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Cultural Q & A, Discuss Regency culture and ask your questions here.
Pyxis
post Apr 11 2008, 10:49 AM
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Pride and Prejudice is set during the Regency period of England, a time of strict social and cultural rules. The purpose of this thread is to explore the time period in order to better understand the novel by placing it in it's social context. If you have a question, ask it here. If you have the time to research, please share your knowledge. And if you are a world famous Jane Austen expert...this is the place for you! biggrin.gif

Feel free to share your resources, but please keep in mind that this is a discussion forum, posting lengthy essays tends to limit conversation. Instead, we want to hear what you discovered and why you found it important.

I found a really great site, which I have unfortunately been unable to peruse as much as I would like. It is called Jane Austen's World, and it looks very interesting.

I'll start with a couple of questions of my own...

* What exactly is an entail, and how does it work?
* What was the social standing of women at the time? Could they own property, or did it have to be controlled by a male relative?
* Why, why, why do they do this "He was born in --------shire"? *it drives me nuts!* tongue.gif


This post has been edited by Pyxis: Apr 17 2008, 10:29 PM
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Dreamteam
post Apr 20 2008, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 11 2008, 04:49 PM) *
* What exactly is an entail, and how does it work?
* What was the social standing of women at the time? Could they own property, or did it have to be controlled by a male relative?
* Why, why, why do they do this "He was born in --------shire"? *it drives me nuts!* tongue.gif

To answer two of these:
Entail means that, on the death of the occupier, property could only be passed on to a specified type of descendent, such as male, female, or with a particular surname within the family, etc. Mr Bennet didn't own the estate outright, it had come to him from his father because of the entail which specified that it could only be passed down through male heirs. If the Bennets had had a son it would have gone to him but, as they didn't, it had to go to their nearest male relative. What would happen if Mr Bennet had had no brothers or if those brothers had no sons would also be set out in the will, it may have passed to a male in Mr Bennet's uncle's family or even to the eldest female.

"He was born in --------shire" is used because it was common for authors at the time to create a sense of realism by "masking" the exact name of a place to suggest that they were referring to a real place but wanting to protect the identity and privacy of the real people there. Nowadays when authors use real place names and locations they tend to use a disclaimer to explain that the people, and sometimes exact locations (e.g. buildings etc) are fictional.


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Mused
post Apr 20 2008, 08:42 PM
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So, who comes up with the original details of the entail if it's not Mr. Bennet? Who makes the rules for a particular estate? When are the rules drawn up? Why are different estates entailed differently? Lady Catherine's comment leads me to believe that it doesn't have to be this way.

This is something that I've always only halfway understood.

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Pyxis
post Apr 21 2008, 09:02 AM
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So, I did some snooping and found some stuff on entails to add to what Dreamteam already enlightened us about...

According to The Columbia Encyclopedia here an estate was entailed to prevent it from falling apart as it was divided equally among heirs, and was generally in effect for several generations. It sounds like the original "entailer" (I'm not a lawyer, so don't be disappointed if I'm not incredibly technical here tongue.gif ) made a decision that the property needed to stay as one piece, which makes sense if you have people farming on your property and you don't want them to be displaced, so they controlled the rights to inheritance by making possession of the property conditional. Now, why a property was not eligible to be passed to a female heir is still a mystery to me, unless that was purely the decision of the "entailer". In which case, I can understand Mrs. Bennet's resentment of the situation.

Reading more about entails in Wiki...I know, not the most reliable resource, but I find it easy to understand...it is theDe donis conditionalibus chapter of the English Statutes of Westminster, passed 1285, which originated the law of entail. According to the Wiki article above:
QUOTE
The operation of the statute soon produced innumerable evils : " children, it is said, grew disobedient when they knew they could not be set aside ; farmers were deprived of their leases; creditors were defrauded of their debts; innumerable latent entails were produced to deprive purchasers of the land they had fairly bought; treasons also were encouraged, as estates tail were not liable to forfeiture longer than for the tenant's life " (Williams, Real Property). On the other hand, by limiting inheritance to the eldest son, the other issue were forced to seek employment elsewhere, thus, it has been argued, preventing the growth of a landed caste. The professions of the church, the army and the law were constantly recruited from the younger sons of landed families, preventing the gap between nobility and the rest.


Interesting, eh?

Which brings me to my next question, what was the political, social, and economic standing of women? Why would the original entailer choose to disqualify female heirs?

Edited to add: Another question.

I am confused about the "titles" of English society and what they mean. We have Sir William Lucas, who has a title but is poor. How did he get this title? Darcy doesn't have a title, neither does Bingley, but they seem to garner more respect. What is 'higher' a Baron or a Knight, and does a Duke trump them all? What is Bennets social position, as he has neither title nor much money?


This post has been edited by Pyxis: Apr 21 2008, 09:22 AM
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post Apr 21 2008, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 21 2008, 03:02 PM) *
Which brings me to my next question, what was the political, social, and economic standing of women? Why would the original entailer choose to disqualify female heirs?

