"Bad Boys" in the HP Series, Why We Love to Hate Them |
 Aug 10 2009, 08:51 PM
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Ollivander's Apprentice Posts: 1,994 Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007 Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song     |
The "bad boys of literature" - we recognize them in a heartbeat when they appear on the pages. They are those dark, enigmatic characters with huge attitude and murky motivations who nonetheless propel the action of the story forward. Great literature has given us bad boys whose appeal still draws over time, and our discussions about them remain quite heated. Love them or hate them, these literary badboys fascinate some - and repel others. JKR has generously given us a number of these characters in the HP series. What makes them tick? What is their draw for so many readers? Do they ever, just possibly, outshine the hero? Can there be great writing without them?
This post has been edited by fidelia: Aug 10 2009, 10:58 PM -------------------- *thanks, twiddlethosedials, for the siggy* |
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Aug 10 2009, 10:31 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher  Posts: 145 Joined: 11:46pm June 12, 2009 |
I voted for Snape (surprise, surprise...check out my avatar!), even though I could vote for more than one. Frankly, they are all bad boys, in one way or another, but I think Snape is the ultimate bad boy of the series. What makes a literary bad boy? All of the above. I think it is attitude, actions, and back story...but also, it's what the reader interprets about the character.
Snape outshines the hero of the story, mostly because Harry's way forward is clear and almost predetermined. There's nothing that intriguing about a protagonist who you know will end up triumphing in the end. True, I wasn't sure that Harry would survive, but I was sure that LV would be dead by the end of the series (hence, "The End"). As for Snape, the way was never clear and it was not elucidated until the final book. We had hints along the way, but we knew neither his motives nor his reasoning. I will give credit for this where credit is due (some further reading if you're interested...yeah, I've posted it before, but it's that good). As for the inherent good, this is part of the bad boy image. There is something underneath it all that is meant to explain the "crust" outside, whatever it may be. Just to be clear, by my definition, the classic literary/cinematic bad boy is, outwardly, nebulous and/or has some serious personality flaws; inwardly, he has hidden something good. I mention this to differentiate between someone who is evil to the core: LV is not a "bad boy," he is just plain evil. However, one could argue that, as a teenager, TR was still a bad boy and that this is what bad boys can turn into if they lose or lose sight of what good is there inside. I do not believe predetermination and I do not think TR was destined to become LV. He was, like several of the males in the HP series, an unwanted child (other examples being SS, SB, and, most notably, HP---even HP notes this in DH). Hogwarts was their only real home and the one place in which they could find themselves and possibly change their life's trajectory. Unfortunately, the Hogwarts experience (what should have been a transformative force) was no match for the narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies of the young TR (and, even worse, helped turn TR into LV). This is ultimately one of the many things I love about the HP books. The unwanted boys that populate the books are not only contrasted with the wanted ones, they are shown as examples of the diversity of what can happen to children who are, for lack of a better term, discarded. In the case of Snape, sure, the bullied turned into a bully (almost stereotypical), but there was something good underneath all the muck. To me, the draw is this: we want to believe in the inherent goodness of others, but more importantly, of ourselves. We want the bad boys to have some good, or at least to have some explanation for being so bad. Because, if they don't then in a way, we don't either. I think there can be good writing without the bad boy who does good. Even when you're "mostly" good (I think of "mostly dead" from "The Princess Bride" as I write that), there are crises to be dealt with. Good literature hangs on some kind of conflict or crisis, regardless of the characters involved. The bad boy (or girl) persona just makes it more interesting. It adds to the conflict because there's an unknown variable in the mix. IMO, this pulls readers further into the plot because they won't just want to know what, when, how, and where, but they'll want to know why. When everyone has clear motives, the why becomes a plot point. When even one person doesn't have clear motives, the why has the potential to become a debate. This is why IMO Snape is the baddest of the bad boys. He's a polarizing force. Sure, you can discuss the motives of SB, DM, LM, etc. but, at least in my own discussions and my reading of lounge posts, these aren't debates. There are Snape-lovers and Snape-haters and, in many cases, they won't budge from their positions. Baddest of the bad, I tell you. |
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Aug 11 2009, 09:08 AM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter  Posts: 2,027 Joined: 3:59pm May 15, 2008 Location: Sunny Phoenix, Arizona("It's a Dry Heat!") |
Interesting topic, this!
