Corner Booth Transcript: 10/25/06 Www Chat, Morals and Ethics in Harry Potter |
 Oct 25 2006, 08:55 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter  Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner   |
Today's Moderators: Aislinn, SoonerGryffindor, fawkes28, Expelliarmas, futureweasley
*** futureweasley has joined #lounge [19:00] <futureweasley> Hi PP [19:00] <futureweasley> good to see you! [19:00] *** Snuffles changed the topic to: Ethics and Morals in Harry Potter (Aislinn) [19:00] <ProngsPatronus> Hey there--am I here too early for the Wise Wizard chat? [19:00] <Aislinn> Its just starting now smile [19:00] <ProngsPatronus> whew! [19:00] *** AmandaB has joined #lounge [19:00] <Aislinn> but we're going to give people about 15 min. to get here and settle in [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> thought I had walked into Bizarro Leaky Lounge [19:01] <Aislinn> I'm glad you're here, Prongs! [19:01] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [19:01] <Aislinn> I was hoping you would join in this particular topic smile [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:01] <futureweasley> hi Harryfreak [19:01] <Aislinn> lol [19:01] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [19:01] <harryfreak359> Hello everyone! [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> I wouldn't have missed it for the world [19:01] <harryfreak359> Can't wait for this topic! [19:01] <Aislinn> hi folks! [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> hello all [19:01] <harryfreak359> Woot! [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> hahaha [19:01] <harryfreak359> lol [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> thank you for following rule #3 [19:02] <harryfreak359> Well I like rule three [19:02] * futureweasley thinks Sooner's rules stink [19:02] <futureweasley> LOL [19:02] <harryfreak359> lol [19:02] <ProngsPatronus> Nice is my middle name [19:02] *** dancerintheroom has joined #lounge [19:02] <Aislinn> I have just adjusted Sooner's rules, as she had a typo in Rule #1 [19:02] <futureweasley> hi dancerintheroom [19:02] * harryfreak359 loves Sooner's rules [19:02] <SoonerGryffindor> ooooh [19:02] * SoonerGryffindor runs off to go look [19:02] <Aislinn> somehow a NOT was slipped in there, that did not belong [19:02] <harryfreak359> lol [19:03] *** Belenzie has joined #lounge [19:03] <AmandaB> what rules are these? [19:03] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:03] <Belenzie> long time no see all [19:03] <futureweasley> since Aislinn's the "manager", there edits STAY [19:03] <futureweasley> hi Belezie...where have you been [19:03] <futureweasley> ? [19:03] <Aislinn> exactly Future! [19:03] <fawkes28> hello all smile [19:03] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Aislinn [19:03] <Aislinn> tongue [19:03] <Belenzie> errrrrr not here?? [19:03] <Belenzie> lol [19:04] <dancerintheroom> Hi! This is my first time in at the corner booth so I hope I don't break any sacred rules! [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> lol dancer [19:04] <futureweasley> lol dancer...you will be just fine [19:04] <Aislinn> welcome dancer! [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> just pay close attention to the announcements and you will be fine [19:04] <dancerintheroom> thanks [19:04] <futureweasley> we'll make sure you "toe the line" [19:04] <dancerintheroom> Ok [19:04] <ProngsPatronus> it is just like the Leaky--only a lot faster [19:04] <fawkes28> :excited: [19:04] <fawkes28> w00t2 [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> !halfop fawkes28 [19:05] <Belenzie> Doris joining us tonight?? [19:05] <harryfreak359> w00t2 [19:05] <ProngsPatronus> I think Narya will be along soon [19:05] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> oh good [19:05] <Aislinn> very good [19:05] <harryfreak359> cool....this is going to be one interesting topic [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> I so love arguing with her laugh [19:05] <harryfreak359> lol [19:05] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome cp [19:05] <futureweasley> Hi Cloudpic [19:05] <harryfreak359> hi cloucpic! [19:06] *** adamgryff has joined #lounge [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> how do you make the smilies go? [19:06] <harryfreak359> cloudpic* [19:06] <futureweasley> I hate arguing with Narya... [19:06] <harryfreak359> you have to put a space before you begin the code [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> I have it checked on options, but it doesn't seem to be doing it [19:06] <futureweasley> I NEVER win...no matter how good my argument is! [19:06] <harryfreak359> lol [19:06] <cloudpic> Hi everybody! hmm.... harryfreak..sometimes I might cluck;D [19:06] <harryfreak359> lol [19:06] <adamgryff> hi everyone! [19:06] <harryfreak359> hi adam! [19:06] <futureweasley> adam...welcome [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> : lol : [19:06] <Belenzie> well I usually have Doris on my side so I always win [19:06] <cloudpic> Hi Adam [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> adam! [19:06] <Belenzie> lol jk [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> hey! [19:06] <futureweasley> LOVE your "unthinkable ships" montage [19:06] <futureweasley> LOL [19:07] <harryfreak359> hahahah me too!!!! [19:07] <cloudpic> Loved the video Adam [19:07] <adamgryff> all due to the corner booth chats [19:07] <harryfreak359> lol [19:07] <cloudpic> I liked the cannons best... [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> I really liked that one, too--but I loved the Prayer one, sentimental person that I am [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome adam [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> loved the new video [19:07] <Belenzie> is there only one room in this months reading groups?? [19:07] <adamgryff> to bad I don't have the other three movies yet [19:07] * futureweasley proudly takes credit for the Trelawney/LV ship [19:08] <harryfreak359> oh dear [19:08] <cloudpic> There are 5 Rooms this time Belenzie [19:08] <fawkes28> so how is everyone doing? [19:08] <harryfreak359> good! [19:08] <cloudpic> Sun shined all day... Whoop! [19:08] <fawkes28> harryfreak, have you learn what the correct word is yet? [19:08] <futureweasley> I'm great, thanks for asking! Love Basement Room 10!!! [19:08] <Belenzie> so did anyone end up making " a sea of ferrets" avatar??? [19:08] <Belenzie> well why do i only evr see Chamber 37?? [19:08] <adamgryff> still in bed with this cold, but I'm here. [19:08] <harryfreak359> yeah, of course fawkes [19:08] *** melj1213 has joined #lounge [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> because that is the room you were sorted into Bel [19:08] <harryfreak359> it is woot, if I am not mistakem [19:09] <dancerintheroom> I think you only see the reading group your in [19:09] <fawkes28> i have taken a 24 hour ban of that word [19:09] <cloudpic> Because you can only see the Room into which you are sorted [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, she has [19:09] * futureweasley hugs adamgryff, and offers a bowl of homemade chili [19:09] <cloudpic> True, dancerintheroom [19:09] <fawkes28> and you should too, hf, it's obviously getting to you [19:09] <adamgryff> thanks future [19:09] <harryfreak359> laugh [19:10] <harryfreak359> yeah, it is making crazy I am sure [19:10] <Belenzie> oh okay thanks [19:10] * ProngsPatronus can hardly wait for the 15 minutes to be up! [19:10] <cloudpic> But everyone should see into the Welcome Room (Great Hall) Belenzie [19:10] *** cbm has joined #lounge [19:10] <futureweasley> hi cbm [19:10] <cbm> hi! [19:10] <cloudpic> Hi there cbm! [19:10] <Belenzie> k [19:10] * fawkes28 shouts woo hoo from the rooftops!!! [19:10] <futureweasley> w00t2 [19:10] <harryfreak359> hi cbm [19:10] <adamgryff> hi cbm [19:10] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome cbm [19:10] *** JamesCharlesPotter has joined #lounge [19:10] <cbm> thanks [19:11] <futureweasley> you are regressing, fawkes [19:11] <dancerintheroom> *waves* [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome james [19:11] <melj1213> hey [19:11] <futureweasley> hi JameCharlesPotter [19:11] <adamgryff> hi james [19:11] <Aislinn> hello everyone smile [19:11] <fawkes28> hehe [19:11] <harryfreak359> hi! [19:11] <cloudpic> Poor futureweasley...such a quiet passive person... [19:11] *** Islwyn13 has joined #lounge [19:11] <ProngsPatronus> hello, all [19:11] <JamesCharlesPotter> Uh Hi! [19:11] <melj1213> hi [19:11] <futureweasley> hi Islwyn!! [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome Isl [19:11] <Aislinn> hi islwyn [19:11] <harryfreak359> heya Islwyn! [19:11] <fawkes28> hi islwyn! [19:11] <Islwyn13> Heya, all! [19:11] <cloudpic> Howdy, all! [19:11] <Islwyn13> oo, color change needeed... [19:11] <Islwyn13> better [19:11] * futureweasley hugs Islwyn (the queen supreme RG leader) [19:11] <cloudpic> purty [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> not the red..... not the red [19:11] <harryfreak359> smile [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> hahahah [19:11] <harryfreak359> lol [19:11] * Islwyn13 blushes [19:11] * ProngsPatronus sighs at all the purty colours [19:12] <futureweasley> (except for Expie...she rocks) [19:12] *** JamesCharlesPotter has quit [Bye] [19:12] <fawkes28> i think you should pick red, islwyn smile [19:12] <Islwyn13> uh, oh, competition! I'll have to poke her with my pointy wand ;) [19:12] <Islwyn13> lol [19:12] <harryfreak359> I haven't ever had expie as a reading group leader yet [19:12] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:12] <Islwyn13> nope, I think Sooner can take me smile [19:12] <fawkes28> me either sad [19:12] <SoonerGryffindor> she'll just whack you with the 2x4 if you do Isl [19:12] <ProngsPatronus> ooo-- Mr. Pointy! [19:12] <harryfreak359> sad [19:12] <Islwyn13> I'll stick with brown smile [19:12] <harryfreak359> lol [19:12] <cloudpic> chocolate colored! [19:13] <Islwyn13> YES! and COFFEE! [19:13] <harryfreak359> lol [19:13] *** KimmyBlair has joined #lounge [19:13] <Islwyn13> better together! [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> Expie is a great leader and writes wonderful chapter summaries [19:13] <cloudpic> All things good for the spirit [19:13] <Aislinn> hi kimmy [19:13] <ProngsPatronus> food of the thousand little gods [19:13] <harryfreak359> chocolate is good [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> hey Kimmy! [19:13] <Islwyn13> I've no doubt! [19:13] <KimmyBlair> hello! [19:13] <Islwyn13> Heya, Kimmy! [19:13] <fawkes28> hi kimmy [19:13] <cloudpic> Hi, Kimmy [19:13] <harryfreak359> hi kimmy [19:13] <Islwyn13> my sister RG leader! [19:13] <futureweasley> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. [19:13] <futureweasley> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod [19:13] <futureweasley> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [19:14] <futureweasley> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [19:14] <futureweasley> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> In an interview last year, JKR said the following: And unlike Lewis, whose books are drenched in theology, Rowling refuses to view herself as a moral educator to the millions of children who read her books. "I don't think that it's at all healthy for the work for me to think in those terms. So I don't," she says. "I never think in terms of What am I going to teach them? Or, What would it be good for them to find out here?" [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> "Although," she adds, "undeniably, morals are drawn." But she doesn't make it easy. In Goblet, the good-hearted Cedric Diggory dies for no reason. In Phoenix, we learn that Harry's dad, whom he idealized, had been an arrogant bully. [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> People aren't good and bad by nature; they change and transform and struggle. As Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Granted, we know Harry will not succumb to anger and evil. But we never stop feeling that he could. [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Ethics are defined as a set of principles of right conduct, or a system of moral values. Morality is defined as the standards of right or good conduct. Some people feel that the Harry Potter series is a highly moral tale, while others feel that there are multiple episodes of questionable ethics and morals displayed. Let's discuss the issue of morality and ethics in Harry Potter. [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Do you consider the HP series a moral tale? Why or why not? [19:15] <KimmyBlair> Yes... [19:15] <futureweasley> I think that morals definitely play a huge part in HP [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> yes, I do [19:15] <Islwyn13> I agree [19:15] <futureweasley> p.s. Hi Kimmy [19:15] *** KimmyBlair has quit [Bye] [19:15] <adamgryff> yes, morals play a large part in this book [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> I think its definitely a big part of it [19:15] *** KimmyBlair has joined #lounge [19:15] <dancerintheroom> Yes [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> because morality involves the choices we make when no one is looking [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> psst... Kimmy.... dont hit the backspac e key laugh [19:15] <Islwyn13> I think a lot of it is Jo coming through in her writing [19:15] <cloudpic> It seems that the characters are constantly asked to make decisions about morality or ethics... [19:16] <Islwyn13> who she is, what's important to her [19:16] <futureweasley> I mean, look at where the characters would be if they had made different choices [19:16] <Aislinn> I think the books are particularly effective at exploring complex moral issues, precisely because JKR is not preachy about it [19:16] *** Ginnyous has joined #lounge [19:16] <fawkes28> yes morality seems to be one of the center's of the book [19:16] *** Tanaqui has joined #lounge [19:16] <Islwyn13> and even when the characters make mistakes, they learn from them [19:16] <ProngsPatronus> I agree [19:16] <cloudpic> Exactly... moral..choices [19:16] <Aislinn> I do too, Isl [19:16] <Ginnyous> Hi guys [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome gunny and tanaqui [19:16] <futureweasley> hi ginnous [19:16] <Tanaqui> hello [19:16] <futureweasley> *ginnyous [19:16] <adamgryff> agree islwyn [19:16] <ProngsPatronus> in the Potterverse, free will really is free [19:16] <KimmyBlair> I didn't sooner! the chat was all messed up... i couldn't see the memebers of the chat in the right hand window [19:16] <cloudpic> Hi, Tanaqui [19:16] <dancerintheroom> For me, anyway, its one of the things that makes the series most interesting [19:16] <Belenzie> it depends on who your talking to, remember these books are foungd in over a hundred countries so morals change from place to place [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:16] <dancerintheroom> The moral struggles of even the villans [19:16] <Ginnyous> what are we discussing today [19:17] <Islwyn13> morality in the HP series [19:17] <Aislinn> we are discussing morals and ethics [19:17] <cloudpic> Some moral standards are universal, Belenzie [19:17] <Islwyn13> oh, that's a discussoin I have with my husband all the time [19:17] <Islwyn13> universal morals [19:17] <Islwyn13> he doesn't think so, but I do [19:17] *** moody has joined #lounge [19:17] <futureweasley> and, aren't "morals" in the eye of the beholder? [19:17] <Aislinn> I tend to think there are certain universal "truths" [19:17] <Islwyn13> mostly [19:17] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome moody [19:17] <cloudpic> I believe I agree with you Islwyn... even throughout time some things hold true [19:17] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:17] <Ginnyous> Hi moody [19:18] <Aislinn> that could be viewed as morals [19:18] <Islwyn13> but there are some universal ones [19:18] * ProngsPatronus considers turning Draco into a ferret to be a moral imperative [19:18] *** PerfectlyMMAD has joined #lounge [19:18] <fawkes28> you are right, islwyn [19:18] <harryfreak359> I agree Islwyn [19:18] <moody> heya, whats the story??? [19:18] <futureweasley> hi perfectlyMMAD [19:18] <Islwyn13> even if it's only for reasons of a social contract [19:18] <Aislinn> lol prongs [19:18] <Belenzie> yeah aren't morals just another way to say norms of society?> [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome mmad [19:18] <cloudpic> LOL Prongs! [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> lol PP [19:18] <PerfectlyMMAD> hello! [19:18] <adamgryff> lol pp [19:18] <Aislinn> morals are actually more of a personal code [19:18] <cloudpic> No, I don't think moral values are that simple... [19:18] <futureweasley> we are talking about whether or not HP is a moral tale [19:18] <Islwyn13> sometimes they are norms of a society [19:18] <Belenzie> exactly Aislinn [19:18] <Islwyn13> the idea of "I won't steal from you if you won't steal from me" [19:18] <cbm> agreed aislinn [19:18] <cloudpic> There's an overlapping [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> well, there are morals that an individual has and there are also morals that society as a whole has [19:19] <Islwyn13> but I think,mostly, they are a sense of what is right and wrong [19:19] <futureweasley> definitely cloudpic [19:19] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> at their most basic, they are personal [19:19] <Ginnyous> I agree with Aislinn [19:19] <moody> i like the morals in hp, love is the most powerful sorce of magic an all that.. [19:19] <Islwyn13> I won't steal from you because I don't think it's right [19:19] <Aislinn> I kind of see ethics as a societal system of morality [19:19] <Belenzie> or the difference between murdering and killing? [19:19] <Islwyn13> not just because society frowns on it [19:19] <fawkes28> and morals also are carried down from generation to generation [19:19] <cloudpic> At least the decisions made about moral values are very personal [19:19] <futureweasley> sometimes, Belenzie [19:19] <fawkes28> think about the malfoys [19:19] <Islwyn13> yeah, Aislinn, that makes sense [19:19] <cloudpic> Good point Belenzie... [19:19] <Islwyn13> ethics is more a code of conduct, morality is more of what seems right to you [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> and sometimes over time, morals do shift frm time to time [19:19] <Islwyn13> I can see that [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> to me, ethics and morality are what you do when nobody is looking [19:19] <futureweasley> there's definitely a difference between "murder" and "self-defense" [19:19] <harryfreak359> yes, but not all of the times fawkes [19:19] *** Ginnyous has quit [Bye] [19:20] <Islwyn13> I agree, FW [19:20] <fawkes28> right, hf, because of our choices [19:20] <harryfreak359> agreed Future [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> that is a truer sense of what people will and won't do than anything else [19:20] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:20] *** Ginnyous has joined #lounge [19:20] <Belenzie> no future i mean murdering and killing [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> If you do believe that the HP series is a moral tale, what is the central theme of this morality? [19:20] <Islwyn13> oo, a central one... [19:20] <futureweasley> obviously: good v. evil [19:20] <Islwyn13> "it is our choices..." [19:20] <Islwyn13> that's probably the main one [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> choices [19:20] <Belenzie> Faith [19:20] <adamgryff> our choices [19:20] <Ginnyous> I learned my morals from my parents [19:20] <dancerintheroom> I don't think there is any one central [19:20] <moody> would harry actually have to kill someone? i dont think he should have to kill someone, i mean how morally correct is that?? [19:20] <Aislinn> I think Dumbledore's choice speech defines it well [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> Love is stronger than Hate and Despair [19:20] <futureweasley> and the choices you make to get there [19:21] <Islwyn13> it's not what you've experienced, it's not how you were raised, necessarily... [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> to kill or not to kill? [19:21] <PerfectlyMMAD> I agree with Furture [19:21] <Belenzie> * keeping faith in others and your own judgement [19:21] <cloudpic> Such decisions are complex...and some things change over time... now we might consider it against a moral value to polute the oceans... that might not have been ansomething people wereconscious of decades ago [19:21] <KimmyBlair> I think choices, and "good vs evil,? are main points of the serioes [19:21] <Islwyn13> it's what you choose to do with your life, what standard you choose to live by [19:21] <dancerintheroom> I think love, and choices, and what right vs whats easy [19:21] <Islwyn13> personal responsibility [19:21] <futureweasley> perception is nearly as influencial