Christian Symbolism in the Harry Potter Series, Part VI |
 Oct 16 2007, 11:16 AM
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower  Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower    |
Continue the Christain Symbolism discussion here. Here is a link to Part V.
--------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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Oct 16 2007, 12:27 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 140 Joined: 6:12pm August 1, 2007 |
davidenglish says
QUOTE Well, King's Cross has a wealth of associations. JKR called it the most romantic of train stations. roonwit and others can bring their own associations. However, again, a cross is a marker, and King's Cross is a train station or terminus. It's the gateway to another world for Harry. It's where JKR's parents met. It's the station that inspired the whole Potter saga. If one wants to see a Christian image, one can. But what would that mean? As I see it, Harry is in King's Cross along with Dumbledore and some whimpering flayed child whom we presume represents some aspect of Voldemort. Are these three kings? I think we could see them as such. The king is dead, long live the king. Dumbledore and Voldemort have been the key figures in Harry's life. Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort is about to die, and Harry is about to live free, once and for all. But I'm not sure what we'd make of King Jesus of the Cross? Other than being a reference to Christianity, what does it add to the chapter? KC Dumbledore doesn't really offer any clear message about a heaven or a hell. "On" is a very nebulous idea. And Harry is taught to accept his mortality and not to chase after immortality. They seem counterintuitive messages if the title was trying to draw our attention to Jesus of Nazareth. I agree that King's Cross is meant to represent a gateway to another world for Harry--the place where, for Harry, new adventures begin (whether one has a well organized mind or not). Prior to reading this board, I was not aware that JKR's parents had met at King's Cross, but it is obvious that this place would have special significance to her. I am not sure I can see how a reference to Boudicca works here, other than the fact there is a tradition that her burial lies nearby. If there is a reference to Boudicca, what precisely would JKR be saying with it? I am not saying that it is impossible that there IS a reference--I just don't see what the reference would be telling us. I tend to agree with roonwit's analysis. I do think there is a Christian reference here, and I have said it before. What does it add to the chapter? Well, I would say it adds to the parallels with the story of Christ's death and resurrection. I am very aware that my views aren't shared by everyone on the board. We go around and around in circles, and I don't see that we've really gotten anywhere. In the end, to quote from The Point, you see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear. Three Kings? Maybe... And I agree with you, that Harry is taught to accept his mortality, and not chase after immortality. But I am not sure that the message is counterintuitive to the teachings of Christ. Harry is taught not to seek to evade death. Immortality, as represented by the Hallows, is a hollow dream--but that isn't the same as true Immortality. Dumbledore does tell us what the afterlife is. We are left to wonder. Harry could have chosen to go "on" to somewhere, just as ghosts could have moved on. He chose to return to those he loved, to save them from the evil represented by Voldemort. |
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Oct 16 2007, 02:10 PM
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Rat Spleen Restocker at the Apothecary Posts: 472 Joined: 8:35pm June 2, 2007 Location: In detention, cleaning the floor of the owlry and being bitten for my trouble! |
QUOTE(davidenglish @ Oct 16 2007, 12:10 PM)  Well, King's Cross has a wealth of associations. JKR called it the most romantic of train stations. roonwit and others can bring their own associations. However, again, a cross is a marker, and King's Cross is a train station or terminus. It's the gateway to another world for Harry. It's where JKR's parents met. It's the station that inspired the whole Potter saga. If one wants to see a Christian image, one can. But what would that mean? As I see it, Harry is in King's Cross along with Dumbledore and some whimpering flayed child whom we presume represents some aspect of Voldemort. Are these three kings? I think we could see them as such. The king is dead, long live the king. Dumbledore and Voldemort have been the key figures in Harry's life. Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort is about to die, and Harry is about to live free, once and for all. But I'm not sure what we'd make of King Jesus of the Cross? Other than being a reference to Christianity, what does it add to the chapter? KC Dumbledore doesn't really offer any clear message about a heaven or a hell. "On" is a very nebulous idea. And Harry is taught to accept his mortality and not to chase after immortality. They seem counterintuitive messages if the title was trying to draw our attention to Jesus of Nazareth. She didn't say the place worked well, she said the name worked well. There most certainly is a reference to the warrior queen, but that occurs in book 1, and at the very end of book 7. Those references are not the place name "King's Cross". I think you're seeing the three Kings in toast, my friend!  I believe we had a poster here a couple of threads ago who talked about straw man arguments?! This one appears to be a rhetorical beastie of that variety.
