Corner Booth Transcript: 10/25/06 Www Chat, Morals and Ethics in Harry Potter |
 Oct 25 2006, 08:55 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter  Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner   |
Today's Moderators: Aislinn, SoonerGryffindor, fawkes28, Expelliarmas, futureweasley
*** futureweasley has joined #lounge [19:00] <futureweasley> Hi PP [19:00] <futureweasley> good to see you! [19:00] *** Snuffles changed the topic to: Ethics and Morals in Harry Potter (Aislinn) [19:00] <ProngsPatronus> Hey there--am I here too early for the Wise Wizard chat? [19:00] <Aislinn> Its just starting now smile [19:00] <ProngsPatronus> whew! [19:00] *** AmandaB has joined #lounge [19:00] <Aislinn> but we're going to give people about 15 min. to get here and settle in [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> thought I had walked into Bizarro Leaky Lounge [19:01] <Aislinn> I'm glad you're here, Prongs! [19:01] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [19:01] <Aislinn> I was hoping you would join in this particular topic smile [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:01] <futureweasley> hi Harryfreak [19:01] <Aislinn> lol [19:01] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [19:01] <harryfreak359> Hello everyone! [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> I wouldn't have missed it for the world [19:01] <harryfreak359> Can't wait for this topic! [19:01] <Aislinn> hi folks! [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> hello all [19:01] <harryfreak359> Woot! [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> hahaha [19:01] <harryfreak359> lol [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> thank you for following rule #3 [19:02] <harryfreak359> Well I like rule three [19:02] * futureweasley thinks Sooner's rules stink [19:02] <futureweasley> LOL [19:02] <harryfreak359> lol [19:02] <ProngsPatronus> Nice is my middle name [19:02] *** dancerintheroom has joined #lounge [19:02] <Aislinn> I have just adjusted Sooner's rules, as she had a typo in Rule #1 [19:02] <futureweasley> hi dancerintheroom [19:02] * harryfreak359 loves Sooner's rules [19:02] <SoonerGryffindor> ooooh [19:02] * SoonerGryffindor runs off to go look [19:02] <Aislinn> somehow a NOT was slipped in there, that did not belong [19:02] <harryfreak359> lol [19:03] *** Belenzie has joined #lounge [19:03] <AmandaB> what rules are these? [19:03] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:03] <Belenzie> long time no see all [19:03] <futureweasley> since Aislinn's the "manager", there edits STAY [19:03] <futureweasley> hi Belezie...where have you been [19:03] <futureweasley> ? [19:03] <Aislinn> exactly Future! [19:03] <fawkes28> hello all smile [19:03] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Aislinn [19:03] <Aislinn> tongue [19:03] <Belenzie> errrrrr not here?? [19:03] <Belenzie> lol [19:04] <dancerintheroom> Hi! This is my first time in at the corner booth so I hope I don't break any sacred rules! [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> lol dancer [19:04] <futureweasley> lol dancer...you will be just fine [19:04] <Aislinn> welcome dancer! [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> just pay close attention to the announcements and you will be fine [19:04] <dancerintheroom> thanks [19:04] <futureweasley> we'll make sure you "toe the line" [19:04] <dancerintheroom> Ok [19:04] <ProngsPatronus> it is just like the Leaky--only a lot faster [19:04] <fawkes28> :excited: [19:04] <fawkes28> w00t2 [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> !halfop fawkes28 [19:05] <Belenzie> Doris joining us tonight?? [19:05] <harryfreak359> w00t2 [19:05] <ProngsPatronus> I think Narya will be along soon [19:05] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> oh good [19:05] <Aislinn> very good [19:05] <harryfreak359> cool....this is going to be one interesting topic [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> I so love arguing with her laugh [19:05] <harryfreak359> lol [19:05] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome cp [19:05] <futureweasley> Hi Cloudpic [19:05] <harryfreak359> hi cloucpic! [19:06] *** adamgryff has joined #lounge [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> how do you make the smilies go? [19:06] <harryfreak359> cloudpic* [19:06] <futureweasley> I hate arguing with Narya... [19:06] <harryfreak359> you have to put a space before you begin the code [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> I have it checked on options, but it doesn't seem to be doing it [19:06] <futureweasley> I NEVER win...no matter how good my argument is! [19:06] <harryfreak359> lol [19:06] <cloudpic> Hi everybody! hmm.... harryfreak..sometimes I might cluck;D [19:06] <harryfreak359> lol [19:06] <adamgryff> hi everyone! [19:06] <harryfreak359> hi adam! [19:06] <futureweasley> adam...welcome [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> : lol : [19:06] <Belenzie> well I usually have Doris on my side so I always win [19:06] <cloudpic> Hi Adam [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> adam! [19:06] <Belenzie> lol jk [19:06] <ProngsPatronus> hey! [19:06] <futureweasley> LOVE your "unthinkable ships" montage [19:06] <futureweasley> LOL [19:07] <harryfreak359> hahahah me too!!!! [19:07] <cloudpic> Loved the video Adam [19:07] <adamgryff> all due to the corner booth chats [19:07] <harryfreak359> lol [19:07] <cloudpic> I liked the cannons best... [19:07] <ProngsPatronus> I really liked that one, too--but I loved the Prayer one, sentimental person that I am [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome adam [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> loved the new video [19:07] <Belenzie> is there only one room in this months reading groups?? [19:07] <adamgryff> to bad I don't have the other three movies yet [19:07] * futureweasley proudly takes credit for the Trelawney/LV ship [19:08] <harryfreak359> oh dear [19:08] <cloudpic> There are 5 Rooms this time Belenzie [19:08] <fawkes28> so how is everyone doing? [19:08] <harryfreak359> good! [19:08] <cloudpic> Sun shined all day... Whoop! [19:08] <fawkes28> harryfreak, have you learn what the correct word is yet? [19:08] <futureweasley> I'm great, thanks for asking! Love Basement Room 10!!! [19:08] <Belenzie> so did anyone end up making " a sea of ferrets" avatar??? [19:08] <Belenzie> well why do i only evr see Chamber 37?? [19:08] <adamgryff> still in bed with this cold, but I'm here. [19:08] <harryfreak359> yeah, of course fawkes [19:08] *** melj1213 has joined #lounge [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> because that is the room you were sorted into Bel [19:08] <harryfreak359> it is woot, if I am not mistakem [19:09] <dancerintheroom> I think you only see the reading group your in [19:09] <fawkes28> i have taken a 24 hour ban of that word [19:09] <cloudpic> Because you can only see the Room into which you are sorted [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, she has [19:09] * futureweasley hugs adamgryff, and offers a bowl of homemade chili [19:09] <cloudpic> True, dancerintheroom [19:09] <fawkes28> and you should too, hf, it's obviously getting to you [19:09] <adamgryff> thanks future [19:09] <harryfreak359> laugh [19:10] <harryfreak359> yeah, it is making crazy I am sure [19:10] <Belenzie> oh okay thanks [19:10] * ProngsPatronus can hardly wait for the 15 minutes to be up! [19:10] <cloudpic> But everyone should see into the Welcome Room (Great Hall) Belenzie [19:10] *** cbm has joined #lounge [19:10] <futureweasley> hi cbm [19:10] <cbm> hi! [19:10] <cloudpic> Hi there cbm! [19:10] <Belenzie> k [19:10] * fawkes28 shouts woo hoo from the rooftops!!! [19:10] <futureweasley> w00t2 [19:10] <harryfreak359> hi cbm [19:10] <adamgryff> hi cbm [19:10] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome cbm [19:10] *** JamesCharlesPotter has joined #lounge [19:10] <cbm> thanks [19:11] <futureweasley> you are regressing, fawkes [19:11] <dancerintheroom> *waves* [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome james [19:11] <melj1213> hey [19:11] <futureweasley> hi JameCharlesPotter [19:11] <adamgryff> hi james [19:11] <Aislinn> hello everyone smile [19:11] <fawkes28> hehe [19:11] <harryfreak359> hi! [19:11] <cloudpic> Poor futureweasley...such a quiet passive person... [19:11] *** Islwyn13 has joined #lounge [19:11] <ProngsPatronus> hello, all [19:11] <JamesCharlesPotter> Uh Hi! [19:11] <melj1213> hi [19:11] <futureweasley> hi Islwyn!! [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome Isl [19:11] <Aislinn> hi islwyn [19:11] <harryfreak359> heya Islwyn! [19:11] <fawkes28> hi islwyn! [19:11] <Islwyn13> Heya, all! [19:11] <cloudpic> Howdy, all! [19:11] <Islwyn13> oo, color change needeed... [19:11] <Islwyn13> better [19:11] * futureweasley hugs Islwyn (the queen supreme RG leader) [19:11] <cloudpic> purty [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> not the red..... not the red [19:11] <harryfreak359> smile [19:11] <SoonerGryffindor> hahahah [19:11] <harryfreak359> lol [19:11] * Islwyn13 blushes [19:11] * ProngsPatronus sighs at all the purty colours [19:12] <futureweasley> (except for Expie...she rocks) [19:12] *** JamesCharlesPotter has quit [Bye] [19:12] <fawkes28> i think you should pick red, islwyn smile [19:12] <Islwyn13> uh, oh, competition! I'll have to poke her with my pointy wand ;) [19:12] <Islwyn13> lol [19:12] <harryfreak359> I haven't ever had expie as a reading group leader yet [19:12] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:12] <Islwyn13> nope, I think Sooner can take me smile [19:12] <fawkes28> me either sad [19:12] <SoonerGryffindor> she'll just whack you with the 2x4 if you do Isl [19:12] <ProngsPatronus> ooo-- Mr. Pointy! [19:12] <harryfreak359> sad [19:12] <Islwyn13> I'll stick with brown smile [19:12] <harryfreak359> lol [19:12] <cloudpic> chocolate colored! [19:13] <Islwyn13> YES! and COFFEE! [19:13] <harryfreak359> lol [19:13] *** KimmyBlair has joined #lounge [19:13] <Islwyn13> better together! [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> Expie is a great leader and writes wonderful chapter summaries [19:13] <cloudpic> All things good for the spirit [19:13] <Aislinn> hi kimmy [19:13] <ProngsPatronus> food of the thousand little gods [19:13] <harryfreak359> chocolate is good [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> hey Kimmy! [19:13] <Islwyn13> I've no doubt! [19:13] <KimmyBlair> hello! [19:13] <Islwyn13> Heya, Kimmy! [19:13] <fawkes28> hi kimmy [19:13] <cloudpic> Hi, Kimmy [19:13] <harryfreak359> hi kimmy [19:13] <Islwyn13> my sister RG leader! [19:13] <futureweasley> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. [19:13] <futureweasley> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod [19:13] <futureweasley> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [19:14] <futureweasley> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [19:14] <futureweasley> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> In an interview last year, JKR said the following: And unlike Lewis, whose books are drenched in theology, Rowling refuses to view herself as a moral educator to the millions of children who read her books. "I don't think that it's at all healthy for the work for me to think in those terms. So I don't," she says. "I never think in terms of What am I going to teach them? Or, What would it be good for them to find out here?" [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> "Although," she adds, "undeniably, morals are drawn." But she doesn't make it easy. In Goblet, the good-hearted Cedric Diggory dies for no reason. In Phoenix, we learn that Harry's dad, whom he idealized, had been an arrogant bully. [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> People aren't good and bad by nature; they change and transform and struggle. As Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Granted, we know Harry will not succumb to anger and evil. But we never stop feeling that he could. [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Ethics are defined as a set of principles of right conduct, or a system of moral values. Morality is defined as the standards of right or good conduct. Some people feel that the Harry Potter series is a highly moral tale, while others feel that there are multiple episodes of questionable ethics and morals displayed. Let's discuss the issue of morality and ethics in Harry Potter. [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Do you consider the HP series a moral tale? Why or why not? [19:15] <KimmyBlair> Yes... [19:15] <futureweasley> I think that morals definitely play a huge part in HP [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> yes, I do [19:15] <Islwyn13> I agree [19:15] <futureweasley> p.s. Hi Kimmy [19:15] *** KimmyBlair has quit [Bye] [19:15] <adamgryff> yes, morals play a large part in this book [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> I think its definitely a big part of it [19:15] *** KimmyBlair has joined #lounge [19:15] <dancerintheroom> Yes [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> because morality involves the choices we make when no one is looking [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> psst... Kimmy.... dont hit the backspac e key laugh [19:15] <Islwyn13> I think a lot of it is Jo coming through in her writing [19:15] <cloudpic> It seems that the characters are constantly asked to make decisions about morality or ethics... [19:16] <Islwyn13> who she is, what's important to her [19:16] <futureweasley> I mean, look at where the characters would be if they had made different choices [19:16] <Aislinn> I think the books are particularly effective at exploring complex moral issues, precisely because JKR is not preachy about it [19:16] *** Ginnyous has joined #lounge [19:16] <fawkes28> yes morality seems to be one of the center's of the book [19:16] *** Tanaqui has joined #lounge [19:16] <Islwyn13> and even when the characters make mistakes, they learn from them [19:16] <ProngsPatronus> I agree [19:16] <cloudpic> Exactly... moral..choices [19:16] <Aislinn> I do too, Isl [19:16] <Ginnyous> Hi guys [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome gunny and tanaqui [19:16] <futureweasley> hi ginnous [19:16] <Tanaqui> hello [19:16] <futureweasley> *ginnyous [19:16] <adamgryff> agree islwyn [19:16] <ProngsPatronus> in the Potterverse, free will really is free [19:16] <KimmyBlair> I didn't sooner! the chat was all messed up... i couldn't see the memebers of the chat in the right hand window [19:16] <cloudpic> Hi, Tanaqui [19:16] <dancerintheroom> For me, anyway, its one of the things that makes the series most interesting [19:16] <Belenzie> it depends on who your talking to, remember these books are foungd in over a hundred countries so morals change from place to place [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:16] <dancerintheroom> The moral struggles of even the villans [19:16] <Ginnyous> what are we discussing today [19:17] <Islwyn13> morality in the HP series [19:17] <Aislinn> we are discussing morals and ethics [19:17] <cloudpic> Some moral standards are universal, Belenzie [19:17] <Islwyn13> oh, that's a discussoin I have with my husband all the time [19:17] <Islwyn13> universal morals [19:17] <Islwyn13> he doesn't think so, but I do [19:17] *** moody has joined #lounge [19:17] <futureweasley> and, aren't "morals" in the eye of the beholder? [19:17] <Aislinn> I tend to think there are certain universal "truths" [19:17] <Islwyn13> mostly [19:17] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome moody [19:17] <cloudpic> I believe I agree with you Islwyn... even throughout time some things hold true [19:17] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:17] <Ginnyous> Hi moody [19:18] <Aislinn> that could be viewed as morals [19:18] <Islwyn13> but there are some universal ones [19:18] * ProngsPatronus considers turning Draco into a ferret to be a moral imperative [19:18] *** PerfectlyMMAD has joined #lounge [19:18] <fawkes28> you are right, islwyn [19:18] <harryfreak359> I agree Islwyn [19:18] <moody> heya, whats the story??? [19:18] <futureweasley> hi perfectlyMMAD [19:18] <Islwyn13> even if it's only for reasons of a social contract [19:18] <Aislinn> lol prongs [19:18] <Belenzie> yeah aren't morals just another way to say norms of society?> [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome mmad [19:18] <cloudpic> LOL Prongs! [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> lol PP [19:18] <PerfectlyMMAD> hello! [19:18] <adamgryff> lol pp [19:18] <Aislinn> morals are actually more of a personal code [19:18] <cloudpic> No, I don't think moral values are that simple... [19:18] <futureweasley> we are talking about whether or not HP is a moral tale [19:18] <Islwyn13> sometimes they are norms of a society [19:18] <Belenzie> exactly Aislinn [19:18] <Islwyn13> the idea of "I won't steal from you if you won't steal from me" [19:18] <cbm> agreed aislinn [19:18] <cloudpic> There's an overlapping [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> well, there are morals that an individual has and there are also morals that society as a whole has [19:19] <Islwyn13> but I think,mostly, they are a sense of what is right and wrong [19:19] <futureweasley> definitely cloudpic [19:19] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> at their most basic, they are personal [19:19] <Ginnyous> I agree with Aislinn [19:19] <moody> i like the morals in hp, love is the most powerful sorce of magic an all that.. [19:19] <Islwyn13> I won't steal from you because I don't think it's right [19:19] <Aislinn> I kind of see ethics as a societal system of morality [19:19] <Belenzie> or the difference between murdering and killing? [19:19] <Islwyn13> not just because society frowns on it [19:19] <fawkes28> and morals also are carried down from generation to generation [19:19] <cloudpic> At least the decisions made about moral values are very personal [19:19] <futureweasley> sometimes, Belenzie [19:19] <fawkes28> think about the malfoys [19:19] <Islwyn13> yeah, Aislinn, that makes sense [19:19] <cloudpic> Good point Belenzie... [19:19] <Islwyn13> ethics is more a code of conduct, morality is more of what seems right to you [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> and sometimes over time, morals do shift frm time to time [19:19] <Islwyn13> I can see that [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> to me, ethics and morality are what you do when nobody is looking [19:19] <futureweasley> there's definitely a difference between "murder" and "self-defense" [19:19] <harryfreak359> yes, but not all of the times fawkes [19:19] *** Ginnyous has quit [Bye] [19:20] <Islwyn13> I agree, FW [19:20] <fawkes28> right, hf, because of our choices [19:20] <harryfreak359> agreed Future [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> that is a truer sense of what people will and won't do than anything else [19:20] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:20] *** Ginnyous has joined #lounge [19:20] <Belenzie> no future i mean murdering and killing [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> If you do believe that the HP series is a moral tale, what is the central theme of this morality? [19:20] <Islwyn13> oo, a central one... [19:20] <futureweasley> obviously: good v. evil [19:20] <Islwyn13> "it is our choices..." [19:20] <Islwyn13> that's probably the main one [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> choices [19:20] <Belenzie> Faith [19:20] <adamgryff> our choices [19:20] <Ginnyous> I learned my morals from my parents [19:20] <dancerintheroom> I don't think there is any one central [19:20] <moody> would harry actually have to kill someone? i dont think he should have to kill someone, i mean how morally correct is that?? [19:20] <Aislinn> I think Dumbledore's choice speech defines it well [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> Love is stronger than Hate and Despair [19:20] <futureweasley> and the choices you make to get there [19:21] <Islwyn13> it's not what you've experienced, it's not how you were raised, necessarily... [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> to kill or not to kill? [19:21] <PerfectlyMMAD> I agree with Furture [19:21] <Belenzie> * keeping faith in others and your own judgement [19:21] <cloudpic> Such decisions are complex...and some things change over time... now we might consider it against a moral value to polute the oceans... that might not have been ansomething people wereconscious of decades ago [19:21] <KimmyBlair> I think choices, and "good vs evil,? are main points of the serioes [19:21] <Islwyn13> it's what you choose to do with your life, what standard you choose to live by [19:21] <dancerintheroom> I think love, and choices, and what right vs whats easy [19:21] <Islwyn13> personal responsibility [19:21] <futureweasley> perception is nearly as influencial as reality [19:21] <fawkes28> yes, our choices...that one line has had a powerful effect on the series [19:21] *** Ginnyous left #lounge [] [19:21] <PerfectlyMMAD> It's what is in your heart that matters [19:21] <Aislinn> right islwyn [19:21] <Aislinn> I'd agree with that [19:21] <cloudpic> First, do no harm... fairly universal, but hard to know what "harm" is [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> yes--that quote about being dragged in, as opposed to walking in with one's head held high [19:21] <dancerintheroom> That intention does make a difference [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> that was telling [19:22] <Islwyn13> it's a big one for me, taking responsibility, and doing what is right, even if it's not easy [19:22] *** JamesCharlesPotter has joined #lounge [19:22] <cloudpic> Depends upon how poorly made someone's conscience is, no? [19:22] <moody> heya james [19:22] <melj1213> yeah DD's speech was v.profound [19:22] <Belenzie> telling the truth- even if it hurts- Luna is the spokesperson for that! [19:22] <Belenzie> lol [19:22] <Islwyn13> Heya, JCP (oh, no, that abbriev. doesn't work!) [19:22] <Islwyn13> Heya, James! [19:22] <JamesCharlesPotter> yeah it works [19:22] <Islwyn13> yes, I lOVE Luna and her brutal honesty! [19:22] <moody> yep [19:22] <futureweasley> there is a constant pull between "good" and "evil" and it's what they characters do in the "grey" that defines who they are [19:22] <cloudpic> GIGO applies to conscience, in that way Belenzie is right about changing society affecting the input [19:22] <JamesCharlesPotter> or you can call me chuck [19:22] <moody> chuck! [19:23] <Islwyn13> chuck it is! [19:23] <cloudpic> Good point future [19:23] <PerfectlyMMAD> Don't back down from your opinion, even if you know your wrong. Just change your ponit of veiw [19:23] <harryfreak359> yeah good point [19:23] <ProngsPatronus> it is the friction on that tensile membrane between good and evil that does it for me [19:23] <cloudpic> I'll try to remember Chuck! [19:23] <futureweasley> MMAD, I really like that [19:23] <dancerintheroom> good point [19:23] <Islwyn13> oh, I don't like that one, MMAD [19:23] <Aislinn> I think that Jo has said that she is exploring that MJ - the choices people make in difficult times with the grey areas [19:23] <melj1213> exactly, everyone has good and evil in them, but it is up to them which path 2 follow [19:23] <fawkes28> our