Well, until the 1882 Married Women's property act, a married woman's property would become her husband's possesion. (apart from some small things called "paraphernalia".) So perhaps the passing on of property to the daughters would mean that it passed out of the family when she married (which she would be expected to do).

Well, politically, women couldn't vote, and couldn't stand as a member of parliament. The first woman to take a seat in parliament was Lady Nancy Astor, in 1919. Although she was not the first woman to be elected - this was Constance Markievicz who was a member of Sinn Fein and so never took her seat. Women in Britain got the vote in 1918, although this was not all women, or all men.


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chiara515
post Apr 21 2008, 01:24 PM
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Just to warn you all, this is definitely not a carefully researched post, because I am at work, but I did have some thoughts...

QUOTE
"He was born in --------shire" is used because it was common for authors at the time to create a sense of realism by "masking" the exact name of a place to suggest that they were referring to a real place but wanting to protect the identity and privacy of the real people there.


I never knew that that was used as a "privacy" thing, but it shows up soooo frequently, and it has always bugged me, too! Thanks for the info, Dreamteam!

About entailing - I have seen entailed property discussed so many times in novels that I assumed is was just the norm. I didn't know that there were different ways that a property could be entailed; everything I've read about it (yes, always fiction) involved the nearest male heir. And I think the idea was still in effect well into the 20th century, as it is definitely discussed in Dorothy Sayers, and it even comes up in a few Agatha Christie and Ngaio Marsh novels...

In the last Dorothy Sayers short story (the one with the kids and the stolen peaches), there is a discussion about Peter's property being entailed, and Miss Quirk says that she thinks that dividing the property like they do in France is so much better for the kids, to which Harriet responds, "Yes, but it's bad for the property," or something like that. (Yes, I know it is completely sick that I remember that off the top of my head...) That would have been right before WWII. Point being, I wouldn't necessarily take that character's opinion as gospel truth, but maybe entailment was not as prevalent in other parts of Europe, or at least did not last as long.

It was very common for second sons, especially second sons in very high-standing families, to enter the church. I am less familiar with England specifically, but a couple of centuries earlier in Continental Europe, second sons of kings or important duchies would frequently become bishops or cardinals or other high-ranking church officials, so they were still "aristocracy" if you will, but in a different arena. And weren't second sons frequently given an "allowance", for lack of a better way to put it, so they did have an income, if not land?

I think the whole land vs. money is another disconnect that we have with that era. It seems to me (again, just from reading way too many books), that the two were seen rather differently. Something for me to research when I get home... tongue.gif

I certainly don't know a whole lot about the heirarchy of titles - like I said, I just read a lot - but I think that some titles are given, while others you are just born into. Aren't knights given their title for doing something? I think there is some overlap in titles, too, right? Like "sir" would be a knight, but aren't there people with other titles who are called "sir"? A marquis is "Lord So-and-so", I think, but, to go back to Dorothy Sayers (hint, hint, could we discuss those sometime...?? smile.gif ), Peter was "Lord Peter", and he was the second son of a duke... So, yeah, I don't really understand how it works, either, but I do think that titles fall somewhere into that mix of something that was seen a bit differently, too. There are lots of stories (especially set later) where families with titles have lost a lot of money, but they are still respected as being high-standing members of society. Another thing for me to look up... smile.gif


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Dreamteam
post Apr 21 2008, 04:38 PM
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Entails were usually set up to pass property to the eldest son, although there were other ways to do it, probably to ensure that property, and any inherited titles, stayed within the family name.

Titles - hmm, this is huge. This is a site with a lot of info about British nobility, far too much to copy and paste here, so I think the best thing would be to give the link here, this page in particular gives the lists of precedence for men and women, again its much too long to copy and paste (for instances there are seven different types of Knight). Bear in mind that these were titles in use in 1818.

This is a more condensed list from the BBC, the highlights of which are:

Gentlemen
QUOTE
The main distinguishing characteristic of a gentleman was that he did not work for a wage. In other words, gentlemen were non-landed3 individuals without a trade or occupation but with an income. In practice, this generally meant that they owned land, but this was a private matter and not official rule or governance of that land, which would most likely be ruled by a landed noble. One could also be a gentleman by the support of a stipend from a higher-ranking noble in return for services such as being a scribe, astrologer, or someone with another sort of academic skill. Doctors were also gentlemen, and were careful not to be considered professionals. 'Doctor' was originally an academic title that simply means 'teacher', and the use of the term indicates that they saw themselves as academics rather than professionals, unlike surgeons, who performed actual surgery and were commoners.


Esquires

Knights - The female equivalent of a Knight is a Dame but the wife of a knight would use the title "Lady", the husband of a Dame has no title. Knight titles are not hereditary.

