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Chapter 37: The Lost Prophecy, Another installment of "Dumbledore Explains It All..."
enchantedphoenix
post Oct 11 2009, 01:07 PM
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Chapter 37
The Lost Prophecy

Another installment of "Dumbledore Explains It All..."
All page numbers are from the Scholastic Hardcover Edition

Quick Recap:
  • Harry returns to Dumbledore's office full of guilt for Sirius's death.
  • Dumbledore also returns with news that no students were mortally harmed during the fight with the Death Eaters.
  • CAPSLock Harry returns to the scene as Harry lets his frustrations loose on Dumbledore.
  • Dumbledrore finally explains some things to Harry about his suspicions of the strong mental connection between Harry and Voldemort, Kreacher's leaving to go to Narcissa Malfoy, and how the Order found the DA in the Ministry.
  • Harry also learns about the special enchantment Dumbledore used to keep Harry safe as long as he returns to Privet Drive once a year.
  • We hear the full prophecy from Dumbledore's memory, said by Professor Trelawney—"Neither can live while the other survives." (p. 841) and find out that an eavesdropper (hmmm…) told Voldemort part of the prophecy, which is why Voldy went after Harry's parents.
  • Dumbledore confesses many mistakes that were made out of love.

Pretty exciting POINTS TO PONDER!:

Dumbledore tells Harry, "The fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength." (p. 823) Do you agree with this statement and why or why not? What do you think Dumbledore means by this? Why would Voldemort not have this strength?

Compare Harry and Dumbledore's temperaments in the first part of this chapter—Harry's shouting and Dumbledore's super-calm response? Do you think these reactions are appropriate or not? Why does Dumbledore remain so very quiet and calm? What does each reaction say about their respective characters?

Dumbledore says that Voldemort's aim in possessing Harry would have been Harry's destruction not Dumbledore's. (p. 828) Do you agree with this and why or why not? Why wouldn't Voldemort have used Harry to try and attack Dumbledore? Why would he have used the connection to try and destroy Harry instead?

Who do you think holds the most blame for Sirius's death? Voldemort? Harry? Dumbledore? Kreacher? Bellatrix?

As always, answer as many or as few questions as you would like, and feel free to add your own thoughts, questions, observations, etc. Have fun!




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Sirius_Craic
post Oct 13 2009, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE(paint it Black @ Oct 12 2009, 09:43 AM) *
Given all this information, and combined with knowledge from the rest of the series, I'm forced to conclude that Dumbledore primarily regarded Sirius as a pawn in his chess game of Harry's life. Dumbledore had Hagrid make it clear to Sirius from the start that he was to stay out of the way where Harry was concerned, even though James and Lily wanted Sirius to raise Harry if anything were to happen to them. So I don't think it would have mattered one bit to Dumbledore if Sirius had stayed in Azkaban if it didn't come to be important to Harry. It's always been hard for me to believe that it was really that easy for Dumbledore to believe that James' dearest mate was the one to betray him; he had not enough doubt to even check out the facts of the story just a little? When Sirius did become free, and Harry began to care about him, Dumbledore used this to his advantage. When Harry had concerns that he wanted to share with someone like a parent, he went to Sirius, who in turn shared the information with Dumbledore. Dumbledore valued the service enabled by Harry and Sirius' relationship so that he kept Sirius a captive in his old home, exacerbating the instability of his already fragile mental health when he certainly could have made some arrangement to get Sirius a few whiffs of freedom had he cared to do so. I might even go as far to say that Dumbledore's disregard for Sirius extended to the point of him not rounding up Bellatrix with the other Death Eaters when Sirius was dueling with her -- why would he effortlessly round up the other Death Eaters but let her fight on? It is a pretty cynical view, but it would be hard to argue that it wouldn't be easier for Dumbledore to get Harry to walk into that forest without Sirius standing in the way. ponder.gif

Let me just appaulde that because you said everything I was thinking but in a better way than I ever could. It suited DD very nicely that Sirius was arrested and remained a wanted man until his death because otherwise he would have had to explain to Harry why he still had to remain with the Dursleys.
And i'm not trying to be harsh on Dumbledore, I just see it as him being out of character. Sure he used people as pawns 'for the greater good' but to me it just felt he was far more callous about it with regards Sirius. In the end I guess that's just how the story had to go. Too bad such a loyal and loveable character as Sirius had to be the one who got cheated.

