Death as a Plot Device in Harry Potter |
 Mar 26 2008, 05:46 PM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium  Posts: 6,769 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet   |
Death is very much a pervasive theme throughout the HP series. From early on, we learn about Harry, the boy who lived; the boy who was orphaned and went to live with his aunt and uncle. I wanted to dedicate this thread to the theme of death; it's different aspects; how it affects and how it is perceived by the different characters in the books; and how this premise seems to enthrall readers of all ages.
How has this very real theme affected you as a reader? Has it broadened your scope; do you find yourself imagining how it will affect you? Is the theme of death as a plot device warranted in a children's book? Will children understand it? Are there similarities between how death is portrayed in the HP series and between other books which have been published; comparisons with authors. Did Rowling purposefully choose this topic as a center point since this was something she was dealing with in her own life at the time she began writing the HP series? How has this theme enriched your understanding and enjoyment of the HP books; has it changed your life in any way? Do you find that you compare yourself to the characters and what they go through? Parents; how has the theme of death affected you; has this opened communication with your own children; I am sure their curiosity will have brought up many questions. Death affects each and every character in the book; either directly or indirectly; just as it affects those of us in the very real Muggle world. These are just some proposed questions and food for thought if you will. Please feel free to contribute anything that I might have inadvertently omitted in my opening post. You are more than welcome to bring in your own opinions, queries, and of course complaints as well. This post has been edited by lirene: Mar 26 2008, 05:51 PM --------------------  |
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Mar 28 2008, 01:15 AM
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Atrium Bouncer  Posts: 916 Joined: 1:13pm March 27, 2007 Location: The Leaky Cauldron(where else is there?!?)  |
QUOTE(lirene @ Mar 26 2008, 05:46 PM)  How has this very real theme affected you as a reader? Has it broadened your scope; do you find yourself imagining how it will affect you? As I read the series, I grew attuned to the fact that death is real...and painful. As having never lost anyone close to me to death, I have thought about it a lot. I mean, when I read about Cedric dying in GoF, it was devastating to me...and it didn't even affect me directly! And yet, it has broadened my mind--it has given me insight that, even in death, people live on in memories and the such like. QUOTE Is the theme of death as a plot device warranted in a children's book? Will children understand it? I think the theme of death in any book like this is warranted--even for kids. Death is an inevitable reality. I think that if kids, at a young age, can learn through the Harry Potter series about death, it's affects, and how to deal with it, it will help them later in life if they ever have to deal with it--family member, friend, etc. QUOTE Did Rowling purposefully choose this topic as a center point since this was something she was dealing with in her own life at the time she began writing the HP series? I think so. Having heard about JKR's life previous to writing these books, I think it was definitely a topic she dwelt on a lot. Sometimes, things we deal with, think about a lot, come out in our creativity--be it books (as in the case of JKR), music, art, etc. QUOTE How has this theme enriched your understanding and enjoyment of the HP books; has it changed your life in any way? Do you find that you compare yourself to the characters and what they go through? It has given me respect for those having to deal with death (i.e. Harry). It has given me insight into how someone deals with death--and such deep character development is always enriching for me. The Harry Potter series has made me see life in a whole new light. Just like Cedric, who didn't know that he would never leave that maze alive, we never know when something might happen to us that may bring death. Live life to it's fullest. Be like the trio. Even in the worst of times, they were able to find hope, friendship, happiness, etc. Life is short--don't waste it.  -------------------- Tryston
"Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself." --Dumbledore-- Follow the RGs on Twitter! |
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Mar 28 2008, 03:57 AM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer  Posts: 107 Joined: 9:47am February 28, 2008 Location: Flat above Zonko's Joke Shop, Hogsmeade. |
QUOTE How has this very real theme affected you as a reader? Has it broadened your scope; do you find yourself imagining how it will affect you? Before reading the Harry Potter books i was actually really scared of death (which i suppose is understandable saying i was so young) but these books have helped me believe that death is totally real and affects everybody but; in the end when it's your time to go it's your time to go. I suppose these books have helped me understand and 'not be scared' of death! I just hope it doesn't come too soon 
-------------------- Excuse me; are you the imprint of a departed soul?