as reality [19:21] <fawkes28> yes, our choices...that one line has had a powerful effect on the series [19:21] *** Ginnyous left #lounge [] [19:21] <PerfectlyMMAD> It's what is in your heart that matters [19:21] <Aislinn> right islwyn [19:21] <Aislinn> I'd agree with that [19:21] <cloudpic> First, do no harm... fairly universal, but hard to know what "harm" is [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> yes--that quote about being dragged in, as opposed to walking in with one's head held high [19:21] <dancerintheroom> That intention does make a difference [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> that was telling [19:22] <Islwyn13> it's a big one for me, taking responsibility, and doing what is right, even if it's not easy [19:22] *** JamesCharlesPotter has joined #lounge [19:22] <cloudpic> Depends upon how poorly made someone's conscience is, no? [19:22] <moody> heya james [19:22] <melj1213> yeah DD's speech was v.profound [19:22] <Belenzie> telling the truth- even if it hurts- Luna is the spokesperson for that! [19:22] <Belenzie> lol [19:22] <Islwyn13> Heya, JCP (oh, no, that abbriev. doesn't work!) [19:22] <Islwyn13> Heya, James! [19:22] <JamesCharlesPotter> yeah it works [19:22] <Islwyn13> yes, I lOVE Luna and her brutal honesty! [19:22] <moody> yep [19:22] <futureweasley> there is a constant pull between "good" and "evil" and it's what they characters do in the "grey" that defines who they are [19:22] <cloudpic> GIGO applies to conscience, in that way Belenzie is right about changing society affecting the input [19:22] <JamesCharlesPotter> or you can call me chuck [19:22] <moody> chuck! [19:23] <Islwyn13> chuck it is! [19:23] <cloudpic> Good point future [19:23] <PerfectlyMMAD> Don't back down from your opinion, even if you know your wrong. Just change your ponit of veiw [19:23] <harryfreak359> yeah good point [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> it is the friction on that tensile membrane between good and evil that does it for me [19:23] <cloudpic> I'll try to remember Chuck! [19:23] <futureweasley> MMAD, I really like that [19:23] <dancerintheroom> good point [19:23] <Islwyn13> oh, I don't like that one, MMAD [19:23] <Aislinn> I think that Jo has said that she is exploring that MJ - the choices people make in difficult times with the grey areas [19:23] <melj1213> exactly, everyone has good and evil in them, but it is up to them which path 2 follow [19:23] <fawkes28> our character is what we do when know one is looking...which we have gotten to see in HP [19:23] <PerfectlyMMAD> Thanks [19:23] <Islwyn13> if you're wrong, you must admit it, and learn from it [19:23] <futureweasley> perception is key when analyzing what's what [19:23] <Islwyn13> it's ok to be wrong [19:23] <Belenzie> i think you mean change the way you at look at things [19:23] <KimmyBlair> i agree melj [19:23] <moody> anyone here from ireland, its half past mightnight here, that dedication for ya! [19:23] <Islwyn13> Harry is quite a bit, but not as often now [19:24] <melj1213> yup, from england...us die hard fans unite!!!! [19:24] <cloudpic> Yes it is, moody [19:24] <moody> haha, united like the hat says! [19:24] <cloudpic> Bravo to those across the Atlantic [19:24] <Islwyn13> I think there are too many themes of morality to necessarily hit on the CENTRAL theme [19:24] <melj1213> exactly [19:24] <dancerintheroom> haha, only 4:30 in california [19:24] <Islwyn13> they are all important [19:24] <dancerintheroom> pm, I mena [19:24] <Aislinn> that's a good way of looking at it fawkes [19:24] <dancerintheroom> **mean [19:24] <Belenzie> The one that I always try to remeber when reading these books is that its from Harry's point of view, and like any person that view can be scewed and biased [19:25] <ProngsPatronus> there is a difference between the generations, too [19:25] <moody> definitly bravo to us insomniacs! [19:25] *** isa has joined #lounge [19:25] <Islwyn13> true, Belenzie [19:25] <SoonerGryffindor> What other values do you see communicated in the Harry Potter series? [19:25] <PerfectlyMMAD> I agree Prongs! [19:25] <moody> bravery [19:25] <cloudpic> They seem to value loyalty [19:25] <Islwyn13> loyalty [19:25] <melj1213> i see the value of friendship and loyalty [19:25] <futureweasley> Let's try to stay on topic, guys. Thanks [19:25] <Islwyn13> love [19:25] <adamgryff> loyalty [19:25] <KimmyBlair> I on't know if this is necessarily a value.. but the importance of family [19:25] <PerfectlyMMAD> Defiinalty love, [19:25] <fawkes28> i believe that loyality is very important [19:25] *** divaleder has joined #lounge [19:25] <cbm> love [19:25] <Aislinn> Love, loyalty, friendship [19:25] <futureweasley> Honor, bravery [19:25] <Islwyn13> oh, Kimmy, I think that is DEFINITELY a value [19:25] <fawkes28> many people have been very loyal in the series [19:25] <KimmyBlair> i agree about friendship and loyalty [19:25] <isa> friendship [19:25] <adamgryff> hi divaleder [19:25] <Islwyn13> one Percy needs to look at more closely smile [19:25] <ProngsPatronus> well, that Hermuione quote, about books and cleverness--that one is important [19:25] <KimmyBlair> thanks Islwyn! [19:25] <KimmyBlair> yes! [19:26] <dancerintheroom> Yeah, the quote from hermione about friendship and bravery being more important than book smarts was telling [19:26] <Islwyn13> self-sacrifice is big, too [19:26] <Aislinn> that is a good one Prongs [19:26] <dancerintheroom> Oh sorry, prongs already said that [19:26] <KimmyBlair> I thik without friendship harry ould be a differnet person [19:26] <futureweasley> yes, dancer...definitely [19:26] <cloudpic> Hes, Islwyn [19:26] <Belenzie> kinship i think you mean kimmy [19:26] <moody> love is defo the main thing [19:26] <fawkes28> good one, PP [19:26] <cloudpic> *Yes [19:26] *** SillyPutty has joined #lounge [19:26] <KimmyBlair> also if he had a family he would be a differnet person [19:26] *** JamesCharlesPotter has quit [Bye] [19:26] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:26] <cbm> Harry's whole life owes itself to love and familiy [19:26] <futureweasley> the bonds of love and friendship [19:26] <fawkes28> hello sillyputty [19:26] <moody> it can overcome all obstikles [19:26] <Islwyn13> possibly, he would have been different [19:26] <isa> hi [19:26] <futureweasley> hi SillyPutty [19:26] <harryfreak359> hi sillyputty [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> sacrifice [19:26] <Islwyn13> somewhat [19:26] <cbm> His mother saved him [19:26] <SillyPutty> hey just popping real quick [19:26] <futureweasley> sacrifice is HUGE, PP...good one [19:26] <Islwyn13> but look at how different LV and harry turned out, even through their similar childhoods [19:26] <melj1213> well also DD's speach at the end of GoF when he extends his safety invite to everyone [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> a big theme is the sanctity of sacrifice [19:26] <moody> i know its confusing [19:27] <KimmyBlair> ohh good point about sacrifice [19:27] <Islwyn13> some of it is just a core