character is what we do when know one is looking...which we have gotten to see in HP [19:23] <PerfectlyMMAD> Thanks [19:23] <Islwyn13> if you're wrong, you must admit it, and learn from it [19:23] <futureweasley> perception is key when analyzing what's what [19:23] <Islwyn13> it's ok to be wrong [19:23] <Belenzie> i think you mean change the way you at look at things [19:23] <KimmyBlair> i agree melj [19:23] <moody> anyone here from ireland, its half past mightnight here, that dedication for ya! [19:23] <Islwyn13> Harry is quite a bit, but not as often now [19:24] <melj1213> yup, from england...us die hard fans unite!!!! [19:24] <cloudpic> Yes it is, moody [19:24] <moody> haha, united like the hat says! [19:24] <cloudpic> Bravo to those across the Atlantic [19:24] <Islwyn13> I think there are too many themes of morality to necessarily hit on the CENTRAL theme [19:24] <melj1213> exactly [19:24] <dancerintheroom> haha, only 4:30 in california [19:24] <Islwyn13> they are all important [19:24] <dancerintheroom> pm, I mena [19:24] <Aislinn> that's a good way of looking at it fawkes [19:24] <dancerintheroom> **mean [19:24] <Belenzie> The one that I always try to remeber when reading these books is that its from Harry's point of view, and like any person that view can be scewed and biased [19:25] <ProngsPatronus> there is a difference between the generations, too [19:25] <moody> definitly bravo to us insomniacs! [19:25] *** isa has joined #lounge [19:25] <Islwyn13> true, Belenzie [19:25] <SoonerGryffindor> What other values do you see communicated in the Harry Potter series? [19:25] <PerfectlyMMAD> I agree Prongs! [19:25] <moody> bravery [19:25] <cloudpic> They seem to value loyalty [19:25] <Islwyn13> loyalty [19:25] <melj1213> i see the value of friendship and loyalty [19:25] <futureweasley> Let's try to stay on topic, guys. Thanks [19:25] <Islwyn13> love [19:25] <adamgryff> loyalty [19:25] <KimmyBlair> I on't know if this is necessarily a value.. but the importance of family [19:25] <PerfectlyMMAD> Defiinalty love, [19:25] <fawkes28> i believe that loyality is very important [19:25] *** divaleder has joined #lounge [19:25] <cbm> love [19:25] <Aislinn> Love, loyalty, friendship [19:25] <futureweasley> Honor, bravery [19:25] <Islwyn13> oh, Kimmy, I think that is DEFINITELY a value [19:25] <fawkes28> many people have been very loyal in the series [19:25] <KimmyBlair> i agree about friendship and loyalty [19:25] <isa> friendship [19:25] <adamgryff> hi divaleder [19:25] <Islwyn13> one Percy needs to look at more closely smile [19:25] <ProngsPatronus> well, that Hermuione quote, about books and cleverness--that one is important [19:25] <KimmyBlair> thanks Islwyn! [19:25] <KimmyBlair> yes! [19:26] <dancerintheroom> Yeah, the quote from hermione about friendship and bravery being more important than book smarts was telling [19:26] <Islwyn13> self-sacrifice is big, too [19:26] <Aislinn> that is a good one Prongs [19:26] <dancerintheroom> Oh sorry, prongs already said that [19:26] <KimmyBlair> I thik without friendship harry ould be a differnet person [19:26] <futureweasley> yes, dancer...definitely [19:26] <cloudpic> Hes, Islwyn [19:26] <Belenzie> kinship i think you mean kimmy [19:26] <moody> love is defo the main thing [19:26] <fawkes28> good one, PP [19:26] <cloudpic> *Yes [19:26] *** SillyPutty has joined #lounge [19:26] <KimmyBlair> also if he had a family he would be a differnet person [19:26] *** JamesCharlesPotter has quit [Bye] [19:26] <harryfreak359> yeah [19:26] <cbm> Harry's whole life owes itself to love and familiy [19:26] <futureweasley> the bonds of love and friendship [19:26] <fawkes28> hello sillyputty [19:26] <moody> it can overcome all obstikles [19:26] <Islwyn13> possibly, he would have been different [19:26] <isa> hi [19:26] <futureweasley> hi SillyPutty [19:26] <harryfreak359> hi sillyputty [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> sacrifice [19:26] <Islwyn13> somewhat [19:26] <cbm> His mother saved him [19:26] <SillyPutty> hey just popping real quick [19:26] <futureweasley> sacrifice is HUGE, PP...good one [19:26] <Islwyn13> but look at how different LV and harry turned out, even through their similar childhoods [19:26] <melj1213> well also DD's speach at the end of GoF when he extends his safety invite to everyone [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> a big theme is the sanctity of sacrifice [19:26] <moody> i know its confusing [19:27] <KimmyBlair> ohh good point about sacrifice [19:27] <Islwyn13> some of it is just a core value system [19:27] <Islwyn13> Harry has one, LV doesn't [19:27] <KimmyBlair> exactly [19:27] <divaleder> hi everyone I'm trying to catch onto all this. It's moving so fast. [19:27] <futureweasley> self-sacrifice and everyday sacrifices that must be made [19:27] <cloudpic> So, Unity too seems a value [19:27] <Belenzie> i don't like" sacrifice" as a value or moral its an act that occurs because of a moral [19:27] <dancerintheroom> Unity, overcoming differences [19:27] <Aislinn> sacrifice in the name of love, yes [19:27] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [19:27] <PerfectlyMMAD> I am not sure, but Mother and Child, the relationship bettween them, like with lily and Harry [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> and a BIG, HUGE one--mercy [19:27] <cbm> Was that one year that Harry had the difference [19:27] <Islwyn13> yes, Unity, definitlely [19:27] <HPotterExpert2> hello all! [19:27] <futureweasley> Hi HPE2 [19:27] <Islwyn13> we're still waiting for that one to play out, with teh Hogwarts houses [19:27] <Aislinn> mercy is huge, prongs [19:27] <Islwyn13> oh, yes, Mercy! [19:27] <moody> its hard to get used to the moving so fast thingy but ya do!! [19:27] <Islwyn13> excellent! [19:27] <dancerintheroom> Discrimination [19:27] <HPotterExpert2> hi FW! [19:27] <HPotterExpert2> biggrin [19:27] <Aislinn> we have seen several instances of that [19:27] <dancerintheroom> Humans vs non human magical creatures [19:27] <futureweasley> is Discrimination a value? [19:27] <melj1213> yeah like in the Sorting hats song islwyn [19:28] <harryfreak359> yes, mercy is pretty bug [19:28] <dancerintheroom> I guess...anti discrimination then [19:28] <moody> racisim [19:28] <AmandaB> Forgiveness is also an important theme. [19:28] <harryfreak359> big* [19:28] <Islwyn13> even Arthur has a little bit of discrimination going [19:28] <Belenzie> tolerance is a value [19:28] <dancerintheroom> Whatever the word for that is [19:28] <Islwyn13> yes, mel, the hat is never wrong! [19:28] <cbm> acceptance vs discrimination [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> depends on what you mean by that, FW [19:28] <dancerintheroom> Yes, thank you Belenzie [19:28] <adamgryff> agree amanda [19:28] <Belenzie> the hat is never wrong because you can never be weong about yourselg [19:28] <melj1213> well NHN says it feels duty bound to help in times of need [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> Harry is a very discrimminating fellow [19:28] <cloudpic> That's it Belenzie... with Dumbledore leading by example [19:28] <futureweasley> cbm, that's a very important comparison [19:28] <Islwyn13> oh, I think you can be wrong about yourself [19:28] <divaleder> forgiveness is a great thing in the stories. [19:28] <Belenzie> *wrong [19:28] <cloudpic> and Hagrid shows great tolerence as well [19:28] <moody> acceptance is important,of everyone and everthing [19:28] <Aislinn> respect for creatures of all kinds, or wizards regardless of blood status would be the value, rather than discrimination [19:29] *** PerfectlyMMAD left #lounge [] [19:29] <harryfreak359> yes, Aislinn [19:29] <melj1213> acceptance and forgiveness are key for me [19:29] <Islwyn13> you can blind yourself to what you truly are [19:29] <Aislinn> discrimination is the lack of that value [19:29] <ProngsPatronus> goos, one, Aislinn [19:29] <futureweasley> conversely, moody, the inability to accept is just as important [19:29] <moody> there's just so many morals!!! [19:29] <divaleder> harry isn't always that accepting [19:29] <KimmyBlair> good point aislinn [19:29] <SillyPutty> you don't accepet things that are differnt you turn into a durlsey [19:29] <Belenzie> i mean when considering what the hat"looks for" iside your head [19:29] <Islwyn13> that's what I like about Harry, though... [19:29] *** isa has quit [Bye] [19:29] <moody> yep futureweasley [19:29] * ProngsPatronus wonders what happened to her fingers... [19:29] <Islwyn13> he's not perfect [19:29] <harryfreak359> it makes him more human that way I think, Islywn [19:29] <Islwyn13> testing [19:29] <Islwyn13> there it goes, sorry [19:30] <Islwyn13> he can make mistakes, and we can learn WITH him, not just through him [19:30] <fawkes28> we see you, isl [19:30] <divaleder> look at the harry and snape thing. neither is accepting [19:30] *** divaleder has quit [Bye] [19:30] <futureweasley> typos are the only downfall of the booth, PP...no worries, it happens to all of us [19:30] *** GadgetDon has joined #lounge [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> there is something else that she brings out about evil, though [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> Let's talk about some of the specific characters. Do you consider Harry to be a moral or ethical person? Why or why not? [19:30] <Islwyn13> YES! [19:30] <harryfreak359> in some ways [19:30] <cbm> Yes! [19:30] <futureweasley> in some ways [19:30] <melj1213> belenzie is right even Hogwarts discriminates with the houses [19:30] <Islwyn13> well, he's growing up, remember [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> mostly [19:30] <SillyPutty> depends on the situation.... [19:30] <futureweasley> half-moral [19:30] <dancerintheroom> In many ways [19:30] <fawkes28> yes, overall he is but he is by no means perfect [19:30] <GadgetDon> Partially yes, though he's missing some parts. [19:30] <Islwyn13> he has to learn what is right and what isn't [19:30] <fawkes28> lol future [19:30] <KimmyBlair> He tries to be moral and ethical... but he is human so he has imperfections [19:30] <dancerintheroom> He is not perfect...but thats what makes him human [19:30] <Islwyn13> ultimately, his motives are good [19:30] <Aislinn> I think, as Islwyn said, he is not a perfect person, but then who is? [19:30] <ProngsPatronus> yes, in all the important things, I think he is more moral than not [19:30] <cloudpic> In almost every circumstance, Harry tries to do what is "right." [19:30] <SillyPutty> he has morals and ethics and he knows how to use them [19:30] <Islwyn13> even if his actions are sometimes mistakes [19:30] <adamgryff> mostly, he has some issues, but learns from his mistakes [19:30] <moody> i personally think the greatest moral in the book is to accept everyone, but its for a personally reason [19:30] <harryfreak359> half-moral? that's not a choice [19:31] <fawkes28> he does make some poor decisions like when he went off to hogsmeade [19:31] <Aislinn> exactly right, islwyn [19:31] <melj1213> nobody's perfect and everyone makes mistakes [19:31] <fawkes28> lol, hf [19:31] <futureweasley> lol harryfreak [19:31] <harryfreak359> biggrin [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> he is just as human as anyone [19:31] <Aislinn> his motivations and intentions are pure ones in almost every instance [19:31] <SillyPutty> but he has them - so yes.... [19:31] <KimmyBlair> he's a typical teenager [19:31] <Belenzie> i liked a brooding harry he made more sense then [19:31] <Belenzie> lol [19:31] <harryfreak359> yeah, pretty much Aislinn [19:31] <Islwyn13> yes, and in that sense, Harry is pure [19:31] <cbm> Poor decisions are not the same as bad morals [19:31] <Aislinn> so from that perspective, I'd say he's a highly moral person [19:31] <moody> yea, but he took a while to accept luna [19:31] <fawkes28> harry also follows his heart which sometimes gets him to make less than moral choices [19:31] <GadgetDon> Harry is weak on respecting other people's privacy [19:31] <Islwyn13> his execution is just sometimes poor smile [19:31] <futureweasley> well, it's true. In the name of doing what's "right", he makes some bad decisions ethically speaking [19:31] <SillyPutty> even if he doesn't always follow the rules - which are different then morals - he has them in place to guide him in his decisions [19:31] <cloudpic> Agreed, cbm [19:31] <Islwyn13> well, Harry respects privacy unless he thinks someone is up to something [19:31] *** divaleder has joined #lounge [19:32] <SillyPutty> but like with most teenagers - he thinks he knows better then adults who gave him those morals/ethics [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> but at least he did accept her--which is more than can be said for her housemates [19:32] <Islwyn13> then he wants to know what it is ;) [19:32] <Islwyn13> and sometimes, SillyPutty, he's right smile [19:32] <Aislinn> he is much more accepting of her, even early on, than most of the students at Hogwarts [19:32] <Islwyn13> look at the "morals" Snape pushes [19:32] <SillyPutty> yep, Islwynm yep [19:32] <fawkes28> harry still does not take the high moral road when dealing with draco [19:32] <Islwyn13> hid your emotions, deny them [19:32] <futureweasley> but sometimes, Islwyn, the same "ends" could have been achieved by following the rules [19:32] <moody> he is quick to make opinions of people eg snape. he immeditly makes up his mind about people, whether there good or bad [19:32] <SillyPutty> thats cause draco is his achilles heel [19:32] <melj1213> well harry knows what it feels like to be ignored, and so knows how she may feel [19:32] <Belenzie> well neither does Draco smile [19:32] <Islwyn13> while good in some situations, it's Harrys ability to feel that makes him so special [19:32] <Aislinn> what do you feel he should do, regarding Draco, fawkes? [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> no, one doesn't with petty evil [19:33] <Islwyn13> well, that falls into his being immature, FW, I think [19:33] <Islwyn13> learning how to do what is right [19:33] <Islwyn13> more so than doing what is right [19:33] <SillyPutty> but Harry doesn't do things out of Hate like draco does... and I think thats what bothers him about draco... [19:33] <melj1213> harry can empathise with luna [19:33] <harryfreak359> I agree Islwyn [19:33] <Islwyn13> he knows what is right, just not how to do achieve it, always [19:33] <futureweasley> immature and misguided [19:33] <divaleder> draco isn't really as bad as he tries to be. [19:33] <Aislinn> specific example FW? [19:33] <Islwyn13> I agree with that [19:33] <SillyPutty> draco falls outside of what Harry deems as a moral person [19:33] <futureweasley> because, let's face it, he's gotten some bad ethics advice,too [19:33] <fawkes28> i think if he is truely a moral character he needs to learn to control his own emotions when it comes to certain people he dislikes [19:33] <Belenzie> draco called lucius dad- that means draco does have a heart [19:33] <cloudpic> I hope you're right divaleder [19:33] <Belenzie> lol [19:34] <melj1213> well with Lucius for a father Draco has no examples of good morals [19:34] <Aislinn> emotions are one thing and actions are another fawkes [19:34] <Islwyn13> I think you can be moral and overly emotinoal [19:34] <Islwyn13> though the emotions can distract you if you let them rule you [19:34] <divaleder> draco is never going to be bad as LV needs his people to be [19:34] <ProngsPatronus> draco was instrumental in getting hagrid sent to azkaban, too [19:34] <dancerintheroom> Draco is not exactly an ethical person, but I certainly wouldn't put him in the same class as his father [19:34] <fawkes28> just because someone is mean to you doesn't mean you have to be mean back [19:34] <Islwyn13> but I don't think that has to do with morality [19:34] <Aislinn> it is possible to feel anger, frustration, and other negative emotions, and still be quite ethical [19:34] <Belenzie> he has respect for his superiors- or who he feels are his superiors [19:34] <adamgryff> draco did the moral thing in not killing dd [19:34] <Islwyn13> again, it's your choices that matter [19:34] <fawkes28> then you are stooping to their level [19:34] <Islwyn13> what you dop with what you're feelig [19:34] <cbm> Lucious probably think that muggle torture is moral [19:34] <futureweasley> Aislinn, any kind of "rule-breaking" automatically shoulcd be seen as "unethical" [19:34] <moody> well i think harry needs to be less quick to judge [19:34] <Islwyn13> Oh, I disagree, FW [19:34] <ProngsPatronus> I disagree [19:34] <Aislinn> oh, I so disagree with that [19:35] <Islwyn13> sometimes the rules are unethical [19:35] <SillyPutty> i disagree as well [19:35] <fawkes28> aislinn, do you think harry was ethical when he used the sectumsempra curse on draco?? [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree with that a lot [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> yes [19:35] <harryfreak359> I disagree too [19:35] <divaleder> sometimes you have to break a rule for the good of all [19:35] <Islwyn13> look at what Umbridge tried to do [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> Umbridge had rules [19:35] <Belenzie> yeas beacuse you feel those things when other people do not follow your idea of ethical [19:35] <Aislinn> look at all the educational decrees put in place by Umbridge [19:35] <cloudpic> One of harry's talents is that quick thinking, though [19:35] <fawkes28> i consider that to be highly unethical [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> I lived in the South in the 1950's [19:35] <Aislinn> Were those ethical, just because they were rules? [19:35] <cloudpic> He'd lose a lot if he pondered [19:35] <Aislinn> was it unethical to break them? [19:35] <ProngsPatronus> so I will never agree with that [19:35] <cbm> He did not know what it did [19:35] <Islwyn13> good point, Prongs [19:35] <harryfreak359> Rules are not ethics, some rules are very unethical [19:35] <cloudpic> Excellent, Prongs [19:35] <Islwyn13> those were unethical laws that needed to be abolished [19:35] <Islwyn13> and rebelled against [19:35] <divaleder> sometimes you have to do for the whole instead of the one [19:35] <Aislinn> I think he was foolish fawkes, but not unethical, with the sectumsempra [19:36] <Islwyn13> agreed [19:36] <Islwyn13> he didn't know what it would do [19:36] <adamgryff> agreed [19:36] <ProngsPatronus> how could that be unethical? [19:36] <dancerintheroom> agreed [19:36] <divaleder> it makes a difference if you break a rule for the benefit of others [19:36] <Islwyn13> I don't think he ever would have used it, even against Draco, if he'd known [19:36] <futureweasley> Rules are rules! No matter how right you think you are and the "rules" are not, they are there to be respected [19:36] <melj1213> he didnt know the outcome and so he was just experimenting - is that unethical? [19:36] <moody> i think harry knew that spell he atacked draco with in the bathroom was dark magic [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry and his friends do not always follow the rules. Does this make them unethical? [19:36] <fawkes28> it was foolish and unethical [19:36] <Aislinn> oh, future! [19:36] <Islwyn13> nope, I disagree, FW smile sorry [19:36] <harryfreak359> no [19:36] <SillyPutty> and he was doing it to protect himself... draco was on the verge of using a unofrgivable on him [19:36] <dancerintheroom> No [19:36] <cbm> No, [19:36] <Islwyn13> again, no, not unethical to break rules [19:36] <Aislinn> totally and completely disagree [19:36] <Islwyn13> necessarily [19:36] <divaleder> those of you who think you cannot break any rules ever, have you ever told a little white lie [19:36] <adamgryff> no [19:36] <SillyPutty> that doesn't mean breaking them is unethical... [19:36] <harryfreak359> extremely disagree [19:36] <cloudpic> What cbm said earler, poor decisions don't make you unethical [19:37] <fawkes28> it depends on the situation [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> sorry, FW, as much as I respect you, I will still have to disagree with that [19:37] <dancerintheroom> In fact, I would say that is unethical to follow rules when you know that by doing so you would be harming some one [19:37] <Aislinn> so you think that everyone should have followed Umbridge's rules? [19:37] <SillyPutty> its bad but not unethical... [19:37] <melj1213> no rule can be universally applied - it must be put in the context of the situation [19:37] <divaleder> well, haven't you ever told a friend they look good in an outfit when it was really bad because you knew they liked it [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that it all depends on who is making the rules and why they have to be broken [19:37] <divaleder> that could be called unethical [19:37] <moody> bye guys, gonna go...fallin asleep [19:37] <Aislinn> ethical standards can sometimes be MORE moral than the rules one is faced with [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> there is no one rule that fits all [19:37] <Aislinn> bye moody [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> bye moody [19:37] <cbm> If you speed are you unethical, that is breaking a rule? [19:37] <dancerintheroom> bye [19:37] <cloudpic> bye moody...thanks for trying! [19:37] <Islwyn13> bye, Moody! [19:37] <harryfreak359> can you be ethical by following unethical rules? [19:37] <futureweasley> Rules are there for "protection". Someone older and wiser than you came up with them. Though you MAY have the opportunity down the line to change them or reform them, while you are a child, you should follow them [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> made by humans [19:37] <futureweasley> period [19:37] <moody> enjoy the rest of the chat! [19:37] <melj1213> all rules must be put in context [19:37] <divaleder> bye moody [19:38] <SillyPutty> bye moody - time for me to go as well.... [19:38] <Islwyn13> Umbridge was older, but not wiser smile [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> bye, moody! [19:38] <Aislinn> and choosing to abide by those rules, when you know them to be immoral, to me is being unethical [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> bye silly putty [19:38] <SillyPutty> slavery is allowed in the wizarding world - is that eithical? [19:38] <divaleder> bye sillyputty [19:38] *** SillyPutty has quit [Bye] [19:38] <moody> see ya cloudpic, nice chattin to ya smile [19:38] <fawkes28> do you consider harry a child, future? [19:38] <cbm> I would never call the ministry wiser [19:38] <Aislinn> just because someone is older doesn't always make them wiser FW [19:38] <ProngsPatronus> I disagree [19:38] <divaleder> i agree with aislinn [19:38] <harryfreak359> disagree with the term "older and wiser," just becasuse they are older, doesn't not mean that they are wiser [19:38] <cloudpic> A child who lives with unethical parents shouldn't be following their rules, e.g. selling drugs [19:38] <dancerintheroom> Was it unethical of Dobby to try and warn harry because the malfoys had not told him to? [19:38] <futureweasley> some parents come up with unjust rules, but you don't see kids being rewarded for going against their parent's wishes [19:38] <Islwyn13> Umbridge was trying to rule with an iron fist, to deny what was true, to harm anyone who wanted to shout the truth [19:38] <Aislinn> Umbridge is certainly not wiser [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> good question dancer [19:38] <Islwyn13> THAT was what was unethical [19:38] <divaleder> i'm really old and i'm not always that wise [19:38] <cloudpic> Excellent point dancer [19:38] <fawkes28> right, hf, like fudge [19:39] <ProngsPatronus> I have had persona experience with that one, and I know that doesn't agree with my moral stance [19:39] <melj1213> as DD says youth lack experience, but the older must not forget what it is to be young [19:39] *** moody left #lounge [] [19:39] <Aislinn> I think you have an ethical responsibility to work against immoral rules [19:39] <Islwyn13> depends on the rules the parents put forth [19:39] <KimmyBlair> i agree... dancer [19:39] <Islwyn13> agreed, Aislinn [19:39] <Islwyn13> I'm trying to think of a good example... [19:39] <Islwyn13> while reading the scrolling chat smile [19:39] <Belenzie> i think harry is "old" but has childish moments [19:39] <Islwyn13> If a parent tells their child to steal them a pack of cigarettes, should the child do so? [19:39] <Islwyn13> because the parent told them to? [19:39] <cbm> Was starting the DA unethical? that went against a rule, so I think more in terms of the golden rule for ethics. [19:40] <Aislinn> Umbridge banned the teachers from talking to the kids about anything but class work [19:40] <divaleder> everyone has to realize that the rules are for everyone, but that we work together for the good of the rules [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> the Dursleys lie and cheat--is it ethical for Harry to follow that rule because he is a child? [19:40] <melj1213> but look at what the DA achioeved later [19:40] <Aislinn> that was a rule - was it a moral or ethical one? [19:40] <Belenzie> albus the white aberforth the gray- gandalf the gray, gandalf the white ahahahah just though of that [19:40] <Aislinn> should the teachers have followed it? [19:40] <fawkes28> well, they are his guardians, PP [19:40] <Aislinn> I'd say absolutely not! [19:40] *** GadgetDon has quit [Bye] [19:40] <futureweasley> I know that "older" doesn't necessarily "wiser", but there is a time and place for respect. Following the "rules" is one of those times. Most of the "rules" set forth in HP really aren't that unreasonalbe [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> is it ethical for him to submit himself to their abuse, because he is a child? [19:40] <cloudpic> I had students whose parents wanted them to not take honors classes because it made them too busy with school work to sell drugs for mom and dad [19:40] <divaleder> no the child should not steal. if the child steals they are being unethical along with the parent [19:40] <harryfreak359> SO Future according to you, If it was a rule that you had to hurt someone who has never done any wrong, it would be ethical? [19:40] *** PerfectlyMMAD has joined #lounge [19:40] *** MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [19:40] <PerfectlyMMAD> sorry about that. =] [19:40] <fawkes28> wb, mmad and hello mr. m [19:41] <melj1213> no [19:41] <Aislinn> hi Mr M [19:41] <cloudpic> Hi there PerfectlyMMad and Mr. McG [19:41] <divaleder> how sad cloudpic [19:41] <dancerintheroom> hi! [19:41] <Islwyn13> in PoA, Harry and Hermione freed Sirius because they knew he was innocent and that he wouldn't have a chance to prove it to the mOM [19:41] <MrMcGonagall> Hi, everyone! [19:41] <futureweasley> that's not at all what I'm saying Harryfreak [19:41] <harryfreak359> hi MrMcG! [19:41] <cloudpic> Yep [19:41] <Islwyn13> they broke rules to do it... [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome Mr M [19:41] <Islwyn13> was that unethical? [19:41] *** Amontillada has joined #lounge [19:41] <divaleder> hi MrMcg [19:41] <Aislinn> but that would be a rule FW [19:41] <Islwyn13> or very ethical, given the faults of the Ministry? [19:41] <harryfreak359> oh, well I have misunderstood you Future [19:41] <adamgryff> hi MrMcG [19:41] <cbm> Not at all [19:41] <KimmyBlair> no i don't believe so [19:41] <divaleder> his amontillada [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> welcomd amantillada [19:41] <cloudpic> It was the right thing to do... freeing an innocent man [19:41] <melj1213> no because they had all of the info that the MoM didnt [19:41] <harryfreak359> didn't you say following the rules is ethical? [19:41] <dancerintheroom> Absolutley not [19:41] <futureweasley> I just said, the rules set forth in so much of the story are not unreasonable [19:41] <fawkes28> it could be considered unethical depending on whose point of view you look at, islwyn [19:41] <KimmyBlair> they were savng an innocnet man [19:41] <PerfectlyMMAD> I have to say ti was ethical based on the MoM [19:41] <Amontillada> Thanks, Sooner. It's wonderful to..ahh...type to all of you! [19:42] <dancerintheroom> they "saved an innocent man from a terrible fate" [19:42] <KimmyBlair> it may of been illega... but not unethical [19:42] <Islwyn13> many of them aren't, true, Future... [19:42] <cbm> The MoM would of ignored the evidence that Sirius was innocent [19:42] <futureweasley> no one would be foolish enough to even MAKE a rule like that! [19:42] <Islwyn13> but just because there is a rule, doesn't mean the rule is ethical, and doesn't mean breaking it is unethical [19:42] <futureweasley> the question is faulty [19:42] <Aislinn> is it more moral to save an innocent life, or to respect the letter of the law? [19:42] <cloudpic> I agree, cbm [19:42] <divaleder> you know what i like about the books is that the students for the most part are at least respectful to the teachers [19:42] <Islwyn13> true, Fawkes... [19:42] <divaleder> we don't have that here in america anymore [19:42] <ProngsPatronus> was it ethical to send Sirius to Azkaban without due process? [19:42] <Amontillada> Which is more moral, following the spirit or the letter of the law? [19:42] <Islwyn13> but should we trust Fudge's ethics, or Harry's, in that instnace? [19:42] <Aislinn> exactly islwyn [19:42] <MrMcGonagall> I'm in a meeting right now using wireless internet. I'm very unethical, so I can't judge. [19:42] <cloudpic> yes... I remember thinking that too divaleder [19:42] <Aislinn> lol Mr M [19:42] <divaleder> you can't get more ethical than to know that you respect your elders and those in authority [19:42] <Islwyn13> lol, MrM smile [19:42] <fawkes28> it more moral to save an innocent life then to follow the law in that case [19:43] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Mr M [19:43] <PerfectlyMMAD> Harry's ethijcs, Sirius is after all innocent [19:43] <fawkes28> but how can you know for every situation? [19:43] <harryfreak359> But, Future, what you are saying doesn't apply to everything then.... [19:43] <SoonerGryffindor> so you are breaking the rules Mr M? [19:43] <Islwyn13> you can't...you have to trust your instincts smile [19:43] <fawkes28> you have to go by your heart [19:43] <harryfreak359> there are too many variables [19:43] <Islwyn13> do what YOU feel is right [19:43] <Islwyn13> to me, that's morality [19:43] <divaleder> i'm a teacher and all we get from parents and students is irresponsibility and disrespect no matter what we do [19:43] <Aislinn> should you offer blind respect and blind following of the rules if you know they are immoral or unethical rules, divaleder? [19:43] <harryfreak359> yeah I agree Islwyn [19:43] <fawkes28> great minds, isl [19:43] <melj1213> it is as DD says there may be the easy path - to go with the rules or to defy them to do what is right [19:43] <cloudpic> But how can anyone trust their own judgement on all issues?? [19:43] <Islwyn13> hehe,t hanks, Fawkes smile [19:43] <PerfectlyMMAD> Trust your gut [19:44] <harryfreak359> The person who made the rules, mgiht not always be ethical [19:44] <Islwyn13> you have to take what you know, apply what you know is right, and take a chance, to do what is right [19:44] <Islwyn13> do what is right, not what is easy [19:44] <divaleder> no, not at all, but none of the normal, regular teachers ever show anything toward the students but respect so the teachers respect them back. [19:44] *** NiGHTS has joined #lounge [19:44] <cloudpic> That seems to ask a great deal of each person... too many people commit murder because they feel it is "right" [19:44] <Aislinn> right harryfreak [19:44] <ProngsPatronus> Percy follows all the rules--do you like Percy? [19:44] <Islwyn13> sometimes that means breaking the rules [19:44] <harryfreak359> so you, yourself, has to choose what is right [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome nights [19:44] <Islwyn13> if those rules are unjust, or are being unjustly applied [19:44] <divaleder> notice that umbridge is the mean one out and she has no respect because she is not respectful [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> good point Prongs [19:44] <harryfreak359> and leave out everyone else, because they might not actually be ethical This post has been edited by futureweasley: Oct 25 2006, 09:02 PM |
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Oct 25 2006, 09:05 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner |
[19:44] <PerfectlyMMAD> eh Nights
[19:44] <dancerintheroom> Something to think about: The death eaters believe that what they are doing is moral. To them, voldemort's orders are the "rules" would it be unethical for them to stop following his rules, for example was RAB unethical? [19:44] <NiGHTS> Hi everyone, finally got here at right time !!! (I'm English) [19:45] <fawkes28> the rules are a guide and sometimes are meant to be broken...dumbledore of all people abides by this philosophy [19:45] <Islwyn13> I dont 'think they do think they are moral, dancer [19:45] <Aislinn> hi nights [19:45] <melj1213> she has no control because she tries to control everything - breeding resentment [19:45] <NiGHTS> What's the topic, please? [19:45] <Islwyn13> I think they glory in the power of fear and intimidation [19:45] <cloudpic> I'm sorry [19:45] <Islwyn13> they don't care if it's right [19:45] <Aislinn> I don't think its a question of morality for them dancer [19:45] <cloudpic> Must go... great chat topic!! [19:45] <Amontillada> NiGHTS, Harry would say that Greenwich is the standard time, after all! [19:45] <Islwyn13> I don't think they suffer from moral delimmas [19:45] <Aislinn> it is an belief system, but not a moral one [19:45] <NiGHTS> Hi Aislinn [19:45] <Islwyn13> later, Cloudpic! [19:45] <divaleder> fawkes28, you are exactly right [19:45] <ProngsPatronus> awwww--bye, cloudpic! [19:45] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [19:45] <NiGHTS> I used 2 live in Greenwich !!! [19:45] <dancerintheroom> I think that they believe it is moral to kill muggleborns [19:45] <dancerintheroom> They think that they are "purifying" the world [19:46] <AmandaB> According to LV, there is no Right and Wrong, just power and those too weak to seek it... if I remember correctly. [19:46] *** LillyLovegood has joined #lounge [19:46] <Islwyn13> but is that a moral stance? or a stance of acquiring power? [19:46] <Aislinn> right amanda [19:46] <Islwyn13> It might be moral to them, I don't know [19:46] <SoonerGryffindor> What do you consider Harry's most questionable act, ethically speaking? [19:46] <Aislinn> and that is not a moral stance, but a philosophical one [19:46] <cbm> I think it is a moral stance [19:46] <Islwyn13> oh, wow...tough [19:46] <NiGHTS> I think Death Eaters and their ilk R very much like upper class/gentry ... [19:46] <fawkes28> good question! [19:46] <harryfreak359> hmmm... [19:46] *** Tanaqui has quit [Bye] [19:46] <NiGHTS> they believe they have an automatic superiority [19:46] <divaleder> ever heard the saying honor among theives [19:46] <ProngsPatronus> the Potions book [19:46] <MrMcGonagall> Good question, Sooner. [19:46] <HPotterExpert2> I'm so out of it, and lost sad [19:46] <dancerintheroom> tough... [19:46] <Islwyn13> I don't think they feel loyalty to each other, for the most part [19:46] <PerfectlyMMAD> Tehfight with Beletrix, and trying to us an unforgivable [19:47] <Islwyn13> so honor among thieves is lost on them [19:47] <cbm> Putting mud on Draco? [19:47] <Islwyn13> oo, that's a good one MMAD [19:47] <dancerintheroom> When he blew up at Ron and Hermione in OOTP [19:47] <fawkes28> i think that is a good one PP [19:47] <Aislinn> I think that Harry's choice to use Unforgivables against Snape at the end of HBP was his most immoral act [19:47] *** LillyLovegood has quit [Bye] [19:47] <divaleder> i think lv and his deatheaters are sometimes and i mean only sometimes with honor amongst themselves [19:47] <futureweasley> actually, harryfreak, the argument I'm making is completely plausible...it is you who is skewing my message. What I'm trying to say is that the rules set forth in HP are not unreasonalbe, and should be respected by those for wholm they are ment to protec t [19:47] <fawkes28> because harry knew it was wrong [19:47] <Aislinn> even though he wasn't successful [19:47] <fawkes28> he was not using his own work the whole year in potions [19:47] <Islwyn13> but not all the rules, FW [19:47] <harryfreak359> I see what you are saying, but I don't think all of the rules are ethical Future [19:47] <fawkes28> i like that point, aislinn, harry was not moral when he tried that [19:48] <harryfreak359> Umbridges, Voldemort's, etc. [19:48] <Amontillada> Trying Unforgiveables in HBP [19:48] <NiGHTS> But is Harry, more ethical than most, after all he didn't try 2 kill Bella in the Ministry [19:48] <Aislinn> he still had to produce the potions, fawkes [19:48] <PerfectlyMMAD> Fawks, take any teenager and add homework, if there is away that you can reduce it, then Most would. Too much stress. [19:48] <SoonerGryffindor> I think anytime Harry tried an unforgiveable was his most unetheical act [19:48] <futureweasley> oh, forget those guys...Harry doesn't follow their "rules" anyway [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> I think all of those points are good--but the reason I picked the Potions book is that it was so petty [19:48] <Aislinn> so I don't see that as a highly unethical act [19:48] <ProngsPatronus> and harry is not ususally so petty [19:48] <harryfreak359> *sigh* [19:48] <fawkes28> but he did have help and he knew it was wrong [19:48] <cbm> he tried to torture her, that to me is worse, than killing in a fight [19:49] <harryfreak359> because Harry is being moral in going with his own morals [19:49] <divaleder> harry continues to show that he is a hero who is still human. humans don't always do what is right [19:49] <NiGHTS> Fair's fair though, Harry was at a disadvantage 4 previous 5 yrs in Potions [19:49] <NiGHTS> didn't he deserve a bit of help [19:49] <fawkes28> but all year, mmad?? [19:49] <PerfectlyMMAD> Harry did, I get it know, sorry [19:49] <melj1213> well i got to go guys, its 1am in the UK and i'm tired [19:49] <Aislinn> he didn't cbm - he lashed out at her, and immediately stopped, because torture is not in him [19:49] <cbm> I now think the unforgivable was the worst act, I am convinced [19:49] <harryfreak359> bye [19:49] <fawkes28> maybe once or twice but all year is a lot [19:49] <Aislinn> bye mel [19:49] <divaleder> i don't think it was unethical for harry to follow the potions book. most of us would do that. [19:49] <ProngsPatronus> bye melj [19:49] <NiGHTS> I do agree cbm ... wonder if that 1 will come back 2 haunt him [19:50] <dancerintheroom> Had it been Snapes class I might be more understanding about the potions book...but slughorn didn't give him as much of a reason [19:50] <divaleder> harry was right when he said that the book wasn't forcing him to do anything it said. [19:50] <PerfectlyMMAD> SOme do, I know my friends who do that, Highschool is alot of stress! [19:50] *** melj1213 left #lounge [] [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> I wouldn't [19:50] <NiGHTS> What would U have done dancer? [19:50] <harryfreak359> It really depends on what you define ethical as [19:50] <Aislinn> like Ron said, he didn't know if the notations would help or hurt - he just took the risk and it paid off [19:50] <cbm> he tried to though, he said the words, but he goodness kept it from happening [19:50] <SoonerGryffindor> What do you consider Harry's most ethically sound choice? [19:50] *** KimmyBlair has joined #lounge [19:50] <KimmyBlair> finally!! [19:50] <SoonerGryffindor> wb Kimmy! [19:50] <SoonerGryffindor> woot! [19:50] <fawkes28> wb kimmy [19:50] <Amontillada> Right, Aislinn--torture is not in Harry because his sense of morality is too strong to let it in [19:50] <dancerintheroom> I'm not saying I wouldn't have done it (I'm not sure what I would have done) [19:50] <harryfreak359> wb Kimmy! [19:50] <KimmyBlair> i never thought i would make it back! [19:50] <Aislinn> there are people who buy used textbooks all the time for college, and they may have notes in the margins [19:50] <PerfectlyMMAD> eh Kimmy [19:50] <Aislinn> I don't see that as a big problem [19:51] <NiGHTS> I think, SoonerGrf, that it was finishing his relationship with Ginny !!! [19:51] <Aislinn> welcome back Kimmy smile [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> aislinn--that is why i buy new ones [19:51] <harryfreak359> Yes, I agree Aislinn [19:51] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it was when he decided to Spare Peter [19:51] <Aislinn> I think that Harry's choice to save Peter was a very moral act [19:51] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, sooner. [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> sparing Peter, I think [19:51] <dancerintheroom> I agree...saving peter [19:51] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [19:51] <adamgryff> sparing Peter, I agree [19:51] <fawkes28> oh yes, i agree with you, aislinn [19:51] <PerfectlyMMAD> I agree Sonner, but yet that afected the whole sirius thing [19:51] <futureweasley> yes PP, that was the best [19:51] <divaleder> sparing peter was a good thing [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> and saving Sirius [19:51] <KimmyBlair> i think it was more about saving Sirius and Remus from being guilty, than saving peter [19:51] <NiGHTS> Both are examples of his willingness 2 sacrifice in a way [19:51] <Aislinn> yes Prongs [19:51] <Amontillada> I agree, sparing Peter was his most moral choice [19:51] <futureweasley> I was just typing saving Sirius [19:52] <fawkes28> that would have been a hard decision for a lot of people [19:52] <divaleder> don't forget though that he did a moral thing by feeding dd the potion in the cave [19:52] <MrMcGonagall> It had a number of ethical ramifications. [19:52] <Aislinn> it was more about that Kimmy, you're right [19:52] <ProngsPatronus> lol [19:52] <divaleder> in the end that choice will save many, many people. [19:52] <SoonerGryffindor> we dont know for sure about that divaleder [19:52] <Aislinn> but that was based on a belief system that killing is wrong [19:52] <dancerintheroom> Yes kimmy, but isn't that also an ethical thing to do? [19:52] <KimmyBlair> yeah [19:52] <divaleder> harry was also following orders and rules of his headmaster int he cave [19:52] <KimmyBlair> i'm not saying it isn't Dancer [19:52] <NiGHTS> I just keep worrying that he'll have 2 make 1 final sacrifice [19:52] <Islwyn13> sorry, phone... [19:52] <Islwyn13> where are we now? [19:53] <Aislinn> we're talking about Harry's most ethical act [19:53] <Islwyn13> ok, most ethical...another tough one... [19:53] <divaleder> do any of you know the true definition of a hero? [19:53] <Amontillada> Right, Aislinn--he was saving Sirius and Remus from doing something that would have been deeply unethical [19:53] <Aislinn> exactly amontillada [19:53] <Belenzie> keeping Neville's secret [19:53] <Islwyn13> that's a big one [19:53] <Belenzie> helping Cedric [19:53] <ProngsPatronus> yes, that's a good one, too [19:53] <Islwyn13> but I don't know if it's his BIGGEST one [19:53] <Islwyn13> risking himself to save Sirius was one... [19:54] <dancerintheroom> Cedric, thats a good one [19:54] <Islwyn13> even though Sirius turned out not to be in daner [19:54] <divaleder> my ancient literature prof said that a hero was someone who went on a quest for something that when he brought it back would help his people [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> maybe his biggest one is yet to come [19:54] <divaleder> that's harry and his ethics [19:54] <PerfectlyMMAD> a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage [19:54] <NiGHTS> I'm coming round 2 saving Peter ... that has GOT 2 play out in a big way in the final book [19:54] <PerfectlyMMAD> a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage [19:54] <Islwyn13> true, Prongs [19:54] <Aislinn> I think it is Prongs [19:54] <Belenzie> it has to be one Harry thought out and not onw he did on a whim i think the sirius one was on a whim [19:54] <KimmyBlair> ohhh good one prongs [19:54] <dancerintheroom> I hope so Prongs [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> me, too [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> I disagree, belenzie [19:55] <SoonerGryffindor> uh, MMAD? Lets stay on topic, okay? [19:55] <Islwyn13> that's a point... [19:55] <KimmyBlair> i think perhals the desicision not to harm the dursley's has been perhaps his most moral descission [19:55] <PerfectlyMMAD> sorry [19:55] <Islwyn13> but it was an instictively ethical decision [19:55] *** dillypoo has joined #lounge [19:55] <Belenzie> ohhh good Kim [19:55] <KimmyBlair> they have treated him horribly and he has not gotten back at them in any way [19:55] <Islwyn13> when was that? [19:55] *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [19:55] <MrMcGonagall> I'm amazed Harry's sense of ethics is so high, considering he lived with the Dursleys. [19:55] <futureweasley> Harry's ethics are skewed a little, because his rolemodels have made it clear that some rulebreaking is okay... [19:55] <Islwyn13> except for blowing up his aunt and threatening them with Sirius smile [19:55] <Aislinn> hi expie! [19:55] <dancerintheroom> Well...he blew up marge [19:55] <fawkes28> good point, kimmy [19:55] <futureweasley> hi Expie [19:55] <adamgryff> hi expie [19:55] <harryfreak359> hi expie! [19:55] <KimmyBlair> Me too MrMcG [19:55] <ProngsPatronus> well, they have certainly showed him what NOT to do [19:55] <PerfectlyMMAD> true, Future [19:56] <fawkes28> he could have used his power against the dursleys [19:56] <NiGHTS> WOuld he have ever harmed them seriously though, I imagine he might have played a joke if he could but I doubt very much he would have hurt them [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome Expie [19:56] <Islwyn13> Heya, Expie! [19:56] <KimmyBlair> but he hasn't actually done anything [19:56] <Expelliarmas> heya, peepers [19:56] <dancerintheroom> And there was that whole thing at the zoo...but I guess those don'e count. They were not intentional [19:56] <MrMcGonagall> True, the via negativa of the Dursleys. [19:56] <KimmyBlair> (intenionally) [19:56] <Belenzie> about saving gabrielle eventhough cedric told him fleur was coming?