I think perhaps the term "Byronic hero" may apply to some of the "bad boys" of literature. Lord Byron himself was quite the bad boy--great poet, but with the women--well, Lady Caroline Lamb wrote of him, " Mad, bad, and dangerous to know." Many authors have deliberately written parts for characters in the Byronic vein. For Americans. probably no "Bad Boy" of Lit is more famous than Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind and his parting shot at Scarlett O'Hara. As far as the Harry Potter books go, I wouldn't say that JK Rowling set out to create a Byronic hero, but I think she created at least two(and others may have their own candidate as well) and those are Sirius Black and Severus Snape. I'm not going to write too much about Snape since the previous poster, SeveraSphyna, pretty clearly set out the reasons why so many find this enigmatic character enticing. For me, then, Sirius Black is a "bad boy" who should have the initials "B.A," after his name, and I don't mean Bachelor of Arts. I'm going to run through a few reasons why I think this is so: *First, the boy defies his family and gets himself sorted into a house at Hogwarts that is the antithesis of all they believe in. One of the later books has Harry observing that Sirius had pictures of scantily clad, MUGGLE girls on his bedroom walls. I'm thinking, "How did he get access to those pictures, unless he went into muggle territory?" More importantly, did he actually date muggle girls? Might that be one of the reasons he got his name blasted off that family tapestry, and disowned by his family? *Next, he runs around with one of the most adept rule-breakers of Hogwarts, James Potter, and like James, manages to become an Animagi in order to help a Werewolf, a person most magic and muggle people would avoid like the plague. They create a magical map that tells where everybody is at Hogwarts--two very impressive magic feats. Let's face it-- most male students were safely in their beds at Hogwarts during night hours--not SB and his co-horts. Good boys do not get thrown into Detention on a regular basis(unless they run across a vindictive Professor like Snape or Umbridge, that is, and we have no evidence that that was the case with James Potter and Sirius Black). *He's good looking--Harry's trip through the Pensieve describes him so, and that one of the coeds was looking at him longingly. So--he's handsome, but out of reach for the girls at Hogwarts. Sounds pretty much like a Bad Boy to me! * Most impressively, he owns a FLYING MOTORCYCLE! I mean, everybody knows that all the reeely bad boys in modern times ride a motorcycle. James Dean, Marlon Brando, Hell's Angels-- need I go on? I can just picture him in a black leather jacket, hair blowing in the wind, a slight sneer on his face that would turn to a smile if he saw a pretty girl to the side-- --sorry I must end this now and go take a cold shower! ( I must remind myself not to think of Sirius in the summer, as it is already hot enough here in Phoenix, lol) This post has been edited by Fricka: Aug 30 2009, 09:04 AM -------------------- "And now, Harry, let us step out into the night and pursue that flighty temptress, adventure."
Phoenix avatar courtesy of ofenjen; thanks to atschpe for help |
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Aug 11 2009, 11:45 AM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man  Posts: 11,140 Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005 Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape |
I voted for Snape simply to keep things simple or we could be here a long time
 I do like Sirius and Lupin a lot but, to me they're not the *bad boys*. I'm not even sure that I know exactly what a real *bad boy* of literature is. The way I see it, Snape was more the misfit than bad boy. He was the loner, he was pushed around at home, he was bullied in school and no one liked him. Some people describe his behavior toward Lily as stalker-like. While I respect their opinion, I strongly disagree. It may not be a healthy relationship and it may be obsession but, in my opinion Snape no way is a stalker. His love for Lily may be totally irrational and unrealistic but, he is not a stalker. What I do agree with are those people that are puzzled by JKR saying that she wrote Snape as a teacher she hated.  At one school I was at, I had a cruel teacher that was just an overgrown bully. He taught nothing, he terrorized the class, he teased and picked on kids, there was nothing nice or commendable about him. Snape not only is one of the most interesting, believable and profound characters of the entire series but, he's also incredibly skilled, brave, courageous, loyal, devoted and heroic. I'm confused. I love JKR but, I cant help but wonder sometimes if her dislike of the teacher blinded her to who Snape really is. And, I also wonder why she didnt write LV as this teacher. To me, there is nothing at all likeable or redeemable about LV. If she wanted us to share her dislike of a person, why not write LV based upon the teacher? To me he is not the bad boy, he's an evil calculating power-crazed murderer. There's nothing cool or sexy about that. Snape on the other hand messes up big time, like a lot of real people do but, he lives the rest of his life regretting that with all of his heart and all of his actions. Everything he does is to try to make amends for his mistakes but, he can never do enough and, in the end he gives his life. His whole life he carries his first true love in his heart. He *is* smart and courageous. Why did JKR write such a hero if she didnt want for us to admire him?
