Chapter 30: The Pensieve, Dumbledore's Memory |
 May 3 2009, 12:10 AM
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Knockturn Alley Fingernail Vendor  Posts: 781 Joined: 2:36pm May 20, 2006 Location: a cozy little corner reading and knitting    |
Chapter 30: The Pensieve Dumbledore's Memory  Chapter art by Mary GrandPre When Harry arrives at Dumbledore's office, he interrupts a meeting the Headmaster is having with Fudge and Moody. Harry waits in Dumbledore's office while Fudge, Moody,  and Dumbledore search the school grounds.  Harry gets too close to the Pensieve, and finds himself falling into a large underground room filled with people. With Dumbledore sitting next to him with no recognition or response, Harry realizes this must be one of Dumbledore's memories. He sees the memories of three court cases involving suspected Death Eaters.With the introduction of the Pensieve, this chapter gives us insight to the past. Harry views different court proceedings of suspected Death Eaters. While the court cases enlighten Harry, they also bring out more questions for Harry to ponder. With so much information here, let's break this out into different discussions. Let's start with the first case Harry sees. The first visit into the Pensieve finds Harry in the dungeon Courtroom sitting with a younger Dumbledore and Moody. Karkaroff is giving testimony, hoping to free himself from Azkaban. He offers several names; however, the Court finds only one name that is new to their knowledge of Death Eaters. The Court sends Karkaroff back to Azkaban while they decide his fate. Here are a few points to ponder. As always, please feel free to add any discussion ideas I might have missed. – Everyone is quiet and there seems to be tension in the room. Your thoughts? Presence of Dementors? Karkaroff? Lord Voldemort? – What do you think about Moody's comments? Does this scene show his feelings for all Death Eaters or just his hatred for Karkaroff's having turned informant? – Do you think Karkaroff should have been set free? What did you think of the "deal" he made with the Court? – Did Moody have a right to be upset after spending six months working to capture Karkaroff? - Why is it that Dumbledore does not look much different, yet there is a distinct difference in Moody's appearance? – What did you think of the MOM's efficiency having captured/killed so many of the Death Eaters on Karkaroff's list of names? Please note, answers to House Point Questions must be included within posts that contain additional content to qualify. In other words, one-liner posts are not acceptable, even in the context of the game. Thank you for playing by the rules!  Which Death Eater did Karkaroff reveal was a specialist in the Imperius Curse? (10 points) -------------------- Fantastic siggie by Twiddlethosedials |
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May 3 2009, 09:24 AM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter  Posts: 2,011 Joined: 3:59pm May 15, 2008 Location: Sunny Phoenix, Arizona("It's a Dry Heat!")  |
Ah, yes, the Pensieve. About the time we are getting familiar with all of the elements of the wizarding world, Jo packs a new punch by putting in something as awesome as the Pensieve!
Anyway, on to the interesting questions that ginginkat has posed on this most important chapter; I'm going to start with the first one for now: Everyone is quiet and there seems to be tension in the room. Your thoughts? Presence of Dementors? Karkaroff? Lord Voldemort? Well, as someone who has been summoned to Jury Trial several times(and scheduled to appear again this summer), I have to say that there generally is some tension in a courtroom, even when the accused is not present. Nervous energy is unavoidable, when one does not know exactly what is going to be happening shortly. That's just the way the court system works. Also, what Harry is "viewing" in the first scene is not a trial per se, but the bringing back of an already convicted wizard to see if he has any information that can be helpful to the Ministry and therefore might earn the prisoner some commutation of his sentence in Azkaban. That's a different kind of tension than in the courtrooms I have been in; in this case, those present are concerned with learning if there are other Death Eaters who may yet have escaped justice. Also, the hearing is taking place in a dungeon--not very reasuring place for a prisoner to be brought, and I can't imagine the spectators would feel especially comfortable there, either. Of course, I think a great deal of the tension is also because of the anticipated presence of the Dementors. We've seen how they affect Harry; I don't imagine the on-lookers at this hearing have any illusions about the dangers the Dementors present, and the way that they make any normal witch or wizard feel; just their being in relative "safe" proximity to the Dementors