/ [19:56] <NiGHTS> Hi Exp [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> What do you think of Dumbledore's ethics? [19:56] <dancerintheroom> sorry, typo [19:56] <cbm> he has never hurt them permanently [19:56] *** divaleder has quit [Bye] [19:56] <KimmyBlair> I think that dumbledore has his own set of ethics [19:56] <MrMcGonagall> Extremely ethical. [19:56] <KimmyBlair> and morals [19:56] <harryfreak359> well... [19:56] <ProngsPatronus> exactly, mr. mc g [19:56] <dancerintheroom> Outstading. By far the best of anyones we have seen in the series [19:56] <futureweasley> I don't care for DD's ethics...and I am probably the only one in the bunch that feels that way [19:56] <Aislinn> I think Dumbledore has a highly developed ethical standard [19:56] <PerfectlyMMAD> He always means good, but sometimes he causes alittle caous [19:56] <cbm> Trust is VERY important [19:56] <Islwyn13> you don't have to hurt somone permanently to have done something unethical, though [19:56] <Belenzie> i think Dumbledore was misguided old fuddyduddy [19:57] <SoonerGryffindor> so giving Hary the cloak was ethical? [19:57] <harryfreak359> definitely has his own [19:57] <Aislinn> I greatly admire his ethics [19:57] <KimmyBlair> i agree to some extent Belenzie [19:57] <Islwyn13> DD is another one that has good motives, but sometimes makes mistakes [19:57] <MrMcGonagall> He values honor and doing the right thing by people. [19:57] <Amontillada> Dumbledore's ethics are both strong and deep--deeper than conventional surface appearance, at times [19:57] <NiGHTS> I think Dumbledore is interesting Sooner Grf, he is essentially extremely gd but he is certainly willing to twist rules [19:57] <Expelliarmas> what's the pending question, please? [19:57] <Aislinn> we'll get there sooner [19:57] <Islwyn13> ultimately, his heart's in teh right place, I think [19:57] <SoonerGryffindor> What do you think of Dumbledore's ethics? [19:57] <harryfreak359> but I don't know if I agree with them all [19:57] <KimmyBlair> i think he was a bit out of touch [19:57] <Belenzie> he chooses when to and when not to follow his own ethics [19:57] <KimmyBlair> but he had a good moral ground [19:57] <adamgryff> I think dd is ethical and he follows them [19:57] <futureweasley> I don't think that giving the invisibility cloak is ethical at all [19:57] <futureweasley> I hate that DD gave it to him [19:57] <ProngsPatronus> why, FW? [19:57] <Aislinn> I think he always follows his own ethical system, it just doesn't match the ministry's [19:57] <Islwyn13> I don't think that realy falls into an ethical question... [19:57] <KimmyBlair> why would he not [19:57] <dillypoo> i think dd likes to set up situations and let them play out [19:57] <NiGHTS> I think Dumbledore has seen sooooo much of life that his ethics and reasoning are not always immediately apparent [19:58] <KimmyBlair> he was doing what his father wanted... [19:58] <adamgryff> why future, it was his fathers cloak [19:58] <Islwyn13> it belonged to Harry, it was returned to him [19:58] <harryfreak359> it belonged to his father, Future, it was supposed to be his [19:58] <KimmyBlair> that is ethical [19:58] <MrMcGonagall> I think DD is very good at discerning and following the spirit rather than the letter of the law. [19:58] <KimmyBlair> keeping it from harry would of been unethical [19:58] <PerfectlyMMAD> Giving harry the cloak, probably not the best choice he made, but it did have a purpose,a and utimatly was good [19:58] <SoonerGryffindor> I htink it is interesting that he was willing to set aside some of his ethics out of his love for Harry [19:58] <NiGHTS> Do U not think in the 1st book that he essentially let Harry face Voldemort? [19:58] <futureweasley> I don't really know how to put it without getting slammed horribly [19:58] <Islwyn13> DD allowed Harry the opportunity to choose [19:58] * futureweasley is gunsky [19:58] <KimmyBlair> i agree sooner [19:58] <fawkes28> i think dumbledore is wise enough to know when it is important not to follow the rules [19:58] <futureweasley> *gunshy [19:58] <ProngsPatronus> I would really like to know [19:58] <Islwyn13> we only slam the people we love, Future smile [19:58] <MrMcGonagall> Just throw it out there, future. [19:58] * Islwyn13 hugs FW [19:58] <futureweasley> lol Islwyn [19:58] <KimmyBlair> aww! [19:58] <KimmyBlair> we won't hurt you Future! [19:58] <NiGHTS> I like that Islwyn, he does let ppl make their own way & choices [19:59] * harryfreak359 also hugs Future [19:59] * KimmyBlair hands gutureweasley cookies and hot coco [19:59] <KimmyBlair> oops i can't spell [19:59] <harryfreak359> lol [19:59] <futureweasley> I think that being "sneaky" is dishonorable...and any action that lacks honor is unethical [19:59] <Islwyn13> see? WE love you! so spit it out! [19:59] * SoonerGryffindor promises not to use the steel toed boots on future [19:59] <SoonerGryffindor> now noogies are another mattter..... [19:59] <KimmyBlair> i think that disucssion adnd disagreement make the oloung great [19:59] <harryfreak359> lol [19:59] <fawkes28> anyway, back to the question... [19:59] <Islwyn13> you can't think of any circumstances where you would have to be sneaky? [19:59] <PerfectlyMMAD> Well you do have a good point [19:59] <harryfreak359> I don't see anything wrong with being sneaky [19:59] <NiGHTS> Yeah ... if it leads 2 a greater good [19:59] <KimmyBlair> what about when the cloak helped harry stay safe? [19:59] <ProngsPatronus> ah--OK--I understand [19:59] <harryfreak359> in some circumstances [19:59] <KimmyBlair> such as when they were up on the tower... [20:00] <dancerintheroom> No...I think there are soome where Harry needs to be sneaky [20:00] <futureweasley> I think back to Norbert... [20:00] <NiGHTS> Sneaking out of Hogsmead 2 the cave ... [20:00] <dancerintheroom> Such as anytime Umbridge is near, or when he is eluding the ministry [20:00] <Expelliarmas> Dumbledore has a bigger objective in mind when it comes to Harry; that goal is the one which directs his actions. [20:00] <Islwyn13> if someone is being furtive, planning an evil act, and you have to be sneaky to discover what they're up to, I think that's a good thing [20:00] <AmandaB> I think DD cares deeply about the ultimate good, which is destroying evil. And he recognizes that sometimes he'll have to make not so nice decisions to achieve that. [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> FW, can I ask you a question? [20:00] <Islwyn13> you do what you ahve to do [20:00] <SoonerGryffindor> I htink it is dangerous to make blanket assumptions about anything though. There needs to be some latitude to adjust to the situation [20:00] <Aislinn> I think that giving the cloak to Harry was giving him an important tool in his battle against Lord voldemort [20:00] <Islwyn13> within reason, of ocoruse [20:00] <futureweasley> go for it PP [20:00] *** Belenzie has quit [Bye] [20:00] <NiGHTS> There are always gonna B circumstances where being sneaky "is" acceptable [20:00] <Aislinn> they are in a war situation, and he needs tools for the battle [20:00] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [20:00] <cbm> Such as sneaking into a cave to get a horcrux [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> what exactly was Dumbledore's life purpose [20:01] <Islwyn13> I hesitate to bring this up, but Snape is being sneaky (if you believe he's working for the good guys) [20:01] <KimmyBlair> that is true Aislinn [20:01] <Islwyn13> he's spying on LV [20:01] <KimmyBlair> war time and peace time have very different rules [20:01] <Islwyn13> that's a good thing [20:01] <SoonerGryffindor> that is a good question Prongs [20:01] <futureweasley> oh, PP...that's a totally different CB discussion [20:01] <futureweasley> but I appreciate where you are going with this [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> no--this is an exact question [20:01] <SoonerGryffindor> not if it helps answer this [20:01] <NiGHTS> So much of what Dumbledore has done (that seems less than ethical) is really about protecting ppl [20:01] <Aislinn> being a spy is the epitome of "sneaky" yes, islwyn [20:01] <Islwyn13> DD wanted to keep people safe [20:02] <Islwyn13> and not always bad [20:02] <futureweasley> DD's whole life's purpose (as it has been presented to us) is to arm Harry with the tools necessary to defeat LV [20:02] <dancerintheroom> I don't think anyone has one life purpose [20:02] <Islwyn13> to be sneaky [20:02] <Islwyn13> sometimes, it's necessary [20:02] <PerfectlyMMAD> To love and be loved. [20:02] <Aislinn> exactly future [20:02] <fawkes28> you are right, nights [20:02] <Islwyn13> the DA was also teh epitome of "sneaky" [20:02] <KimmyBlair> ohh good point Islwyn [20:02] <Aislinn> and in order to do that, he has to make difficult choices [20:02] <dancerintheroom> true Islwyn [20:02] <Aislinn> what is for the greater good? [20:02] <fawkes28> but yet, islwyn i think it was still ethical [20:02] <ProngsPatronus> Dumbledore wanted to vanquish the greatest evil he had ever known--and correct his own mistake in so doing [20:02] <Amontillada> To protect people, and since LV appeared, he's concentrated that on fighting LV [20:02] <NiGHTS> ***likes Aislinn's way of thinking !!!*** [20:02] <Islwyn13> the DA was totally ethical, I agree! [20:02] <PerfectlyMMAD> PP that was awesome [20:03] <Expelliarmas> DD recognizes the MoM is not at the forefront of the struggle against LV; they are too disorganized for that [20:03] <dillypoo> how is being sneaky amoral? there's also a difference between being sneaky and discreet [20:03] <Islwyn13> Umbridge was doing them a disservice, and they fought against it [20:03] <dancerintheroom> By his own mistake are you refering to introducing riddle into the magical world, prongs? [20:03] <Aislinn> good question dillypoo [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> what are his tool s for this? [20:03] <Islwyn13> I think DD was trying to give Tom teh chance to choose rightly [20:03] *** Belenzie has joined #lounge [20:03] <ProngsPatronus> yes [20:03] <NiGHTS> ADMINISTRATORS ... Can I ask a question? [20:03] <Islwyn13> it was an ethical choice, but may have been poorly executed [20:03] <SoonerGryffindor> wb Bel [20:03] <SoonerGryffindor> what is it nights? [20:03] <Belenzie> thnx [20:03] <Islwyn13> he didn't keep enough control over Tom [20:03] <Islwyn13> the situation got away from him [20:04] <PerfectlyMMAD> I don't really think that being sbeaky is immoarl. it's more of a 'what are you being sneaky for' for? [20:04] <Islwyn13> but that doesn't make what DD did unethical, I don't htink [20:04] <Aislinn> It wasn't his situation islwyn [20:04] <fawkes28> right and it was a mistake on his part but i think he was trying to do the ethical thing [20:04] <futureweasley> I am the first to admit that I am a First-Class rule-breaker. Is it wrong to want to hold "heroes" to a higher standard? [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> actually--he didn't neutralise tom when he knew what tom had become [20:04] <NiGHTS> Do we think Harry will go back 2 either the unlockable room or the Death Chamber at the MoM [20:04] <Aislinn> Dumbledore believes most strongly in personal choice [20:04] <Belenzie> he let the control over him go before he even had a grasp on it [20:04] <Islwyn13> yes, he does [20:04] <Aislinn> he offers opportunities to choose right [20:04] <Expelliarmas> How would anyone control Tom Riddle? He hadn't done anything which could be traced back to him. [20:04] <SoonerGryffindor> not for this topic Nights [20:04] <dillypoo> dd doesn't exert control over people...he provides environments that allow people ot make choices [20:04] <Aislinn> but can't and won't control other's choices [20:04] <Islwyn13> but when someone's personal choice starts to infringe on another's right to choose, you have a problem [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> I really want to keep this on topic--all apologies to the mods [20:04] <NiGHTS> Ok ... no worries ... just wondered [20:04] <Islwyn13> that's what LV does [20:04] <fawkes28> we shouldn't hold them to higher standards, but we do future [20:05] <Aislinn> that's ok prongs, its related stuff smile [20:05] <SoonerGryffindor> np Prongs [20:05] <Expelliarmas> That's what LV does after he leaves Hogwarts, Islwyn, while he's there no one knows what he's up to [20:05] <ProngsPatronus> well, I have a point to make [20:05] <Islwyn13> that's the mistake, though, Expie [20:05] *** PerfectlyMMAD left #lounge [] [20:05] <Islwyn13> DD knew Tom was cruel...he'd been cruel at teh orphanage... [20:05] <ProngsPatronus> and I type slowly! [20:05] <fawkes28> dumbledore cannot hold people's hands because they need to make their own decisions [20:05] <Islwyn13> for teh protection of others, I think Tom should have been watched more closely [20:05] <fawkes28> he can only guide them and take them so far [20:05] <Expelliarmas> Once TR left the orphanage, no one was able to trace any wrongdoing back to him at Hogwarts [20:05] *** dancerintheroom left #lounge [] [20:05] <Islwyn13> Tom was hanging bunnies and torturing children... [20:05] <Islwyn13> hold his hand, please! [20:06] <fawkes28> lol [20:06] <Belenzie> but he told him what was what and gave him the choice to change- tom didn't he just hid it better [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> FW--dumbledore had the Prophecy [20:06] <NiGHTS> I think Bk 7 will play out showing that much of who we are is down to our choices, Harry's & LV's have been difficult but they have taken extremely diff paths based on those choices [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> a small, damaged, bot, and hope [20:06] <ProngsPatronus> boy, even [20:06] <Islwyn13> yes, but could they not trace his wrongdoings better if they had been watching him more closely [20:06] <harryfreak359> I don't think it would have made a difference tough, really Islwyn, if he was watched more...it might have made him worse [20:06] <Expelliarmas> all the other teachers loved Tom Riddle; DD did keep a close eye on him, however [20:06] <Aislinn> I think he was watched quite closely islwyn [20:06] <Islwyn13> possibly [20:06] <dillypoo> what would they have done to young tom? [20:06] <Islwyn13> yo uthink DD knew he went to murder his parents? [20:06] <Islwyn13> sorry, his father? [20:07] <Aislinn> but he was an incredibly skilled student - what more would you have had DD do? [20:07] <Belenzie> that would have been bad faith though and could have done more damage [20:07] <NiGHTS> Tom had a terrible upbringing but let's face it: he "decided" to become who he became [20:07] <Expelliarmas> DD had no idea until many years later [20:07] <fawkes28> i still think that dumbledore could have made more of a difference with tom [20:07] <NiGHTS> no-one forced him [20:07] <cbm> I think he moral were set by the time he came to hogwarts [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> I would ahve put him in Azkaban [20:07] <Islwyn13> that's the failure I see...DD didn't know... [20:07] <Aislinn> I don't think that DD is omniscient, and I don't think he's responsible for LV's choices in life [20:07] <Expelliarmas> TR would only have paid lip service to what DD was trying to teach [20:07] <harryfreak359> For what Prongs? [20:07] <Islwyn13> I think he could have watched more carefully [20:07] <dillypoo> for hanging a bunny? [20:07] <fawkes28> but i think he didnt want to overstep his teacher/student line [20:07] <ProngsPatronus> for murder [20:07] <Aislinn> how could he have, fawkes? [20:07] <Islwyn13> no, he's not at all responsible for Tom's choices [20:07] <harryfreak359> Everyone thought he was a perfect student [20:07] <fawkes28> i think he could have taken a mentor role with tom [20:08] <Amontillada> When would you have put him in Azkaban for murder, Prongs? [20:08] <Aislinn> he wasn't in DD's house - what opportunity did he have [20:08] <Expelliarmas> everyone except DD, hf [20:08] <Islwyn13> as I said, I think DD made the correct moral choice to let Tom choose for himself, but he let the situation get out of control [20:08] <MrMcGonagall> Tom Riddle never really had any sense of ethics. [20:08] <NiGHTS> & remember, he was not headmaster at the time, his ability to keep an eye on Tom would have been muc more limited [20:08] <Aislinn> only if Tom accepted him as mentor [20:08] <Islwyn13> DD watches Harry outside of Hogwarts... [20:08] <Expelliarmas> TR did not want to be mentored, and certainly not by DD [20:08] <fawkes28> dumbledore seems to have been very stand-offish with tom even if he was watching him from afar [20:08] <cbm> DD made mistakes, TR was one of them [20:08] <Islwyn13> that's true, Nights... [20:08] *** MidnightPhoenix has joined #lounge [20:08] <fawkes28> but dumbledore was a lot more powerful than tom was [20:08] <Expelliarmas> that's true Nights [20:08] <harryfreak359> yeah, but did DD have proof though..it would have been impossible to lock him up [20:08] <Islwyn13> maybe DD was followiing the rules set out by the then headmaster? [20:08] <harryfreak359> hi midnight! [20:08] <ProngsPatronus> when Tom came back with the ring [20:08] <Islwyn13> perhaps a mistake? [20:08] <Aislinn> I don't think that DD could have done anything that would have changed the outcome with Tom [20:09] <NiGHTS> As headmaster, DD has been able to keep an eye on Harry, but as a teacher, it would have been much harder to watch Tom [20:09] <futureweasley> PP, I do see what you are saying...but I have to say that DD was downright wrong about a lot of things. And, teaching Harry to disregard the rules because "instincts" could be more harmful in the long run [20:09] <MidnightPhoenix> hi [20:09] <fawkes28> i guess we'll never know [20:09] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [20:09] <MrMcGonagall> Where'd you get the ring, Tom? [20:09] <Aislinn> what does power have to do with it? [20:09] <Amontillada> I don't think DD put the pieces together of all Tom had done until years later [20:09] <Islwyn13> but he may have realized sooner that Tom was making very wrong decisions... [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> I would ahve gonne to the Ministry, perhaps [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> to Moody [20:09] <Islwyn13> he did, after all, kill his fatehr and grandparents [20:09] <cbm> agreed, the best he could of done is leave him at the orphanage untrained [20:09] <Islwyn13> and got away with it [20:09] <Aislinn> look at Harry's results though FW [20:09] <Expelliarmas> DD had bigger lessons to teach Harry, fw; Harry, for all intents and purposes, was getting combat training [20:09] <Islwyn13> I don't know what DD could have done differently, but I think he sometimes lets things get away from him [20:09] <fawkes28> dumbledore was the adult and could have used the power to help tom [20:09] <Islwyn13> with the best of intentions, but there it is [20:09] <Aislinn> if he had just followed the rules all through school, would he have accomplished all that he has? [20:09] <ProngsPatronus> I do understand, FW--but I also understand what you say about honour [20:09] <NiGHTS> & Tom "really" fell into the dark arts after Hogwarts (perhaps via Grindelwald) [20:09] <Aislinn> right expie [20:09] <Expelliarmas> as were Ron and Hermione to a lesser extent [20:10] <SoonerGryffindor> What do you think of McGonagall's ethics? [20:10] <Islwyn13> he was looking into Horcruxes while in school [20:10] <Islwyn13> he was already going to teh dark side, very early on [20:10] <ProngsPatronus> and there is an honour that has nothing to do with rules, and everything to do with honing the tool to its sharpest edge [20:10] <SoonerGryffindor> now there is a rule follower if I have ever seen one [20:10] <Aislinn> I think it is placing an unrealistic expectation on DD to think he could have changed the situation with tom [20:10] <Expelliarmas> McG is too much of a rule follower at times [20:10] <MrMcGonagall> Squee! I love McG and her ethics. [20:10] <futureweasley> McGonagall is fair [20:10] <Islwyn13> We don't really know enough about McG, do we? [20:10] <Islwyn13> what we know, I respect [20:10] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Mr M [20:10] <Aislinn> agreeed Prongs [20:10] <fawkes28> she was definitely a stickler for the rules [20:10] <Islwyn13> perhaps...I don' tknow, Aislinn [20:10] <MrMcGonagall> Rules are rules, Potter. [20:11] <futureweasley> though she has also broken rules...someone I love recently pointed out to me that she's never been unfair [20:11] <Aislinn> I think she is someone who feels very strongly about holding to an ethical standard [20:11] <fawkes28> and she did her best to treat harry just like any other student [20:11] <Islwyn13> agreed [20:11] *** MidnightPhoenix has quit [Bye] [20:11] <Expelliarmas> she seems to wear a straighjacket of rules; unless it comes to Umbridge, then she follows the rules to the letter [20:11] <NiGHTS> I think McGonagall is a very typical British School Ma'am !!! She has a real "stiff upper lip" mentality, but is really a bif siftie at heart [20:11] <SoonerGryffindor> yet she is wiling to break the rules from time to time [20:11] <MrMcGonagall> Her inclination is to follow the rules, but she knows how to bend them, too. [20:11] *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [20:11] <NiGHTS> big softie* [20:11] <Amontillada> McGonagall is very, VERY ethical, but she has to think through the circumstances and "pros and cons," while Dumbledore responded intuitively [20:11] <ProngsPatronus> I love McGonagall--she has an extremely fine sense of fairness, and a delicate touch on the business end of the moral whip [20:11] <Expelliarmas> "it unscrews to the right" [20:11] <adamgryff> agree Mr McG [20:12] <fawkes28> yes, expie, umbridge did throw her off track [20:12] <Islwyn13> oh, good point, Amontillada, I agree [20:12] <Aislinn> nicely put prongs [20:12] <SoonerGryffindor> like giving Harry tghe brromstick? [20:12] <Islwyn13> lol, Expie! [20:12] <Islwyn13> such a great line of McG's! [20:12] <SoonerGryffindor> she definitely broke the rules on that one [20:12] <fawkes28> but even though mcgonagall didn't follow umbridge's rules, i think she was highly ethical [20:12] <Aislinn> good example sooner [20:12] <Islwyn13> that and loaning her cane to Peeves to beat Umbridge off the premises smile [20:12] <futureweasley> I think she's got ethics AND humor...which is a tricky combo at times [20:12] <fawkes28> following umbridge's rules would have been unethical for her [20:12] <Aislinn> yes it would have been fawkes [20:12] <Islwyn13> yes, I agree [20:12] <adamgryff> agreed fawkes [20:12] <MrMcGonagall> She sometimes bends (or breaks the rules) according to her loyalties. She was ready to go to the mat for DD in OotP. [20:13] *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [20:13] <futureweasley> hi CD [20:13] <fawkes28> hi carpe [20:13] *** freyja has joined #lounge [20:13] <fawkes28> hi freyja [20:13] <CarpeDiem> Good evening! [20:13] <Aislinn> hi carpe, freyja [20:13] <adamgryff> hi carpe, freyja [20:13] <freyja> greetings [20:13] <Amontillada> McG broke the rules on the broomstick, Sooner, but on the other hand, Harry had never had the opportunity to get a broom that many young wizards have [20:13] <Islwyn13> gone for one sec... [20:13] <Expelliarmas> she even defended Hagrid [20:13] <NiGHTS> I've had McGonagall-type teachers; she's archetypically of an older generation, she most values those things that make a person good [20:13] <Aislinn> she was Mr M [20:13] <futureweasley> hi freyja [20:13] <ProngsPatronus> she follows her faith--and her faith lies in Dumbledore [20:13] <NiGHTS> fairness, honesty, justice ect [20:13] <Aislinn> I think because she greatly respects him [20:13] <MrMcGonagall> Gryffindor, through