--------------------   I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.  When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan Thanks Jeff! |
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Aug 12 2009, 01:36 PM
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 261 Joined: 7:51am May 14, 2005 Location: Cologne |
Actually, I see it quite a different way. The fact, that JKR chose that hated teacher and formed him to one of her most complex character rather seems, as if she tries to see good in everybody.
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Aug 13 2009, 10:26 AM
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Director of Farcical Aquatic Ceremonies Posts: 8,969 Joined: 2:55pm January 28, 2005 Location: Classified, until such time as the Ministry sees fit to release it. |
Hello, all.
 Since the topic of this thread reaches beyond HP to include the role of bad boys in literature, I'm going to magic it over to the Obscurus Books forum.  Pleione LL Moderator  |
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Aug 15 2009, 06:05 PM
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Ollivander's Apprentice Posts: 1,994 Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007 Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song |
QUOTE(SeveraSphyrna @ Aug 10 2009, 11:31 PM)  I As for Snape, the way was never clear and it was not elucidated until the final book. We had hints along the way, but we knew neither his motives nor his reasoning. I will give credit for this where credit is due (some further reading if you're interested...yeah, I've posted it before, but it's that good). As for the inherent good, this is part of the bad boy image. There is something underneath it all that is meant to explain the "crust" outside, whatever it may be. Yeah, that article is that good!  I think the author hit upon a very salient point: badboys have to have somewhere to go in terms of character development to make them believable -- and admirable. And when the author can pull that off, they've created a character with enormous appeal.  Snape, for example, did have a huge developmental story arc throughout the series, and it was his story and the continual revelations about him which so many of us found so riveting. The "good" heroes are often outshone when their trajectory is rather obvious.....whereas the badboys keep us guessing and intrigued. As the author of the above-mentioned article wrote, Harry was good as a child, and unfailingly good throughout the series. His moral trajectory, while totally admirable, left the reader with nothing to guess at. Perhaps that's where badboys have an unfair advantage -- they can go either way, and that inherent tension makes for great reading.QUOTE(Fricka @ Aug 11 2009, 10:08 AM) Interesting topic, this! I think perhaps the term "Byronic hero" may apply to some of the "bad boys" of literature. Lord Byron himself was quite the bad boy--great poet, but with the women--well, Lady Caroline Lamb wrote of him, "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know." Many authors have deliberately written parts for characters in the Byronic vein. I loved your ode to Sirius which follows this quote, Fricka! He is one of the badboys of the series who so many swoon over. I equally love Lady Caroline Lamb's succinct version of what a badboy is: "mad, bad, and dangerous to know". Yeah, there has to be that element of danger to the badboys...the type of danger that leads one on to want experience that danger with them. Badboys have got to be riveting. They play a great role in many books, in that they just pu-ull the reader in to their experiences. They let us vicariously experience a different reaction to events than the norm. (And hey, it's a safe bet to walk on the wild side with a literary character!) If the author can't pull that off, well, all we're left with is a snarky character with personality problems.  QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Aug 11 2009, 12:45 PM) I voted for Snape simply to keep things simple or we could be here a long time. I do like Sirius and Lupin a lot but, to me they're not the *bad boys*. I'm not even sure that I know exactly what a real *bad boy* of literature is. I'm guessing we're working out our own Leaky version of what a badboy is, Moosestar. I'm intrigued by the point that you raise: that for you, Sirius and Remus don't qualify as badboys. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that! I thought Sirius was about classic as a literary badboy myself! As for Remus, well, I'm in partial agreement. I didn't put Remus on the badboy list in the poll....just couldn't make myself go there.  Ater thinking about it, I realized that for me, Remus lacked a couple of crucial badboy characteristics: he didn't have "attitude", he was unfailingly kind and gentle, he didn't have that outward demeanor nor was he a troublemaker. Yes, he was on the periphery because of his werewolf status....but that was about all he had. Anyone disagree with this? Is Remus an overlooked badboy? And....what about Draco? He seems to have many of the classic characteristics too: he's got attitude, demeanor, he is definitely bad, he's accustomed to flouting rules, he goes against the norm (I mean, the kid becomes a Death Eater at 16), and he walks an independent walk. Does he qualify? The poll results for him are a bit slim....... This post has been edited by fidelia: Aug 15 2009, 07:23 PM -------------------- *thanks, twiddlethosedials, for the siggy* |