Baronets

Barons

Viscounts

Counts

Marquis

Duke

Grand Duke

Archduke

Prince

King

Emperor

I tried to pull out basic explanatory details but it began to get a little too complicated round about "Baron" so its probably better that you follow the link and read the details. Hope that's a start smile.gif












http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2791929#footnote4


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Mused
post Apr 21 2008, 05:32 PM
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Carol Howard says in her endnotes to the novel that Mr. Lucas acted as mayor. This lead him to address the king with the concerns of those he represented. So, civic duty earned him the knighthood. He gets to be "Sir," and Mrs. Lucas gets to be "Lady," but the next generation have no titles. Lady Lucas is a different kind of Lady than Lady Catherine.

I don't know how to do those quote boxes. Could someone direct me to a place where I could learn? I'd like to be able to give credit where it's due.

I've got another question. This was an era with strict conservative rules of behavior. How much of the body was considered acceptable? I know women's fashions were all based on classical Greek ideals, but that doesn't seem to fit my idea of the social customs. I mean, men and women were only allowed to touch under very specific circumstances, yet, I've seen some quite low necklines. And, while you would never give your friend's wife a foot massage, these period dramas give me the impression that these toga-like gowns were often very revealing. This could be inaccurate, though.

Do we have any experts out there?


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post Apr 22 2008, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE(Mused @ Apr 21 2008, 06:32 PM) *
I've got another question. This was an era with strict conservative rules of tbehavior. How much of the body was considered acceptable? I know women's fashions were all based on classical Greek ideals, but that doesn't seem to fit my idea of the social customs. I mean, men and women were only allowed to touch under very specific circumstances, yet, I've seen some quite low necklines. And, while you would never give your friend's wife a foot massage, these period dramas give me the impression that these toga-like gowns were often very revealing. This could be inaccurate, though.

Do we have any experts out there?

I find the answer best articulated here.
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Mused
post Apr 22 2008, 05:16 PM
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Thanks for the link, Essence! The differentiation between day and evening wear was helpful.

I knew there was a reason I loved that Ang Lee and Emma Thompson movie! I feel like they did a lot of research.


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Pyxis
post Apr 23 2008, 01:23 AM
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That was a great link, Essence, thanks!

Also, thanks to Dreamteam for the title rundown.

More questions...

What is with the custom of men and women separating after dinner? What did the guys do, how long did the separation last, and what is the purpose?

What exactly does it mean to "purchase a living" or be "given a living"? I am under the impression that men could "buy" into the church like a franchise or something (no disrespect intended, I couldn't think of a better way to describe my thinking).

What about the regiments of soldiers moving around all the time? It seems like this was one stationed, on duty in this small town, then they all up and moved to a lovely vacation resort.
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Amontillada
post Apr 23 2008, 08:15 AM
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QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Apr 21 2008, 04:38 PM) *
Entails were usually set up to pass property to the eldest son, although there were other ways to do it, probably to ensure that property, and any inherited titles, stayed within the family name.

Titles - hmm, this is huge. This is a site with a lot of info about British nobility, far too much to copy and paste here, so I think the best thing would be to give the link here, this page in particular gives the lists of precedence for men and women, again its much too long to copy and paste (for instances there are seven different types of Knight). Bear in mind that these were titles in use in 1818.


You're right, it is huge! Quickly, the ranks of British nobility (listed from the highest rank down) are:
  • Duke/Duchess
  • Marquis (sometimes spelled Marquess)/Marchioness
  • Earl/Countess
  • Viscount/Viscountess
  • Baron/Baroness
  • Baronet/[I don't know what the term for female counterpart or wife of a Baronet is]
  • Knight/Lady [Women counterparts of knights are called "Dame," as in "Dame Maggie Smith," but I don't think any women had been so honoured at the Austen period.]

Both Baronets and Knights are called "Sir [First name]," and a woman whose husband is either is called "Lady," as in "Sir William and Lady Lucas." The use of "Sir" for two ranks can make it extremely confusing, as readers have found with Sir William!

The use of "Lord" and "Lady" is even more confusing! Those terms are sometimes used in place of a specific rank (Nancy, Viscountess Astor was generally referred to as Nancy, Lady Astor). However, they are also used for the children of high-ranking nobility; so a character named, for example, "Lord John Smythe," would be John Smythe, son of the Marquis of Someplace-or-Other.

This was less confusing for readers in early-nineteenth-century England, since they were more accustomed to this elaborate etiquette than are modern English readers, let alone Americans and other readers from nations without hereditary nobility.


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Acrux
post Apr 23 2008, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 23 2008, 06:23 PM) *
More questions...

What exactly does it mean to "purchase a living" or be "given a living"? I am under the impression that men could "buy" into the church like a franchise or something (no disrespect intended, I couldn't think of a better way to describe my thinking).
As I understand it a clergyman lives of the (weekly?) donations/offeringings/tithes of his parishioners in the same way that merchants (like Mrs Bennet's brother, Mr Gardiner and the forefathers of the Bingleys) live off the profits of their trading activities, and that land-owners (Mr Bennet, Mr Darcy) live off the income of the farm(s) (etc.) they own. If the population of a parish and its level of affulence is stable then its income should be fairly constant and is often referred to as a per annum value in the same way that income from land (and some investments) are.