Who do you think holds the most blame for Sirius's death? Voldemort? Harry? Dumbledore? Kreacher? Bellatrix?

I would have added both Sirius and Snape into that equation too. I think that snide comment Snape made about Sirius sitting safely at home cut at Sirius' heart more than we are led to believe. Left to simmer over than and then told Harry is in danger it was obvious Sirius was going to rush to Harrys aid. He would have died for James, he would have, and did, die for Harry. It was a noble death for Sirius, it's just heartbreaking for Harry, he so desperately wanted Sirius in his life.

Over all I think it was a mixture of all off the above. Some more than others, Harry the least, that damn veil the most!


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Expelliarmas
post Oct 13 2009, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE(paint it Black @ Oct 12 2009, 11:37 PM) *
QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 12 2009, 11:19 AM) *
This may be Dumbledore's biggest problem. He has no one in whom he can confide--not because there is no one who would gladly serve as a confidant, but because he chooses not to confide. This is Dumbledore's choice--he lives a life of isolation for all that he is surrounded by people who genuinely love and respect him. Does any one else wonder why Dumbledore is so loathe to accept the love everyone so happily shows him? Why can't he accept that love and trust in one of those loving people?

Yeah; what gives? As I said earlier, one guess is that maybe Grindelwald ruined him for ever trusting anyone again.....

QUOTE(The-T-Dane @ Oct 12 2009, 03:28 PM) *
....It was "My plan" here and "my plan" there ... Why??? How wise is it to be so alone with something so important for so many people? As sver/nor points out, there was a lot of people he COULD trust and he should have known it after the many years he'd known the people in the Order and some of the ones in the school! ....

Exactly. He knows so many Order members from back in the first war; why would he not think that collaboration with someone like McGonagall or Moody would be valuable? As you point out, the stakes are high here -- the whole wizarding world is at stake. I thought Dumbledore believed that he could not be trusted with too much power, yet he chooses to be all-powerful here in crafting Harry's path to defeating Voldemort. Another irony is this: throughout the books, Dumbledore impresses upon Harry the importance of the trust and support of his friends. I would go as far as to say that it is a theme in the series. So why does Dumbledore thumb his nose at the concept of trusting the friends in his own life?


Grindewald occurred many years before the Voldemort/Harry saga. You would think Dumbledore would have gotten over it already. Grindewald did not betray Dumbledore's trust. Dumbledore himself chose not to see Grindewald as he was because he thought he and Grindewald would be the young guns who changed the world for the greater good. Dumbledore turned a blind and delusional eye to Grindewald's inate cruelty in the headlong pursuit of their own grand plant. It was only Arianna's death which awoke in Dumbledore a self-awareness of the love of power.

The secrecy tendency, however, was with Dumbledore all his life. We learn this in DH when the old geezer who thinks himself Dumbledore's closest friend says that not a lot was known about Dumbledore or his family. Dumbledore never chose to confide in any one while he was a student at Hogwarts and he certainly didn't do it as a teacher. Aberforth tells us Dumbledore learned this trait from his mother, Kendra.

I agree with you that Dumbledore says he learned he could never be trusted with power, but he takes the ever-powerful role of sole decision-maker in Harry's life. He even cut Sirius out of the decision-making role and certainly did not seem to seek any consultation with Sirius before continuing to make decisions which would impact Harry's life so implicitly. Dumbledore moves Harry around the chess board while he and Voldemort play the ultimate game of wizard's chess.