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Aug 16 2009, 11:25 AM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man Posts: 11,140 Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005 Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape |
QUOTE(fidelia @ Aug 15 2009, 09:05 PM) I'm intrigued by the point that you raise: that for you, Sirius and Remus don't qualify as badboys. {snip} And....what about Draco? [/color] It's all just my opinion of course  but, to me Draco is a bully. If he flouts the rules it's due to his arrogance in thinking the rules dont apply to him because he's somehow superior. He becomes a DE but, that's more than rule-breaking yet it's not entirely his decision. He (to me) is a typical bully, he's all bravado when he's traveling with his entourage but, on his own he's a coward. He quotes prejudices that he's heard when growing up because he thinks it makes him tough or cool but, being the out and out DE isnt necessarily something that he had in mind. I disagree that he is independant, until near the end when he questions himself and what he's doing. But, the fact that he suddenly wakes up and finds himself carrying out a plan that he questions demonstrates his lack of independance until now. He's been walking the bully walk and thinking other people's preconceptions and not stopping to think for himself or to behave in a manner suited to himself. I dont think Remus is a *bad boy*. I do think he's a social misfit but, this is the fault of society and not of his own doing. Sure he was somewhat *rebelious* at school, he was a prankster and a Marauder. But, even at a young age he most likely had a burden of *shame* and isolation on him for being different. He had found friends that saw him for who he was and not what he was, he maybe consciously or unconsciously realized that life was going to get a whole lot tougher after school so, if he was going to have any carefree years it was now and he had to live that to the full. Sirius may have had similar reasons for goofing off at school. So he didnt have the same problems as Remus but, he was totally alone. Unlike Draco, Sirius had the intelligence and the courage to think for himself and not simply follow the generations of prejudice and preconceptions. He chose to reject the *pure blood* supremacy thing and was disowned by his family. How difficult it must be for a kid to grow up as an orphan or, as with Neville to grow up with sick parents. But, to have your own mom disown you because of what you are or what you believe must be kind of heartbreaking. So, I think that a lot of Sirius's behavior came from that, trying to appear confident on the outside to hide a more tortured interior. Sure he was occasionally a bully but, in my opinion not to the extent of Draco. If Sirius was ever the bad boy, it was after his escape from Azkaban when he became almost adolescent at times in his behavior with mood swings, he would be grouchy and depressed for days at a time, he blatantly flouted the advice given to him about what to tell or not tell Harry, or about going out, he would argue and shout, and sometimes almost treat the other members of the Order as though they were the *unkind* and *unfair* parents that didnt understand him. -------------------- I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan Thanks Jeff! |
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Aug 16 2009, 10:24 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 21 Joined: 6:44pm July 31, 2009 |
Of COURSE the prospect of them being secretly good amplifies any bad guy. After all, if they're ALL bad, they'd just end up like Voldemort in his later years... While he's facinating as a younger boy, after a while... it's too predictable.
I can't count how many Fanon Dracos have turned out a lot better than what actually happened, and it was much more riveting. (I'm not downing on Jo (never!), her books don't revolve around Draco and his redemption. I think it would've been sort of strange if it had been canon.) |
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Aug 18 2009, 09:20 AM
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Claw-Clipping Kneazles at the Magical Menegerie Posts: 2,451 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse |
I don't see Snape as a Bad Boy. In literary terms, I see him as a dark hero. Inserting myself into late 70s Britain, I'd see him as a product of his family, who was then shaped by three defining moments:
- Meeting Lily Evans. - Losing Lily Evans the first time (the Mudblood incident) - Losing Lily Evans in this life (the murders) To me, the Bad Boy is Lucius Malfoy. He acts clean on the outside, tries to be dirty on the inside, and in fact is a politician through and through. His credibility is challenged even by Voldemort himself ... in GOF, HBP, and DH. If there was a Bad Boy of the series, it's him. There is a term for Draco, but it's not usable in a PG-13 world. -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter |
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