Unlike businesses and land, the 'occupier' of a parish is not an inherited position but one that someone is assigned to. Whether the assigner is the local lord/landowner or the Anglican Church (either acquiescing to the lord's/andowner's will or in response to a financial contribution) is not clear, at least to me.

Note that at this point in history the Church is no less a suitable profession (ie not particularly seen as a 'calling') for upper-class gentlemen than the Navy, Army, Law, and possibly even Medicine. So purchasing a position in it may be no stranger than becoming an officer in the Army by purchasing a commission.


QUOTE
What about the regiments of soldiers moving around all the time? It seems like this was one stationed, on duty in this small town, then they all up and moved to a lovely vacation resort.
Much of England's standing army is engaged in or mobilised for the warring in Europe (Napoléon etc). Revolutionary and reformist movements are growing in strength and profile. The population is divided over things like who to side with and/or how much to get involved in the fighting. On top of all that is the fact that 'civilian' police forces do not exist yet.

So with the army away, its job of policing the countryside and keeping the peace falls to the militia (units of army reservists, the numbers of which are significantly increased because of the prospect of war) who, in addition to going to places where trouble is being caused, seem to be moved around the country, presumably to increase their effective coverage as well as to limit the burden to the community of supporting them.

- Acrux



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post Apr 26 2008, 06:10 PM
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I have a question for you cultural gurus out there.

When we first hear of Mr Collins's letter to Mr Bennet, he says: 'About a month ago I received this letter; and about a fortnight ago I answered it, for I thought it a case of some delicacy, and requiring early attention.'

Now to me a fortnight between getting a letter and answering it isn't 'early' attention at all. So my question is: is this usual for the time (ie that 2 weeks constitutes a hasty reply) or is this an example (as I have often thought) of Mr Bennet's lazy ways. That he thinks 2 weeks is quick for a response seems silly to me, but I'm not sure of the cultural attitudes to letter writing so I can't be sure. It's always struck me as funny, but I could be doing Mr Bennet a huge injustice lol.gif


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post Apr 27 2008, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE(Sethtaylorsummer @ Apr 27 2008, 11:10 AM) *
I have a question for you cultural gurus out there.

When we first hear of Mr Collins's letter to Mr Bennet, he says: 'About a month ago I received this letter; and about a fortnight ago I answered it, for I thought it a case of some delicacy, and requiring early attention.'
To me this is a classic example of Mr Bennet's ironic sense of humor at work. I don't think that he genuinely believes that taking two weeks to answer a letter could be accurately called "early attention". In this particular case I suspect that he didn't consider the matter to urgent at all. He seems well enough aware of the proper social customs (e.g. calling on Mr Bingley shortly after his arrival in the neighborhood) but he also seems to delight in appearing negligent in this regard.

Notice that he deliberately doesn't tell anyone about the impending arrival until it is only a few hours away. Perhaps he likes 'vexing' anyone who is unfortunate enough to actually take him seriously.

- Acrux


This post has been edited by Acrux: Apr 27 2008, 03:10 AM


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post Apr 27 2008, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE(Acrux @ Apr 27 2008, 09:08 AM) *
QUOTE(Sethtaylorsummer @ Apr 27 2008, 11:10 AM) *
I have a question for you cultural gurus out there.

When we first hear of Mr Collins's letter to Mr Bennet, he says: 'About a month ago I received this letter; and about a fortnight ago I answered it, for I thought it a case of some delicacy, and requiring early attention.'
To me this is a classic example of Mr Bennet's ironic sense of humor at work. I don't think that he genuinely believes that taking two weeks to answer a letter could be accurately called "early attention". In this particular case I suspect that he didn't consider the matter to urgent at all. He seems well enough aware of the proper social customs (e.g. calling on Mr Bingley shortly after his arrival in the neighborhood) but he also seems to delight in appearing negligent in this regard.

Notice that he deliberately doesn't tell anyone about the impending arrival until it is only a few hours away. Perhaps he likes 'vexing' anyone who is unfortunate enough to actually take him seriously.

- Acrux


I agree Acrux, I've always seen it as Mr Bennet's sense of humour, I think he's showing that he didn't consider it needed an early reply at all. He didn't get on well with his brother and he knows that Mr Collins is visiting with an eye to acquiring the property in the future so is quite happy to keep him waiting.


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Pyxis
post Apr 28 2008, 09:56 PM
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More questions...

It seems like the world hasn't changed much, as it appears transportation was as much of a status symbol in Austen's time as it is in ours. I was wondering, I read different descriptions of carriages, barouches, etc. and I wonder what the difference is between them. Also, I assume going "post" is riding in a carriage with the mail or something. I wonder if it is considered a "lower class" way to go, as Lady Catherine seemed concerned that the ladies might be going alone.