value system [19:27] <Islwyn13> Harry has one, LV doesn't [19:27] <KimmyBlair> exactly [19:27] <divaleder> hi everyone I'm trying to catch onto all this. It's moving so fast. [19:27] <futureweasley> self-sacrifice and everyday sacrifices that must be made [19:27] <cloudpic> So, Unity too seems a value [19:27] <Belenzie> i don't like" sacrifice" as a value or moral its an act that occurs because of a moral [19:27] <dancerintheroom> Unity, overcoming differences [19:27] <Aislinn> sacrifice in the name of love, yes [19:27] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [19:27] <PerfectlyMMAD> I am not sure, but Mother and Child, the relationship bettween them, like with lily and Harry [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> and a BIG, HUGE one--mercy [19:27] <cbm> Was that one year that Harry had the difference [19:27] <Islwyn13> yes, Unity, definitlely [19:27] <HPotterExpert2> hello all! [19:27] <futureweasley> Hi HPE2 [19:27] <Islwyn13> we're still waiting for that one to play out, with teh Hogwarts houses [19:27] <Aislinn> mercy is huge, prongs [19:27] <Islwyn13> oh, yes, Mercy! [19:27] <moody> its hard to get used to the moving so fast thingy but ya do!! [19:27] <Islwyn13> excellent! [19:27] <dancerintheroom> Discrimination [19:27] <HPotterExpert2> hi FW! [19:27] <HPotterExpert2> biggrin [19:27] <Aislinn> we have seen several instances of that [19:27] <dancerintheroom> Humans vs non human magical creatures [19:27] <futureweasley> is Discrimination a value? [19:27] <melj1213> yeah like in the Sorting hats song islwyn [19:28] <harryfreak359> yes, mercy is pretty bug [19:28] <dancerintheroom> I guess...anti discrimination then [19:28] <moody> racisim [19:28] <AmandaB> Forgiveness is also an important theme. [19:28] <harryfreak359> big* [19:28] <Islwyn13> even Arthur has a little bit of discrimination going [19:28] <Belenzie> tolerance is a value [19:28] <dancerintheroom> Whatever the word for that is [19:28] <Islwyn13> yes, mel, the hat is never wrong! [19:28] <cbm> acceptance vs discrimination [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> depends on what you mean by that, FW [19:28] <dancerintheroom> Yes, thank you Belenzie [19:28] <adamgryff> agree amanda [19:28] <Belenzie> the hat is never wrong because you can never be weong about yourselg [19:28] <melj1213> well NHN says it feels duty bound to help in times of need [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> Harry is a very discrimminating fellow [19:28] <cloudpic> That's it Belenzie... with Dumbledore leading by example [19:28] <futureweasley> cbm, that's a very important comparison [19:28] <Islwyn13> oh, I think you can be wrong about yourself [19:28] <divaleder> forgiveness is a great thing in the stories. [19:28] <Belenzie> *wrong [19:28] <cloudpic> and Hagrid shows great tolerence as well [19:28] <moody> acceptance is important,of everyone and everthing [19:28] <Aislinn> respect for creatures of all kinds, or wizards regardless of blood status would be the value, rather than discrimination [19:29] *** PerfectlyMMAD left #lounge [] [19:29] <harryfreak359> yes, Aislinn [19:29] <melj1213> acceptance and forgiveness are key for me [19:29] <Islwyn13> you can blind yourself to what you truly are [19:29] <Aislinn> discrimination is the lack of that value [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> goos, one, Aislinn [19:29] <futureweasley> conversely, moody, the inability to accept is just as important [19:29] <moody> there's just so many morals!!! [19:29] <divaleder> harry isn't always that accepting [19:29] <KimmyBlair> good point aislinn [19:29] <SillyPutty> you don't accepet things that are differnt you turn into a durlsey [19:29] <Belenzie> i mean when considering what the hat"looks for" iside your head [19:29] <Islwyn13> that's what I like about Harry, though... [19:29] *** isa has quit [Bye] [19:29] <moody> yep futureweasley [19:29] * ProngsPatronus wonders what happened to her fingers... [19:29] <Islwyn13> he's not perfect [19:29] <harryfreak359> it makes him more human that way I think, Islywn [19:29] <Islwyn13> testing [19:29] <Islwyn13> there it goes, sorry [19:30] <Islwyn13> he can make mistakes, and we can learn WITH him, not just through him [19:30] <fawkes28> we see you, isl [19:30] <divaleder> look at the harry and snape thing. neither is accepting [19:30] *** divaleder has quit [Bye] [19:30] <futureweasley> typos are the only downfall of the booth, PP...no worries, it happens to all of us [19:30] *** GadgetDon has joined #lounge [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> there is something else that she brings out about evil, though [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> Let's talk about some of the specific characters. Do you consider Harry to be a moral or ethical person? Why or why not? [19:30] <Islwyn13> YES! [19:30] <harryfreak359> in some ways [19:30] <cbm> Yes! [19:30] <futureweasley> in some ways [19:30] <melj1213> belenzie is right even Hogwarts discriminates with the houses [19:30] <Islwyn13> well, he's growing up, remember [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> mostly [19:30] <SillyPutty> depends on the situation.... [19:30] <futureweasley> half-moral [19:30] <dancerintheroom> In many ways [19:30] <fawkes28> yes, overall he is but he is by no means perfect [19:30] <GadgetDon> Partially yes, though he's missing some parts. [19:30] <Islwyn13> he has to learn what is right and what isn't [19:30] <fawkes28> lol future [19:30] <KimmyBlair> He tries to be moral and ethical... but he is human so he has imperfections [19:30] <dancerintheroom> He is not perfect...but thats what makes him human [19:30] <Islwyn13> ultimately, his motives are good [19:30] <Aislinn> I think, as Islwyn said, he is not a perfect person, but then who is? [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> yes, in all the important things, I think he is more moral than not [19:30] <cloudpic> In almost every circumstance, Harry tries to do what is "right." [19:30] <SillyPutty> he has morals and ethics and he knows how to use them [19:30] <Islwyn13> even if his actions are sometimes mistakes [19:30] <adamgryff> mostly, he has some issues, but learns from his mistakes [19:30] <moody> i personally think the greatest moral in the book is to accept everyone, but its for a personally reason [19:30] <harryfreak359> half-moral? that's not a choice [19:31] <fawkes28> he does make some poor decisions like when he went off to hogsmeade [19:31] <Aislinn> exactly right, islwyn [19:31] <melj1213> nobody's perfect and everyone makes mistakes [19:31] <fawkes28> lol, hf [19:31] <futureweasley> lol harryfreak [19:31] <harryfreak359> biggrin [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> he is just as human as anyone [19:31] <Aislinn> his motivations and intentions are pure ones in almost every instance [19:31] <SillyPutty> but he has them - so yes.... [19:31] <KimmyBlair> he's a typical teenager [19:31] <Belenzie> i liked a brooding harry he made more sense then [19:31] <Belenzie> lol [19:31] <harryfreak359> yeah, pretty much Aislinn [19:31] <Islwyn13> yes, and in that sense, Harry is pure [19:31] <cbm> Poor decisions are not the same as bad morals [19:31] <Aislinn> so from that perspective, I'd say he's a highly moral person [19:31] <moody> yea, but he took a while to accept luna [19:31] <fawkes28> harry also follows his heart which sometimes gets him to make less than moral choices [19:31] <GadgetDon> Harry is weak on respecting other people's privacy [19:31] <Islwyn13> his execution is just sometimes poor smile [19:31] <futureweasley> well, it's true. In the name of doing what's "right", he makes some bad decisions ethically speaking [19:31] <SillyPutty> even if he doesn't always follow the rules - which are different then morals - he has them in place to guide him in his decisions [19:31] <cloudpic> Agreed, cbm [19:31] <Islwyn13> well, Harry respects privacy unless he thinks someone is up to something [19:31] *** divaleder has joined #lounge [19:32] <SillyPutty> but like with most teenagers - he thinks he knows better then adults who gave him those morals/ethics [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> but at least he did accept her--which is more than can be said for her housemates [19:32] <Islwyn13> then he wants to know what it is ;) [19:32] <Islwyn13> and sometimes, SillyPutty, he's right smile [19:32] <Aislinn> he is much more accepting of her, even early on, than most of the students at Hogwarts [19:32] <Islwyn13> look at the "morals" Snape pushes [19:32] <SillyPutty> yep, Islwynm yep [19:32] <fawkes28> harry still does not take the high moral road when dealing with draco [19:32] <Islwyn13> hid your emotions, deny them [19:32] <futureweasley> but sometimes, Islwyn, the same "ends" could have been achieved by following the rules [19:32] <moody> he is quick to make opinions of people eg snape. he immeditly makes up his mind about people, whether there good or bad [19:32] <SillyPutty> thats cause draco is his achilles heel [19:32] <melj1213> well harry knows what it feels like to be ignored, and so knows how she may feel [19:32] <Belenzie> well neither does Draco smile [19:32] <Islwyn13> while good in some situations, it's Harrys ability to feel that makes him so special [19:32] <Aislinn> what do you feel he should do, regarding Draco, fawkes? [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> no, one doesn't with petty evil [19:33] <Islwyn13> well, that falls into his being immature, FW, I think [19:33] <Islwyn13> learning how to do what is right [19:33] <Islwyn13> more so than doing what is right [19:33] <SillyPutty> but Harry doesn't do things out of Hate like draco does... and I think thats what bothers him about draco... [19:33] <melj1213> harry can empathise with luna [19:33] <harryfreak359> I agree Islwyn [19:33] <Islwyn13> he knows what is right, just not how to do achieve it, always [19:33] <futureweasley> immature and misguided [19:33] <divaleder> draco isn't really as bad as he tries to be. [19:33] <Aislinn> specific example FW? [19:33] <Islwyn13> I agree with that [19:33] <SillyPutty> draco falls outside of what Harry deems as a moral person [19:33] <futureweasley> because, let's face it, he's gotten some bad ethics advice,too [19:33] <fawkes28> i think if he is truely a moral character he needs to learn to control his own emotions when it comes to certain people he dislikes [19:33] <Belenzie> draco called lucius dad- that means draco does have a heart [19:33] <cloudpic> I hope you're right divaleder [19:33] <Belenzie> lol [19:34] <melj1213> well with Lucius for a father Draco has no examples of good morals [19:34] <Aislinn> emotions are one thing and actions are another fawkes [19:34] <Islwyn13> I think you can be moral and overly emotinoal [19:34] <Islwyn13> though the emotions can distract you if you let them rule you [19:34] <divaleder> draco is never going to be bad as LV needs his people to be [19:34] <ProngsPatronus> draco was instrumental in getting hagrid sent to azkaban, too [19:34] <dancerintheroom> Draco is not exactly an ethical person, but I certainly wouldn't put him in the same class as his father [19:34] <fawkes28> just because someone is mean to you doesn't mean you have to be mean back [19:34] <Islwyn13> but I don't think that has to do with morality [19:34] <Aislinn> it is possible to feel anger, frustration, and other negative emotions, and still be quite ethical [19:34] <Belenzie> he has respect for his superiors- or who he feels are his superiors [19:34] <adamgryff> draco did the moral thing in not killing dd [19:34] <Islwyn13> again, it's your choices that matter [19:34] <fawkes28> then you are stooping to their level [19:34] <Islwyn13> what you dop with what you're feelig [19:34] <cbm> Lucious probably think that muggle torture is moral [19:34] <futureweasley> Aislinn, any kind of "rule-breaking" automatically shoulcd be seen as "unethical" [19:34] <moody> well i think harry needs to be less quick to judge [19:34] <Islwyn13> Oh, I disagree, FW [19:34] <ProngsPatronus> I disagree [19:34] <Aislinn> oh, I so disagree with that [19:35] <Islwyn13> sometimes the rules are unethical [19:35] <SillyPutty> i disagree as well [19:35] <fawkes28> aislinn, do you think harry was ethical when he used the sectumsempra curse on draco?? [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree with that a lot [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:35] <harryfreak359> I disagree too [19:35] <divaleder> sometimes you have to break a rule for the good of all [19:35] <Islwyn13> look at what Umbridge tried to do [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> Umbridge had rules [19:35] <Belenzie> yeas beacuse you feel those things when other people do not follow your idea of ethical [19:35] <Aislinn> look at all the educational decrees put in place by Umbridge [19:35] <cloudpic> One of harry's talents is that quick thinking, though [19:35] <fawkes28> i consider that to be highly unethical [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> I lived in the South in the 1950's [19:35] <Aislinn> Were those ethical, just because they were rules? [19:35] <cloudpic> He'd lose a lot if he pondered [19:35] <Aislinn> was it unethical to break them? [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> so I will never agree with that [19:35] <cbm> He did not know what it did [19:35] <Islwyn13> good point, Prongs [19:35] <harryfreak359> Rules are not ethics, some rules are very unethical [19:35] <cloudpic> Excellent, Prongs [19:35] <Islwyn13> those were unethical laws that needed to be abolished [19:35] <Islwyn13> and rebelled against [19:35] <divaleder> sometimes you have to do for the whole instead of the one [19:35] <Aislinn> I think he was foolish fawkes, but not unethical, with the sectumsempra [19:36] <Islwyn13> agreed [19:36] <Islwyn13> he didn't know what it would do [19:36] <adamgryff> agreed [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> how could that be unethical? [19:36] <dancerintheroom> agreed [19:36] <divaleder> it makes a difference if you break a rule for the benefit of others [19:36] <Islwyn13> I don't think he ever would have used it, even against Draco, if he'd known [19:36] <futureweasley> Rules are rules! No matter how right you think you are and the "rules" are not, they are there to be respected [19:36] <melj1213> he didnt know the outcome and so he was just experimenting - is that unethical? [19:36] <moody> i think harry knew that spell he atacked draco with in the bathroom was dark magic [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry and his friends do not always follow the rules. Does this make them unethical? [19:36] <fawkes28> it was foolish and unethical [19:36] <Aislinn> oh, future! [19:36] <Islwyn13> nope, I disagree, FW smile sorry [19:36] <harryfreak359> no [19:36] <SillyPutty> and he was doing it to protect himself... draco was on the verge of using a unofrgivable on him [19:36] <dancerintheroom> No [19:36] <cbm> No, [19:36] <Islwyn13> again, no, not unethical to break rules [19:36] <Aislinn> totally and completely disagree [19:36] <Islwyn13> necessarily [19:36] <divaleder> those of you who think you cannot break any rules ever, have you ever told a little white lie [19:36] <adamgryff> no [19:36] <SillyPutty> that doesn't mean breaking them is unethical... [19:36] <harryfreak359> extremely disagree [19:36] <cloudpic> What cbm said earler, poor decisions don't make you unethical [19:37] <fawkes28> it depends on the situation [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> sorry, FW, as much as I respect you, I will still have to disagree with that [19:37] <dancerintheroom> In fact, I would say that is unethical to follow rules when you know that by doing so you would be harming some one [19:37] <Aislinn> so you think that everyone should have followed Umbridge's rules? [19:37] <SillyPutty> its bad but not unethical... [19:37] <melj1213> no rule can be universally applied - it must be put in the context of the situation [19:37] <divaleder> well, haven't you ever told a friend they look good in an outfit when it was really bad because you knew they liked it [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that it all depends on who is making the rules and why they have to be broken [19:37] <divaleder> that could be called unethical [19:37] <moody> bye guys, gonna go...fallin asleep [19:37] <Aislinn> ethical standards can sometimes be MORE moral than the rules one is faced with [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> there is no one rule that fits all [19:37] <Aislinn> bye moody [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> bye moody [19:37] <cbm> If you speed are you unethical, that is breaking a rule? [19:37] <dancerintheroom> bye [19:37] <cloudpic> bye moody...thanks for trying! [19:37] <Islwyn13> bye, Moody! [19:37] <harryfreak359> can you be ethical by following unethical rules? [19:37] <futureweasley> Rules are there for "protection". Someone older and wiser than you came up with them. Though you MAY have the opportunity down the line to change them or reform them, while you are a child, you should follow them [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> made by humans [19:37] <futureweasley> period [19:37] <moody> enjoy the rest of the chat! [19:37] <melj1213> all rules must be put in context [19:37] <divaleder> bye moody [19:38] <SillyPutty> bye moody - time for me to go as well.... [19:38] <Islwyn13> Umbridge was older, but not wiser smile [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> bye, moody! [19:38] <Aislinn> and choosing to abide by those rules, when you know them to be immoral, to me is being unethical [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> bye silly putty [19:38] <SillyPutty> slavery is allowed in the wizarding world - is that eithical? [19:38] <divaleder> bye sillyputty [19:38] *** SillyPutty has quit [Bye] [19:38] <moody> see ya cloudpic, nice chattin to ya smile [19:38] <fawkes28> do you consider harry a child, future? [19:38] <cbm> I would never call the ministry wiser [19:38] <Aislinn> just because someone is older doesn't always make them wiser FW [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> I disagree [19:38] <divaleder> i agree with aislinn [19:38] <harryfreak359> disagree with the term "older and wiser," just becasuse they are older, doesn't not mean that they are wiser [19:38] <cloudpic> A child who lives with unethical parents shouldn't be following their rules, e.g. selling drugs [19:38] <dancerintheroom> Was it unethical of Dobby to try and warn harry because the malfoys had not told him to? [19:38] <futureweasley> some parents come up with unjust rules, but you don't see kids being rewarded for going against their parent's wishes [19:38] <Islwyn13> Umbridge was trying to rule with an iron fist, to deny what was true, to harm anyone who wanted to shout the truth [19:38] <Aislinn> Umbridge is certainly not wiser [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> good question dancer [19:38] <Islwyn13> THAT was what was unethical [19:38] <divaleder> i'm really old and i'm not always that wise [19:38] <cloudpic> Excellent point dancer [19:38] <fawkes28> right, hf, like fudge [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> I have had persona experience with that one, and I know that doesn't agree with my moral stance [19:39] <melj1213> as DD says youth lack experience, but the older must not forget what it is to be young [19:39] *** moody left #lounge [] [19:39] <Aislinn> I think you have an ethical responsibility to work against immoral rules [19:39] <Islwyn13> depends on the rules the parents put forth [19:39] <KimmyBlair> i agree... dancer [19:39] <Islwyn13> agreed, Aislinn [19:39] <Islwyn13> I'm trying to think of a good example... [19:39] <Islwyn13> while reading the scrolling chat smile [19:39] <Belenzie> i think harry is "old" but has childish moments [19:39] <Islwyn13> If a parent tells their child to steal them a pack of cigarettes, should the child do so? [19:39] <Islwyn13> because the parent told them to? [19:39] <cbm> Was starting the DA unethical? that went against a rule, so I think more in terms of the golden rule for ethics. [19:40] <Aislinn> Umbridge banned the teachers from talking to the kids about anything but class work [19:40] <divaleder> everyone has to realize that the rules are for everyone, but that we work together for the good of the rules [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> the Dursleys lie and cheat--is it ethical for Harry to follow that rule because he is a child? [19:40] <melj1213> but look at what the DA achioeved later [19:40] <Aislinn> that was a rule - was it a moral or ethical one? [19:40] <Belenzie> albus the white aberforth the gray- gandalf the gray, gandalf the white ahahahah just though of that [19:40] <Aislinn> should the teachers have followed it? [19:40] <fawkes28> well, they are his guardians, PP [19:40] <Aislinn> I'd say absolutely not! [19:40] *** GadgetDon has quit [Bye] [19:40] <futureweasley> I