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Christian Symbolism in the Harry Potter Series, Part V

Shard View Member Profile	Sep 27 2007, 07:43 PM Post #1
Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower	And let the discussion recommence. Remember everyone, play nicely! -------------------- "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do."

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Replies (540 - 546)

davidenglish View Member Profile	Oct 15 2007, 10:29 PM Post #541
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	QUOTE(Smullyan_for_DD @ Oct 16 2007, 02:58 AM) QUOTE(davidenglish @ Oct 15 2007, 09:10 PM) QUOTE(Smullyan_for_DD @ Oct 15 2007, 11:48 PM) Well it's Jo's book and the woman isn't given to being trite. She said the name "King's Cross Station" worked well for what she was doing, and you can't get much more Christian than the King's cross. What? I had no idea King George IV was so important to Christianity. I always thought he was the buffoon portrayed by Hugh Laurie in Blackadder III. The Duke of Wellington said of George IV, to quote from Wikipedia............... Ummm.... no..... Really? But the King's Cross was a memorial erected to King George IV, aka Hugh Laurie's Prince Regent. It wasn't consider a great landmark and so nobody fussed when it was torn down to build a train station: Sic transit gloria mundi. Charing Cross Rd, where the Leaky Cauldron is located, is named after a memorial to the Mediavel queen consort Eleanor of Castile, wife of Edward I. QUOTE QUOTE Well, JKR has said she has big problems with organized religion. Could one of those problems be the status of women in the Church? Besides, the BVM is echoed in the treatment of the mothers of the three abandoned boys in the series: Voldemort's Merope Gaunt, Snape's Eileen Prince, and Harry's Lily Evans. I'm really not seeing the symbolism here, the only one of the three we see interacting with the local church is Lily. We also see that her sister Petunia doesn't seem to share her views. Lily interacts with the local church? That's only if we assume Harry's christening was a church affair and her funeral a church service. I was thinking about something said earlier. And I think it's interesting how Voldemort and Dumbledore both have a good idea of how Harry will behave. Voldemort, as a solipsist, thinks people don't exist except as they are useful to him. And Dumbledore, who sees everyone existing in their own right without reference to him. This post has been edited by davidenglish: Oct 15 2007, 10:31 PM -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

fiasco View Member Profile	Oct 16 2007, 02:05 AM Post #542
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 70 Joined: 2:03am August 27, 2007 Location: If there's a bright spot in the universe, the town it's farthest from...	A little aside here: I'm not active in this discussion, yet it sure does follow me off the net! I'm currently reading Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984 by Simon Reynolds and this bit-- Rasta spirituality was something most white Britons couldn't buy into easily. This was partly because of its illiberal traits, such as the nasty streak of antifeminism, but mostly because the absolutism of Rasta's blood-and-fire vision was temperamentally alien to secular British youth, whose idea of religion generally derives from Anglicanism (noncommittal, wishy-washy, as close to being agnostic as one can get without p*****g God off). pg 18 --took me right out of the book and back here, and I sat musing for awhile on this discussion. I don't have anything to add here, except that maybe you guys should quit stalking me, mk? -------------------- "I am afraid that my natural idleness will in the end get the better of what little ambition I have." Charles James Fox "I have achieved mediocrity and am striving toward adequacy." fiasco herself

roonwit View Member Profile	Oct 16 2007, 03:55 AM Post #543
Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic Posts: 9,193 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK	QUOTE(davidenglish @ Oct 16 2007, 12:45 AM) Hmmmm. I don't think this is accurate, roonwit. Ghosts in the Potterverse seem to be extensions of this life. Nick and Prof Binns have left their bodies behind, but not their interest in and occupation in this life. They can't go "on". They have no access to heaven, hell or places in between. They remain imprints on the world of their wizardly selves; like holograms. Ghosts are people who reached the edge of the afterlife but chose to go back, so surely it is possible for those who went deeper into the afterlife would have much more to them. I also think they are more than just memories, because they aren't as Harry remembers them, Sirius and Lupin are much younger. QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Oct 16 2007, 01:46 AM) Roonwit, you are splitting hairs here. the phrase "not necessarily what is really there" means that it's not real! It's in Harry's head--he created it, it's his reality. And the Horcrux may be dying inside him, not at King's Cross. "not necessarily" is definitely different from "not", Jo would surely have said "not" if that is what she meant, so I am not splitting hairs, and Jo wants to leave open the idea that what Harry sees is "there", at least in some sense. And it is muggle thinking to say that something in Harry's head is automatically just something Harry created, particularly when we have seen stuff in Harry's head that is actually real. Also the AK kills instantly, the horcrux in Harry would be dead before he was ever aware of King's Cross. This post has been edited by roonwit: Oct 16 2007, 04:01 AM -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo

Arianhrod View Member Profile	Oct 16 2007, 09:47 AM Post #544
Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd	QUOTE "not necessarily" is definitely different from "not", Jo would surely have said "not" if that is what she meant, so I am not splitting hairs, and Jo wants to leave open the idea that what Harry sees is "there", at least in some sense. Oh, please. How often is she EVER without-a-doubt-committal in her interviews? If you read it in context, what she is saying is that King's Cross is in Harry's head. It's not a real place. And I agree with everyone who says it's a triple-layered reference, none of which has anything to do with Christianity. It's a) a reference to where her parents met; b) a reference to Boudica; and c) the place where Harry's journey to the wizarding world began. QUOTE Also the AK kills instantly, the horcrux in Harry would be dead before he was ever aware of King's Cross. It kills the body instantly. To say that it can destroy a soul instantly is speculation. Even when the body is clinically dead (no heartrate or blood pressure), brain activity continues for several minutes. This post has been edited by Arianhrod: Oct 16 2007, 09:48 AM -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley

roonwit View Member Profile	Oct 16 2007, 10:09 AM Post #545
Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic Posts: 9,193 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK	QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Oct 16 2007, 03:47 PM) QUOTE "not necessarily" is definitely different from "not", Jo would surely have said "not" if that is what she meant, so I am not splitting hairs, and Jo wants to leave open the idea that what Harry sees is "there", at least in some sense. Oh, please. How often is she EVER without-a-doubt-committal in her interviews? She is when she wants to clear something up. She says "not necessarily", so until she says "not", you can't conclude she means "not". QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Oct 16 2007, 03:47 PM) If you read it in context, what she is saying is that King's Cross is in Harry's head. It's not a real place. And I agree with everyone who says it's a triple-layered reference, none of which has anything to do with Christianity. It's a) a reference to where her parents met; b) a reference to Boudica; and c) the place where Harry's journey to the wizarding world began. Then why does she say the name is appropriate? -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo

davidenglish View Member Profile	Oct 16 2007, 11:10 AM Post #546
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	Well, King's Cross has a wealth of associations. JKR called it the most romantic of train stations. roonwit and others can bring their own associations. However, again, a cross is a marker, and King's Cross is a train station or terminus. It's the gateway to another world for Harry. It's where JKR's parents met. It's the station that inspired the whole Potter saga. If one wants to see a Christian image, one can. But what would that mean? As I see it, Harry is in King's Cross along with Dumbledore and some whimpering flayed child whom we presume represents some aspect of Voldemort. Are these three kings? I think we could see them as such. The king is dead, long live the king. Dumbledore and Voldemort have been the key figures in Harry's life. Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort is about to die, and Harry is about to live free, once and for all. But I'm not sure what we'd make of King Jesus of the Cross? Other than being a reference to Christianity, what does it add to the chapter? KC Dumbledore doesn't really offer any clear message about a heaven or a hell. "On" is a very nebulous idea. And Harry is taught to accept his mortality and not to chase after immortality. They seem counterintuitive messages if the title was trying to draw our attention to Jesus of Nazareth. -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

Shard View Member Profile	Oct 16 2007, 11:15 AM Post #547
Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower	Ok Time for a new Christain Symbolism thread! New thread here. Collothreadus This post has been edited by Shard: Oct 16 2007, 11:17 AM -------------------- "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do."

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