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Barty Crouch Jr. - evil & unloved - or just misunderstood?, In how many ways exactly can he be interpretated.
VampireOutlaw
post Jan 27 2010, 02:20 PM
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I tried to post this to the GoF Book Club's BCJ topic but it wouldn't let me, sayin it was a read-only. Reading that topic made me wish to throw in my interpretation of the character overall because it seems I'm quite alone with it. I know I'm not all alone as my view has received some positive feedback throughout the years. But I'm wondering if there's anyone here, who can agree to any degree? (Note; I don't expect anyone to fully agree, and constructive and polite arguments are welcome.)

I do believe my interpretation is very well logic to the canon even though very different from the majority of the interpretations of other fans - though my Barty Jr.'s story does get a little Alternate Universe from the end of Goblet of Fire book, because I do not write him having the Dementor's Kiss but create something more for, and about him, for a short time to come until I have him dead later that year. This because I really, really think he shouldn't have been thrown away so soon in the first place.

My version is not a Slyherin as most like to assume Barty Jr. was, but a Gryffendor. This choice for many reasons but for one because a Slytherin would have been such a cliché for a future Death Eater. I do not think wrong choices and evil deeds should be always connected to the House of Slytherin. The children are sorted into the Houses at so young age, they may very well yet change and make choices no one would've believed at the time and I don't even think that anyone really belongs to just one House but it's only the essence of the person that sorts them into a certain House - it has nothing to do with the depth of the character. Also, I believe Barty Jr. was his father's son but certain things poisoned his mind.

So, he really did take part in the torture of the Longbottoms. He was looking for acceptance from Voldemort and had probably had more of it - (pretended or genuine, who knows) - than he felt he'd had from his father and in the light of that and his bitterness, he might have very well ended up wanting to find Voldemort again, so bad that he'd be able to cast the Unforgivable curse and got carried away. But his choices from becoming a Death Eater in the first place to everything else he did before he got caught, were not so much hate driven but more out of desperation and youthful foolishness, combined to Voldemort being excpetionally good in manipulating people.

In my vision the trial happened like in the book, but mixed with the film's vision as in, that he didn't get caught with the Lestranges but in Karkaroff's hearing a bit later. But the emotional elements would be that of the book's. And he behaved so because he still held on to some hope when it came to his father. Regardless of anything they may have had or missed in the past - his pleading oozed the attitude 'but-I'm-your-son-you're-my-daddy-you-don't-really-want-to-do-this-to-me' - and even more so as he turned to his mommy, pleading her to make the father see that. Mothers usually have an unconditionally genuine love-bond to their children and sometimes end up reminding fathers that they do too. That is what I think Junior was counting on at that point. He was not innocent at all, but he held on to a hope which is the 'when love is blood, you're never on trial'. (Personally I don't think it has to be a blood tie, just love as strong as that. Generalizing, of course.)

And his father did love him, unconditionally. Thus being betrayed by his son in such a way naturally hurt extremely much, causing him to disown him - but of course to that affected also that he was very proud of his status as highly appreciated and respected judge, which Junior had now put to shame. Not only by being a DE but by taking part in such an unthinkable, cruel crime. I think what Junior had done and sending him to Azkaban crushed the father in two ways and affected his behavour in the trial. Because he really loved the boy and because it shamed his name and for a time the love turned to not-so-genuine hate. For a time he probably didn't even want to hear the kid's name mentioned.

Of course only the film says in Dumbledore's words "crushed Barty to do it but the evidence was over-whelming" and in Barty's words about the tragicness of losing one's family and life going on ect. - the book doesn't show any of that or that Barty would've felt remorse about sending his son to Azkaban. But I don't think it has to mean he didn't feel sorrow for it, or had "a heart of stone" like Sirius put it, or that he didn't love his child. Heck no - I like to dig deeper in this detail too instead of be done with the first impression.