know that "older" doesn't necessarily "wiser", but there is a time and place for respect. Following the "rules" is one of those times. Most of the "rules" set forth in HP really aren't that unreasonalbe [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> is it ethical for him to submit himself to their abuse, because he is a child? [19:40] <cloudpic> I had students whose parents wanted them to not take honors classes because it made them too busy with school work to sell drugs for mom and dad [19:40] <divaleder> no the child should not steal. if the child steals they are being unethical along with the parent [19:40] <harryfreak359> SO Future according to you, If it was a rule that you had to hurt someone who has never done any wrong, it would be ethical? [19:40] *** PerfectlyMMAD has joined #lounge [19:40] *** MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [19:40] <PerfectlyMMAD> sorry about that. =] [19:40] <fawkes28> wb, mmad and hello mr. m [19:41] <melj1213> no [19:41] <Aislinn> hi Mr M [19:41] <cloudpic> Hi there PerfectlyMMad and Mr. McG [19:41] <divaleder> how sad cloudpic [19:41] <dancerintheroom> hi! [19:41] <Islwyn13> in PoA, Harry and Hermione freed Sirius because they knew he was innocent and that he wouldn't have a chance to prove it to the mOM [19:41] <MrMcGonagall> Hi, everyone! [19:41] <futureweasley> that's not at all what I'm saying Harryfreak [19:41] <harryfreak359> hi MrMcG! [19:41] <cloudpic> Yep [19:41] <Islwyn13> they broke rules to do it... [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome Mr M [19:41] <Islwyn13> was that unethical? [19:41] *** Amontillada has joined #lounge [19:41] <divaleder> hi MrMcg [19:41] <Aislinn> but that would be a rule FW [19:41] <Islwyn13> or very ethical, given the faults of the Ministry? [19:41] <harryfreak359> oh, well I have misunderstood you Future [19:41] <adamgryff> hi MrMcG [19:41] <cbm> Not at all [19:41] <KimmyBlair> no i don't believe so [19:41] <divaleder> his amontillada [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> welcomd amantillada [19:41] <cloudpic> It was the right thing to do... freeing an innocent man [19:41] <melj1213> no because they had all of the info that the MoM didnt [19:41] <harryfreak359> didn't you say following the rules is ethical? [19:41] <dancerintheroom> Absolutley not [19:41] <futureweasley> I just said, the rules set forth in so much of the story are not unreasonable [19:41] <fawkes28> it could be considered unethical depending on whose point of view you look at, islwyn [19:41] <KimmyBlair> they were savng an innocnet man [19:41] <PerfectlyMMAD> I have to say ti was ethical based on the MoM [19:41] <Amontillada> Thanks, Sooner. It's wonderful to..ahh...type to all of you! [19:42] <dancerintheroom> they "saved an innocent man from a terrible fate" [19:42] <KimmyBlair> it may of been illega... but not unethical [19:42] <Islwyn13> many of them aren't, true, Future... [19:42] <cbm> The MoM would of ignored the evidence that Sirius was innocent [19:42] <futureweasley> no one would be foolish enough to even MAKE a rule like that! [19:42] <Islwyn13> but just because there is a rule, doesn't mean the rule is ethical, and doesn't mean breaking it is unethical [19:42] <futureweasley> the question is faulty [19:42] <Aislinn> is it more moral to save an innocent life, or to respect the letter of the law? [19:42] <cloudpic> I agree, cbm [19:42] <divaleder> you know what i like about the books is that the students for the most part are at least respectful to the teachers [19:42] <Islwyn13> true, Fawkes... [19:42] <divaleder> we don't have that here in america anymore [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> was it ethical to send Sirius to Azkaban without due process? [19:42] <Amontillada> Which is more moral, following the spirit or the letter of the law? [19:42] <Islwyn13> but should we trust Fudge's ethics, or Harry's, in that instnace? [19:42] <Aislinn> exactly islwyn [19:42] <MrMcGonagall> I'm in a meeting right now using wireless internet. I'm very unethical, so I can't judge. [19:42] <cloudpic> yes... I remember thinking that too divaleder [19:42] <Aislinn> lol Mr M [19:42] <divaleder> you can't get more ethical than to know that you respect your elders and those in authority [19:42] <Islwyn13> lol, MrM smile [19:42] <fawkes28> it more moral to save an innocent life then to follow the law in that case [19:43] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Mr M [19:43] <PerfectlyMMAD> Harry's ethijcs, Sirius is after all innocent [19:43] <fawkes28> but how can you know for every situation? [19:43] <harryfreak359> But, Future, what you are saying doesn't apply to everything then.... [19:43] <SoonerGryffindor> so you are breaking the rules Mr M? [19:43] <Islwyn13> you can't...you have to trust your instincts smile [19:43] <fawkes28> you have to go by your heart [19:43] <harryfreak359> there are too many variables [19:43] <Islwyn13> do what YOU feel is right [19:43] <Islwyn13> to me, that's morality [19:43] <divaleder> i'm a teacher and all we get from parents and students is irresponsibility and disrespect no matter what we do [19:43] <Aislinn> should you offer blind respect and blind following of the rules if you know they are immoral or unethical rules, divaleder? [19:43] <harryfreak359> yeah I agree Islwyn [19:43] <fawkes28> great minds, isl [19:43] <melj1213> it is as DD says there may be the easy path - to go with the rules or to defy them to do what is right [19:43] <cloudpic> But how can anyone trust their own judgement on all issues?? [19:43] <Islwyn13> hehe,t hanks, Fawkes smile [19:43] <PerfectlyMMAD> Trust your gut [19:44] <harryfreak359> The person who made the rules, mgiht not always be ethical [19:44] <Islwyn13> you have to take what you know, apply what you know is right, and take a chance, to do what is right [19:44] <Islwyn13> do what is right, not what is easy [19:44] <divaleder> no, not at all, but none of the normal, regular teachers ever show anything toward the students but respect so the teachers respect them back. [19:44] *** NiGHTS has joined #lounge [19:44] <cloudpic> That seems to ask a great deal of each person... too many people commit murder because they feel it is "right" [19:44] <Aislinn> right harryfreak [19:44] <ProngsPatronus> Percy follows all the rules--do you like Percy? [19:44] <Islwyn13> sometimes that means breaking the rules [19:44] <harryfreak359> so you, yourself, has to choose what is right [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome nights [19:44] <Islwyn13> if those rules are unjust, or are being unjustly applied [19:44] <divaleder> notice that umbridge is the mean one out and she has no respect because she is not respectful [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> good point Prongs [19:44] <harryfreak359> and leave out everyone else, because they might not actually be ethical This post has been edited by futureweasley: Oct 25 2006, 09:02 PM |
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