and through. [20:14] <Expelliarmas> when she sees the MoM has distorted the rules, is she still obliged to follow those rules? [20:14] <NiGHTS> Yeah, & def bravery !!! [20:14] <SoonerGryffindor> true, amontillada, but it was still breaking rules. Dont get me wrong, I love that she did it [20:14] <fawkes28> but rules are just rules [20:14] <Aislinn> I think it would be unethical to do so, expie [20:14] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [20:14] <fawkes28> wb, hf [20:14] <NiGHTS> one of my fave bits is when she tells Peeves "It unscrews the other way" [20:14] <NiGHTS> lol [20:14] <MrMcGonagall> She works within the rules as far as she can, but even McG has her breaking point. [20:14] <ProngsPatronus> I am not surte what you mean by that [20:15] *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [20:15] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [20:15] <ProngsPatronus> civil disobedience? [20:15] <Amontillada> The broom situation is one where the pros and cons are very close together, a difficult measurement [20:15] *** AmandaB has quit [Bye] [20:15] <dillypoo> sorry...phone call...what are discussing now? [20:15] <futureweasley> well, in the case of Umbridge (one of 2 times we see McGonagall lose it a little), Umbridge was downright wrong, and acting as a "dictator" vs. a democracy [20:15] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, and this is when she chooses to break the rules, which is interesting [20:15] <Aislinn> who are you asking prongs? [20:15] <ProngsPatronus> that is an exception to the rules--which is allowed, as it had been 100 years earlier [20:15] <Expelliarmas> I don't see that giving harry a broom was a challenge to her ethics; sometimes, a gift is just that, a gift [20:15] <SoonerGryffindor> we are talling about M McGonalgalls ethics, dilly [20:15] <harryfreak359> whoops, I moved...and my computer went funny...what is the current question? [20:15] <dillypoo> another calll [20:15] <SoonerGryffindor> and I cant spell [20:15] <harryfreak359> oh nevermind [20:15] <harryfreak359> biggrin [20:16] <futureweasley> Expie...first years were to NOT have a broom [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> well, there are institutional rules, and there are the rules of the mystic' [20:16] <Aislinn> we're still talking about McGonagall's ethics harryfreak [20:16] <futureweasley> that's "rule breaking"...gift or not [20:16] <Belenzie> well it was for their own safety [20:16] <Expelliarmas> FW, how would he play on the quidditch team without one? [20:16] <NiGHTS> I think all the teachers at Hogwarts have a sense of responsibility and commitment to Hogwarts, first and foremost [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> mystics and institutions don't get along--natural enemies [20:16] <MrMcGonagall> I'm sure a dispensation can be granted, considering he's on the team. [20:16] <futureweasley> a house broom? [20:16] <Expelliarmas> McG got permission to give him the broom [20:16] <fawkes28> there are insitutional rules but what happens when the institution is not ethical?? [20:16] <CarpeDiem> I wonder how recent a rule the broom thing was. Hadn't there been first year seekers in the past? [20:16] <Islwyn13> Unless DD allowed the broomstick... [20:16] <SoonerGryffindor> not for 100 years [20:16] <Aislinn> the rules are established in this case by the Headmaster, no? [20:16] <Islwyn13> changed the rule for Harry [20:16] <ProngsPatronus> because institutions make rules primarily to keep themselves in business [20:16] <Belenzie> a century prior [20:17] <ProngsPatronus> mystics do not operate in that fashion [20:17] <Aislinn> so if the Headmaster says its ok for him to play on the team, then it is ok for him to have a broom [20:17] <SoonerGryffindor> but then that would be DD changing the rules to suit Harry again [20:17] <Aislinn> and there is no rule breaking involved [20:17] <Expelliarmas> it's not like McG went ahead and did it on her own; even Flitwick knew about the "special circumstances" [20:17] <Amontillada> The Headmaster probably established that rule because so many first-years had been hurt riding on brooms [20:17] <dillypoo> rules are made to be broken [20:17] *** HPotterExpert2 has quit [Bye] [20:17] <Islwyn13> that's my thought, Aislinn, yes [20:17] <MrMcGonagall> I think it's partly the difference between merely human and true moral law. [20:17] <fawkes28> yes but some people resented that dumbledore made that exception or broke the rule [20:17] <Expelliarmas> no rule as to the broom was broken [20:17] <Aislinn> it is using the rules judiciously and logically [20:17] <NiGHTS> The rule was implemented as 1st yrs would not have necessaey skills but Harry obviously did so en exception was made ... changed a rule, not broke a law after all [20:17] <NiGHTS> oops@spelling ! [20:17] <dillypoo> stoopid phone... [20:17] <Expelliarmas> only a select group of people resented it ... all slytherins [20:17] <Aislinn> there is such a thing as the intent behind rules, and then the letter of those rules [20:18] <Islwyn13> there was a rule in the letter from Hogwarts tahts said, "first years are not allowed a broom" [20:18] <fawkes28> but harry was still made to be an exception so he was at least bending the rules [20:18] <Aislinn> the intent is much more important than the letter [20:18] <ProngsPatronus> Minerva went through the system to change the cirrcumstances [20:18] <Islwyn13> so the rule was either broken, or changed for Harry's sake [20:18] <Amontillada> Exactly, Nights--Harry had shown that he was a natural on a broom, not likely to be injured [20:18] <fawkes28> which is why some people resent harry [20:18] <futureweasley> however, if the rule was changed for one, why not for all? [20:18] <Aislinn> if the intent was to protect kids who were not yet good enough flyers, then that doesn't apply to Harry [20:18] <Expelliarmas> rules, like laws, are meant to be applied in a reasonable manner--absolutes simply do not work in any society [20:18] <ProngsPatronus> I am sure the Ministry would have had to have had its say in the matter [20:18] <NiGHTS> but rules can be changed, that is the essential diff between rules and laws [20:18] <futureweasley> where's the fairness in that? [20:18] <SoonerGryffindor> I can see that actually, that he would be resented for it [20:18] * Expelliarmas feels like she's a work [20:18] <Islwyn13> because it depends on the circumstances [20:18] <MrMcGonagall> there are exceptions from manmade laws, but not moral laws. [20:18] <Aislinn> exactly expie [20:18] <fawkes28> because rules are constantly being broken for his sake...how is that ethical?? [20:18] <Islwyn13> I agree, Expie [20:18] <Aislinn> constantly fawkes? [20:18] <SoonerGryffindor> hear hear Expie. I totally agree with that [20:19] <ProngsPatronus> why does it have to be fair? [20:19] <Islwyn13> Harry truly is a special case [20:19] <dillypoo> i give up...phone won't stop ringing...see you in the reading group [20:19] <Aislinn> I don't see a constant string of rules broken for him [20:19] <Belenzie> well if they wanted to use the school brooms they would hve had to ask madam hooch so she would be able to judge what 1st yrs were able to fly well, but if they brought their own then they could fly when ever they wanted without the proper supervision [20:19] *** dillypoo has quit [Bye] [20:19] <Islwyn13> later, dilly! [20:19] <fawkes28> i would say in all of the books yes [20:19] <SoonerGryffindor> I love Harry to death, but I have to admit that a lot of rules to get broken for him [20:19] <Expelliarmas> even moral laws, like not committing murder, have exceptions, i.e., self defense [20:19] <Amontillada> I need to go. Speaking of ethics, I can [20:19] <Amontillada> can' [20:19] <Islwyn13> DD knew Harry was going to have to grow up much faster thanmost kids... [20:19] <NiGHTS> He's living ina world where rules are ignoredfor him all the time, often leading to great danger for him, you'd have to expect him to "bend" a few back [20:19] <Amontillada> can't leave someone standing outside in the cold [20:19] <fawkes28> yes, sooner! [20:19] <Islwyn13> I think the rules were broken to allow him teh chance to do that [20:19] <Aislinn> bye amontillada [20:20] <ProngsPatronus> e people may be equal under the law, but to be completely fair, there would be no special classes for anyone [20:20] <SoonerGryffindor> lol amontillada [20:20] <SoonerGryffindor> bye [20:20] <futureweasley> I mean, let's make NEW rules whenever it involves Harry...but let's let all of his peers stick to the old rules [20:20] <Expelliarmas> Harry is in danger by simply existing--he has to have his experiences condensed as quickly as possible if he is to be prepared for what is coming [20:20] <Islwyn13> I agree with Expie, though, you can't apply rules or laws absolutely [20:20] <freyja> is it possible that the allowance for harry was made on aristotelian (sp?) ethical terms? that harry is meant to fly, therefore, it would be against the good to keep him from doing that? [20:20] <Islwyn13> you MUST look at circumstances [20:20] <Aislinn> that's a bit of an overstatement fw [20:20] <Islwyn13> yes, Expie, I totally agree [20:20] <fawkes28> but harry is not the only one in danger [20:20] *** gryffindelle has joined #lounge [20:20] <Belenzie> hah freyja i like that!! [20:20] <freyja> Therefore necessitating a change in the "rules" which are based on the good for the pedestrian student [20:20] <Expelliarmas> yes, Islwyn, the standard is the totality of the circumstances [20:21] <Aislinn> he is being targeted more than anyone else fawkes [20:21] <NiGHTS> we're not talking about equal opportunities for all here though, we're talking about Harry's survival, of course DD (& poss others) are going to be more lenient with him ... he needs every break he can get [20:21] <Islwyn13> and is capable of more than most of his peers [20:21] <Aislinn> yes, freyja - exactly! [20:21] <Expelliarmas> does any other person in the wizarding community bear the weight and expectations of Harry? [20:21] <futureweasley> I don't really think it is, Aislinn. Name a rule that was "bent" for Harry that was changed for everyone else at the same time [20:21] <gryffindelle> whats the question? [20:21] <SoonerGryffindor> I think with Harry you have to consider the extenuating circumstances [20:21] <ProngsPatronus> for instance--if you have a child reading on a collegiate level in third grade, why keep them in a third-grade reading group? [20:21] <SoonerGryffindor> right now it is MM's ethics gryffndelle [20:21] <NiGHTS> exactly Sooner Grf [20:21] <Belenzie> gryffindelle long time no see!!1 [20:21] <ProngsPatronus> why is that fair? [20:21] <MrMcGonagall> I shudder to think what would have happened to Ginny if Harry hadn't gone after her in the Chamber. [20:22] <Aislinn> good point prongs [20:22] <gryffindelle> thanks [20:22] <Islwyn13> I think Aislinn was saying that rules are not broken or changed out of ficklness for Harry [20:22] <Expelliarmas> fw, why would anyone else need to have any rules bent for them? DD knows about the prophecy, it's his job to prepare Harry [20:22] <Islwyn13> there is always a reason [20:22] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [20:22] <SoonerGryffindor> thank you for that example Mr M [20:22] <Aislinn> I'll have to think about that one a bit fw, and get back to you smile [20:22] <NiGHTS> I wonder what would have happened to that fragment of LV's soul ... [20:22] <cbm> agreed MrM [20:22] <Aislinn> thanks islwyn [20:22] <futureweasley> looking forward to it [20:22] <Islwyn13> sorry, I keep speaking for you smile [20:22] * gryffindelle is glad to see Belenzie too [20:22] <futureweasley> wink [20:22] <Islwyn13> I hope I was right ;) [20:22] <Aislinn> that is what I meant - I appreciate you clarifying smile [20:22] <ProngsPatronus> look at hermione--the rules were bent for her with the TTm, and just her [20:23] <ProngsPatronus> that we know of [20:23] <Islwyn13> quite true! [20:23] <Islwyn13> good one [20:23] <Aislinn> right prongs [20:23] <Expelliarmas> that's true, P2 [20:23] <futureweasley> one thing about McG and ethics...was the time-turner ethical? [20:23] <ProngsPatronus> Harry didn't get special anything on that [20:23] <Expelliarmas> but then, Hermione is also receiving a form of combat training [20:23] <freyja> in hermione's case, mcg also goes through the proper processes [20:23] <NiGHTS> I think that was again a gd example, Prongs of fact that there are always exceptional circumstances ... that's whay they are rules not laws [20:23] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [20:23] <fawkes28> right but that was one time with hermione [20:23] <Islwyn13> Hermione wanted to learn more than she would have a chance to...the only way to allow it was a TT [20:23] <MrMcGonagall> Ethical, yes, but perhaps not the best idea for any student. Look at poor Hermione at year's end. [20:23] <Islwyn13> so yes, a good decision [20:23] <Aislinn> I think it was FW [20:23] <Expelliarmas> the question though, fw, is what was the objective in allowing Hermione a time turner [20:23] <Islwyn13> give Hermione teh chance to learn as much as she can [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> however--what about Percy--he got 12 OWLS [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> we do not know it was not done for him [20:24] <SoonerGryffindor> What do you think of Lupin's ethics? [20:24] <Aislinn> yeah, I've always wondered how he could do that prongs [20:24] <Islwyn13> I agree, MrM...Hermione took on too much, but she found that out on her own, no one told her... [20:24] <Islwyn13> the beset way to learn is by experience [20:24] <Islwyn13> Lupin is a good character... [20:24] <Islwyn13> he has made some really bad decisions [20:24] <SoonerGryffindor> I love Lupin, but it was dangerous for him to teach [20:24] <NiGHTS> I think Lupin is quite bound by his ethics, it haunts him if he even thinks he has behaved unethically [20:24] <fawkes28> i think that overall lupin is ethical but he definitely makes poor unethical choices at times [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> Lupin has earned his morals and ethics [20:24] <Expelliarmas> oops, must teach a class to my minions, good night folks [20:24] <Islwyn13> that doesn't bother me as much as his not telling DD about Sirius being an animagus [20:24] <Aislinn> bye expie [20:24] <futureweasley> bye Expie [20:24] <ProngsPatronus> night, expie [20:25] <SoonerGryffindor> bye Expie [20:25] <fawkes28> he should have told dumbledore about sirius being a dog [20:25] <adamgryff> questionable at times, but it haunts him deeply [20:25] <Islwyn13> out of personal fear of letting down DD [20:25] *** gryfflepuff has joined #lounge [20:25] <freyja> 'nite [20:25] <NiGHTS> Bye Exp [20:25] *** Expelliarmas left #lounge [] [20:25] <Islwyn13> He made a bad choice for the wrong reasons [20:25] <gryffindelle> night expie [20:25] <futureweasley> yes he should have, fawkes [20:25] <Islwyn13> understandable, but wrong [20:25] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Lupin has his lapses. [20:25] <Aislinn> I think he's made some questionable choices [20:25] <fawkes28> not telling dumbledore that was highly unethical [20:25] <gryffindelle> i think he usually has good ethics [20:25] <SoonerGryffindor> but he did not tell DD about Sirius being an animagus, and he put all the kids in danger by teaching [20:25] <ProngsPatronus> I agree--he should have [20:25] *** KimmyBlair has quit [Bye] [20:25] <NiGHTS> Would that have been ethical though fawkes ... it would have betrayed his best friend [20:25] <CarpeDiem> I think Lupin ignores his morals at times in order to "fit in" with James and the other Marauders [20:25] <Aislinn> I disagree about the teaching sooner [20:25] <fawkes28> no because at this point sirius and lupin werent friends [20:25] <SoonerGryffindor> well, look at the end of the year [20:26] <gryffindelle> i agree cd [20:26] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [20:26] <Aislinn> he and dumbledore considered it carefully, and they made sure that he had the tools needed to perform safely [20:26] <ProngsPatronus> I do think he put the children in danger--but from forgetting his potion [20:26] <Islwyn13> he was being monitored and helped from being a danger to eh students though [20:26] <SoonerGryffindor> he could have killed 3 of his students [20:26] <fawkes28> lupin was putting harry in danger by not telling dumbledore [20:26] <futureweasley> it wouldn't have happened had Snape done his job, Sooner [20:26] <freyja> but perhaps lupin still had some reservations, albeit hidden ones, about Sirius' guilt [20:26] <Islwyn13> all of hte staff knew what he was... [20:26] <Islwyn13> and were watching [20:26] <Islwyn13> I don't think that was unethical [20:26] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape did his job fw [20:26] <Aislinn> right FW! biggrin [20:26] <futureweasley> um, no, he really didn't [20:26] <fawkes28> i agree completely sooner [20:26] <fawkes28> :) [20:26] <Islwyn13> but that's a mistake, not an unethical decision, PP [20:26] <NiGHTS> Only reason he hadn't taken his potion were the exceptional circumstances of that 1 night [20:26] <harryfreak359> don't mess with Snape around sooner [20:26] <futureweasley> he "tweaked" the circumstances [20:26] <Islwyn13> forgetting to take the potion [20:26] <Aislinn> I don't either islwyn [20:27] <fawkes28> in canon, future? [20:27] <gryffindelle> i agree fw [20:27] <nympheart> I think I agree with fw too [20:27] <Islwyn13> No, Snape realized Lupin hadn't had his poition, and went to give it to him [20:27] <futureweasley> it's observable fact, fawkes [20:27] <NiGHTS> OK ... got to go now, off to York tomorrow (that's the original, not the "New" ; ) [20:27] <Islwyn13> ubut LUpin had already gone...hence why Snape followed them to teh shack [20:27] <NiGHTS> G'nite every1 [20:27] <nympheart> he made that up Islwyn [20:27] <Islwyn13> I think Snape did do his job [20:27] <gryffindelle> by nights [20:27] <Aislinn> bye nights [20:28] <Islwyn13> to the bet of his ability [20:28] <nympheart> he just wanted to see what Lupin was up to [20:28] <gryffindelle> *bye [20:28] <ProngsPatronus> bye, nights [20:28] <fawkes28> from your point of view but let's get back to lupin now [20:28] <SoonerGryffindor> okay, whether or not Lupin got his potion that night (which was not Snape;s fault BTW) Lupin withheld crucial info from DD [20:28] <CarpeDiem> I'm sure Lupin knew what he was getting in to. I'm sure he declined DD's offer at first because of the student's saftey. [20:28] <harryfreak359> I think Snape did his job too [20:28] *** NiGHTS has quit [Bye] This post has been edited by futureweasley: Oct 25 2006, 09:08 PM |
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Oct 25 2006, 09:10 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner |
[20:28] <Islwyn13> we've no evidence that he made it up smile
[20:28] <nympheart> he was trying to catch him helping Sirius [20:28] <SoonerGryffindor> bye nights [20:28] <Islwyn13> it may have happened just that way [20:28] <Aislinn> I agree carpe [20:28] <fawkes28> lupin still wasnt ethical in that situation no matter how you look at it [20:28] <Islwyn13> the only reason he knew they were outside was by seeing teh Marauders map in Lupin's office... [20:28] <Islwyn13> I think it makes sense that he was tehre to give Lupin his potion [20:28] <Aislinn> I think that dumbledore talked him into it, just as he arranged for Lupin to be able to attend the school as a child [20:28] <Islwyn13> no reason to lie about it [20:29] <Aislinn> sometimes a calculated risk is a reasonable one, when weighed against all of the circumstances [20:29] <SoonerGryffindor> agreed Aislinn [20:29] <futureweasley> again, a rule that DD bent to suit his own means [20:29] <Aislinn> he didn't bend a rule [20:29] <Islwyn13> or to help Lupin [20:29] <Islwyn13> again, I don't think DD breaks rules on a whim [20:29] <Islwyn13> he has his reasons [20:29] <Aislinn> was there a rule that he wasn't allowed to hire a werewolf? [20:29] <nympheart> he bent the norms of wizarding society [20:29] <ProngsPatronus> so--how do you think this moral failing of his--his desire to be liked, translated into his curse? [20:29] <Islwyn13> and I agree, Aislinn [20:29] <SoonerGryffindor> and I understand the other risks that Lupin took, but I think it was selfish of him onot to mention the animagus stuff [20:29] <Islwyn13> there was no rule forbidding a werewolf from teaching [20:29] <nympheart> it wasn't a written rule, probably, but a rule all the same [20:29] <MrMcGonagall> DD was right to hire Lupin - he was a good and qualified DADA professor. [20:30] <freyja> question: is following rules=being ethical? [20:30] <Aislinn> that's not a rule nymph [20:30] <Aislinn> just a prejudice [20:30] <Islwyn13> that I agree with, Sooner [20:30] <Islwyn13> he did that out of personal fear, and it could have been a disaster [20:30] <Aislinn> we'll get there freyja [20:30] <nympheart> it's a rule of their society [20:30] <nympheart> freyja has a point [20:30] <Islwyn13> no it wasn't [20:30] <adamgryff> it wasn't a rule for lupin to teach, it was discrimination that would have kept him from the post [20:30] <Islwyn13> Umbridge tried to make it so, but I don't think it was ever passed until later [20:30] <freyja> oh...i am just feeling like everyone's definitions are different [20:30] <Islwyn13> I may be wrong [20:30] <Aislinn> right adam [20:30] *** Tanaqui has joined #lounge [20:30] <Aislinn> hi tanaqui [20:30] <fawkes28> lupin also sat by while his friends did some pretty mean things to some people [20:30] <Islwyn13> even if it was a societal rule, was it a just one? [20:31] <gryffindelle> hi tanaqui [20:31] <fawkes28> back in the day i mean [20:31] <Islwyn13> you're a werewolf, so you're ostracized? [20:31] <Islwyn13> that's true, Fawkes.. [20:31] <Tanaqui> hi, hopefully the library won't get crazy busy again! [20:31] <nympheart> i didn't say it was fair [20:31] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, fawkes, but that was just him being insecure and I can forgive that easier because it was not a life or death issue [20:31] <Islwyn13> again, his fear of being disliked or abandoned made him make bad decisions, I agree [20:31] <fawkes28> well, one time it was [20:31] <cbm> They were mean to snape but the bad part did not happen until Snape cut James [20:31] <Belenzie> well goota go guys nice chatting again hope to be back later this week bye!!! :* [20:31] <SoonerGryffindor> ture, but he was unable to do anything about that time [20:31] <Islwyn13> Lupin didn't know about Sirius telling Snape how to find him in teh Shack [20:32] <SoonerGryffindor> bye Bel [20:32] <gryffindelle> bye belenzie [20:32] *** gryfflepuff has quit [Bye] [20:32] <Islwyn13> bye, Belenzie! [20:32] <futureweasley> that took it to a whole new level...you're right cbm [20:32] <fawkes28> but is all built up to that though [20:32] *** Belenzie has quit [Bye] [20:32] <ProngsPatronus> just because you are a werewolf does not excuse you from withholding vital info, though [20:32] <freyja> i agree with islwyn about the fear of dislike...I think that that informs many of lupin's shying away from making difficult ethical chhoices [20:32] <Islwyn13> true, but that instance wasn't Lupin' fault [20:32] <SoonerGryffindor> Who do you