But no, I don't think he ever regretted sending him to Azkaban. Of course he didn't - after all the boy had taken part in torturing (with an Unforgivable Curse) two persons into madness. If he regretted something about the matter, it must have been the disowning which was in a way even worse punishment than a life sentence in that inhumane prison - and that he had let his son slip away and end up doing something like that - and so, there had easily been love from both sides. (Hence, my fan video "Breathe Into Me").

The father also agreed to help in rescuing the boy from Azkaban and keeping him alive and taken care of, at home, in relatively good circumstances, can be interpretated at least in two different ways: It may speak for still loving him or in the least for still caring about him. After all, if you truly loved someone once, you never really turn cold about them. Never really - no matter what they've done. But Junior of course by the time believed his father did all that out of love for his wife only and thus that it was all his mother who saved him, but as said in another section, it was not necessarely the trurh.

My point is; the whole trial incident is much more powerful, if they had love for and faith in each others instead of the most popular interpretation where there was never love at all.

My Junior was usually the incredibly thoughtless, head-strong kid, looking for accapetance and attention, whose bitterness finally blinded him with hate and desperation - for a time long enough to lead him to his final mistake - the Longbottom's torture. And even though the family ties seemed to be broken when the mistake was revealed, they as we know, were not broken truly - but I think the trust was gone forever. That caused the 13 years of mostly suffering even more until there was no turning back, when the boy lost his mind, and therefore possibly, even if he'd wanted to, he couldn't so easily figure out right from wrong anymore. Wants to say he was rescued remotely by Voldemort, who hadn't yet abandoned or betrayed him, he helped Voldemort back to power, killed his own father... Imperioed a boy into crucioing a girl in order to bring Harry to Voldemort... It was only after being sentenced to Azkaban for life and being puclicly disowned by his father, when Junior truly turned against him and embraced Voldemort and became loyal to him. Not all the sudden but developed into it (fast) - so yes, even my Barty Jr. truly was a devoted and fanatic Death Eater at one point of his life even though not from the beginning, and not evil at heart, or sick at mind all along.

But I wanted to give him a chance. My Junior won't receive the Dementor's Kiss but he'll die by Voldemort's wand. I'm in belief that wizards honour life-debts very high. And Junior here owed his life to both of his parents and in this case in every way a person can owe his life to another. And, Dumbledore is a great man. He couldn't save Barty Junior anymore but he was still able to remind him of certain things Junior already knew but had been ignoring or forgotten. Hence, he wasn't all about Voldemort in the first place and he wasn't hate driven to join the Death Eaters and he'd remember all of that. And so, not forgiving his father, but maybe understanding him better.

He was helped to escape by Snape, returned to Voldemort, received his long awated reward but a lot had happened, the times had changed, and so had he, while he had always in the deepest been his father's son. Even if he knew nothing could erase the things he had done, nothing could really take away his guilt, he may have wanted to try to do something right - even once in his life. And for doing that he had now a great possibility…

But to be true to the original storyline, he never used the possibility - after all he was physically and emotionally exrtremely damaged and confused, at this point torn between his love for Voldemort and his long abused love for his parents, while as said he could not actually forgive his father. It was no doubt way too late for him in every way.

To tell you more about the early years of my Junior's life I have visioned he was a true gryffendor but also a bit too reckless and with many strong Syltherin features too, though his heart in the deepest that of a Gryffenfdor. He was close with his father and they had their good times and the boy had felt the feeling of being loved by him, but the father in the end put his job as a judge ahead his family, for too long took his job as a judge more important than that of as a father. When daddy's little boy was always there but the father did not take care of the relationship, anything good and beautiful is sure to slowly turn into bad, through loneliness, uncertainty, bitterness, all the way to occasional moments of hate. If dad was not enough there for him when he needed him the most after his mother got deathly ill but selfishly drowned his own sorrow into his precious job, and the kid happened to be in sensitive age at the time, things would certainly get worse fast.