I also wonder what the London "season" is. Much seems to be made about being "in town" for this season, when exactly is that and what was the purpose? I gather that it is a round of parties, dances, and meals...but why is it more important to be there at a specific time of year?

What is involved with "coming out"?

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post Apr 29 2008, 12:15 AM
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i always figured the post was like taking the greyhound huh.gif
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post Apr 29 2008, 07:51 AM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 29 2008, 02:56 AM) *
More questions...

It seems like the world hasn't changed much, as it appears transportation was as much of a status symbol in Austen's time as it is in ours. I was wondering, I read different descriptions of carriages, barouches, etc. and I wonder what the difference is between them. Also, I assume going "post" is riding in a carriage with the mail or something. I wonder if it is considered a "lower class" way to go, as Lady Catherine seemed concerned that the ladies might be going alone.

I also wonder what the London "season" is. Much seems to be made about being "in town" for this season, when exactly is that and what was the purpose? I gather that it is a round of parties, dances, and meals...but why is it more important to be there at a specific time of year?

What is involved with "coming out"?

I think going "by post" meant a post-chaise which was a type of carraige, there's a good explanation here about it, but it seems to have been a safer means of travel for single women than the usual stage coaches and did cost a bit more, although Lady Catherine is still concerned and doesn't want them to travel alone, a woman travelling alone would have been a sign of inferiority.

The "London season" was (and probably still is for the aristocracy) from sometime in spring - usually around Easter - until the beginning of the grouse shooting season in August, known as the glorious 12th (although I think the "glory" is more to do with blood sports than the weather). The shooting season means being where the wildlife is, which obviously is the countryside, and there would be houseparties where people would visit for the shooting and stay for a weekend, a week or more, but when that's over its a time to sit back and recover from all the activity of the season, and prepare for Christmas, the New Year and the next season.

"Coming out" is when a young woman reaches marriageable age and is introduced to society and attends balls, parties, etc during the "season" with the intention of being introduced to eligible men - it still happens today among the upper classes - it was considered very bad manners to speak without having been introduced first by a mutual acquaintance. In Austen's time girls would be expected to find a husband in the first 3-4 years or be considered a failure in society. Quite often younger girls would have to wait until their elder sisters were out and, hopefully, engaged or married or were stepping back from society and the marriage market. I suppose with wars being fought there were probably more women than men and it was a way of not "flooding the market". This is why Lady Catherine is so shocked that all of Elizabeth's sisters are "out", "even the younger ones", she would think it irresponsible of Mrs Bennet to expose them in that way and inhibit possible proposals for the Elizabeth and Jane. By the time they reached Charlotte Lucas's age unmarried women were approaching a state of being unacceptable for marriage to any man of consequence. Daughters of high ranking families, such as dukes, earls, lords etc and daughters of certain professional men such as barristers, admirals, generals, etc would begin their first season by being presented to the Queen.


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Pyxis
post Apr 29 2008, 08:06 PM
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Wow, Dreamteam! Fascinating. I wonder if another reason to keep younger sisters back until the elder were settled was to prevent direct competition between sisters.

In researching the carriage stuff, I stumbled across this interesting site, which has all kinds of interesting tidbits of cultural information. I thought I would share this quote about letters and correspondence, as it was something I had never heard of...
QUOTE
One important rule of protocol of the period is that a correspondence between two unmarried and marriageable unrelated young people of the opposite sex is a sign that the two are engaged. So Elinor Dashwood in Jane Austen's novel Sense and Sensibility, when she sees a letter from Edward Ferrars to Lucy Steele, thinks "a correspondence between them by letter could subsist only under a positive engagement, could be authorised by nothing else", and, when she is unsure whether or not Willoughby and Marianne are engaged, says "If we find they correspond, every fear of mine will be removed". Similarly, Captain Wentworth says to Anne Elliot in Persuasion: "...if I had then written to you, would you have answered my letter? would you, in short, have renewed the engagement then?" (i.e., she likely would have answered the letter only if she had also decided to renew the engagement). And since Mary Crawford and Edmund Bertram in Mansfield Park could not legitimately correspond, the correspondence between Fanny Price and Mary Crawford is used as a conduit between them.

This rule isn't so rigid as to prevent Elinor Dashwood in Sense and Sensibility from starting to write a one-off letter to Edward Ferrars (which was to be more a business than a social letter, to someone who could be considered a relative of hers by marriage); however, for a continuing correspondence to be carried on in the absence of an engagement is a breach of propriety (a significant point in Marianne's conduct in Sense and Sensibility -- though Jane Austen dismisses the topic more lightly at the end of Northanger Abbey). This is why Darcy thinks it advisable to hand-deliver his famous letter to Elizabeth (since it would be awkward if anyone at Rosings or Hunsford Parsonage were to see a letter addressed from him to Elizabeth); and it is an important reason why Elizabeth doesn't answer the letter.