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Mar 28 2008, 09:18 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 189 Joined: 6:57am January 25, 2008 Location: Italy, a small town on the hills |
QUOTE How has this very real theme affected you as a reader? Has it broadened your scope; do you find yourself imagining how it will affect you? What Rowling writes about death and grief almost exactly mirrors my own ideas, experiences and feelings. Throughout the series, I was moved by the way she described not only death itself, but also the reactions of the people who survived, and by the way she conveyed the message of sacrifice. These books made me think a lot more than I had imagined, especially some scenes: - Harry in Dumbledore's office after Sirius' death - Dumbledore telling Harry "It is the unknown we fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more" - Harry walking to his death Nothing in the series really upset me - in the sense that it didn't change my views. But in these books I found somethings which could have been taken from my experience - the experience of anyone, I think. In these books I found something "true", something "human" in the true sense of the word. The idea that Death can be defeated when one accepts it, even embraces it... well, it's a huge thing. QUOTE Is the theme of death as a plot device warranted in a children's book? Will children understand it? Are there similarities between how death is portrayed in the HP series and between other books which have been published; comparisons with authors. I don't know. It's a touchy subject. There's a part of me which says that children should be preserved from this. However, they are constantly exposed to this theme, more and more often in forms which aren't suited for their age. I think the HP series could be - maybe with the help of a parent - an useful educational instrument, because it's always positive in the end, and its message is a message of hope. Rowling wants to tell us that nothing is lost. However, I think very young children may not understand, and they would only be scared. I'd like to hear some parents about this  . As for the comparison between HP and other books, well... I don't want to go off-topic or to impose my views on anyone, but the books which immediately came to my mind as I finished reading the series were the Gospels. Probably this has to do with the fact that Rowling deals with fundamental themes and values: we have the idea of sacrifice, the idea of love as the means to annihilate death... QUOTE Did Rowling purposefully choose this topic as a center point since this was something she was dealing with in her own life at the time she began writing the HP series? I think she did. Some passages might actually have been taken from her life. The reason why she can write so well about these topics is that she feels strongly about them. QUOTE How has this theme enriched your understanding and enjoyment of the HP books; has it changed your life in any way? Do you find that you compare yourself to the characters and what they go through? It has definitely enriched my understanding and enjoyment of the HP books; the theme of death is the fil rouge which runs through the whole story and gives it cohesion and depth. I can't say it has changed my life, but as I said it was extremely stimulating for me. --- Sorry, a part hadn't been posted  This post has been edited by Dora87: Mar 28 2008, 09:24 AM |
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Mar 28 2008, 11:33 AM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,769 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(tryston009 @ Mar 28 2008, 02:15 AM) I mean, when I read about Cedric dying in GoF, it was devastating to me...and it didn't even affect me directly! And yet, it has broadened my mind--it has given me insight that, even in death, people live on in memories and the such like. Cedric's death really affected me as well. Here is a wizard with so much talent; a hard worker; a guy that everyone seemed to like. A completely innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time. One only has to read the news to see that this happens way too often, every day, to so many innocent people. Cedric's death really affected Harry; I can't imagine witnessing the death of someone, right in front of your eyes and not being able to do a single thing about it. Harry had to have felt a tremendous amount of guilt as well; it was his idea to touch the Triwizard Cup at the same time. The selfless offer by Harry was rewarded with Cedric's death. QUOTE Did Rowling purposefully choose this topic as a center point since this was something she was dealing with in her own life at the time she began writing the HP series? I also think that Jo was literally writing from the heart. In interviews we hear how sick Rowling's own mother was; and how Rowling herself had to fight the demons of depression and suicide. QUOTE(tryston009 @ Mar 28 2008, 02:15 AM) Life is short--don't waste it. I completely agree QUOTE(Dora87 @ Mar 28 2008, 10:18 AM) What Rowling writes about death and grief almost exactly mirrors my own ideas, experiences and feelings. Throughout the series, I was moved by the way she described not only death itself, but also the reactions of the people who survived, and by the way she conveyed the message of sacrifice. I really like the way she showed sacrifice through death in the series. And that the motivating factor was love. We see this in Lily and James, Harry, even Snape. A magical sacrificial protection was generated through Lily and Harry's sacrifices, however, James was also brave when he faced Voldemort. Lily and James died for their son. QUOTE(Dora87 @ Mar 28 2008, 10:18 AM) The idea that Death can be defeated when one accepts it, even embraces it... well, it's a huge thing. I agree wholeheartedly. And this is the crux of the theme. Death can seem very frightening to a lot of people. The fact that Death can be conquered when it is embraced is remarkably brought forth in this series. QUOTE Is the theme of death as a plot device warranted in a children's book? Will children understand it? Are there similarities between how death is portrayed in the HP series and between other books which have been published; comparisons with authors. QUOTE(Dora87 @ Mar 28 2008, 10:18 AM) I don't know. It's a touchy subject. There's a part of me which says that children should be preserved from this. However, they are constantly exposed to this theme, more and more often in forms which aren't suited for their age. I think the HP series could be - maybe with the help of a parent - an useful educational instrument, because it's always positive in the end, and its message is a message of hope. Rowling wants to tell us that nothing is lost. However, I think very young children may not understand, and they would only be scared. I'd like to hear some parents about this .You're right; it is a touchy subject. As has been pointed out, children these days are exposed to so much. We needn't look further than what is shown on the television, and the internet. Children seem to be much more mature than what I remember myself to be. I like your idea that the HP books could be educational for children; the books send very positive messages. I would like to hear parents' opinions too
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Mar 28 2008, 01:26 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 16 Joined: 11:46am March 14, 2008 Location: UK |
It is interesting to see your views, and this spring to mind.