The Harry Potter Wiki says that the father never loved his son at all and the son killed the father because he (the son) despised him (the father.) Now, first off - I don't think that's exactly a fact, that the father never loved him. That is never said in the book, except implied in Junior's words but as said, truth is a relative concept. But surely Junior despised his father at the point in when he killed him. Who wouldn't? The man had publicly disowned him, and sent him to that inhumane prison for life, and even when rescured him, held him captive by the darkest of magic. Surely this would make one also doubt if the parent actually ever loved him. I know that never-loved view is the easiest way to have all those things to happen. But to me, the easiest way isn't the interesting one, nor the best.

I think it much more interesting for me that the father-son relationship was close but never worked too well though he's in a way so much like his father but in many things so different... They can't understand each others in many things and too often forget to respect each others. I think they had it all and they wanted it to last, especially the boy longed for his father, but a complicated relationship takes more work than the father was willing and able to do on it. But I do not like to think their relationship would have been doomed from the beginning because of the father never really trying or caring. Rather as in that he wanted a child, but became a father at too young age, and being ambisious to a high degree he didn't think of or even fully understand the responsibility that having a child, truly brings. And then the mother's illness came to picture, making life even harder. So I prefer something potential-to-end-happily, something beautiful, turning bad and to worse and to the bitter end because of selfishness, strong hate and desperation sprung out of love, and of wrong choices. Instead of an all along cold and hateful thing continuing into it. I think it's in a way, more tragic my way.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. Wwhen I some time get some fan fiction stories done I will publish them and you'll get a better picture of what I'm trying to say here. What I'm trying to show in my interpretation of the Crouch father and son, is that an end-up like that (Junior joining the Death Eaters, torturing the Longbottoms and sentenced to Azkaban by his own father, and finally Junior murddering him), does not have to spring from extreme circumstances.

^
That was copy&pasted from my Barty Crouch Jr. fan site - (a link in my signature), where I babble about the character on other bases too + publish my fan art & fan videos (which of course I base on this interpretation of my own. Like the one mentioned earlier, "Breathe Into Me".)


This post has been edited by VampireOutlaw: Jan 27 2010, 05:39 PM


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VampireOutlaw
post Feb 26 2010, 07:12 PM
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My point in a nutshell; Yes, Barty Crouch Junior is a Voldemort admirer but I think there is supposed to be much, much more to him in the first place, than that.

That is why I'm trying to make my view seriously considered. I'm NOT saying I'm necessarely right in everything but I do feel this character has been over-looked by being labled a Voldemort fanatic/admirer and nothing more.
It's my passion for that character.

Some of you have assumed that I'd think BCJ joined the DEs in a whim and thus implied that I don't even want him to be a DE. Which both are the furthest thing from the truth; I fell in love with him because he was a DE - a judge's son a DE - how could irony get more delicopus? And I've always been very fond of fictional, troubled father-son relationships, so I'm not trying to change that either into any Disney crap and so Junior's decision to become a DE would've naturally subconsciously formed throughout his life. And I want to make it clear once and for all.

So - forgive me but I feel like my points are scattered all over this long topic and anyway this great discussion - which I sincerely thank all of you for making possible - has had me wonder and ponder so much it may be hard to catch the fuller picture of my mind.

So here I go more dynamically indepth with the most basic reasons for my interpretation, at least hopefully. I did not write this for this topic though - I'm copying this from my article on another site.

I'd highly appreciate if you read the entire post and not just the bolded parts.

So - my conclusions were and are:
1.) Junior did not have that bad relationship with his fathher before the trial's events. By all means, they might have even been close.
2.) He never really wanted to kill his father, in the deepest.
3.) During the first war - he was a devoted-to-a-degree but not a remarkably fanatic Death Eater.

Why?

Yes, Junior tells Harry, it was a "great pleasure" to kill his own father. But he was descrubed to look "completely insane" as in not being himself, when he said it. And then, when he – under the influence of veritaserum - tells it to Dumbledore (that he'd killed his own father), the book does not describe any tone or expression, so we don't know how he actually felt. You might think it'd show in that situation if he'd really felt a genuine, great pleasure of it, because such an emotion clearly showed, when he recalled the moment, when Voldemort had cast the Imperius Curse on the father – so the veritaserum did not stop him from expressing his true feelings about what he was speaking – especially when it came to his father.