Which explains why Molly never wrote to Roger in Elizabeth Gaskell's Wives and Daughters, and had to make do with bits from Cynthia's letters.


This post has been edited by Pyxis: Apr 29 2008, 08:10 PM
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ArtemisiaJolie
post Apr 30 2008, 12:36 AM
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That's interesting, I always thought the London season was the winter months, when being close to town made it easier to attend balls and such. Not that I had any real basis for that assumption, but I'm happy to be corrected. biggrin.gif

I did wonder, about the entailment, if one of the sisters had produced a son, would it then have reverted back to the Bennet family? It seems like it should, if it the guidelines were to stay in that particular family line.


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post May 1 2008, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ Apr 30 2008, 01:06 AM) *
In researching the carriage stuff, I stumbled across this interesting site, which has all kinds of interesting tidbits of cultural information.
That's a really good site Pyxis, I read further down and there were some notes on transport including this snippet
QUOTE
Post: Traveling by changing horses at posting stations (inns) along the way (rather than using one's own horses), for greater speed.
which explains the phrase "post haste" meaning "quickly", I've always wondered what that meant lol.gif


This post has been edited by Dreamteam: May 1 2008, 06:15 AM


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March's Book Nook: The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge/Skellig by David Almond
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS,
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post May 4 2008, 03:36 PM
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There's talk in the humor thread about Mr. Bennet being good for a laugh but not really such a great father.

What was the normal way to raise children? Should Mr. Bennet have spent more time with his daughters? What if they had been sons? The Bennets never had a governess. How much money was needed to support a governess? Mrs. Bennet may have taught her daughters embroidery and table-painting, but what was life like with five young girls around a table copying down their alphabet, working sums, and memorizing "the Roman emperors as low as Severus." (Mansfield Park makes me chuckle...)

What was early education like in the Austen-era, and how did it differ based on social situation?


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post May 7 2008, 10:42 AM
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I give up! I have searched and searched for information about a gentleman/father's customs and responsibilites towards his family relations and I am turning up zip...zero...zilch...nada. The things I can find about "gentlemen" of the era show that they were chiefly engaged in pleasure seeking, hunting, hanging out at the club, and entertaining a mistress on the side. It does appear from the books that it was primarily the mother's responsibility to see to the education of her children.

Speaking of education, the info I found about it here and here, says that women were generally educated at home by governesses. This was mainly a cultural education, meant to give them the tools necessary to be an asset to a husband. It included mainly a foreign language, and heavy on the arts of music, drawing, and dance.

The education of men...
QUOTE
Gentlemen would be educated at home by a governess or tutor until they were old enough to attend a public school. The curriculum was heavily weighted towards the classics - the languages and literature of Ancient Greece and Rome. After that, they would attend Oxford or Cambridge. Here they might also study mathematics, law, philosophy, and modern history. Oxford tended to produce more Members of Parliament and government officials, while Cambridge leaned more towards the sciences and produced more acclaimed scholars. It was not compulsory, either legally or socially, for a gentleman to attend school at all. He could, just as easily, be taught entirely at home. However, public school and University were the great staging grounds for public life, where you made your friends and developed the connections that would aid you later in life.


I did run across this list of social "don'ts"
QUOTE
Omitting to pay proper respect to company, on entering or leaving a room; or paying it only to one person, when more are present.
Entering a room with the hat on, and leaving it in the same manner.
Setting still on the entrance of your instructor, strangers, or parents.
Omitting the proper attention, when waited on by superiors.
Passing between the fire and persons sitting at it.
Whispering, or pointing in company, and staniding between the light and any person wanting it.
Contradicting your parents or strangers who are any way engaged in conversations.
Laughing loudly, when in company, and drumming with feet or hands.
Swinging the arms, and all other aukward gestures, especially in the street, and in company.
All actions that have the most remote tendency to indelicacy.
Leaning on the shoulder, or chair of another person, and overlooking persons who are writing or reading.
Throwing things instead of handing them, and crowding others in a passinge, or running against their elbows.
Contempt in looks, words, or actions, for a partner in dancing, or other persons.
All instances of that ill judged familiaritywhich breeds contempt.
Lolling on a chair when speaking or when spoken to, and looking persons earnestly in the face without any apparent cause.
Surliness of all kinds, especially on receiving a compliment
Distortion of countenance, and mimicry.
Ridicule of every kind, vice or folly
A constant smile or settled frown on the countenance.


biggrin.gif I laughed at how many times characters were breaking the 'rules' and I didn't even realize it! I also found a site that listed a woman's responsibilities towards her husband that was quite hilarious in context of our modern lives, but I lost it again. If I run across it, I will post the link here.
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post May 7 2008, 07:06 PM
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I found this about 19th century governessess which says
QUOTE
The yearly salary for a governess ranged from fifteen to one hundred pounds, the latter figure reflecting the wages of a very well-educated woman working for an extremely wealthy family. The average wage was generally considered low—between twenty to forty pounds per year, at a time when the typical agricultural wage hovered was thirty pounds per year.
I think one of the reasons for educating women by mothers at home was partly cost (even on low pay, five daughters would have cost more than one daughter to educate) that they mainly needed an education in looking after a household, looking good in society, to attract the right husband and be respectable in public and practical application, making things for the home etc. There wasn't much space for an academically educated woman.


