Confusion over the Time Turner, Confusion over the Time Turner - POA |
 Jul 29 2010, 01:13 AM
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#1
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 3 Joined: 12:48am July 29, 2010  |
Hi,
Recently started reading HP. I am a fan of LOTR so started with HP a bit late. Catching up with HP and recently read Prisoner of Azkaban. Now, most confusing part after reading novel and watching the movie. I am really confused with the idea of Time Turner. Following are my points with regards to it. Please help me understand this thoroughly. 1. All said and done, Harry ran behind Sirius and Lupin into the forbidden forest. Harmonie followed Harry as well. 2. When dementers were sucking everything out of Sirius, Harry and Harmonie, Harry saw somebody came to rescue and the Petronus charm made all dementers go away. 3. So far so good, Harry and Harmonie were admitted to the hospital and Sirius was kept in jail. 4. Now here comes Dumbledore and asked Harry and Harmonie to save 2 innocent lives by indirectly suggesting them to use Time Turner. If we see the events after this, Harry himself cast the Petronus to save himself, Sirius and Harmonie from the other side of the lake. Now, again come back to the Hospital scene, here dumbledore asked them to go into the past. The past is that Harry was saved by Harry himself which has not yet happened. So in a way, if Harry, Harmonie and Sirius were saved already, that does mean, Harry and Harmonie were already present on the other side of the lake, then why Dumbledore asked them to yet again go back into the past?? If both of the events have already happened (Harry with other 2 dying on one side of the lake and then Harry on the other side saving them using Patronus), why Dumbledore should ask them again to go back. This left me wondering, weather there is any flaw with this scene in the book OR I am not getting this concept at all. I hope you guys must be having some logical reasoning behind this scene. |
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Jul 29 2010, 06:58 AM
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#2
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 917 Joined: 10:47am February 19, 2007 Location: at home  |
I've noticed this too, and i've never been able to get my head around it.
Personally, i think it's a flaw in the logic. Time travel is one the most complex theories out there, and so I can understand why there may be some issues regarding it. Time travel into the past, I believe, is impossible, regardless of magic, for a reason which i really can't articulate properly but i'll give it a shot: If something happens that we want to change, we must go into the past to do this, and make the change. But in doing so we eradicate whatever the flaw was initially and so their should be no knowledge of this flaw, therefore, it never registers with us that the change has been made, and so the past becomes what we wanted it to be. It just doesnt work. And I think thats why it doesn't translate properly in the book. For Harry to have made the change in the future by coming into the past, then the change should have existed all along, but that couldnt have worked. I have mixed feelings towards the use of time travel in books, because i think for it to be used it should have no flaws, only one book i've ever read has done this, unfortunately it's not POA. I overlook it though, because it's the only flaw in the logic i have ever encountered within the HP books. -------------------- All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream - Edgar Allan Poe
To the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure - Albus Dumbledore Thanks to JeffHPFan for the avatar :) |
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Jul 29 2010, 08:31 AM
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#3
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 174 Joined: 9:29am October 15, 2009 |
It also confused me that Dumbledore seemed to know what was going on outside Hagrid's cabin while talking the members of the commitee and Fudge through the proceedings of the execution. He is not in the least surprised when they discover that Buckbeak is gone. He can't already know by then how it happened really, or can he?
-------------------- -I have measured out my life with coffee spoons. -
*T.S. Eliot* |
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Jul 29 2010, 01:32 PM
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#4
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 11:16am March 17, 2007 |
This is how I understand it, on the first read through, the things that they go back and do, have been done. For instance, Buckbeak.
The book doesn't say that he was killed in the begining, the trio assume he has been because after they leave they only hear the events. They do not actually see Buckbeak executed. With the dementors Harry, Sirius and Hermione are saved by who Harry believes to be his father. As it turns out it is him in the end and he is able to do it because he had already done it. Dumbledore knows all of this because he is the one that sent them back to begin with...it is very confusing. I guess what I am trying to say is the things they changed were changed already, you just find out how the second time through. Remember the rock through Hagrid's window smacks Harry in the head and he has no idea where it came from only that they realize they have to go. On the re-read Hermione throws the rock at him...see? I may be wrong but this is how I took it to be. |
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Jul 29 2010, 04:46 PM
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#5
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,543 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(hpfreak1971 @ Jul 29 2010, 07:32 PM)  Dumbledore knows all of this because he is the one that sent them back to begin with...it is very confusing. I agree with most of what you said, but not this. When Dumbledore is in the hut with Hagrid I don't think he knows about the time travel. He may just be making sure that things are done properly, but he might also suspect that the trio are going to try to save Buckbeak so he is delaying things just in case (Lupin guessed that the trio might try something (which is why he was watching the map) and I think Dumbledore would again). Whether or not he suspected I think he would instantly realise what did happen, which is why he directed Fudge and Macnair to the skies and away from the forest.