would be enough in itself to cause tension, I think. Even from the distance of Dumbledore's memory, Harry feels his insides go cold, and he observes that the man the Dementors bring in is "almost fainting". So we get two tactile clues that this is a very cold place to be. Now, as for Karkaroff: Harry notices a couple of things about him right off--he is a lot younger and much more ragged looking than the Karkaroff who has appeared at the Tri-Wizard Tournament, and Harry notices that K. is "shaking". A far cry from the over-confident, sleek, arrogant Karkaroff who arrived at Hogwarts as the head of Durmstrang, indeed! After the announcement of Crouch that Karkaroff had been brought back from Azkaban because he said he had new information for the Ministry, and Kakaroff's shaking comments that he is eager to help round up the last of the Death Eaters, there is a mixed reaction from the observers. Then we get the conversation between Moody and Dumbledore concerning Karkaroff. Moody calls him "Filth" and states that it took him six months to track him down, so we get the impression that Karkaroff is a very slippery customer. Moody's comment that Crouch has "done a deal" with Karkaroff, depending on K's giving up new names, and his further assertion that Karkaroff should be sent straight back to Azkaban after he gives his testimony, gives us several clues to the people Harry is observing here. First, Moody is obviously a by the book Auror, or Wizard Detective, and Crouch is the Prosecutor, ready to make a deal if he thinks he can get information leading him to more lingering Death Eaters ( Really, it's much like a wizardy view of Law and Order!) Then Karkaroff is the criminal who is going to be given some form of leniancy for his testimony that (hopefully) leads to the arrest of other law-breakers, and finally, Dumbledore is the observer of the entire process, and standing in opposition to the Ministry being aligned with the Dementors. It's really a microcosmic view of the Justice System of the Wizarding World that Harry is viewing. As for Voldemort, we learn that he had spies in the Ministry itself, one of whom, Rookwood, is named by Karkaroff. This stunning news is followed by Karkaroff's assertion that Severus Snape is a Death Eater, and Dumbledore's defense of Snape, asserting that Snape was reformed and serving as a spy on Voldemort. If it weren't so serious, it would be almost funny--Voldemort puts a spy into the Ministry; Dumbledore puts spy on Voldemort. It's like a Chess game, with each opponent trying to get at the other's weak points while advancing his forces against the opponent. Any other thoughts on that? This post has been edited by Fricka: May 3 2009, 09:27 AM -------------------- "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phoenix avatar courtesy of ofenjen; thanks to atschpe for help |
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May 3 2009, 12:20 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner  Posts: 213 Joined: 8:33pm January 11, 2009 Location: Wilmington, NC |
QUOTE(ginginkat @ May 3 2009, 01:10 AM)  Here are a few points to ponder. As always, please feel free to add any discussion ideas I might have missed. – Everyone is quiet and there seems to be tension in the room. Your thoughts? Presence of Dementors? Karkaroff? Lord Voldemort? – What do you think about Moody's comments? Does this scene show his feelings for all Death Eaters or just his hatred for Karkaroff's having turned informant? – Do you think Karkaroff should have been set free? What did you think of the "deal" he made with the Court? – Did Moody have a right to be upset after spending six months working to capture Karkaroff? - Why is it that Dumbledore does not look much different, yet there is a distinct difference in Moody's appearance? – What did you think of the MOM's efficiency having captured/killed so many of the Death Eaters on Karkaroff's list of names? i dont like the deal made between karkaroff and the MoM at all. i find it despicable that karkaroff would be willing to turn his compatriots in, even if they were people who had done wrong things, but i find it even worse that the MoM is willing to make deals of corruption. and i have a feeling that the MoM was full of people who would want to undermine the deal and add more corruption to it later. ive always imagined that the differences in appearances between moody and dumbeldore was because moody was hurt and scarred so badly in later years, whereas dumbeldore just grew older, not battle worn. i should preface this by saying that i do not like the MoM at all, but i do think it at least shows they had the ability to capture death eaters based on what we saw with karkaroffs names. but, i dont like the way they captured them, killed them, or what they did afterwards (as far as azkaban) -------------------- Read books - formulate independent thought.