I don't know that Dumbledore wanted Sirius dead or not. Had Harry insisted on living with Sirius during the holidays, this could have been arranged. Remember, Harry only had to be able to call #4 Privet Drive "home" and return there once per year to re-engage the charm. Harry ended up spending a large part of the summer and the Christmas holiday with Sirius at #12 Grimmauld Place. Sirius would not have been happy about Harry having to walk into the forest as a sacrificial lamb, but he would have accepted that this was Harry's choice to make. Sirius would have also thought James would have made the sacrifice and he would have known Lily would make such a sacrifice given that she gave her life for Harry. In the end, Dumbledore did tell Snape what lay in store for Harry only because Snape insisted on knowing. I think Sirius would have insisted as well.


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paint it Black
post Oct 14 2009, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 13 2009, 07:44 PM) *
Grindewald occurred many years before the Voldemort/Harry saga. You would think Dumbledore would have gotten over it already. Grindewald did not betray Dumbledore's trust. Dumbledore himself chose not to see Grindewald as he was because he thought he and Grindewald would be the young guns who changed the world for the greater good. Dumbledore turned a blind and delusional eye to Grindewald's inate cruelty in the headlong pursuit of their own grand plant. It was only Arianna's death which awoke in Dumbledore a self-awareness of the love of power.

I guess that I was thinking that Dumbledore might have generalized this more, as if he were thinking, The last time I trusted someone enough to unite my ideas with theirs, my ideas got corrupted. Even if it was his own delusion that led to this, he may have concluded that collaboration in general did not work very well for him. Then again, Dumbledore might not think that way....

QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 13 2009, 07:44 PM) *
The secrecy tendency, however, was with Dumbledore all his life. We learn this in DH when the old geezer who thinks himself Dumbledore's closest friend says that not a lot was known about Dumbledore or his family. Dumbledore never chose to confide in any one while he was a student at Hogwarts and he certainly didn't do it as a teacher. Aberforth tells us Dumbledore learned this trait from his mother, Kendra.

Ah yes, the "secrets and lies"; good point. I got the impression that this was all about the 'family secrets' though, everything regarding Arianna (which would need to include his mother's secluded life, his father's imprisonment, his estrangement from Aberforth, and his friendship with Grindelwald), and not necessarily about anything else. Dumbledore had loads of emotional baggage connected with these events, so I can see why he would keep them secret. But that doesn't quite translate to me why he couldn't share any of his strategies for defeating Voldemort with others. That does seem to be what Aberforth (who also keeps all of these secrets) is implying, though.

QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 13 2009, 07:44 PM) *
I don't know that Dumbledore wanted Sirius dead or not. Had Harry insisted on living with Sirius during the holidays, this could have been arranged. Remember, Harry only had to be able to call #4 Privet Drive "home" and return there once per year to re-engage the charm....

I'm not sure that I can say for sure that Dumbledore wanted Sirius dead, just that it would be easier for him if he were out of the way, such that it would not be worth it for him to put forth much effort into keeping him alive. It certainly wasn't an easy task for Dumbledore to instantly figure out the implications of the failed attempt on Harry's life, what it meant in regards to the prophecy, and how Harry should live his life in order to achieve the best outcome. So part of Dumbledore might have been thinking, Since I believe the best way to keep Harry safe from Voldemort is to have him live with his Aunt, it works out well that his headstrong godfather happens to be out of the picture. Having this thought in the back of his head could have overridden any doubt that Dumbledore may have had of Sirius' guilt, and wiped out any motivation he might have had to seek the truth about the matter. I don't think that he knew for sure that Sirius was innocent and purposely left in him Azkaban hoping he'd die. I just think that it was convenient for him and his plans for Harry to have Sirius out of the way. In other circumstances where it appeared that Sirius' life could be in danger, I think that Dumbledore was content to just see how they played out. I don't think he would have purposely done something to bring about Sirius' death.

QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 13 2009, 07:44 PM) *
...Sirius would not have been happy about Harry having to walk into the forest as a sacrificial lamb, but he would have accepted that this was Harry's choice to make. Sirius would have also thought James would have made the sacrifice and he would have known Lily would make such a sacrifice given that she gave her life for Harry....

I'm not sure that Dumbledore trusted Sirius enough to think that he would come to this conclusion. I know that he did not trust him enough (perhaps rightly so) to allow him even the slightest amount of freedom in OotP, even though the grand assembly of wizarding knowledge assembled in the Order could certainly have come up with some way to keep him safe and undetected for brief periods of time. I think it is possible that Dumbledore just didn't want to take the risk that Sirius would do something to make his plans with Harry more difficult. There was certainly a lot at stake, and as Sirius_Craic mentioned, Sirius might just have been a victim for 'the greater good'.

QUOTE(Sirius_Craic @ Oct 13 2009, 05:20 PM) *
Who do you think holds the most blame for Sirius's death? Voldemort? Harry? Dumbledore? Kreacher? Bellatrix?

....Over all I think it was a mixture of all off the above. Some more than others, Harry the least, that damn veil the most!

Yeah..... How come no Accio Sirius! if it took Sirius "an age to fall"? Someone stop that stinkin' veil from takin' 'im! wink.gif


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twiddlethosedial...
post Oct 16 2009, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE(paint it Black @ Oct 14 2009, 01:14 AM) *
QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 13 2009, 07:44 PM) *
...Sirius would not have been happy about Harry having to walk into the forest as a sacrificial lamb, but he would have accepted that this was Harry's choice to make. Sirius would have also thought James would have made the sacrifice and he would have known Lily would make such a sacrifice given that she gave her life for Harry....

I'm not sure that Dumbledore trusted Sirius enough to think that he would come to this conclusion. I know that he did not trust him enough (perhaps rightly so) to allow him even the slightest amount of freedom in OotP, even though the grand assembly of wizarding knowledge assembled in the Order could certainly have come up with some way to keep him safe and undetected for brief periods of time. I think it is possible that Dumbledore just didn't want to take the risk that Sirius would do something to make his plans with Harry more difficult. There was certainly a lot at stake, and as Sirius_Craic mentioned, Sirius might just have been a victim for 'the greater good'.



I wonder if Dumbledore sort of failed both Sirius and Harry in the same way in this book. Instead of cluing either one of them into the bigger picture, he left them to their own devices, and in both cases there was damage. Sirius was not the kind of guy to sit quietly at home, stirring his tea. And Harry was not the kind of kid (with his saving people thing) not to try to use any ability to his advantage, so when Dumbledore didn't come completely clean with him about the connection with Voldemort, the only thing Harry thought of was using it to his advantage to save Sirius, and not the possibility that he was being used.

In both cases, Sirius and Harry were ultimately led out to Sirius's peril.

So I guess you could say Dumbledore is somewhat to blame for Sirius's death, if only because he wasn't completely honest with Harry or Sirius. BUT... what if he had been? I don't think it would've been the same series at all.


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Expelliarmas
post Oct 17 2009, 12:16 PM
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No, the series would not have been the same at all if one or any of the points we have discussed had occurred. That consideration, however, does not distract from the points made that Dumbledore's failure to trust his fellow Order members worked a great deal of mischief in OOTP and really throughout the series.

I wonder, for example, how much Dumbledore told the Potters and the Longbottoms about the Prophecy. We know the Potters went into hiding, but we never hear of the Longbottoms being hidden as well. We know from PoA, that James did not believe Sirius was a spy and gave him the job of secret-keeper. Did Dumbledore present James and Lily with evidence that someone was working against the Order? We don't know.

In PoA, why didn't anyone think it fit to give Harry the story of Sirius' relationship to the Potters? Could it be because Dumbledore did not want Harry to know? How much more reckless did Harry become as a result of finding out that Sirius was his godfather and was accused of betraying the Potters? Had he known, would Harry have clandestinely gone into Hogsmeade or would he have stayed at Hogwarts?