But that's not even nearly all. As I read the book, I personally also analyzed such details as follows:
A.) Junior, seeming to be in utter distress, panicked, begged and pleaded his father to look at him as his own son, who he was and so not judge him so harshly. If Junior had already then been utterly bitter or disappointed in his father, I don't think he'd chosen to do that. Of course, many interpret Junior's behavior as a cunning and cold manipulation attempt. I only saw it as manipulation combined to a genuine distress and faith in his father. Because:

B.) Regardless of having faith in Voldemort still being alive - (he did, because he obsessed about finding Voldemort after getting out of Azkaban) – Junior was dying within a year in Azkaban, after his father had denied his very relationship with him and sent him to hell to die. THAT mostly caused Junior to think of his father as a very disappointing one and it to be a indignity to be named after him - especially, if he had been close with his father like they were in my interpretation. I mean, of course Junior had experienced disappointments throughout his childhood and grown bitter in some terms, but not so huge that he'd lost faith and love - and so only that trial threw him into the "very disappointing indeed" and "indignity" state of mind. But obviously even after that, his bitterness wasn't right away too strong and driving. As Junior did not want to wait for Voldemort and he didn't harbour revenge to his father, but he wanted to die. Thus his emotion in the trial very likely was genuine and not an act.

C.) His father saved his life and thus Junior was in life debt. It's not essential why Junior believed his father had saved his life. (As in for the mother, who Junior said he believed the father loved as he had never loved him; in other words that the father loved the mother MORE or in a different level, than the man ever had loved him. Not that he thought the father had never love him at all. Which leads to that, even in that insane and bitter state of mind, Junior still remembered that his father had loved him. Something like that can't possibly not affect feelings, especially when combined to a life debt. Voldemort on his half – knew nothing of love or at least didn't understand it.

D.) Junior also told that when Voldemort sent him news about the father's escape, Voldemort "told me to stop my father at all costs" - and on the previous page Junior had said, that his greatest ambition was, for one, to prove himself to Voldemort. And what would be more affective than killing his own father like uncle Voldy had killed his own?

Being very disappointed in his father – (after the trial this would've increased majorly especially if they were close with each other) + being mentally ill & "completely insane" looking + over-whelming desire to prove himself to Voldemort = a "great pleasure" of killing his own father. Not necessarely any true, genuine will or being pushed into it with a distant/horrible father-relationship from the beginning, unlike Voldemort's case was. And for all that I might question was the pleasure that deeply genuine either after all. Also as it didn't show again in any way in the second time he spoke of it in a non-"completely-insane" state of mind.

You may remember that Voldemort also asked Junior in GoF "Are you ready to risk everything for me?" (Junior told he'd asked that.) Why would Voldemort have asked that, if Junior had always been ready and willing, and thus especially bitter to his father and worshipping / fanatic to his master?

As analyzed, I think it's likely that Junior would've never killed his father at least before the trial and Azkaban and the 13 years after, since he lost his will to live after his father's words and the sentence. And in the end I believe he did it most essentially because of his sick mind and driven by his desire to prove himself to Voldemort, whereas his bitterness carried it well.

Most people think Junior really was distant with his father and utterly devoted to Voldemort as a replacement father of sorts or that it was the driving element. It's possible - I agree. But I never did and never will see it that way. I'd reckon this post clarified a lot of why in my view Junior was not looking for downright a father-figure replacement or love in Voldemort but only the acceptance/approval he had been essentially missing from his father and also wanted to get back at him in power matters and stuff related to his father's ambition. But he didn't need Voldemort to replace his father in any truly emotional way, like love and closeness - that he had from his father and it's not as if he'd found that from Voldemort anyway.

"I will be honored beyond all other Death Eaters. I will be his dearest, his closest supporter... closer than a son..."

That too works for my interpretation that Junior had been close with his daddy. If a close father does what Senior did, the son would certainly come to desire to become even closer with someone new he'd become to worship – so that the disappointment wouldn't happen again.