-------------------- 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe. |
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Oct 16 2007, 03:08 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 140 Joined: 6:12pm August 1, 2007 |
QUOTE(Smullyan_for_DD @ Oct 16 2007, 03:10 PM) She didn't say the place worked well, she said the name worked well. There most certainly is a reference to the warrior queen, but that occurs in book 1, and at the very end of book 7. Those references are not the place name "King's Cross". I think you're seeing the three Kings in toast, my friend! I believe we had a poster here a couple of threads ago who talked about straw man arguments?! This one appears to be a rhetorical beastie of that variety.Smullyan, I looked again at Sorcerer's Stone and Deathly Hallows. Where is the reference to Boudicca? I'm just not seeing it... am I missing something? Other than the possible connection between Victoire's name and Boudicca? I'm not discounting a reference--I am just not seeing it. Also, a nice distinction you are making between place and name.... And I don't particularly see a Three Kings reference myself, although I'd like to see the argument fleshed out (as well as Eileen and Merope as BVM references  )
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Oct 16 2007, 03:43 PM
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Knight MacMod The Great Protecting The Memory Of Sense Posts: 2,430 Joined: 7:17pm February 17, 2006 Location: 3rd door on the left, Hogsmeade  |
QUOTE Ariahnrod: It would seem unlikely that AK does destroy the soul at all, unless we can assign a specific definition to the term soul. Something resembling Lily appeared to Harry when he evoked the power of the stone. I do not believe that Dumbledore had put some special curse on the stone to cause it to cast this particular illusion just to encourage Harry to go through with the plan. That is, Lily was killed by AK but her soul seems to be still existing.QUOTE QUOTE It kills the body instantly. To say that it can destroy a soul instantly is speculation. Even when the body is clinically dead (no heartrate or blood pressure), brain activity continues for several minutes.Also the AK kills instantly, the horcrux in Harry would be dead before he was ever aware of King's Cross. Of course it is possible to define things differently. Many people believe the soul is mortal and can be destroyed. They generally see the human creature as having three parts: Body, Soul, and Spirit. Others distuingish only body and soul. The former group sees the spirit as immortal, but not necessarily the soul. From that perspective, we could possibly be seeing something like Lily's spirit, her soul having ceased when her body died (with the soul being the result of a spirit existing in flesh). For those who see two parts to the human creature, that would have been her soul Harry saw. I see no reason to believe that Harry was hallucinating at this point, since the Snitch seems to be doing what it was intended to do--opening at the end so that Harry can use the power of the stone (before conveniently losing it in the forest). Something that was Lily, call it spirit or soul, was beyond the power of AK to destroy. I think your point about the action of the AK on the body is interesting. It kills the body, but apparently leaves it physically unharmed; Harry was able to get up, brush off the leaves and dirt, and move on. So, how does that work? Is it a spell that simply separates body and soul (or body and spirit) without actually damaging either? --------------------  click the Q "And, if there is need to speak in brief summary of this power, we shall find that none of the things which are done with intelligence take place without the help of speech, but that in all our actions as well as in all our thoughts speech is our guide, . . ." Isocrates, Antidosis |
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Oct 16 2007, 03:44 PM
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Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag |
I'm not sure what Smully is referring to. And I've never mentioned toast in this entire series of threads.