consider to be the most ethical character in the series? Why? [20:32] <Islwyn13> he did nothing wrong there [20:32] <fawkes28> if he had stopped it earlier they may not have gotten to that level [20:32] <nympheart> McGonagall [20:32] <MrMcGonagall> Dumbledore. [20:32] <futureweasley> agreed...McGonagall [20:32] <Islwyn13> now you're blaming Lupin for Sirius's choices.. [20:32] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry [20:33] <harryfreak359> umbridge of course rolleyes [20:33] <nympheart> she does bend rules, but with reasons, she tries to be as fair as possible about it [20:33] <Islwyn13> you can't do that anymore than blaming DD for Tom's [20:33] <adamgryff> mcgonagall, she always seems to go about things in the proper order [20:33] <cbm> Harry, he is even kind to spiders [20:33] <nympheart> lol harryfreak [20:33] <Aislinn> Dumbedore [20:33] <adamgryff> lol harryfreak [20:33] <Islwyn13> Honestly...I think it's between DD and Harry [20:33] <futureweasley> actually, I think that Mrs. Figg is the most ethical [20:33] <Tanaqui> i would agree with all the mcgonagall folks [20:33] <harryfreak359> but truthfully Harry [20:33] <SoonerGryffindor> me too Isl [20:33] <freyja> I was always particularly impressed with Neville actually----especially in SS when he stands up to the trio [20:33] <harryfreak359> oh no Future.... [20:33] <SoonerGryffindor> but I think Harry wins [20:33] <Islwyn13> Neville is another good candidate... [20:33] * MrMcGonagall gives future a noogie. [20:33] <CarpeDiem> Good point freyja [20:33] <Aislinn> I think that he is a highly ethical being, who has a personal code of conduct based on loyalty, personal choice, respect for all creatures, and the cause of good int he world [20:33] <nympheart> Harry is up there, but he's not quite mature yet so its still a bit of a battle for him [20:33] <gryffindelle> mcgonagall [20:33] <fawkes28> i agree freyja, neville is pretty ethical [20:34] <SoonerGryffindor> just so long as no one says Dung we are good laugh [20:34] <Islwyn13> but we haven't really seen enough of him...though his choice to sacrifice himself in the MOM to prevent Harry from giving up the prophecy [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> I think that the most moral person is Arthur Weasley [20:34] <fawkes28> he does stand up to his friends when most wouldnt [20:34] <Islwyn13> classic morality! [20:34] <adamgryff> good point freyja, neville is pretty ethical [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> I think the most eithical person is hermione [20:34] <freyja> along with Neville I have to throw in Professor Sprout [20:34] <Aislinn> really, prongs? [20:34] <MrMcGonagall> Arthur, the man who created a loophole in his own law? [20:34] <cbm> I like Arthur! good choice [20:34] <Islwyn13> Hermione makes mistakes, too, usually out of Jealously smile [20:34] <nympheart> Hermione tries to be ethical, but she fails occasionally doing it [20:34] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree Priongs, but it would take forever to argue that [20:34] <futureweasley> very good distinction, PP [20:34] <Tanaqui> i think hermione needs a lot of convincing to bend the rules... [20:34] <Islwyn13> flock of birds agttacking Ron comes to mind smile [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> hey--it was there, wasn't it? [20:34] <Aislinn> even with her actions against Rita and Marietta? [20:34] <ProngsPatronus> lol [20:34] <fawkes28> well, it is hard to determine who is most ethical until we finish the series ;) [20:35] <Islwyn13> true, Fawkes [20:35] <MrMcGonagall> McG and Hermione are two sides of the same coin. [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> yes, even with those [20:35] <nympheart> but there's SPEW too [20:35] <SoonerGryffindor> and giving Umbridge up to the centaurs who could have killed her [20:35] <Islwyn13> but right now, I'd say DD and/or Harry [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> I found those actions to be ethical [20:35] <fawkes28> because some people could be surprised [20:35] <nympheart> I still say McGonagall [20:35] <futureweasley> lol PP [20:35] <Islwyn13> man, that's a hard question! smile [20:35] <nympheart> I'm reluctant to say DD because I think he was a manipulative jerk [20:35] <Aislinn> I'm not sure that I do, although I think they were understandable [20:35] <Islwyn13> ouch, nymph! [20:35] <ProngsPatronus> well--perhaps honourable would be a better choice of words [20:35] <futureweasley> there aren't any "moral" or "ethical" standouts [20:35] <CarpeDiem> How about the Cenetaurs? They're pretty ethical, aren't they? [20:36] <Aislinn> that's a bit harsh nymph [20:36] <Islwyn13> Bane, anyone? [20:36] <Islwyn13> not too ethical, I don't htink [20:36] <fawkes28> what about dobby? [20:36] <nympheart> the banished Firenze [20:36] <Aislinn> Dumbledore is a real standout future [20:36] <Islwyn13> Firenze I like [20:36] <freyja> What about Firenze or Luna? [20:36] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe CD, but they are jerks [20:36] <nympheart> Luna's very ethical [20:36] <CarpeDiem> Yes, but they stick to their own laws [20:36] <Islwyn13> Luna is another one we don't really know about...what are her motives? [20:36] <MrMcGonagall> Amelia Bones. [20:36] <freyja> Oooh Dobby too [20:36] <CarpeDiem> Their own beliefs [20:36] <Islwyn13> motive is very important, I think, when determining morality [20:36] <nympheart> yes, MrM [20:36] <futureweasley> Doris Crawford [20:36] <ProngsPatronus> yes--she is fair, madame bones [20:36] <Islwyn13> who? [20:36] <SoonerGryffindor> actually, I think Barty rouch Senior was probably very ethical [20:37] <Islwyn13> oh, no! [20:37] <gryffindelle> there isn't one "most ethical" character, most of the good people are ethical and most of the bad people are not [20:37] <nympheart> she didn't buy into prejudice like the rest of the MoM [20:37] <Islwyn13> Crouch SR? [20:37] * SoonerGryffindor runs and hiddes now [20:37] <nympheart> not Barty [20:37] <Aislinn> ooh, no, I would disagree with that one sooner! [20:37] <nympheart> he put Sirius in prison w/o a trial! [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> even with substituting his wife for his son? [20:37] <freyja> I just say Luna because she is true to herself at all costs in the most painful of social situations, which to me speaks volumes, but she also never wavered for the DA [20:37] <Islwyn13> he turned away from his son because it reflected badly upon him... [20:37] <SoonerGryffindor> he was willing to imprison his own son [20:37] <Aislinn> what is ethical about breaking your Death Eater son out of jail? [20:37] <adamgryff> I have to disagree sooner, he got his son out of prison [20:37] <ProngsPatronus> no--that to me was totally beyond the pale [20:37] <Islwyn13> it turned out he was right about his son, but he didn't really have a lot of evidence, I don't think [20:37] <MrMcGonagall> Ethical has to go beyond rule-following. Crouch Sr. granted some scary exceptions to the law, too. [20:37] <fawkes28> but then he let him out of jail!!! [20:37] <Tanaqui> freyja, i like your thinking [20:37] <SoonerGryffindor> true, but he kept him locked up [20:37] <Islwyn13> Crouch SR allowed the use of UC on DEs... [20:37] * harryfreak359 is not commenting on this [20:37] <nympheart> Sirius... [20:37] <Islwyn13> I have a problem with that [20:38] <fawkes28> lol, hf [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> he put people in gaol without due process [20:38] <futureweasley> BCS allowed his wife to die in Azkaban to save their no-good son [20:38] <nympheart> yes that too Islwyn [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> he made the Aurors do unforgiveables [20:38] <SoonerGryffindor> In the first war against Lord Voldemort, Crouch Sr. authorized the Aurors to use Unforgivables against the Death Eaters. What do you think of this decision, from an ethical viewpoint? [20:38] <freyja> there is the rub PP! [20:38] <Islwyn13> well, he ALLOWED the Aurors to do unforgiveables [20:38] <nympheart> not ethical [20:38] <MrMcGonagall> Bad idea. [20:38] <Islwyn13> I don't think he made them [20:38] <gryffindelle> not at all ethical [20:38] <Islwyn13> not ethical [20:38] <nympheart> he authorized it [20:38] <Aislinn> this is exactly why I DON"T think that he is ethical [20:38] <gryffindelle> not even a little bit [20:38] <adamgryff> no not ethical at all [20:38] <MrMcGonagall> Agreed, Aislinn. [20:38] <cbm> How different is that than using a gun in a war? [20:38] <ProngsPatronus> Moody didn't want to do them-- [20:39] <Islwyn13> the UC's - to torture, to take away free-will, to kill... [20:39] <fawkes28> this does not sure that he is very ethical [20:39] <SoonerGryffindor> well, he only wanted his side to have a fair chance [20:39] <freyja> it just reminds me of umbridge's "talking" herself into using crucio on Harry [20:39] <fawkes28> there are other ways that they could do their job [20:39] <nympheart> but wizards have better alternatives than automatic death [20:39] <Islwyn13> while I can see why it might be necessary to kill a DE, I don't agree wit the other two [20:39] <ProngsPatronus> yes, they do [20:39] <Aislinn> authorized is not making them - it is giving permission for something that is believed to be anathema within the wizarding community [20:39] <CarpeDiem> Well it's a difficult decision. If the other side is using a powerful weapon that you also have access to, do yo use that weapon? [20:39] <SoonerGryffindor> right [20:39] <gryffindelle> but there are other things to do that are now ucs that could be just as powerful [20:39] <SoonerGryffindor> so he didnt use them himself [20:39] <freyja> anytime a person, especially a ministry person like umbridge or crouch finds a way to "authorize" evil is bad bad bad [20:39] <cbm> Crucio is torture and under no circumstances can I see that being moral [20:39] <Islwyn13> not if it's cruel... [20:39] <nympheart> but the weapon wasn't necessary [20:39] <Aislinn> that is completely abandoning one's own principle's in the pursuit of a goal [20:39] <SoonerGryffindor> he just told them they would not be prosecuted if they did [20:40] <ProngsPatronus> just because you can does not mean that you should [20:40] <Tanaqui> i think it's wrong that was allowed...harry proved you can use simple spells to repell things, so why can't they know all the others to do battle with? [20:40] <MrMcGonagall> Perhaps the greatest tragedy of certain weapons is what it does to those who use them. [20:40] <fawkes28> also, he is making an "exception" to a pretty strict rule and it is unnecessary [20:40] <SoonerGryffindor> but did the circumstances warrannt that shift? [20:40] <futureweasley> I think that the use of the UC's allowed Auror's to tap into the ugliest part of themselves...so I don't think it was a great choice (from the mental well-being of the Auror's prespective) [20:40] <freyja> DD never stoopes to using unforgiveables and he gets what he wants [20:40] <SoonerGryffindor> DD is dead now [20:40] <gryffindelle> no sg [20:40] <freyja> that is very true [20:40] <fawkes28> i agree, future [20:40] <MrMcGonagall> Totally agree, FW. [20:40] <Aislinn> I think that it is a highly unethical action for Crouch to allow, and for any of the aurors to choose to ue [20:40] <nympheart> I think it was mainly to reassure the public [20:40] <Aislinn> use [20:40] <cbm> But in the MoM when harry used stunners, they kept doing envenerates [20:41] <freyja> but he did not go down using curses against his idea of the good [20:41] <ProngsPatronus> and to keep the Ministry--and himself--in power [20:41] <SoonerGryffindor> but what if it was a choice between that and allowing the bad side to win? What then [20:41] <Tanaqui> yes, and bellatrix said you have to want to and mean it when you use them...can all the aurors pull off an uc? [20:41] <nympheart> i doubt it Tanaqui [20:41] <fawkes28> he was definitely making this decisions based on all the wrong reasons [20:41] <Aislinn> it isn't though sooner [20:41] <CarpeDiem> Exactly sooner, if allowing unforgivables will help you end the war and save lives, is it a risk worth taking? [20:41] <Aislinn> probably not tanaqui [20:41] <fawkes28> it still wouldnt be right sooner [20:41] <freyja> if you use the same weapons as the "bad side" you have bought their philosophy and become one of them in deed if not in name or philosophy [20:41] <SoonerGryffindor> right [20:41] <SoonerGryffindor> that is a good question [20:41] <Aislinn> no, it is not worth the risk [20:42] <futureweasley> look at the cost! [20:42] <nympheart> yes freyja [20:42] <fawkes28> i agree, aislinn [20:42] <gryffindelle> think about tonks tanaqui, could she pull off a uc? [20:42] <freyja> worth the risk and ethical are different [20:42] <Islwyn13> if you compromise your principles, haven't you already lost? [20:42] <freyja> yes, thank you islwyn [20:42] <Tanaqui> no--great point, gryffin [20:42] <Aislinn> if you become the very thing you are fighting against, you have lost the original reason for fighting in the first place [20:42] <Islwyn13> agreed [20:42] <futureweasley> if there's another way to get the same result, why not go with the lesser of 2 evils? [20:42] <harryfreak359> ummm [20:42] <MrMcGonagall> Agreed Aislinn and FW. [20:42] <fawkes28> if you were truly the "better" wizard, you would find another way to win the war [20:42] <Aislinn> and yes, islwyn, you have already lost [20:42] *** nympheart left #lounge [] [20:42] <CarpeDiem> "Allowing" is not "forcing" or "requiring". Just because Moody would doesn't mean Kingsley would. [20:42] <SoonerGryffindor> I can see that argument to a certain extent, but you can also choose not to allow to become that [20:43] <Islwyn13> by becoming it? [20:43] <Aislinn> allowing is condoning carpe [20:43] <SoonerGryffindor> you still dont have to use them except for life and death situations [20:43] <SoonerGryffindor> and then still nobody was telling them they had to [20:43] <freyja> but those are the true tests [20:43] <MrMcGonagall> Which Harry tries and fails. [20:43] <Aislinn> that is saying I'll hold to my principles until I don't anymore [20:43] <Aislinn> then they are not really principles at all [20:43] <fawkes28> a true moral person wouldnt use them though [20:44] <Islwyn13> true, no one was teling them they had to.. [20:44] <Islwyn13> but he must have expected them to do so, by allowing it [20:44] <harryfreak359> what question are we on now? I was distracted [20:44] <MrMcGonagall> I'd rather die a martyr to my principles. [20:44] *** SayMorsmordre has joined #lounge [20:44] <Islwyn13> and so, to me, he made an unethical decision [20:44] <fawkes28> exactly, mr. m [20:44] <Aislinn> yes Mr M - I would hope to have that strength of character as well [20:44] <futureweasley> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. Don't forget to vote in the latest poll for the next WWW chat here http://www.leakylounge.com/forums.html#entry988259 [20:44] <Islwyn13> agreed, [20:44] <fawkes28> and i dont think harry wants to become a murderer [20:44] <ProngsPatronus> Aislinn, PM [20:45] <adamgryff> I don't either fawkes [20:45] <Aislinn> k [20:45] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [20:45] * harryfreak359 is definitely not commenting on this one... [20:45] <Islwyn13> lol [20:45] * CarpeDiem enjoys being the devil's advocate in moral debates smile [20:46] <Islwyn13> we're talking about whether it was ethical for Crouch SR to allow UC's to be used during the first Wizard War [20:46] <Islwyn13> Oh, a kindred spirit, Carpe! [20:46] <Islwyn13> Me too! [20:46] <ProngsPatronus> no [20:46] <fawkes28> hehe [20:46] <Aislinn> hey guys, I'm having too much fun, so I'm going to stick around to chat some more with anyone who wants to stay smile [20:46] <SoonerGryffindor> woot! [20:46] <Islwyn13> woo hoo! [20:46] <ProngsPatronus> yippee!!! [20:46] <fawkes28> woo hoo is right!!! [20:46] <harryfreak359> Well, I think it was unethical to used the cruciatus curse and the imperious curse for sure [20:46] <gryffindelle> yay!!! [20:46] <harryfreak359> WOOT! [20:46] <Islwyn13> yeah, that's where I am, harryfreak [20:46] <fawkes28> hf [20:46] *** MrMcGonagall left #lounge [] [20:46] * harryfreak359 hugs sooner [20:47] <Islwyn13> those are both too cruel... [20:47] <harryfreak359> no I am sorry I meant Aislinn [20:47] <futureweasley> the catch is, anyone who disagreed with a mod at anytime during this discussion must leave at the regularly scheduled tim [20:47] <futureweasley> lol [20:47] <Islwyn13> I think you sometimes have to kill, but to torture, to take away free will? [20:47] * gryffindelle throws big bag of chocolate to ais [20:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree hf, but I think being able to defend your life should not be unforgivealbe [20:47] <fawkes28> LOL [20:47] <Islwyn13> blast! [20:47] <ProngsPatronus> LOL [20:47] <Islwyn13> does taht mean me? [20:47] <freyja> not necessarily on topic, because it is not in the scope of UCs...but even after the heat of the moment, Harry feels deep remorse about Sectumsempra-ing Draco and says he NEVER would have used it [20:47] <adamgryff> lol [20:47] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [20:47] <harryfreak359> I agree Sooner [20:47] <fawkes28> i'll let you stay hehe [20:47] <Islwyn13> why would torturing another be considered self-defense? [20:47] <SoonerGryffindor> its not [20:47] <Aislinn> you can defend yourself without using unforgivables though, sooner [20:47] * ProngsPatronus reconsiders her arsenal of Magical weapons [20:48] <SoonerGryffindor> but defending your life is [20:48] <Aislinn> we have seen it happen throughout the books [20:48] <freyja> defending your life is not unforgiveable, but certain means of doing that are [20:48] <Islwyn13> yes, but I don't think Cruciatus falls into that catagory, Sooner [20:48] <harryfreak359> maybe sometimes Aislinn [20:48] <CarpeDiem> If you ahve to resort to an UC, I think you do not have the proper skill or training to be a proper Auror. [20:48] <Islwyn13> yes, Freyja, I agree with that [20:48] <Tanaqui> i think people with morals won't be able to properly do an uc... [20:48] <Islwyn13> and Carpe smile [20:48] <harryfreak359> it doesn't nor does the imperious curse [20:48] <ProngsPatronus> yes--why kill a mosquito with a tactical nuclear weapon, when one has a fly swatter at the ready? [20:48] <SoonerGryffindor> Who do you consider to be the most unethical character in the book? Why? [20:48] <SoonerGryffindor> Umbridge [20:48] <Islwyn13> oo, another good one... [20:49] <ProngsPatronus> Peter pettigrew [20:49] <harryfreak359> Umbridge [20:49] <futureweasley> Mundungus [20:49] <Islwyn13> yeah, she's definitely in teh rujning [20:49] <harryfreak359> Voldemort [20:49] <adamgryff> umbridge, pettigrew [20:49] <gryffindelle> lv, he will do anything [20:49] <harryfreak359> Bellatrix [20:49] <fawkes28> ummm voldemort [20:49] <SoonerGryffindor> because she hides behind rules [20:49] <harryfreak359> Lucius [20:49] <Aislinn> Umbridge [20:49] <CarpeDiem> Snape [20:49] <adamgryff> :doh: Lv [20:49] <futureweasley> Snape [20:49] <Islwyn13> oo, Snape, really? [20:49] <fawkes28> oh no carpe and future [20:49] <harryfreak359> no not Snape!!!! [20:49] <Islwyn13> I think you'll be surprised by him [20:49] <fawkes28> no no no no [20:49] * futureweasley high-fives CarpeDiem [20:49] <SoonerGryffindor> Actually, I htink bella holds to her ethics [20:49] <Tanaqui> oh goodness.... [20:49] <Islwyn13> Umbridge [20:49] <Tanaqui> i think i can't decide [20:49] <Islwyn13> I think she knew what was right, and did wrong anyway [20:49] * fawkes28 pokes future with a stick [20:49] <Islwyn13> for her own reasons [20:50] <Islwyn13> I don't thin kLV knows what is right... [20:50] <Aislinn> she is completely willing to set aside any principles in the pursuit of control [20:50] <futureweasley> Snape is dishonorable in almost every way...and where there is no honor, there are no ethics [20:50] <Islwyn13> he's totally broken [20:50] <ProngsPatronus> I think the Dark Lord is sacreligious and immoral, but I do think he has a twisted sort of ethics [20:50] <SoonerGryffindor> she has decided to be evil and she doesnt waver on that at all [20:50] *** Amontillada has quit [Bye] [20:50] <Islwyn13> I hold Umbridge more culpable than even LV [20:50] <Tanaqui> i guess tom/lv [20:50] <SoonerGryffindor> me too Isl [20:50] <CarpeDiem> What sort of ethics must you ahve to be a double agent? It doesn't matter if he's good or bad he's playing for both sides. [20:50] <fawkes28> besides voldemort i think umbridge and bellatrix are highly unethical [20:50] <freyja> I agree Isl [20:50] <Islwyn13> Snape has done some honorable things [20:50] <fawkes28> yes, isl! [20:50] <ProngsPatronus> I think Bella is simply psychotic [20:50] <Tanaqui> as tom he knew the boundaries and pushed them...and as lv he's doing horrible things to a greater extent [20:50] <Islwyn13> lol, agreed [20:50] <SoonerGryffindor> right Prongs [20:51] <Aislinn> I agree with you islwyn [20:51] <fawkes28> bella is cruel just to be cruel [20:51] <Islwyn13> I think Bella does what she thinks is right... [20:51] <Islwyn13> she's another one who is broken [20:51] <Aislinn> about Umbridge [20:51] <fawkes28> she really enjoys seeing people suffer [20:51] <Aislinn> not so sure about Snape tongue [20:51] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [20:51] <gryffindelle> i still think its lv [20:51] <Islwyn13> I'm in the "snape will show himself to be on the right side" camp [20:51] <Islwyn13> so I can't see him as totally unethical [20:51] <gryffindelle> me too isl [20:51] <Islwyn13> it wouldn't help my argument ;) [20:51] <cbm> Lucius tryed to kill children [20:51] <Aislinn> lol [20:51] <Islwyn13> so did everyone with him, though [20:52] <CarpeDiem> Again, if he's playing both sides what sort of ethics does he have? [20:52] <freyja> what about fenrir? [20:52] <ProngsPatronus> Peter Pettigrew is a betrayer of friends [20:52] <fawkes28> yes, islwyn we need to have the 7th book although most of us know that snape is good [20:52] <Islwyn13> Lucius is another one, though, who is culpable. [20:52] <Islwyn13> oo, fenrir...hate 'im [20:52] <Aislinn> good point carpe [20:52] <futureweasley> oh freyja, I had forgotten about him [20:52] *** HPotterExpert2 has quit [Bye] [20:52] * ProngsPatronus doesn't want to talk about nasty Snape [20:52] <Islwyn13> if he's playing both sides, that's a good point [20:52] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs - Peter's ethics are abysmal [20:52] <Islwyn13> if he's placing himself in danger to give the Order a fair chance, what then? [20:52] <fawkes28> we don't know that he is really playing both sides we only see things mostly form harry's point of view [20:52] <freyja> he scares me more than most of the others I think...because he understands what it is to suffer and wants to inflict it further [20:53] <cbm> There are some many unethical characters to choose from [20:53] <Islwyn13> that's self-sacrificing [20:53] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [20:53] <futureweasley> Fenrir + Snape = the picture of unethical behaviour [20:53] * fawkes28 hugs islwyn [20:53] <Islwyn13> lol [20:53] <cbm> agreed FW [20:53] <Tanaqui> hmm....are peter's *ethics* and *morals* to be his downfall, or his weak character? [20:53] * Islwyn13 hugs fawkes28 back! [20:53] <adamgryff> agree