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May 3 2009, 03:49 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 104 Joined: 10:18am July 9, 2007 Location: Dobby's grave |
Which Death Eater did Karkaroff reveal was a specialist in the Imperius Curse? (10 points) Mulciber  Hi. I'm the new kid in town, with some thoughts about the Pensieve. The ability of wizards to capture their memories and watch them (like video) in a pensieve is one of the two aspects of the whole HP series which has continued to trouble me. Why do wizards not use such captured memories to resolve issues of disputed facts? In the context of Chapter 30, issues arise regarding the roles of Karkaroff, Bagman, Snape, Crouch Jr., and others in Voldemort's first uprising. Could such issues not be resolved by reviewing people's memories? Certainly Sirius Black would have allowed use of his memories of the alleged murder of Peter Pettigrew to be used in his defense. Harry would have allowed his memories of the events in the Riddle graveyard to be reviewed in the OotP by Fudge, the Daily Prophet, or anyone else. Some ideas and questions I have about this: How many pensieves are there, and how broad is knowledge of this ability in wizard society? The only pensieve I can remember seeing in the HP series is Dumbledore's. Certainly Dumbledore, Slughorn, and Snape knew of capturing memories. Did others? Was knowledge of this ability part of Voldemort's bag of tricks? We know he knew how to break people down and get into their memories. Did he have a pensieve? We learn later that even as skilled a wizard as Slughorn could not effectively forge or alter a memory. Could it be done through techniques like Confounding or Imperius curses? Would there be wizard civil liberties protections against, say, taking Bellatrix Lestrange and capturing her memories against her will to see what you could learn about her activities, and other Death Eaters? Welcome to the Attic and congrats, you earned 10 points for
This post has been edited by ginginkat: May 3 2009, 09:29 PM -------------------- That which Voldemort does not value, he takes no trouble to comprehend. Of house-elves and children's tales, of love, loyalty, and innocence, Voldemort knows and understands nothing. Nothing. That they all have a power beyond his own, a power beyond the reach of any magic, is a truth he has never grasped.
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May 3 2009, 03:58 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 29 Joined: 11:34am March 1, 2009 Location: UK |
QUOTE(ginginkat @ May 3 2009, 06:10 AM) – What did you think of the MOM's efficiency having captured/killed so many of the Death Eaters on Karkaroff's list of names? I actually thought it was rather frightening. I mean, it's a nice thought that the Ministry was able to identify and pick off these death eaters, but if they were able to infiltrate a group as exclusive and as ruthlessly-governed as that, how easy was it for death eaters to get into positions of power at the Ministry? (Which I know we find out anyway, but this part of the book really hammers it home for me. Especially since some of the names turn out to be a little too close to home ... I'm looking at you, Barty Crouch Jr! And Rookwood, of course.) In addition to that, I would agree with nicole_millard that – even though I guess at times there may not be another way – the idea of the "good" side killing shows that the boundaries between good and evil were getting increasingly blurry. That's scary too, especially since we're constantly reminded that the decision between the two stands on a knife edge for a lot of the main characters. All in all, a chilling chapter! This post has been edited by Saffron Sunset: May 3 2009, 04:03 PM -------------------- "I mark the hours, every one, Nor have I yet outrun the sun. My use and value unto you Are gauged by what you have to do." |
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May 4 2009, 09:11 AM
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Ollivander's Apprentice Posts: 1,981 Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007 Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song  |
QUOTE(LulaL @ May 3 2009, 04:49 PM) The ability of wizards to capture their memories and watch them (like video) in a pensieve is one of the two aspects of the whole HP series which has continued to trouble me. Why do wizards not use such captured memories to resolve issues of disputed facts? In the context of Chapter 30, issues arise regarding the roles of Karkaroff, Bagman, Snape, Crouch Jr., and others in Voldemort's first uprising. Could such issues not be resolved by reviewing people's memories? How many pensieves are there, and how broad is knowledge of this ability in wizard society? The only pensieve I can remember seeing in the HP series is Dumbledore's. Certainly Dumbledore, Slughorn, and Snape knew of capturing memories. Did others? Would there be wizard civil liberties protections against, say, taking Bellatrix Lestrange and capturing her memories against her will to see what you could learn about her activities, and other Death Eaters? QUOTE(Saffron Sunset @ May 3 2009, 04:58 PM) I mean, it's a nice thought that the Ministry was able to identify and pick off these death eaters, but if they were able to infiltrate a group as exclusive and as ruthlessly-governed as that, how easy was it for death eaters to get into positions of power at the Ministry? ..... In addition to that, I would agree with nicole_millard that – even though I guess at times there may not be another way – the idea of the "good" side killing shows that the boundaries between good and evil were getting increasingly blurry. That's scary too, especially since we're constantly reminded that the decision between the two stands on a knife edge for a lot of the main characters. LulaL, what fantastic questions you pose! I'm going to leave sonme open for others to jump in, and I 'll start with the availability of the pensieve, and the civil liberties in the wizarding world... My best guess is that pensieves are not common, or else we'd be seeing them turn up frequently in the series. They're just too darned useful to be allowed to sit fallow, what with the second rise of Voldemort and the fall of the MoM in Deathly Hallows. By way of example, let's consider timeturners. Timeturners are invaluable tools - and we see them carefully guarded by the Ministry. Only the carnage