The name works well. How? We have two words King + Cross. It's literally one of the most famous train stations in Britain, with only Waterloo, Victoria and Paddington to rival it. The name comes from a monument to King George IV, aka Hugh Laurie. King's + Cross? So, if we say King = Jesus and Cross = Resurrection, then we see King's Cross as a metaphor for the Harrowing of Hell. But this is Harry's party and he's not really dead. So, we don't see any other dead people, except Dumbledore who says he's in Harry's head and the whimpering soul fragment, which had been literally inside Harry's head. It's an imperfect but plausible match. Kings + Cross? Well, not that I'm looking at toast, but cross could be a verb. Then we'd have some authority figures passing each other. That could describe the meeting between Harry and Dumbledore. They meet at last as equals. No more secrets. And Dumbledore parts with the words, "Then we say goodbye for the present." As to the abandoned boys, I see a series of Madonna & Child images. Merope who is abandoned by Tom Sr and must give birth to her baby in an orphanage. Eileen Prince, who marries a Muggle and gives birth to Severus, but Tobias Snape hates magic and the couple quarrel endlessly. And Harry, who is the subject of a prophecy that places his life in danger and causes his parents to flee and go into hiding. Merope, as the pregnant Mary who gives birth in a barn, while Tom Sr/Joseph quietly divorces her (no angel appears to say it's okay), and the same with Tobias, who seems to feel annoyed with the miracluous power of his wife and son. (Both Matthew and Luke have genealogies that trace Jesus' ancestry through Joseph's line, though he's supposedly NOT the father.) And James, Lily and baby Harry echo the flight into Egypt. I don't recall any mention in the books of Boudica either. It's true that King's Cross is said to be built on the site of her last battle and resting spot, but that just makes in a hallowed site in the history of Celtic Britain. Added note on ghosts, ghosts in the Potterverse do not behave as ghosts do in the our world. They do not go "on" and then come back. What makes a Potterverse ghost is a wizard so frightened of death and going "on" that it never does die. It's never crossed the threshold, gone through the Veil, or caught a train to "on". Through some enchantment of fear and loathing, a witch or wizard leaves an impression of itself while sacrificing any chance of joining whatever unknowable adventure lies beyond. It's not proof of an Afterlife, but of supreme cowardice in this life. Ghosts in our world go to the land of the dead and return to haunt from this other place; Potterverse ghosts never go anywhere but here. This post has been edited by davidenglish: Oct 16 2007, 03:50 PM -------------------- Come the words that bubble
Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!" |
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Oct 16 2007, 03:52 PM
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Rat Spleen Restocker at the Apothecary Posts: 472 Joined: 8:35pm June 2, 2007 Location: In detention, cleaning the floor of the owlry and being bitten for my trouble! |
QUOTE(ravenclaw wannabe @ Oct 16 2007, 04:08 PM) QUOTE(Smullyan_for_DD @ Oct 16 2007, 03:10 PM) She didn't say the place worked well, she said the name worked well. There most certainly is a reference to the warrior queen, but that occurs in book 1, and at the very end of book 7. Those references are not the place name "King's Cross". I think you're seeing the three Kings in toast, my friend! I believe we had a poster here a couple of threads ago who talked about straw man arguments?! This one appears to be a rhetorical beastie of that variety.Smullyan, I looked again at Sorcerer's Stone and Deathly Hallows. Where is the reference to Boudicca? I'm just not seeing it... am I missing something? Other than the possible connection between Victoire's name and Boudicca? I'm not discounting a reference--I am just not seeing it. Also, a nice distinction you are making between place and name.... And I don't particularly see a Three Kings reference myself, although I'd like to see the argument fleshed out (as well as Eileen and Merope as BVM references )Thank you  I think the reference to Boudicca is in Platform 9 3/4 as that is where she was said to have fallen and legend has it that her ghost haunts the place. We can go on with the Arthurian legend from here, but that's another thread (and besides, it doesn't explain the "Cross" in "King's Cross", or the theme of redemption in offering Voldemort one last chance to repent, that being an option for him solely by the presence of Harry's blood!). I'm truly not seeing the BVM reference for Eileen and Merope either, Lily yes. -------------------- 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe. |
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Oct 16 2007, 05:08 PM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,963 Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005 Location: at Home or somewhere in between |
Part of the significance of Boudicca was that she led a resistance against the imperial Roman forces: a freedom fighter. Harry gave a passive resistance by allowing himself to be killed, which ended up becoming a killing blow against an imperial take-over. Boudica dies in her active resistance, while Harry retains his life by passively resisting - the wisdom lies in knowing when to act and when not to act. In a way, the passive (female) and active (male) roles are reversed, emphasizing that there is more potential in a passive role: Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Boudicca made herself "male" and lost, while Harry made himself "female" and won.
