whole Universe."

This leads me to believe that a HUGE amount of hidden knowledge will be revealed at the wedding. Something big! This is the defining moment to Harry.

All Obscurity will be clear to you," it is "the Glory of the Whole Universe."

This leads me to believe that a HUGE amount of hidden knowledge will be revealed at the wedding. Something big! This is the defining moment to Harry. All the teachings of Albus Dumbledore will sink in at the wedding. Will he see the power of love between Fleur and Bill? Not only that, weddings tend to bring out the love between couples. Will He also see this in Molly and Arthur? Hermione and Ron? Will he realize how much love he has for Ginny?

My point in bringing up the power of love is that even in the throws of war, Love will reign supreme. even if its just for that fleeting moment in time. I wonder if harry will realize this. Once source says this about the words of the Emerald Tablet "The goal of alchemy is to make this golden moment permanent in a state of consciousness called the Philosopher’s Stone". maybe Harry will have to remember this power, how at the moment of Fleur and Bill saying "I do" the war can not penetrate that moment.

I have long been a believer of a blood bath at the wedding, but I wonder if love will protect them all from that fate.

I have been thinking about regulus a bit and wanted to share a few thoughts about what I have been thinking about. Especially about regulus according to alchemy.


ther eis also this quote about the symbolsim of the star of regulus that I thought was awesome:

Is it completely impossible that Harry and Ginny are the Red King and White Queen?

MA: Had you been trying to get them —

JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part.

ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can’t figure out what Emerson actually said here.]

JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.

One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.

MA: Does she have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stufff, being the seventh girl —

JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.

ES: No, that was a good answer.

MA: It's interesting about Dumbledore being lonely.

JKR: I see him as isolated, and a few people have said to me rightly I think, that he is detached.

What would be the alchemical significance (if any) of Ginny and Harry sharing that chocolate egg in OotP? It was 'decorated in small, iced Snitches,' and I'm coming to understand that some believe the Snitch is symbolic of the Stone.

I've also found that the Philosopher's Egg is the vessel in which the Stone is created.

The egg is symbolic of the hermetically sealed vessel of creation. Stoppered retorts, coffins, and sepulchres represent eggs in many alchemical drawings.

During the alchemical process, the subject, Hermetically sealed in the Egg, would go through a symbolic death and rebirth. When the Egg was cracked, a new mystical substance emerged which was an elixir that prolonged life and acted as a catalyst capable of improving any substance that it came in contact with. This substance, called the Philosopher's Stone, could change lead into gold and change an ordinary person into an enlightened master. One of the symbols for this perfection was the ideal flower -- the rose.

Amongst peoples of the Teutonic stock stories of the external soul are not wanting. In a tale told by the Saxons of Transylvania it is said that a young man shot at a witch again and again. The bullets went clean through her but did her no harm, and she only laughed and mocked at him. “Silly earthworm,” she cried, “shoot as much as you like. It does me no harm. For know that my life resides not in me but far, far away. In a mountain is a pond, on the pond swims a duck, in the duck is an egg, in the egg burns a light, that light is my life. If you could put out that light, my life would be at an end. But that can never, never be.” However, the young man got hold of the egg, smashed it, and put out the light, and with it the witch’s life went out also.”

I am not sure I'm convinced Dumbledore never had an equal. If Harry has found his match in Ginny as a teenager, DD could have easily had a match long, long ago. But it's certainly true that as far as we know him he was isolated. But that could have been 100 years ago that he lost his partner. It's hard to imagine that he was such as successful wizard as well as alchemist without having someone worthy of him. (That probably doesn't sound right but hopefully my meaning is understood.)

Is my argument valid? I believe JKR is using alchemy in some ways and not others. I have no idea how to better make my point. What do you guys think?

I agree, i think she's taking a little bit from everything when she makes her plots. And not just even alchemy, but other literary traditions. The question that we can only guess at is where and what goes where. I firmly believe that romance isn't as alchemical as some people think.

the site is www.emmawatson.net

it's the forums there under member forums and shipper forum. If anyone is interested.

EruditeWitch, The best advice I can give you is to study Alchemy on your own. No argument can be beaten when you truely believe what you are stating. I bet Shard would be honored to guild you through HP101.

THE SEVEN METALS

Lead
Gold
Silver
Tin
Iron
Mercury
Copper

7. Conjunction -- The Red Stage or iosis, the ultimate and final stage of alchemical transformation, is called coagulation, when the elements of the first six stages coalesce into the highest stage of perfection. It is here that the Great Marriage is performed--the union of sulfur and mercury, king and queen, quicksilver and gold, sun and moon. It releases the Ultima materia of the soul—the Astral Body, which is the Philosopher's Stone. With the Stone, the alchemists believed they could exist on all planes of reality.

Coagulation is represented by Red Pulvis Solaris, which was in effect a red bezoar or a mixture of pure sulfur and mercury oxide. Pulvis solaris means "Powder of the Sun", and the alchemists believed it would instantly perfect any compound they added it to.

represented the Greek God Venus and to the Greeks, it could protect against evil and attract love

Egyptian rites called for the use of Copper mirrors, which those preparing the bodies placed under the head of the body.

Gold - Gryffindor is the obvious, but does Hufflepuff count?

Still looking for tin, since I know the next-least about taht, other than it's a "cheap metal"

Oooooh good one! I think that will make everything very even. Iron is also the most earthy of the suggested metals, IMO

YIKES! You have a baby three weeks early and look what I have to catch up on??????????????????

I had a question about the seven metals. Maybe it would help us to identify the seven people for the seven metals if we have something more about their characteristics or functions. Does anyone have a definitive list like that for the metals?

Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville, Ginny, Luna and Draco seem like the most likely grouping of seven to me just going on the importance of the characters to Harry's development and growth. If so, I'd call Neville your "Hufflepuff" rep. But as to which stands for each metal, I'd really want to know more about what each metal does so I could match it up with each character's skills or talents.

Also, is there a significance to weasels and mythology.

I'm not an alchemist, but I think I know the answer to this one (and I never know the answer to anything in here!).
The purifying scent of a weasel is capable of killing a basilisk; however, in order to get close enough to kill the basilisk, the weasel must sacrifice it's own life. Doesn't look too good for at least one Weasley.

Going back to my earlier post on Hermes being the slayer of the Dragon of Ignorance. If Hermione is mercury, and Draco is tin, the Hermione can slay Draco's ignorance and bring him over to create that grand association of metals.

Maybe one of the Weasleys will be responsible for bringing down Nagini. Begin mortal enemies and all. My money is on Arthur. He is the aging king, and he's had encounters with Nagini and lived to tell.