that occurs in Order of the Phoenix and which destroys them all keeps timeturners from falling into Voldemort's hands in Deathly Hallows. (Which is a good thing - imagine Voldemort with the possibility of turning back time! He'd undo everything - James, Lily, Harry, Neville, and we'd have no series at all!) It stands to reason that pensieves are a more rare device, otherwise, we'd see them cropping up in everyone's hands. I find it interesting that only those connected with Dumbledore seem to know about them. Albus, Severus, and Horace are the only people, until Harry, who demonstrate knowledge of pensieves and their uses. Severus was Albus' confidante in Albus' leadership of the resistance against Voldemort, and Horace was painfully aware that Albus was asking him to hand over his memories for inspection - which may account for the insider knowledge of pensieves by these two men. Aside from these few mentioned above, no one else seems to know about pensieves in the wizarding world. Which is a good thing. I do believe that Fudge, and later Scrimegeour, would have been most unscrupulous in their use of the pensieve. The wizarding world, to me, is most appalling in its lack of defense of human (and magical creature) rights. We have enslaved creatures (house elves), creatures who are deemed "second class" (ie, goblins, centaurs, giants, etc etc), and those who are later labeled "undesirable". Hmmm. While the Muggle world has its own gradations, prejudices, and horrors, the wizarding world has its own unique set of rigid classes and rules. Few in the wizarding world challenge the social status quo, or practice any kind of social justice. Access to a pensieve would be horrific - its use would translate into an inability for wizards and witches to have private memories and thoughts.  Just imagine, for a moment, the fact that every character's thoughts, memories and experience could be put on trial! Memory, as we know, is fallacious, and a public sorting through of imperfect, partial, skewed and tampered recollections would be a nightmare. All in all, although Sirius would have benefited from the defense of memory, I think it's a relief that only Albus appears to have had a pensieve. He had the ethical and moral discipline to use it only for good - which, sadly, isn't something we can really say for anyone else in a leadership position in the series or in the MoM.This post has been edited by fidelia: May 4 2009, 06:31 PM -------------------- *thanks, twiddlethosedials, for the siggy* |
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May 4 2009, 01:59 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 104 Joined: 10:18am July 9, 2007 Location: Dobby's grave |
QUOTE(fidelia @ May 4 2009, 10:11 AM) By way of example, let's consider timeturners. Timeturners are invaluable tools - and we see them carefully guarded by the Ministry. Only the carnage that occurs in Order of the Phoenix and which destroys them all keeps timeturners from falling into Voldemort's hands in Deathly Hallows. (Which is a good thing - imagine Voldemort with the possibility of turning back time! He'd undo everything - James, Lily, Harry, Neville, and we'd have no series at all!) It stands to reason that pensieves were a more rare device, otherwise, we'd see them cropping up in everyone's hands. That's really interesting! Now I have to think more about how timeturners work. As my favorite (so far, right now) HP movie PoA showed, they are pretty mind-blowing. QUOTE(fidelia @ May 4 2009, 10:11 AM) I do believe that Fudge, and later Scrimegeour, would have been most unscrupulous in their use of the pensieve. The wizarding world, to me, is most appalling in its defense of human (and magical creature) rights. We have enslaved creatures (house elves), creatures who are deemed "second class" (ie, goblins, centaurs, giants, etc etc), and those who are later labeled "undesirable". Hmmm. While the Muggle world has its own gradations, prejudices, and horrors, the wizarding world has its own unique set of rigid classes and rules. Few in the wizarding world challenge the social status quo, or practice any kind of social justice. That is another fascinating topic, maybe for a forum -- the Civil Rights Record of the Wizarding World (although we are really talking primarily about the British wizarding world). One good thing they did was outlaw the unforgiveable curses, until the Death Eater resurgence resurrected them. QUOTE(fidelia @ May 4 2009, 10:11 AM) Access to a pensieve would be horrific - its use would translate into an inability for wizards and witches to have private memories and thoughts. Just imagine, for a moment, the fact that every character's thoughts, memories and experience could be put on trial! Memory, as we know, is fallacious, and a public sorting through of imperfect, partial, skewed and tampered recollections would be a nightmare. All in all, although Sirius would have benefited from the defense of memory, I think it's a relief that only Albus appears to have had a pensieve. He had the ethical and moral discipline to use it only for good - which, sadly, isn't something we can really say for anyone else in a leadership position in the series or in the MoM.[/color] It's funny. I've always thought about how the memories could be used for good -- particularly by Harry in OotP in convincing the world that Voldemort was back. They could just as easily be used for evil. Speaking of the Ministry leadership, we get a really good look at them in this chapter. Are they immoral or amoral (it ain't personal, it's just political) or incompetent? Crouch, rather than Fudge, is the main Ministry figure here, and he presents sort of a bizarre figure. He's willing to cut a deal with Karkoroff, yet he wants to put Bagman away. He's at his weirdest, of course, when he chairs the hearing that puts his own son away. No one would have blamed him if he had stepped aside, and said, someone else will have to preside over this case, I cannot do it. He strikes me as a true believer, Crusader, Puritan, Spanish Inquisition type guy. Fudge, to me, was just incompetent. Umbridge was pretty much evil. -------------------- That which Voldemort does not value, he takes no trouble to comprehend. Of house-elves and children's tales, of love, loyalty, and innocence, Voldemort knows and understands nothing. Nothing. That they all have a power beyond his own, a power beyond the reach of any magic, is a truth he has never grasped.