The books don't mention Boudicca, but there is a solid historical reference, which those who are "in the know" might see without a second thought. As for the BVM references, I see them as potentially represented by each Merope, Eileen and Lily. Merope as the Pistis Sophia , Eileen as the BVM to the Severus Snape "Christ Figure" which I brought up a few threads ago, and Lily as the "perfected" Mother figure. I also see references to the Triple Headed Goddess of Maiden/Mother/Crone = Merope/Lily/Eileen. Merope I see as "maiden" here, because "maiden" can also be a reference to one who has never known Love. This post has been edited by momwitch: Oct 16 2007, 05:11 PM -------------------- Avatar made with Poser 6 and Photoshop Elements
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Oct 16 2007, 06:51 PM
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Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag |
QUOTE(momwitch @ Oct 16 2007, 10:08 PM) As for the BVM references, I see them as potentially represented by each Merope, Eileen and Lily. Merope as the Pistis Sophia , Eileen as the BVM to the Severus Snape "Christ Figure" which I brought up a few threads ago, and Lily as the "perfected" Mother figure. I also see references to the Triple Headed Goddess of Maiden/Mother/Crone = Merope/Lily/Eileen. Merope I see as "maiden" here, because "maiden" can also be a reference to one who has never known Love. Interesting thoughts, momwitch.It's not necessary to match a Madonna & Child image, unless one is pushing for an allegorical interpretation --and, heavens! no one wants that. What we do see is "the abandoned boys" as having a serious mother/son connection. Merope dies in the same Dickensian fashion as Oliver Twist's mother, Agnes. But this also bears some resemblence to Luke's version of the Nativity with no room at the inn and a manger for a craddle and shepherds instead of wisemen. Certainly Voldemort is a Christ-figure, if one is looking for one. Eileen Prince is a pureblood witch who marries a Muggle. It's an unhappy marriage and Tobias Snape seems to hate all things magic, including his wife and son, Severus. What is similar here is the relationship of Joseph to Mary & Jesus. In Matthew, Joseph is going to divorce Mary because she's been impregnated by the Holy Ghost. Only the intercession of an angel stops this. In truth, Joseph drops out of the Gospel narrative after Jesus turns twelve and Severus leaves his parents at roughly the same age. Harry, of course, has the prophecy that causes him to be hunted down as Herod had Jesus hunted down. Harry's placement with his aunt and uncle is akin to Cinderella or the Biblical tale of Moses, or Oliver Twist. Whatever the Biblical or non-Biblical links, we have three boys with strong mother figures. Voldemort may not think his mother was strong, but she'd been beaten down by her father and brother long before she gave birth to him. And giving birth was the most important thing she'd ever done. And it killed her. Snape's mother clearly made a mistake marrying Tobias, but Snape blamed his father entirely and hated Muggles because he hated his father. And Lily loved her son so much that she created a magical enchantment that protected him from the Killing Curse. This post has been edited by davidenglish: Oct 16 2007, 06:52 PM -------------------- Come the words that bubble
Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!" |
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Oct 16 2007, 07:22 PM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
QUOTE(wordsaremagic @ Oct 16 2007, 04:43 PM) Of course it is possible to define things differently. Many people believe the soul is mortal and can be destroyed. They generally see the human creature as having three parts: Body, Soul, and Spirit. Others distuingish only body and soul. The former group sees the spirit as immortal, but not necessarily the soul. From that perspective, we could possibly be seeing something like Lily's spirit, her soul having ceased when her body died (with the soul being the result of a spirit existing in flesh). For those who see two parts to the human creature, that would have been her soul Harry saw. And in this case, the soul would