It seems to be an endless list of important information being kept from Harry throughout the series which leads to various incidents. Some of the incidents help Harry, others work to his detriment. The wonder of it all is that Harry doesn't really understand that he's been kept in the dark by Dumbledore until DH and then he becomes rather angry about it. Harry being Harry, he does forgive Dumbledore for using him.


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paint it Black
post Oct 18 2009, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 17 2009, 01:16 PM) *
...I wonder, for example, how much Dumbledore told the Potters and the Longbottoms about the Prophecy. We know the Potters went into hiding, but we never hear of the Longbottoms being hidden as well....

How long after the prophecy was made was the windy hilltop meeting where Snape revealed to Dumbledore how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy? If it was shortly thereafter, the Longbottom's would then be known not to be a target, and perhaps they were not hidden as a result.

QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 17 2009, 01:16 PM) *
...We know from PoA, that James did not believe Sirius was a spy and gave him the job of secret-keeper. Did Dumbledore present James and Lily with evidence that someone was working against the Order? We don't know.

Dumbledore probably did tell the Potters of his suspicions (I don't know about actual evidence -- that would probably reveal the identity of his spy...) -- that might be why he offered to make himself their secret-keeper. I wonder why it was so easy for Dumbledore to believe that James' best mate Sirius was the spy. Perhaps Voldemort used Peter Pettigrew in a Kreacher-like role; having him pass information about the Potter's plans to him, and having him pass on information in order to manipulate the Potters. Maybe Voldemort had Peter play Dumbledore and Sirius against each other: he had Peter tell the Potters things to get them to doubt Dumbledore so that they would not use him as their secret-keeper, and had him tell Dumbledore things to make him doubt Sirius so that Dumbldore would tell the Potters not to use Sirius as their secret-keeper. Maybe the Potters then felt that Dumbledore was starting to manipulate them (as he later did to Harry) too much for their liking and wanted him to back off. If the Potters did doubt Dumbledore, they might have rebuffed him by insisting that they would be using Sirius as their secret-keeper. James, Lily and Sirius could then shut out Dumbledore further by switching secret-keepers and not telling him. Obviously this plan backfired - maybe this is what Voldemort was counting on. Also, maybe the things that Peter told Dumbledore to make him doubt Sirius had a grain of truth in them, and this made Dumbledore unreasonably continue to doubt Sirius' trustworthiness throughout the years, even after he found out that Sirius did not betray the Potters.

QUOTE(Expelliarmas @ Oct 17 2009, 01:16 PM) *
...In PoA, why didn't anyone think it fit to give Harry the story of Sirius' relationship to the Potters? Could it be because Dumbledore did not want Harry to know? ...

It seems to be an endless list of important information being kept from Harry throughout the series which leads to various incidents. Some of the incidents help Harry, others work to his detriment...

It seems as though Dumbledore (and some other characters) doesn't see the difference between keeping information from Harry to protect his physical well being and protecting him emotionally. Keeping information from Harry to try to protect his feelings, like the awful truth about the prophecy, or the fact that his parents' best friend (apparently) caused their murders by betraying them, or the fact that Voldemort could trick him into seeing things that were not real, seemed to backfire. Do you think that maybe Dumbledore started to realize the error of his ways in HBP when he started spilling the beans to Harry about Riddle via the Pensieve? It was certainly a big change from his philosophy of keeping secrets in OotP. Or do you think it was just because he knew that he was running out of time?

QUOTE(twiddlethosedials @ Oct 16 2009, 10:23 PM) *
...So I guess you could say Dumbledore is somewhat to blame for Sirius's death, if only because he wasn't completely honest with Harry or Sirius. BUT... what if he had been? I don't think it would've been the same series at all.

Indeed; the whole of OotP is essentially the story of how Dumbedore's mistake plays out. Do you think it possible that JKR was making any statement about trusting children enough to tell them even difficult truths?


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Join us in Jo's Book Nook to discuss The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge and Skellig by David Almond
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