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May 4 2009, 04:33 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 213 Joined: 8:33pm January 11, 2009 Location: Wilmington, NC |
interesting topic about the pensieve! yes, i agree with what everyone says about them being rare, and i also agree that they are would be harmful if they were easily avaliable. i know that they help harry here in this chapter, but i still feel like more harm than good can come out of them.
i always think of the memory that harry found of snape being tormented by james. that must have been extremely painful for severus, and putting it in the pensieve was his way of not having to deal with it. i cannot imagine not only having a device that would allow others to see some of my most horrific memories. -------------------- Read books - formulate independent thought.
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May 4 2009, 05:19 PM
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Neville's Biggest supporter  Posts: 11,752 Joined: 8:51am January 28, 2006 Location: On V.S.D.G.  |
QUOTE – Everyone is quiet and there seems to be tension in the room. Your thoughts? Presence of Dementors? Karkaroff? Lord Voldemort? This seems to be similar to the Muggle courts, where everyone is serious. The people gathered know that there is a serious crime. The Dementors in the court add to the atmostphere. The people gathered also know that Voldemort was getting stronger. QUOTE – What do you think about Moody's comments? Does this scene show his feelings for all Death Eaters or just his hatred for Karkaroff's having turned informant? Moody is a seasoned Auror, who has put a lot of Death Eaters in jail. He dislikes anyone who would wnat to come to the other side, just to get out of trouble. He also lost a eye during action as a Auror. --------------------  (Avatar from Hagiographer13, Neville Siggy from Dreamteam and Reading Group siggy from fw00per) Strength is ... the capacity to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your bare hands - and then eat just one piece |
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May 4 2009, 08:40 PM
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Knockturn Alley Fingernail Vendor Posts: 781 Joined: 2:36pm May 20, 2006 Location: a cozy little corner reading and knitting |
I agree with Fricka and JaneMarpe9. The courtroom is usually a solemn and quiet location. The unknown events raise the tension for most individuals in court. I think the Dementor added to the tension though. Most wizards do not want to be close to them even if they are not on trial. I often wonder what others in the audience felt about Kararoff going free. They have lived through a vicious war at the hands of Lord Voldemort, and probably have lost loved ones. Yet, here is a strong supporter turning on his fellow Death Eaters. Kararoff’’s sincerity is definitely questionable here. And he is still quite dangerous.
Similar to your thoughts, Nicole, I think Dumbledore fought more with is mind and Moody fight against the Death Eater was definitely more physical. As evidence shows, Moody lost body parts and his good looks. Dumbledore has a full head and beard of silver, and I don’t think it is just from age. Dumbledore has been through many, many battles both physical and mental. But with his intelligence, his best efforts are the mental achievements he has gained. Good questions LulaL. I not sure that Lord Voldemort would have trusted his thoughts to a Pensieve. While he trusted parts of his soul to the horcruxes, he hid them quite well and guarded them dearly. He did not even tell his closest followers. It would have been too easy for someone to come upon Volde’s thoughts swimming in a pool of silver. It would not due for someone like Dumbledore or Harry to get inside Volde’s inner most thoughts. -------------------- Fantastic siggie by Twiddlethosedials |
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