The only thing that implies Senior working so much that he didn't get to know his son, is Sirius saying so and that is not a reliable source, seeing to Sirius's opinion on Senior and how he was not a family friend anyway, as far as we know. Of course, Junior's relationship with his father had to have become essentially and critically troubled at some point or else Junior wouldn't have joined Voldemort's cause. But it doesn't mean they couldn't have remained close in their hearts or that he'd been looking for a father replacement. I think they had hope all the way to the trial, in which his Dad, unintenitionally, destroyed it all. After the year in Azkaban, Junior simply didn't hear his heart anymore because it had been broken and grown back cold and twisted and later on his mind got ill. And he never forgave his father, while the power of forgiveness is the only emotion that conquers all obstacles to do the right thing. But it's not connected to love so strongly. Love, if it was true, is always there. Even if your mind got sick and you lost it - the imprint is always there.

And there is a logic reason how a close father, who knows and loves his son, might end up doing what Junior's father did in the trial. You see, I can't bring myself to dismiss the trial's events and emotional elements that would have to be extremeley shocking and affecting to any family, to any father. Junior having become a DE wasn't necessarely a complete surprise to the father - just extremely unpleasent and a nightmare to actuelly have happened and then if combined to (enough) undeniable evidence of the unspekable torture crime particopating, and all this publicly revealed - I can easily imagine the look in Senior's eyes growing distant as if he was looking a stranger instead of his close son (thanks to the shock and growing fury.) And this look finally triggering the genuine fear and not-cunning but desperate manipulation attempt, in Junior, 'causing him to desperately deny any part of it regardless of if it was a lie (while it may have been even the truth) - so that his dad would somehow still remember what he really knew (including that he, Junior, would never take part in such a crime (out of his own free will.) Which ought to also mean that the trial events and emotions in itself do not tell that much about his father.

I'm not insisting that they necessarely were close. It's just a possibility. So basically all I'm trying to say with this article, is that I don't think the person Barty Crouch Jr. originally was, was too much like Voldemort. But only the utterly disappointed, hurt and sick person he became after his trial, the disowning, Azkaban and 13 years under the Imperius Curse. Which could've been far, far from the person he originally was. Junior surely was devoted to Voldemort to a degree all along, but remarkably less so during the first war than in 1994.