be sentient. Another case in point for that is the flayed baby at King's Cross. It looks human (sort of), it looks alive as it struggles for breath. Yet another example is in the locket horcrux; it tormented Ron and anyone who came in contact with it for too long, just like the Ring of Power. The ring wanted to get back to its master...and perhaps the soul bit inside the locket wanted to get back to Voldemort. QUOTE I see no reason to believe that Harry was hallucinating at this point, since the Snitch seems to be doing what it was intended to do--opening at the end so that Harry can use the power of the stone (before conveniently losing it in the forest). Something that was Lily, call it spirit or soul, was beyond the power of AK to destroy. I tend to think of this as a sort of hologram reproduction. I don't think James, Lily, Sirius, and Lupin had the power to act, only to guide. What they really are, we may never know. I hope this is one of the questions JKR answers this week. QUOTE I think your point about the action of the AK on the body is interesting. It kills the body, but apparently leaves it physically unharmed; Harry was able to get up, brush off the leaves and dirt, and move on. So, how does that work? Is it a spell that simply separates body and soul (or body and spirit) without actually damaging either? Well, you can survive without your soul. The dementors are proof of that. To truly live, you need all three: body, soul, and spirit/mind. That's why Voldemort needed a body so badly. The soul cannot exist for long without a body to house it in, until it crosses over. Voldemort's could cross over, because his Horcruxes tethered it to this side of the veil. It could be just as you say, wordsaremagic. AK does split the soul from the body--we see that in Voldemort's memory of Godric's Hollow. He is ripped from his body--he says it is pain beyond pain, but that's probably because he couldn't actually go anywhere, tethered as he was. It has to cause more damage than that, though. When you lose your soul to the dementors, you continue to exist. The AK must physically kill the body by destroying the other life processes in some way. I'll think on that one. QUOTE(Smullyan_for_DD @ Oct 16 2007, 04:52 PM) QUOTE(ravenclaw wannabe @ Oct 16 2007, 04:08 PM) QUOTE(Smullyan_for_DD @ Oct 16 2007, 03:10 PM) She didn't say the place worked well, she said the name worked well. There most certainly is a reference to the warrior queen, but that occurs in book 1, and at the very end of book 7. Those references are not the place name "King's Cross". I think you're seeing the three Kings in toast, my friend! I believe we had a poster here a couple of threads ago who talked about straw man arguments?! This one appears to be a rhetorical beastie of that variety.Smullyan, I looked again at Sorcerer's Stone and Deathly Hallows. Where is the reference to Boudicca? I'm just not seeing it... am I missing something? Other than the possible connection between Victoire's name and Boudicca? I'm not discounting a reference--I am just not seeing it. Also, a nice distinction you are making between place and name.... And I don't particularly see a Three Kings reference myself, although I'd like to see the argument fleshed out (as well as Eileen and Merope as BVM references )Thank you I think the reference to Boudicca is in Platform 9 3/4 as that is where she was said to have fallen and legend has it that her ghost haunts the place. We can go on with the Arthurian legend from here, but that's another thread (and besides, it doesn't explain the "Cross" in "King's Cross", or the theme of redemption in offering Voldemort one last chance to repent, that being an option for him solely by the presence of Harry's blood!). I'm truly not seeing the BVM reference for Eileen and Merope either, Lily yes. Boudica's name means Victory. Interesting that we see another Victorie at the same spot, after the defeat of Voldemort. The word "Cross" in King's Cross denotes a junction of Euston, St. Pancras and Pentonville roads, where the monument to George IV was built. No Christian symbolism there.
-------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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