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March's Book Nook: The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge/Skellig by David Almond
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS,
AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"

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post May 8 2008, 11:27 AM
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So I have a question about medicine and doctors. I was just watching Mesmer again (the fact that Alan Rickman stars as Franz Anton Mesmer is purely coincidental reallyreally) and I dont know how true to the real life of Doctor Mesmer it is but, I think it's set in a similar period to Jane Austen's writing. This is one of the few *period dramas* I've seen that focus so much on medicine, in fact the story is centered around physicians and medicine. I've seen in other movies (please dont throw things at me for watching the movie versions of books) where they bleed patients that are sick. Why was this considered helpful, and how was it supposed to cure anything?
It irritates me that Mesmer was opposed to bleeding and used magnet therapy (which is now hugely popular) and actually listened to people's problems & understood how trauma affects the mind which in turn affects the body, yet his colleagues labeled him a fraud and a charlatan despite the fact he cured a young woman's blindness, & they exiled him because he dared to question the accepted treatment, which seemed to be exclusively bleeding, like whether a person was sick or blind or having epileptic seizures, it was bleeding that was prescribed. Were there other therapies? I so would not have liked to live back then and gotten ill ohmy.gif


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post May 9 2008, 11:49 AM
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QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ May 8 2008, 10:27 AM) *
So I have a question about medicine and doctors. I was just watching Mesmer again (the fact that Alan Rickman stars as Franz Anton Mesmer is purely coincidental reallyreally) and I dont know how true to the real life of Doctor Mesmer it is but, I think it's set in a similar period to Jane Austen's writing. This is one of the few *period dramas* I've seen that focus so much on medicine, in fact the story is centered around physicians and medicine. I've seen in other movies (please dont throw things at me for watching the movie versions of books) where they bleed patients that are sick. Why was this considered helpful, and how was it supposed to cure anything?
It irritates me that Mesmer was opposed to bleeding and used magnet therapy (which is now hugely popular) and actually listened to people's problems & understood how trauma affects the mind which in turn affects the body, yet his colleagues labeled him a fraud and a charlatan despite the fact he cured a young woman's blindness, & they exiled him because he dared to question the accepted treatment, which seemed to be exclusively bleeding, like whether a person was sick or blind or having epileptic seizures, it was bleeding that was prescribed. Were there other therapies? I so would not have liked to live back then and gotten ill ohmy.gif

Have you seen Sense and Sensibility with Alan Rickman? *sigh*

As a medical professional, I thought this was very interesting to research. I found an index of Georgian terminology here that had some definitions of medical treatments of the time...

QUOTE
Medical Treatments--or tortures

*Bleeding--was a staple remedy for doctors in Georgian times. There was almost no understanding of the true cause and nature of disease. Bleeding was thought to purge the body of vile humors that caused the illness. One account of the treatment of an injury in a carriage accident, preserved in contemporary letters, leaves one wondering how the young man survived. His mother writes to her friend that after being injured when his phaeton overturned and loosing considerable amounts of blood, the doctor bled him repeatedly over the next 3 months and forbade all beef. The poor misguided mother seemed to have had absolute faith in the doctor. The young man must have had a strong constitution. He survived the 'medical' treatments.
*Blistering--was when a physician deliberately gave the patient a second degree burn and then lanced and drained the resulting blister. It was believed that the liquid in the blister contained the toxins that were causing the sickness and that the pain of blistering caused the patient's mind to focus on the new pain slowing the progress of the disease. These practices were thought to fight diseases, but, as we now know, these medical practices amounted to the needless torture of an already sick person.
*The Brunonian system--devised by Edinburgh physician John Brown rested on the supposition that disease was caused by weakness or inadequate stimulation of the organism and that stimulation should be increased through treatment with irritants.
*Fumigation -- The practice of having the patient breath the smoke or gases from a heated substance in the belief it would cure a disease. Substances used included: opium, deadly nightshade, iodine, sugar of lead, belladonna, digitalis, hellebore, aconite, dog-bane, tobacco, arsenic, antimony, niter, lobelia, and cinebar. Opium of course did offer the patient some relief from pain until it wore off. Of course it did nothing to fight the disease. It was considered a great cure all.
*Ointments--containing mercury were used on patients with venereal diseases. Sulfur was used from ancient times to treat skin problems.
*Plastering --Plasters were a paste-like mixtures, made from a variety of ingredients including such substances as cow manure, which were thought to draw the toxins causing a disease from the body. To make maters worse these filthy mixtures were often applied to the raw spots left from blistering.
*Poulticing --Poultices were made from a mixture of bread and milk, to which other ingredients were sometimes added including: potatoes, onions, herbs, and linseed oil. Poultices were applied to cuts, wounds, bites, and boils.
*Puking -- was a medical practice in which the physician dosed a patient with emetics resulting in vomiting. Puking was thought to relieve tension on arteries and to expel poisons from the body.
*Purging--was a treatment that involved the patient ingesting a powerful laxative to induce the emptying of the patient's bowels or intestines. Purging was thought to cleanse the body of toxins. Unfortunately the most widely used purgative was calomel, a highly poisonous form of mercuric chloride.
*Sweating--was a treatment where in patients were wrapped in a hot wet sheet and numerous blankets and thus made to sweat out the poisons that caused their disease. This treatment was more harmless than most, but could have fatal results if used on a person with high blood pressure or a weak heart.