future [20:53] <gryffindelle> wb sooner [20:53] *** MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [20:53] <fawkes28> wb, mr. m [20:53] <gryffindelle> wb mr m [20:54] <CarpeDiem> Islwyn, what about DD's death? If DD approached you and asked you to kill him, would you be able to do it? [20:54] <Islwyn13> gone for a few...be back, though [20:54] <MrMcGonagall> I'm probably just in time for the group hug. Darn compute. [20:54] <Aislinn> I'm not sure what you mean, tanaqui [20:54] <Islwyn13> I don't know... [20:54] <ProngsPatronus> I believe nasssssty Snape is out for himself [20:54] <Islwyn13> it would depend on why he wanted it done [20:54] <futureweasley> MrMcG...you just made it in time to validate that Snape is the most unethical character in the book *gigglesnort* [20:54] <Islwyn13> but then, I believe in reincarnation and am not really afraid of death, so... [20:54] <futureweasley> we're chatting over tonight, MrMcG! There's more time for you! [20:54] <ProngsPatronus> and that his morals would not survive a day in the sun [20:54] <SoonerGryffindor> we are styaing longer Mr M [20:54] <harryfreak359> Future I don't now you can put Snape in the same category as Fenrir [20:54] <fawkes28> mr. m you know you want to disagree with future [20:54] <Tanaqui> well, i don't know if pp has bad ethics per say--he just is weak and can't stand up to his morals/ethics/good behavior [20:54] <Islwyn13> if DD knew something I didn't, and his death would save others, then I hope I'd have the strength, yes [20:54] <MrMcGonagall> Hooray!!! [20:54] *** memyslfnI has joined #lounge [20:54] <CarpeDiem> So you would allow DD to persuage your beliefs about killing another person? smile [20:54] <futureweasley> 1) thye are deatheaters [20:54] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [20:54] <gryffindelle> hi memyslfnI [20:55] <futureweasley> 2) they are loyal to the dark lord [20:55] <Aislinn> hey memyslfnI! [20:55] <SoonerGryffindor> In PoA, Dumbledore encourages 2 young wizards to break wizarding law by using a time turner to go back and help 2 being escape the official wizarding justice system. Was this an ethical decision to make? [20:55] <Islwyn13> no, because I believe that killing is sometimes necessary [20:55] <Aislinn> good to see you [20:55] <gryffindelle> and hpexpert2 [20:55] * CarpeDiem is playing devil's advocate again smile [20:55] <freyja> i would say that Snape is more ambiguous in his motivations, so it is far more difficult to tell [20:55] <memyslfnI> hey1 i am late so i will observe1 LOL [20:55] <harryfreak359> fenrir eat kids! [20:55] <Islwyn13> excellent, I love it! [20:55] <futureweasley> 3) they conspired to kill DD! [20:55] <cbm> Yes, they were freeing a man who never had a trial [20:55] *** HPotterExpert2 has quit [Bye] [20:55] <MrMcGonagall> I think it was ethical. There's no other way for what is right and good to prevail. [20:55] <gryffindelle> yes, i think so [20:55] <Islwyn13> yes, I think Dd made the ethical decision... [20:55] <CarpeDiem> Okay gotta take a break...brb [20:55] <SoonerGryffindor> I have a hard time with this question because I think that due to the nature of tme turners it might have already happened [20:55] <ProngsPatronus> for the letter of the law--no--the spirit of the law--yes [20:55] <fawkes28> well, maybe not but it was right [20:55] <Aislinn> I think it was ethical [20:55] *** CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [20:55] <adamgryff> to save the lifes or people, was ethical [20:55] <Islwyn13> yeah, so DD might have already known what teh end result wuold be, I agree, Sooner [20:55] <SoonerGryffindor> so there was no decision to make, because of it already happening [20:56] <adamgryff> *of [20:56] <fawkes28> i think that he broke the rules because there was a higher moral code that he needed to live by [20:56] <Islwyn13> time paradoxes..please, let's not smile [20:56] <freyja> again it goes back to the aristotle idea: preserves what is good=good [20:56] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [20:56] <Islwyn13> gone for a sec [20:56] <Aislinn> in this case, it was much more important to seek out the spirit of the law - justice - than it was to adhere to the letter of the law [20:56] <futureweasley> the key words that DD used is "save two innocent lives" [20:56] <futureweasley> they had the power to effect change and undo terrible fates [20:56] <MrMcGonagall> The real objective is to save Sirius. But DD would have known about Buckbeak. [20:57] <futureweasley> they used it...it wasn't ethical, but it was right [20:57] <cbm> There was no time paradox :-[ [20:57] <SoonerGryffindor> but lets assume there are no time paradoxes. I still think he made the right decision [20:57] <gryffindelle> breaking one law, as long as it does no real harm, to save two innocent people is still ethical [20:57] <Aislinn> yes gryff [20:57] <MrMcGonagall> Laws seldom envision every conceivable circumstance. [20:57] <ProngsPatronus> no--it was ethical--it just wasn't legal [20:57] <fawkes28> could he have really lived with his decision if he had followed the rules of the land?? i think not [20:58] <freyja> also--which law? as in "miss granger you know the law..." which could be more of a scientific don't be seen paradox law [20:58] <Aislinn> true Mr M [20:58] <cbm> But Sirius had never been convicted of a crime, I think it was very ethical [20:58] <fawkes28> i think dumbledore's "law" exceeds time and space [20:59] <ProngsPatronus> actually, if you think about it--DD amy have had legal standing superior to Fudge's [20:59] <SoonerGryffindor> right freyja [20:59] <Aislinn> in what way, prongs? [20:59] <ProngsPatronus> he is the Supremem Mugwump of the Wizengamot [20:59] <memyslfnI> as in the Wizengmot? [20:59] <freyja> yes that [20:59] <SoonerGryffindor> Dumbledore chooses to pull back together the Order of the Phoenix at the end of GoF. They must act in secret, as the Ministry does not choose to believe in Lord Voldemort's return and resists any actions that contradict their denial. Whose actions are more ethical? [20:59] <freyja> stole the words right off my keyboard [20:59] <MrMcGonagall> The Time-Turner is interesting, because we see both the laws of nature (time) v. wizard law (restricting the use of TTs. [20:59] <ProngsPatronus> which is like being a supreme court judge [20:59] <Aislinn> true, but he didn't seem to be able to stop the deaths through "proper channels" [21:00] <gryffindelle> the order's [21:00] <fawkes28> the order [21:00] <gryffindelle> and dd's [21:00] <Aislinn> definitely the Order [21:00] <MrMcGonagall> The Order is right. [21:00] <ProngsPatronus> still--a judge can order a stay in the Muggle World [21:00] <freyja> judge's "interpret" laws...they do not make them [21:00] <Aislinn> true [21:00] <ProngsPatronus> wouldn't DD's command have the same effect? [21:00] <fawkes28> the MoM is ignorant at least those at the top are [21:00] <Tanaqui> agreed--the order...being secret doesn't mean you're unethical [21:00] <freyja> i think we can all agree that the order was right [21:00] <MrMcGonagall> DD could have been much more secretive than he was with the Order. [21:01] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [21:01] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it was technically wrong of them to go behind the MoM's back, but since Fudge gave them no option, they did the ethically right thing [21:01] <memyslfnI> are tehy ignorant? Or Lazy? Or hoping things will "work themselves out" [21:01] <MrMcGonagall> Are the Order members like vigilantes? [21:01] <adamgryff> thanks, for the chat, but must get some rest. [21:01] <fawkes28> if the law is not doing it's job, then someone needs to do it for them even if it means breaking the rules [21:01] <memyslfnI> typical government inaction is what I see [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> ostriches, every one [21:01] <SoonerGryffindor> bye adamgryff [21:01] <freyja> i think the MOM were being what my old professor called ethically slothful [21:01] <SayMorsmordre> bye [21:01] *** adamgryff left #lounge [] [21:01] <gryffindelle> bye adam [21:01] <ProngsPatronus> bye adam [21:01] <fawkes28> because the MoM was not being ethical..rules orr no rules [21:02] *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [21:02] <Aislinn> I think it was much more ethical to see the truth for what it was, and to fight against evil [21:02] <MrMcGonagall> They're almost like a resistance movement. [21:02] <memyslfnI> here! here! [21:02] <futureweasley> wb Carpe [21:02] <gryffindelle> eb cd [21:02] <CarpeDiem> Thanks! [21:02] <gryffindelle> *wb [21:02] <SoonerGryffindor> well, for the most part, the Mom thought they were doing the right thing. Most of them did not have the insider info that Fudge had [21:02] <Tanaqui> i would compare it to people hiding Jews during WWII or the underground railroad in the u.s. [21:02] <ProngsPatronus> wb [21:02] <freyja> civil disobedience is not the same as moral disobendience... [21:03] *** hermy647 has joined #lounge [21:03] <MrMcGonagall> But they also chose to believe Fudge over Dumbledore. [21:03] <HPotterExpert2> I haven't aid anything [21:03] <HPotterExpert2> sad [21:03] <harryfreak359> hmmm [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> because it was easy [21:03] <Tanaqui> ooo--kinda like the first season of alias! most thought sd-6 was good.... [21:03] <hermy647> sod I [21:03] <ProngsPatronus> ! [21:03] <CarpeDiem> Depending on what facts you had and yes what the easier (and more likely choice was) Fudge may have been the more logical choice [21:03] <SoonerGryffindor> okay guys, this chat has been great, but I have to go. From here on out, fawkes28 will be asking the questions [21:03] <MrMcGonagall> DD told anyone who would listen that LV was back. [21:04] <Aislinn> good comparison with the underground railroad tanaqui [21:04] <MrMcGonagall> bye, Sooner! [21:04] <Tanaqui> smile [21:04] <hermy647> yur goin 2 fast [21:04] <Aislinn> bye sooner! [21:04] <ProngsPatronus> thanks so much, SG! [21:04] <SoonerGryffindor> buye all [21:04] <freyja> bye sooner! [21:04] <SoonerGryffindor> thanks for the wonderful chat everyone [21:04] <CarpeDiem> See ya SoonerGryffindor, thanks for all you do! [21:04] <hermy647> kay [21:04] <HPotterExpert2> bye sooner! [21:04] <gryffindelle> bye sooner [21:04] <hermy647> whose sooner? [21:04] <SayMorsmordre> byee [21:04] <CarpeDiem> Sooner - SoonerGryffindor [21:05] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [21:05] <harryfreak359> bye sooner [21:05] <harryfreak359> ahhh...lag... [21:05] <MrMcGonagall> OK, fawkes, take over! [21:05] <fawkes28> smile [21:05] <hermy647> bye [21:05] <harryfreak359> woo hoo for Fawkes! [21:05] <fawkes28> In the first war against Lord Voldemort, Crouch Sr. authorized the Aurors to use Unforgivables against the Death Eaters. What do you think of this decision, from an ethical viewpoint? [21:05] <futureweasley> ickles fawkes first CB assignment...I'm like a proud big sister [21:05] <cbm> good night, biggrin It has been fun [21:06] <Aislinn> bye cbm [21:06] <gryffindelle> we already did that, didn't we [21:06] <futureweasley> good night cbm [21:06] <gryffindelle> ? [21:06] <futureweasley> thanks for coming [21:06] <harryfreak359> didn't we have that question already? [21:06] <ProngsPatronus> night, cbm [21:06] <fawkes28> yay! woo hoo thanks, hf [21:06] <gryffindelle> bye cbm [21:06] <memyslfnI> not a good idea, IMO..an eye for an eye leaves us blind so to speak [21:06] <harryfreak359> smile [21:06] <cbm> I enjoyed it [21:06] *** cbm has quit [Bye] [21:06] <hermy647> i left [21:06] <ProngsPatronus> I agree, M [21:06] *** hermy647 has quit [Bye] [21:06] <fawkes28> Harry and Cedric share information with each other about the Triwizard Tournament. Is this unethical? [21:06] <Aislinn> right me [21:06] <MrMcGonagall> Yes. [21:06] *** hermy647 has joined #lounge [21:07] <ProngsPatronus> yes [21:07] <futureweasley> I do, too MrMcG [21:07] <Tanaqui> mmmm...i think i'd have to say yes--it's blatant cheating.... [21:07] <harryfreak359> hmmm [21:07] <MrMcGonagall> Granted, cheating has always been part of the tournament, but that doesn't make it right. [21:07] <freyja> exactly... [21:07] <Tanaqui> exactly [21:07] <hermy647> Hi [21:07] <Islwyn13> Well, harry found out about the dragons accidentally.. [21:07] <Aislinn> it seems that unethical behaviour is built into the Tournament's tradition [21:07] <Islwyn13> at least, without his intent.,.. [21:07] <hermy647> he did [21:07] <ProngsPatronus> but at least Cedric lives up to his Hufflepuff nature [21:07] <fawkes28> true, aislinn [21:07] <memyslfnI> But they are clearly at a disadvantage if they do not cheat [21:07] <ProngsPatronus> he's fair about it [21:07] <freyja> i think it was inspired by Harry's idea of fair play, but not necessarily ethical [21:07] <Islwyn13> once HE knew what was coming, wasn't he honorbound to let the otehrs know, too? [21:07] <Aislinn> true isl - it was Hagrid being unethical in that instance [21:07] <futureweasley> it's cheating...no matter where the information came from...they actively sought each other out, knowing that sharing the information was wrong [21:07] <harryfreak359> yeah, but in some ways, it isn't...really...he was helping cedric, not plotting against him. But the cheating part is wrong. [21:08] <fawkes28> but poor harry didnt even ask to be put into it [21:08] <gryffindelle> no [21:08] <futureweasley> the intention was in the right place...but it was wrong nonetheless [21:08] <CarpeDiem> It is but the tournament was a set up to begin with and I think everyone knew that and "played" accordingly. So, if everyone is cheating does that still make cheating wrong? [21:08] <memyslfnI> they all should be on equal footing [21:08] <Aislinn> I think he was being honorable, actually [21:08] <MrMcGonagall> the cheating does tend to subvert the purpose of the tournament and the integrity of the champions. [21:08] <Islwyn13> right...except that expecting Harry to combat a dragon, when he was so young and hadn't entered himself.... [21:08] <memyslfnI> me too Aoslinn [21:08] <CarpeDiem> I definitely agree with that Aislinn [21:08] <Islwyn13> Hagrid was trying to help Harry [21:08] <hermy647> yes [21:08] <fawkes28> well, it still does make it wrong, carpe [21:08] <futureweasley> then they should have shared the info with Fleur and Krum too [21:08] <Islwyn13> his reasons were just [21:08] <Aislinn> making sure that Cedric was on an even playing field with all the other champions [21:08] <freyja> guess that goes back tot he if all your friends jumped off a bridge mentality [21:08] <Islwyn13> he didn't show Harry the dragons to help him win, but to hel phim survive, I think [21:09] <Islwyn13> right, Aislinn [21:09] <Aislinn> they had the information FW [21:09] *** dumbleydore18 has joined #lounge [21:09] <futureweasley> even footing means that they should have made TRIPLE sure that the other champions had the same information [21:09] <MrMcGonagall> Knowing that the other champions knew, it probably was an honorable thing to at least fill Cedirc in on what he was facing. [21:09] <memyslfnI> they had headmasters who cheated themselves [21:09] <Islwyn13> that's how I feel...he knew that Cedric was teh only one who didn't know... [21:09] *** dumbleydore18 left #lounge [] [21:09] <Islwyn13> so he did the only fair thing [21:09] <futureweasley> we don't really know that they did [21:09] <fawkes28> just because everyone is doing it doesnt mean it right...i.e. all the death eaters kill people and that is not right at all [21:09] <Islwyn13> and told Cedric what to expect [21:09] <ProngsPatronus> Harry knew that fleur and Krum were going to get the info--that's why he told Cedric [21:09] <hermy647> yes [21:09] <Aislinn> we saw both Karkaroff and Maxime get the information [21:09] <Aislinn> and we know they received it [21:09] <memyslfnI> yes PP..I agree [21:09] <Islwyn13> and knew htey would be unethical and tell their students [21:09] <futureweasley> WE saw that...but Harry and Cedric didn't [21:09] <Tanaqui> anything to win, you know [21:09] <Islwyn13> NOT telling Cedric would have been unethical, I think [21:09] <CarpeDiem> We did but did Harry know? [21:10] <ProngsPatronus> that's canon [21:10] <Islwyn13> Harry did [21:10] <futureweasley> they assumed [21:10] <hermy647> yes [21:10] <Aislinn> Harry did [21:10] <Islwyn13> assumed rightly... [21:10] <Islwyn13> harry saw Karkaroff and Maxime... [21:10] <MrMcGonagall> Harry would have been taking an even more unethical advantage of his knowledge by not telling Cedric. [21:10] <memyslfnI> Dumbledore did not cheat..Did he have Moody watch Harry knowing full well he would "bend the rules"? [21:10] <Islwyn13> he had every reason to believe they would tell their students... [21:10] <hermy647> yes [21:10] <Aislinn> I agree Mr M [21:10] <freyja> that is true...i think we call that a catch 22 [21:10] <Aislinn> that's possible m [21:10] <fawkes28> i think dumbledore, like everyone, was concerned for harry [21:10] <Islwyn13> DD didn't nkow "moody" would bend the rules, I don't think [21:11] <CarpeDiem> Good point Mr.M [21:11] <fawkes28> he was under 17 after all [21:11] <ProngsPatronus> Hagrid took Mme. Maxime there himself [21:11] <hermy647> yes [21:11] <Islwyn13> well under [21:11] <Islwyn13> yeah, because he was flirting with her smile [21:11] <Aislinn> Harry was entered in without volunteering to take on the risk [21:11] <Islwyn13> I'm not sure he thought she would tell Fleur... [21:11] <Islwyn13> Hagrid can be blinded by what he is feeling smile [21:11] <freyja> hagrid has loyalty, but little sense [21:11] <MrMcGonagall> We definitely see people's weaknesses at work concerning the tournament as a whole. [21:11] <Islwyn13> Norbert's just a cute little dragon smile [21:11] <ProngsPatronus> of course he knew [21:11] <fawkes28> right, islwyn [21:11] <Islwyn13> I really don't think he did [21:11] <Islwyn13> he wanted to show her something impressive [21:11] <hermy647> cute cute cute... [21:12] <Islwyn13> what's more impressive than dragons? [21:12] <CarpeDiem> Moody was certainly a rule breaker - the ferret incident for example. I imagine DD knew what Moody was capable of. It may have bneen one reeson he allowed Harry to participate [21:12] <MrMcGonagall> Hagrid can be way too trusting. [21:12] <ProngsPatronus> it almost seems like an adult conspiracy [21:12] <Islwyn13> what better way to get a lady's attention smile_ [21:12] <hermy647> yes [21:12] <ProngsPatronus> and the triwizard kids are caught up in the immorality and agendas of the adults [21:12] <freyja> hee hee hee [21:12] <fawkes28> The wizarding community has decided that it is best the Muggle world does not know of their existence. Because of this, they choose to use the Obliviator charm to wipe the memories of any Muggles who happen to run into Wizard's actions. How do you view this, morally speaking? [21:12] <memyslfnI> good point PP! [21:12] <Islwyn13> remmeber, that was Criouch JR, not Moody [21:12] <freyja> i agree PP [21:12] <Islwyn13> very interesting question... [21:12] <Aislinn> I agree with that as well Prongs [21:12] <CarpeDiem> Good point Prongs, it's like the sport parents fighting over the peewee sport games [21:13] <MrMcGonagall> Oooh, good question. [21:13] <gryffindelle> i think its wrong [21:13] <freyja> i think the unethical actions of the adults causes the catch 22 for the kids [21:13] <fawkes28> i think they need to use it for their safety [21:13] <Islwyn13> in many ways, I see it as unethical [21:13] <futureweasley> I think that wizards unfairly peg all muggles as close-minded. [21:13] <Islwyn13> but necessary... [21:13] <Islwyn13> very hard one, that [21:13] <gryffindelle> and unethical [21:13] <hermy647> I think that if I were a muggle, I'd be glad to know there is magic!!!! [21:13] <Aislinn> this one is pretty troublesome for me [21:13] <ProngsPatronus> I agree Islwyn [21:13] <Islwyn13> but how do yo uknow which muggle will blow the whistle and try to kill you, and which won't? [21:13] <freyja> sigh...obliviation makes me feel uncomfortable because i am so attached to freedom of information [21:13] <fawkes28> i actually don't think it is that unethical if it is used properly [21:13] <Aislinn> I think its a pretty questionable practice [21:13] <harryfreak359> It is best for the muggles, though, they may think that they are going insane and such, and it could cause a lot of trouble [21:13] <Tanaqui> obliviator charm...we saw it in men in black as well....sort of [21:13] <Islwyn13> the wizards remember teh inquisition all too well [21:13] <MrMcGonagall> It's a little scary to think that wizards have these powers over Muggles. Great temptations. [21:14] <Aislinn> we did tanaqui smile [21:14] <ProngsPatronus> human nature being what it is, though--what Muggle gov't would not try to take advantage of it? [21:14] <futureweasley> harryfreak, would you think you lost your mind if you saw magic happen? [21:14] <memyslfnI> I think they do it for the good of the wizarding world.think of the mass hysteria, the "scientific experements" the persecution.. [21:14] <Islwyn13> yeah, and that the Ministry, that is supposed to watch teh wizards adn keep things in check, is totally corrupt [21:14] <Islwyn13> very scary [21:14] * ProngsPatronus thinks there should not be a Wizarding gap [21:14] <Islwyn13> and yet, they are still "stealing" memories from the muggles [21:14] <Aislinn> I'm sure that is their motivation, but I'm not sure it makes it any less unethical [21:14] <MrMcGonagall> I guess I think the memory charms are probably not such a bad thing, when it comes right down to it. [21:14] <memyslfnI> PP is that where they buy there clothes? LOL! [21:14] <fawkes28> i agree, hf [21:15] <ProngsPatronus> it is from dr. Stranglove [21:15] <futureweasley> the memory charms are terribly shady, and unfair [21:15] <MrMcGonagall> It doesn't really harm the Muggles in any way, so long as a member of the Obliviator Squad does it and not some incompetent wizard. [21:15] <Tanaqui> i'm trying to think if either case is good...knowing the truth about aliens or wizards would cause some hysteria or greed or .... [21:15] <CarpeDiem> In some way as a MoM official don't you know there will have to be a time when muggles and wizards "meet"? Aren't you delaying the inevitable? [21:15] <futureweasley> let the person in possession of the memory decide if they are equiped to handle it [21:15] <Aislinn> it is stealing memories away from someone - who would choose to have memories stolen? [21:15] <hermy647> I honestly think people would be scared to know there is something more than the town they live in but on the other hand- wwizardryawareness would make life so much interesting [21:15] <ProngsPatronus> I see it as a misguided attempt to protect the magical World--so that they can do what they like, when they like [21:16] <Islwyn13> except that their knowing might cause harm to the wizard populace [21:16] <Islwyn13> or even to teh muggle populace [21:16] <Aislinn> me too prongs [21:16] <CarpeDiem> wizardawarness - I like it hermy647 ! smile [21:16] <ProngsPatronus> not unlike the institution of reservations in the US [21:16] <Tanaqui> ah--now i'm thinking of the matrix....red or blue? [21:16] <freyja> i guess i see the general necessity, but at the same time, if Muggles as heinous as th eDursleys can get along without them...it just leaves a lot of questions [21:16] <memyslfnI> in a utopian world they might all get along..but I think there would be huge problems if the muggle world knew about the wizarding world [21:16] <Islwyn13> when War of the Worlds aired, adn people thought they were really being invaded by aliens, there were many suicides, many heartatatacks... [21:16] <hermy647> Memories are very important to our society and that would be a conflict [21:16] <Islwyn13> lots of problems... [21:16] <Islwyn13> and that was fiction [21:16] <fawkes28> right, islwyn it could be dangerous [21:17] <harryfreak359> yes, Islwyn [21:17] <ProngsPatronus> but how many people would welcome that--look how many millions read HP [21:17] <harryfreak359> that's why I think it is for the best that they don't know [21:17] <Islwyn13> fictoin adn reality are two different things [21:17] <hermy647> well yea but wouldn't you want to personally experience the wizarding world? [21:17] <ProngsPatronus> look how many people have been put away because they believed in *magic* [21:17] <harryfreak359> people like the dursleys [21:17] <fawkes28> Is following the rules always the most ethical or moral thing to do? [21:17] <CarpeDiem> Interesting idea...introduce the concept as fiction before "revealing" yourelf to the world. Nice ending to book 7, don't you think? [21:17] <Islwyn13> 'and again, from teh wizards point of view, how do they know who will be understanding, and who will try and start up another inquisition [21:17] <gryffindelle> no [21:17] <harryfreak359> no [21:17] <Islwyn13> no [21:17] <harryfreak359> definitely not [21:18] <MrMcGonagall> The separation of the wizards into their own community is their choice. Do they have a right to that choice, since they still must cohabit to some extent with Muggles? [21:18] <gryffindelle> look at the tt/shreiking shack incident [21:18] <freyja> ok...well i think everyone here would like to see the wizarding world, but there are many Muggles who may act unethically towards the wizards [21:18] <ProngsPatronus> with apologies to FW--no [21:18] <hermy647> true- it isnt accepted by our society but if it could be seen from different point [21:18] <futureweasley> I am so frustrated by this question [21:18] <freyja> does that excuse the wizards from erasing memories? i don't know [21:18] <Islwyn13> why? [21:18] <fawkes28> why future? [21:18] <Islwyn13> the rules question? [21:18] <harryfreak359> yes, why? [21:18] <Aislinn> I think that sometimes it is more unethical to follow the rules, if the rules are immoral [21:18] <Tanaqui> it depends on which rules--are they the ones you consider the most important? [21:18] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think following the rules is always the most ethical or moral thing to do. [21:19] <futureweasley> I think it's absolutely deplorable that it's seen as "ok" to only stick the rule you feel apply to you [21:19] <hermy647> yes [21:19] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [21:19] <fawkes28> i agree, aislinn [21:19] <MrMcGonagall> It depends on what the basis of the rule is. [21:19] <ProngsPatronus> I am a mystic--it is not in me to bow to institutions who follow the letter of the law at the expense of the spirit of the law [21:19] <Islwyn13> again, it's not a fickle decision [21:19] <fawkes28> lag lag [21:19] <Aislinn> that's not what I'm saying though FW [21:19] <fawkes28> like in the case of umbridge [21:19] <futureweasley> it is what I'm saying [21:19] <hermy647> everyone has different opinions [21:19] <Islwyn13> you're right, if you decideed, " I can steal, it doesn't apply to me", that's unethical [21:19] <freyja> i agree with PP [21:19] <fawkes28> and barty crouch sr. [21:19] <Aislinn> it depends on what you believe to be the highest moral code [21:19] <MrMcGonagall> There are bad laws, and sometimes badly construed laws. [21:19] <Aislinn> the one set down by the government? [21:20] <ProngsPatronus> FW--I do understand--and I assure you--I would not do something like that for a whim [21:20] <Islwyn13> when do you fight against what is wrong? [21:20] <fawkes28> right mr. m and usually those governments fail This post has been edited by futureweasley: Oct 25 2006, 09:26 PM |
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Oct 25 2006, 09:25 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner |
[21:20] <memyslfnI> the saying "rules are made to be broken" can be true in certain situations. Rules in some culturs supress and intimiidate. In others they cause the continuity of the comunity. It depends on the law and why it was written
[21:20] <gryffindelle> depends which government, ais [21:20] <Islwyn13> if slavery is legal, shouldn't people fight against that rule? [21:20] <Islwyn13> isn't that an immoral law that should be fought against? [21:20] <harryfreak359> I am not talking of rules not be applied to a certain person [21:20] <Aislinn> should we always blindly follow and believe in rules set down by people who don't share our moral code? [21:20] <gryffindelle> yes isl [21:20] <MrMcGonagall> Again, I think it's why there is a difference between man-made laws designed to regulate society, and moral laws which are always and everywhere true. [21:20] <harryfreak359> I am talking of rules that do wrong to others [21:20] <gryffindelle> no [21:20] <fawkes28> some people thought so but others didnt islwyn and both believed they were right [21:20] <Islwyn13> even in teh military, officers can disobey a direct order if it is immoral or unlawful [21:20] <hermy647> as humans we are set up very complex so we all see things different and somethins are seen as thoroughly sacriligious but others dont see it that way [21:21] <Aislinn> exactly Mr M [21:21] <Islwyn13> and that's an organization taht REALLY big on rules smile [21:21] <Islwyn13> believe me smile [21:21] <Aislinn> this gets back to the issue of universal truths [21:21] <Islwyn13> yeah, it does [21:21] <freyja> hee hee hee [21:21] <hermy647> xctly [21:21] <fawkes28> well, people's morals may also chance over the years depending on their experience [21:21] <Islwyn13> and who's truths you wil follow [21:21] <futureweasley> no, that's not what I'm saying. Look at american government...it is our duty as citizens to question our lawmakers [21:21] <fawkes28> *change [21:21] <Islwyn13> right... [21:21] <futureweasley> question, but not disrespect. [21:21] <memyslfnI> here here FW! [21:21] <freyja> this gets back to my question about everyone's definition of "the ethical"! [21:21] <Aislinn> and to be civilly disobedient when necessary [21:21] <Aislinn> that is not being disrespectful [21:21] <Islwyn13> yes, Aislinn, I agree with that [21:22] <hermy647> gotta go Bye!! [21:22] *** hermy647 has quit [Bye] [21:22] <futureweasley> follow a rule until you've effected the changes in that rule [21:22] <fawkes28> we the people do need to keep the government in check [21:22] <Aislinn> it is showing respect to the principles on which the country was founded [21:22] <Islwyn13> what if the system is broken? [21:22] <ProngsPatronus> our country was founded on civil disobedience [21:22] <Islwyn13> what if you can't affect change, becuase the system won't let you? [21:22] <futureweasley> civil disobedience is a complete disconnect [21:22] <Aislinn> exactly islwyn [21:22] <MrMcGonagall> Then you join the Order of the Phoenix, Islwyn. [21:22] <Islwyn13> which is breaking the rules smile [21:22] <freyja> disobeying a rule that is not ethical is showing respect for a higher law [21:22] <Islwyn13> my point, exactly [21:22] <fawkes28> then you need to do something about it islwyn [21:22] <futureweasley> and action should be taken to fix the problem...but it can't be on a handful of people to make that change [21:23] <ProngsPatronus> the Boston tea Party was an act of civil disobedience [21:23] <Islwyn13> then who is it on? [21:23] <fawkes28> if the system is not just then the people need to stand up for their rights [21:23] <memyslfnI> PP I was just typing that! [21:23] <ProngsPatronus> lol [21:23] <Aislinn> sometimes it is a handful of people that need to foment change [21:23] <Islwyn13> WE are responsible, WE must act if an inustice is occuring [21:23] <Islwyn13> if not us, who? [21:23] *** hermy647 has joined #lounge [21:23] <ProngsPatronus> rosa Parks violated the law [21:23] <Islwyn13> it should be well thought out, reasoned, not whimsical, but sometimes you haev to act [21:23] * MrMcGonagall knows that Islwyn is on the verge of forming a Muggle DA. [21:23] <futureweasley> I'm not saying that once rules are established, they are set in stone [21:24] <harryfreak359> lol [21:24] <hermy647> Ithink morals are shown lot inHP [21:24] <fawkes28> but then rosa parks also progressed our society [21:24] <Islwyn13> LOL, line's over here, come on now! [21:24] <gryffindelle> mlk went to jail [21:24] <memyslfnI> as a person who works in government it is unfortunately those with money who controll what laws are written..we see this in HP and the Malfoys [21:24] <Islwyn13> don't worry about the curse, it's not forever smile [21:24] <Aislinn> Rosa Parks is a wonderful example [21:24] <Islwyn13> yes, she is [21:24] <hermy647> i know [21:24] <MrMcGonagall> To do what is right and good - we should always be willing to go to the block for that. [21:24] <ProngsPatronus> and stopping the DL isn't better? [21:24] <futureweasley> what I am saying is that there outright disobeying a rule with no plan to fix the deeper problem is a DEEP problem [21:24] <fawkes28> if people don't stand up for their beliefs how is society ever supposed to advance??? [21:24] <ProngsPatronus> for the WW? [21:24] <memyslfnI> we see this today with oil companies, pharmaceuticals, etc..they write the laws to beter their interests [21:24] <Aislinn> that's an excellent point M [21:24] <Islwyn13> right, future, but sometimes teh system that made those laws won't let you fix them [21:25] <fawkes28> change is necessary for society to advance [21:25] <Islwyn13> oh, that's true, Future, I agree, you haver to have a plan, you haev to have thought about what you're fighting for [21:25] <memyslfnI> Aislinn as a New Yorker you know what I am sayingLOL! [21:25] <harryfreak359> I agree MrMcG [21:25] <Aislinn> capricious breaking, for no purpose other than breaking a rule would be unethical FW, I agree with that [21:25] <freyja> or the system has developed rules that forbid your changing the rules--think tyranny [21:25] <hermy647> me2 [21:25] <Islwyn13> but just because there's a rule, doesn't mean it must be obeyed, and doesn't mean you have to use the broken system taht made the rule to unmake the rule [21:25] <Aislinn> oh yes! [21:25] <Islwyn13> because that might not work [21:25] <Islwyn13> and probably won't [21:25] <futureweasley> is the juice worth the squeeze? that is the question [21:25] <hermy647> true [21:25] <ProngsPatronus> I don't think anyone in here is talking about capriciousness, FW [21:25] *** SayMorsmordre has quit [Bye] [21:26] <CarpeDiem> lol nicely put FW smile [21:26] <fawkes28> right freyja and tyranny can only get a society so far because it is unjust [21:26] <Islwyn13> lol [21:26] <freyja> that's always the question future ;) [21:26] <hermy647> ya [21:26] <ProngsPatronus> sometimes, it is [21:26] <MrMcGonagall> I think that's what we have to weigh in our decisions, FW. [21:26] <Islwyn13> agreed [21:26] <harryfreak359> yeah [21:26] <harryfreak359> agreed [21:26] <hermy647> yea [21:26] <ProngsPatronus> but it had better be one heck of a navel orange! [21:26] <MrMcGonagall> Sometimes the juice is worth the squeeze, and sometimes not. [21:26] <Islwyn13> Umbridge, for exxample, wrote a decree forbidding anyone to read the Quibbler interview with Harry... [21:27] <fawkes28> does fudge have a system of checks and balance in the MoM?? i don't think he does [21:27] <Islwyn13> how should teh students have responded? [21:27] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [21:27] <Islwyn13> to whom could they have appealed to lawfully get the decree removed? [21:27] <harryfreak359> wb Sooner! [21:27] <gryffindelle> wb sooner [21:27] <Islwyn13> tehre was no one, because the system tehy were in was corrupt [21:27] <MrMcGonagall> Tyranny always collapses in upon itself. [21:27] <SoonerGryffindor> thanks guys [21:27] <ProngsPatronus> ooo--wb! [21:27] <Islwyn13> so they practiced civil disobedience, and read it anyway smile [21:27] <Aislinn> good example Islwyn [21:27] <freyja> greetings again sooner [21:27] <MrMcGonagall> Well, there must be some checks and balances. He is booted in the end. [21:28] <memyslfnI> good Point Mr. M [21:28] <Islwyn13> true, because the truth came out [21:28] <MrMcGonagall> Oooh, I just realized I had a double entendre. [21:28] <freyja> but what of the "bigger" tyrant, LV? [21:28] <Aislinn> LOL Mr M [21:28] <ProngsPatronus> I just think his door didn't open for him one morning... [21:28] <Islwyn13> partly because Harry broke the rules smile [21:28] <CarpeDiem> lol ProngsPatronus [21:29] <fawkes28> true mr. m but he does seem to have free reign a lot of the time [21:29] <ProngsPatronus> but we look at this from behind the harry filter [21:29] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, although he doesn't succeed in getting Harry expelled from Hogwarts. Overruled by the Wizengamot! [21:29] <futureweasley> Rules that were their for his own safety, and the safety of his peers [21:29] <ProngsPatronus> and we know how terrible our harry is about details [21:29] <Islwyn13> another example, if Harry hadn't had DD to bail him out of the Ministry trial in OotP, he could very well have found himself imprisoned for FOLLOWINg teh law [21:29] <fawkes28> Does the wizarding world seem more or less ethical than the Muggle world? [21:29] <Aislinn> I don't believe that much in the harry filter [21:29] <Islwyn13> shouldn't he fight any way he could to get away? [21:29] <SoonerGryffindor> the same [21:30] <Aislinn> but that is for another topic [21:30] <ProngsPatronus> he didn't know he had been guarded all that time at Privet drive [21:30] <SoonerGryffindor> I think JKR has written the wizarding world to relfect a lot on our world [21:30] <Aislinn> good point islwyn [21:30] <MrMcGonagall> I think it's about the same, really. Same issues. [21:30] <fawkes28> i think it could be considered the same [21:30] <memyslfnI> yes SoonerG! [21:30] <Tanaqui> i agree, sooner [21:30] <futureweasley> well, I think the Muggle world is morally bankrupt, so the wizarding world has GOT to be better [21:30] <gryffindelle> about the same i think [21:30] <SoonerGryffindor> lol fw [21:30] <freyja> i think it is the same as the muggle world...it is just that their actions involve magica nd can therefore have more dire (and more wonderful) consequences [21:30] <CarpeDiem> Well said Sooner. Wizarding world is so beleiveable because it is so similar [21:30] <fawkes28> take away the magic and you still have pretty much the same things going on [21:30] <MrMcGonagall> But is it, FW? [21:30] <futureweasley> no, likely not [21:30] <harryfreak359> I think it is the same really [21:31] <ProngsPatronus> actually, I think that there is a plague on both houses, FW [21:31] <MrMcGonagall> I think wizards have the same human foibles as Muggles. [21:31] <SoonerGryffindor> right. They are all the same people, they just have magic. [21:31] <MrMcGonagall> Well put, Prongs. [21:31] <memyslfnI> Swift himself!A satirist worthy of [21:31] *** hermy647 has quit [Bye] [21:31] <Tanaqui> plus many muggles 'join' the wizarding world bring their troubles with them [21:31] *** hermy647 has joined #lounge [21:31] <fawkes28> well, maybe at this point in time the muggle world is looking a lot more ethical than the wizarding world ;) [21:31] <Aislinn> I think that JKR has done an impressive job of illustrating our ethical dilemnas, by couching them in this fantastical world [21:31] <gryffindelle> lag... [21:31] <hermy647> me2 [21:31] <futureweasley> PP, I haven't told you since Room 101 that I love you!!! [21:31] <SoonerGryffindor> agreed Aislin [21:31] <freyja> agreed mr m...those foibles mean we are human...and i think JKR deals very deeply with human ethics, regardless of magical status [21:31] <futureweasley> your language skills and imagery are just enlightened [21:32] <ProngsPatronus> no, you haven't---and I have missed that! [21:32] <CarpeDiem> Sooner you're right and with magic they also have increased moral and ethical problems [21:32] <gryffindelle> yes ais [21:32] <fawkes28> to build on that aislinn, we all wish we could live in a world that had magic but jo shows us that they have the same problems as we do and it really isnt all that different [21:32] * ProngsPatronus loves warm fuzzies [21:32] <SoonerGryffindor> right CD, their problems are just a little different [21:32] <MrMcGonagall> I loved the end of Chapter One in HBP. [21:32] <Aislinn> right fawkes [21:32] <Islwyn13> quite true [21:32] <harryfreak359> what part MrMcG? [21:32] <hermy647> true I guess living as a wizard doesnt mean youl grow problem free [21:33] <MrMcGonagall> Magic can't solve all the problems, because the bad guys use it, too. [21:33] * harryfreak359 is having memory problems tonight [21:33] <Islwyn13> testing [21:33] <Islwyn13> keeps not displaying what I type sad' [21:33] <harryfreak359> ahh, right! [21:33] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M [21:33] <harryfreak359> I see you Islwyn! [21:33] <Aislinn> we see you islwyn [21:33] <SoonerGryffindor> very true Mr M [21:33] <SoonerGryffindor> bye Isl [21:33] <futureweasley> Hey guys, we're wrapping up. Please don't forget to vote for next week's WWW topic here: http://www.leakylounge.com/forums.html#entry988259 [21:33] <Islwyn13> thanks, hf and Aislinn smile [21:33] <freyja> also...JKR does not exempt the Dursleys from the moral microscope either [21:33] <gryffindelle> ok [21:33] <Islwyn13> yeah, I need to go sad [21:33] <hermy647> kay [21:33] <SoonerGryffindor> well, we are done guys [21:33] <Islwyn13> I LOVED this chat, thank you so much, guys! [21:33] <harryfreak359> bye! sad [21:33] <hermy647> bye [21:34] <memyslfnI> fun1 I havent donr this in ages..Thanks all you chatters! [21:34] <CarpeDiem> Somebody PM Aislinn again, it worked last time! smile [21:34] * harryfreak359 hugs Islwyn [21:34] <Aislinn> This has been the most awesome chat! [21:34] * fawkes28 rounds the troops up for a huge group hug [21:34] <Islwyn13> and *hugs futureweasley* [21:34] <MrMcGonagall> I'm so gald we extended the chat! [21:34] <harryfreak359> lol [21:34] <MrMcGonagall> glad* [21:34] <freyja> BAH! LAG! [21:34] <hermy647> bye [21:34] <harryfreak359> me too [21:34] <Islwyn13> you made good arguments, you really did smile [21:34] <Aislinn> thanks to everyone for your fascinating contributions [21:34] <gryffindelle> i should go, but this was really an awesome chat, thanks [21:34] <harryfreak359> it needed it [21:34] <ProngsPatronus> *sigh*--this has been the best meat for my starving brain since last week! [21:34] * MrMcGonagall gives everyone a squoodge. [21:34] <SoonerGryffindor> awesome chat everyone [21:34] <harryfreak359> I think we could go on for hours... [21:34] * futureweasley jumps in on the dogpile [21:34] <gryffindelle> it was a great topic [21:34] <memyslfnI> I will try to drop by more often..I need to type faster though [21:34] <Islwyn13> Huggles all! [21:34] <Islwyn13> wave! [21:34] * SoonerGryffindor runs and jumps in the pile [21:34] <fawkes28> we could but i need to get sooner's boots out soon [21:34] <hermy647> me 2 hardly say anything [21:34] <CarpeDiem> Bye Islwyn [21:34] <Islwyn13> argh! [21:34] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [21:34] <memyslfnI> see you all! Bye1 [21:35] <MrMcGonagall> See you all on Saturday at the RG chat! [21:35] <Islwyn13> I thnk I broke a rib! [21:35] <fawkes28> smile [21:35] *** HPotterExpert2 has quit [Bye] [21:35] * harryfreak359 jumps into group hug [21:35] <Islwyn13> Bye! [21:35] <freyja> 'nite all [21:35] * ProngsPatronus thinks group hugs are in order! [21:35] <futureweasley> see you in room 10 Islwyn [21:35] *** Islwyn13 left #lounge [] [21:35] <hermy647> sleep tite [21:35] <fawkes28> thanks for the great chat everyone [21:35] *** MrMcGonagall left #lounge [] [21:35] <Aislinn> hugs to all! [21:35] <SoonerGryffindor> nite everyone [21:35] * harryfreak359 give everyone a big hug [21:35] <hermy647> nite [21:35] <futureweasley> goodnight guys..thanks for coming and arguing with me!! [21:35] <CarpeDiem> Agreed, great chat all! Good night! [21:35] <fawkes28> good night [21:35] <ProngsPatronus> le best yet [21:35] <harryfreak359> lol Future [21:35] <SoonerGryffindor> lol fw [21:35] <fawkes28> leave in peace without the boots...you can do it! [21:35] <hermy647> bye [21:35] <harryfreak359> hehehehe [21:35] *** CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [21:35] *** memyslfnI left #lounge [] [21:36] * SoonerGryffindor starts shuffling toward the door [21:36] <hermy647> squeee [21:36] * gryffindelle gives everyone a big hug [21:36] * SoonerGryffindor starts pushing people out the door [21:36] * harryfreak359 nearly falls out of the door by being pushed [21:36] * fawkes28 hits harryfreak with the steel toed boots first [21:36] <ProngsPatronus> always a pleasure, fW [21:36] <gryffindelle> especially the mods, those were great questions [21:36] *** Tanaqui left #lounge [] [21:36] * harryfreak359 runs away screaming [21:36] *** freyja has quit [Bye] [21:36] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [21:36] <hermy647> owww [21:36] <fawkes28> LOL [21:36] <harryfreak359> biggrin [21:36] <gryffindelle> lets give them a big round of applause [21:37] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry guys, but I had to give her back the boots [21:37] <SoonerGryffindor> thanks gryffindelle [21:37] <harryfreak359> lol [21:37] <harryfreak359> thanks sooner [21:37] <SoonerGryffindor> now shoo!!! [21:37] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [21:37] <gryffindelle> *go mods!!* [21:37] * fawkes28 really starts kicking with those boots now [21:37] <HPotterExpert2> is it over? I'm so out of it [21:37] <harryfreak359> lol [21:37] <gryffindelle> bye [21:37] *** gryffindelle left #lounge [] [21:37] <harryfreak359> fawkes is more dangerous with the boots, [21:37] <fawkes28> haha [21:37] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [21:37] *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [21:37] * ProngsPatronus claps wildly for the wonderful mods [21:37] * futureweasley cranks JoJo's "Leave (Get Out)" on the stereo [21:37] <fawkes28> yes, it is over [21:38] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [21:38] <HPotterExpert2> ohh [21:38] <Aislinn> ok, the lights are being turned out now [21:38] <HPotterExpert2> wow [21:38] <HPotterExpert2> so lost [21:38] * SoonerGryffindor flicks the lights [21:38] <futureweasley> thanks Prongs...you aren't so bad yourself [21:38] <fawkes28> thanks for coming [21:38] <hermy647> mphhh [21:38] <HPotterExpert2> bye [21:38] <HPotterExpert2> you guys rule [21:38] <SoonerGryffindor> bye [21:38] <futureweasley> bye bye [21:38] <futureweasley> thanks [21:38] <ProngsPatronus> *sigh* [21:38] *** HPotterExpert2 has quit [Bye] [21:38] <ProngsPatronus> nighty nite [21:39] <futureweasley> goodnight [21:39] *** ProngsPatronus left #lounge [] [21:40] *** hermy647 has quit [Bye] This post has been edited by Aislinn: Nov 3 2006, 08:22 PM |
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