This post has been edited by roonwit: Jul 29 2010, 04:48 PM --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jul 30 2010, 04:16 AM
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#6
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 3 Joined: 12:48am July 29, 2010 |
I dont think even JKR has understood it
 . 1. While in hospital Harry was saved by himself. So at this point Harry's past and so called future were already done with it. 2. When Dumbledore sent them back, they did not alter the history, that means, even in the past, there were 2 Harry Potters at the same time at the lake, that in turn means, when they actually go into past, they do not do anything as everything was done. 3. Dumbledore might be purposefully delaying Buckbeak's executuion, because he had an idea that in future, he can send Harmonie to alter the execution sequence. He knew she uses Time Turner to go into past. Now following is the sequence of events: Harry, Harmonie and Sirius at the lake | | Harry on the other side of the lake saves them | | They are in the hospital Here the second even tells us, Harry has already done the Time Travel. So it does not make sense in the book that Dumbledore ask them to go back after everything was done already. |
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Jul 30 2010, 10:41 AM
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#7
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 11:16am March 17, 2007 |
Everything was done BECAUSE he sent them back.
Before we find out that Dumbledore sent them back, in the hospital wing, all the "changes" had already happened BECAUSE he sent them back. Buckbeak lives, Sirius is rescued all because Dumbledore sent them back. We don't know what would have happened if they didn't go back because the story ends when they go back. Dumbledore knows even though I can't put it in to words. He knows because he initiated it. If Dumbledore hadn't sent them back the story would have been very different. |
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Jul 31 2010, 08:26 AM
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#8
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Knight Bus Driver in Training Posts: 595 Joined: 6:05am September 3, 2007 Location: England |
Yes it didn't really make much sense to me either, But JK Rowling is a children author not a expert in the physics of time travel, so I can excuse her for potential faults in logic here.
This post has been edited by kreachers army: Jul 31 2010, 08:26 AM -------------------- "Greatness inspires envy, envy engenders spite, spite spawns lies. You must know this, Dumbledore."
- Lord Voldemort "You fail to recognize that it matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be!" - Albus dumbledore GOF |
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Jul 31 2010, 12:21 PM
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#9
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Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 521 Joined: 12:29am February 9, 2006 Location: Stoatshead Hill  |
In most stories involving time travel, when you go back in the past, you go back to change something that has already happened. Therefore, you are changing the time line.
This in not the case in PoA, in the world of Harry Potter there is no way to change something that has already happened. You can only go back and be a part of it. So when Harry got back to the hospital the first time, in relation to the time line, his future self has already saved Buckbeak, himself, and Sirius. Plus, since that time line included him going back to the past, he had to go back. In 1999, Michael Crichton wrote a book called Timeline that dealt with time travel in this exact manner. There was a fixed time line and nothing they did in the past changed it. They just noticed things later, that there time in the past caused. |
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Jul 31 2010, 06:47 PM
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#10
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 20 Joined: 5:57pm December 16, 2009 |
I believe this is similar to how Doc Brown explains time travel in "Back to the Future". There is an established timeline, but there are alternate timelines, as well.
In the accepted timeline (the one in the book), Harry nad Hermione go back in time to save Buckbeak, themselves, and Sirius. Had Dumbledore not sent them back, a new timeline would have been established in retrospect, leaving Buckbeak dead, and Sirius, Harry, and Hermione without souls. The scene in the Hospital wing where Dumbledore tells Harry and Hermione to go back in time would not have happened. In the film, as many know, Marty McFly goes back in time, does some stuff that cant be explained here, and changes the present. There is a definite similarity between the two. As to why Dumbledore distracted everyone at Hagrid's hut, I have no idea or explanation, other than that Dumbldedore is an all-knowing genius. |
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