Okay, wow. ohmy.gif How in the world did anyone survive? The treatments sound worse than the disease! I also believe that there were two classes of medical practitioners. Physicians and surgeons. I believe surgeons did most of the 'dirty work', making house calls, surgeries, day to day treatments. Physicians were called in to consult when the surgeon was stumped, and did not generally administer the treatment prescribed. Physicians were of a higher social standing than surgeons, they were revered for their mental abilities, while surgeons were viewed more as physical laborers.


This post has been edited by Pyxis: May 9 2008, 11:50 AM
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post May 9 2008, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE(Pyxis @ May 9 2008, 02:49 PM) *
Have you seen Sense and Sensibility with Alan Rickman? *sigh*
Maybe just a couple hundred times yeah. biggrin.gif
Thank you so much for all the different medical words and practises. It's kind of frightening that doctors really thought this could in any way actually help a patient. And, when a phsician like Mesmer actually did cure a patient, he was exiled for being a *sharlatan*
Anyhows, thank you for enlightening me with medical treatments & making me glad that I did not live then. I always thought it would be a nice time to live in because, life seems so civilized and polite but, just thinking about getting sick and being treated makes me glad I didnt live then lol shocking.gif



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post May 17 2008, 09:22 AM
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So I'm quickly jumping in with another question, because I'm not sure how long the P&P BC is still open for.
My question is (hopefully not a totally stupid one lol) what exactly does *prejudice* mean? I'm reading another book set in a similar era to Jane Austen's books, and the word *prejudice* is used a lot in the narrative. I dont think it means prejudice in the sense we use it now, to mean bias or discrimination. It would seem to mean something more like opinion or point of view or belief.
The title Pride and Prejudice could infer prejudice more in the way it's used now because there is a lot of the story that centers around discrimination between and against people from different social or financial backgrounds but, even here I'm not totally convinced that it has today's definition.
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post Dec 28 2008, 12:16 AM
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This was such a fascinating topic from the Pride and Prejudice discussion, we decided to move it into this forum as well. Please feel free to ask any questions you have, and we love it when you share your research!

Some questions to get us going...

* Can anyone enlighten me as to the monetary values of the time? I read 500 pounds per annum, is that enough to live on? Apparently two thousand a year is wealthy, is there any way to convert that to today's values?

* What was the role of the patron of a parish? We see Colonel Brandon giving the 'living' to Edward Ferrars, by what right does he do that? Does Brandon own the house? Does Ferrars have to pay Brandon for the right of being clergy? What are Brandon's responsibilities to others in the parish?

* Marianne considers Brandon to be old (at thirty-five!!), what was the life expectancy of the time period?

* Does anyone know of some good links to the poets mentioned...William Cowper, Alexander Pope, or Walter Scott?

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post Jan 1 2009, 07:59 PM
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Thanks for the questions Pyxis, I can help with the first one. The UK National Archives have a currency converter here and in 1810 (Sense &Sensibility was published in 1811) £500 was the equivalent of £16,980 which isn't a huge sum when it would be expected that one kept at least one or two servants, dressed reasonably within fashion, attended balls and dances etc in the hope of finding a husband. £2,000 converts as £67,920 which isn't a fortune by many standards but would be enough to maintain a house and family.


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"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS,
AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"

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post Jan 5 2009, 08:35 PM
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1.On the PBS Masterpiece website though, I remember Darcy's $10,000 was approximately $6,000,000.

2. Brandon as patron is, I think, equivalent to Lady Catherine in P&P. He would pay Edward money per annum for being a clergyman on his estate. The clergy was a profession like any other. Brandon would be Edward's boss. Edmund is a clergyman for Mansfield Park, if I remember correctly. Brandon owns the estate and the church would be part of his estate. I'm not sure about the rest of the question.

3. Not certain. Although I think Marianne just had a skewed view of Brandon and 35 shouldn't be that old.

4. Sir Walter Scott wrote the 1st historical novel, "Ivanhoe", and numerous other historical novels about the Scots. He was a contemporary of JA and of course, a Romantic poet. Pope is late 17th-early 18th century I think. He was not a Romantic, his poetry being less emotional. Cowper, I'm not sure about.

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