This post has been edited by VampireOutlaw: Feb 27 2010, 08:01 AM


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Posts in this topic
- VampireOutlaw   Barty Crouch Jr. - evil & unloved - or just misunderstood?   Jan 27 2010, 02:20 PM
- - cooncatbob   I don't have much if any sympathy for Jr. His ...   Jan 27 2010, 07:24 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   Wow! Now that is the most extreme evil-view I ...   Jan 28 2010, 06:01 AM
- - nellythemarrow   QUOTE(VampireOutlaw @ Jan 27 2010, 07:20 ...   Jan 28 2010, 09:16 AM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(nellythemarrow @ Jan 28 2010, 10:16...   Jan 28 2010, 10:17 AM
|- - nellythemarrow   First of all I'm sorry if my post came across ...   Jan 28 2010, 11:36 AM
- - VampireOutlaw   Yep! (: This is exactly why I think Junior is ...   Jan 28 2010, 02:39 PM
- - camelfox   I always felt that Barty Crouch Jr was one of the ...   Jan 28 2010, 06:26 PM
- - cooncatbob   Jr. was more like Lord Voldemort then any other ch...   Jan 30 2010, 02:53 PM
- - cminmd   In some ways I think BCJ is even worse than Tom Ri...   Jan 30 2010, 03:40 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   I can't recall for sure; does the book even co...   Jan 30 2010, 10:20 PM
- - Sirius_Craic   QUOTE(VampireOutlaw @ Jan 27 2010, 07:20 ...   Jan 31 2010, 09:22 AM
- - VampireOutlaw   I want to say a little about the mother at this po...   Feb 1 2010, 11:07 AM
- - Sirius_Craic   QUOTE(VampireOutlaw @ Feb 1 2010, 04:07 P...   Feb 1 2010, 04:39 PM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(Sirius_Craic @ Feb 1 2010, 05:39 PM...   Feb 2 2010, 09:20 AM
- - Sirius_Craic   QUOTE(VampireOutlaw @ Feb 2 2010, 02:20 P...   Feb 3 2010, 03:11 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   Ok, maybe I over-reacted a bit/read it wrong. (: A...   Feb 3 2010, 07:18 PM
- - Sirius_Craic   QUOTE(VampireOutlaw @ Feb 4 2010, 12:18 A...   Feb 5 2010, 03:15 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   Yes, I always try to look at things from all sides...   Feb 5 2010, 04:48 PM
- - cminmd   BCJ had a mother who loved him enough who would sw...   Feb 6 2010, 05:03 PM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(cminmd @ Feb 6 2010, 06:03 PM) I th...   Feb 6 2010, 06:12 PM
|- - Laura W   QUOTE(VampireOutlaw @ Feb 6 2010, 04:12 P...   Feb 6 2010, 09:31 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   Well, my thought behind the Senior overdoing the h...   Feb 7 2010, 11:13 AM
- - cminmd   "I don't think anything or anyone can be ...   Feb 7 2010, 11:32 AM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(cminmd @ Feb 7 2010, 12:32 PM) Beca...   Feb 8 2010, 03:26 AM
- - cminmd   Not to mention that if your kid goes to Hogwarts t...   Feb 8 2010, 09:22 AM
- - VampireOutlaw   Except for the summers and other holidays but yes ...   Feb 8 2010, 02:18 PM
- - Sirius_Craic   QUOTE(cminmd @ Feb 6 2010, 10:03 PM) I co...   Feb 8 2010, 03:34 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   Does the book confirm in some way, for how long Ju...   Feb 8 2010, 03:48 PM
- - Laura W   And does the length of time Barty Crouch Jr. was a...   Feb 8 2010, 07:20 PM
- - cminmd   I think judging from the text, BCJ couldn't ha...   Feb 8 2010, 07:27 PM
- - cooncatbob   The Harry Potter Books are all about people and th...   Feb 8 2010, 08:12 PM
- - VampireOutlaw   Laura W, I was not trying to make the length of h...   Feb 9 2010, 10:46 AM
- - VampireOutlaw   As for the BCS seeming distant to BCJ matter - I a...   Feb 13 2010, 11:07 AM
- - cooncatbob   I think BCJ was always a fanatic Deatheater. The w...   Feb 13 2010, 01:10 PM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(cooncatbob @ Feb 13 2010, 02:10 PM)...   Feb 13 2010, 05:55 PM
- - cooncatbob   He wasn't as tough as Bellatrix that's why...   Feb 13 2010, 06:05 PM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(cooncatbob @ Feb 13 2010, 07:05 PM)...   Feb 13 2010, 07:59 PM
- - rowena r   QUOTEI can put it another way too; if BCJ's dr...   Feb 14 2010, 08:58 AM
- - VampireOutlaw   Oh, oh! Yes! I think I need to take a step...   Feb 14 2010, 11:37 AM
- - rowena r   QUOTENo! Wait! Could Junior really have b...   Feb 15 2010, 08:35 AM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(rowena r @ Feb 15 2010, 09:35 AM) Q...   Feb 15 2010, 09:41 AM
- - VampireOutlaw   ADDING to the post above: Voldemort didn't gi...   Feb 19 2010, 02:06 PM
- - rowena r   I totally agree that it is a matter of interpretat...   Feb 20 2010, 08:30 AM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(rowena r @ Feb 20 2010, 09:30 AM) A...   Feb 20 2010, 02:51 PM
- - cooncatbob   You know Sirius was imprisoned for a crime that he...   Feb 20 2010, 07:00 PM
|- - VampireOutlaw   QUOTE(cooncatbob @ Feb 20 2010, 08:00 PM)...   Feb 20 2010, 11:22 PM


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