Having lost a parent when I was young your world collapses, as you would expect. Here (and this may seem selfish) Harry is too young to remember those days. Take the quote …. “It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved before. “ …..is in my view the reverse is true for death. “It is better to have lost than to have loved and lost .“ I know Harry sees his parents via the Priori Incantatem and the mirror, but he feel loss but of a different kind. Yet through all this he can still feel their love. Death is not the story , the HP story is of love and life. Lily and even Harry sacrifices themselves for their love of others, and whether or not the hallow wand is too weak to kill Harry (as he is its master at that point) is irrelevant. He did not protect himself! For someone having felt and feared death at an early age, I could not do what Harry did. I only hope that when I go its quick (and that is selfish). It is good to see the world explained albeit, among the standard good versus bad scenario. This gives the child the power to ask questions – granted not that we can answer them all. Then those that choose have faith to help. As death is an experience we all go through it is not necessarily one we want to? My first experience of death was on the BBC Children’s TV programme “Blue Peter” A magazine programme that is informing and entertaining and over 40years old. (sorry if your in the UK) On this programme that have pet dogs, cats and even tortoises - my first death was one of these pets – I was devastated that the dog had died when they announced it. Would a parent of a child ever say to a child – one day you’ll die (preferably not in the language typed) … I can’t answer that. the problem is you cannot protect a child – the real world is far too wicked, and although I’ve forgiven mt parent for going time doesn’t always stop it hurting. -------------------- [font="Verdana"][/font][size="3"][/size]LJSONLINE :-)
"He tethered you to life while he lives" |
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Mar 29 2008, 09:44 AM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,769 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(ljsonline @ Mar 28 2008, 02:26 PM) "It is better to have lost than to have loved and lost ." I'm sorry for your loss ljsonline; the loss of a parent is truly saddening. The quote you give about loss is interesting. But I think there is a reason that "love and lost" are used at the same time. One can't really know what they have lost unless thay have loved that person. That is why death is so difficult to comprehend; there is a lot of blame; hurt; remorse. Death affects people differently. One can choose to accept death and move on; others become severely depressed; letting their deepest fears fester and run amuck. Harry's case is interesting because throughout the series he gets to know his parents. Of course, not in the conventional way. Magic and those who were close to Harry give him pieces to the puzzle if you will. I don't believe Harry will ever have the full picture, but in order for him to continue on and live his life, he seems satisfied. And I believe this was realized in the forest when he used the Resurrection Stone. It was here Harry saw his family for the last time; he saw Sirius and Lupin who were his surrogate parents so to speak. (Interesting; he didn't summon back Dumbledore). Harry sees that they are in a happy place; and the will always love him. This is when he was able to say goodbye. And this is why he chose not to keep the Stone. Unfortunately, we as Muggles aren't afforded a Resurrection Stone. However, the Stone is very symbolic. The Stone was depicted as a circle in the symbol of the Hallows. Very fitting; I see this as the circle of life. Life and death are in a circle; one coexists with the other. Because those that we have loved and lost through death will always be a part of us; part of the living world. -------------------- |
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Mar 29 2008, 10:50 AM
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Atrium Bouncer Posts: 916 Joined: 1:13pm March 27, 2007 Location: The Leaky Cauldron(where else is there?!?) |
QUOTE(lirene @ Mar 29 2008, 09:44 AM) QUOTE(ljsonline @ Mar 28 2008, 02:26 PM) "It is better to have lost than to have loved and lost ." I'm sorry for your loss ljsonline; the loss of a parent is truly saddening. The quote you give about loss is interesting. But I think there is a reason that "love and lost" are used at the same time. One can't really know what they have lost unless thay have loved that person. That is why death is so difficult to comprehend; there is a lot of blame; hurt; remorse. Death affects people differently. One can choose to accept death and move on; others become severely depressed; letting their deepest fears fester and run amuck. I am also sorry for your loss, ljsonline. But I agree with lirene's statement (which is very well said, IMO). No loss is as hard to bear as one involving someone you love and are very close to--be it friend, parent, sibling, etc. Death is such a difficult concept to understand because we don't have anyone who has returned from the dead and told us about what happens. Experience is a big part of human life--and that is how understanding is spread. But with death, no one knows and that scares people, whether they admit it or not. QUOTE Harry's case is interesting because throughout the series he gets to know his parents. Of course, not in the conventional way. Magic and those who were close to Harry give him pieces to the puzzle if you will. I don't believe Harry will ever have the full picture, but in order for him to continue on and live his life, he seems satisfied. And I believe this was realized in the forest when he used the Resurrection Stone. It was here Harry saw his family for the last time; he saw Sirius and Lupin who were his surrogate parents so to speak. (Interesting; he didn't summon back Dumbledore). Harry sees that they are in a happy place; and the will always love him. This is when he was able to say goodbye. And this is why he chose not to keep the Stone. With Harry, he was too young to remember his parents dying in front of him. But as he grew older, he knew they were not coming back and he would never see them in the flesh. Even Dumbledore (I think) said that there is no spell that can raise the dead. I like this statement by lirene. This is why love is so strong. It can connect us with those who have passed on. -------------------- Tryston
"Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself." --Dumbledore-- Follow the RGs on Twitter! |
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Apr 4 2008, 02:12 PM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,769 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
Thanks tryston009 for your kind remarks
! Keeping in line with the thread about death and loss, I also wanted to ask what you thought of the following: does the fact that Harry lost his parents at such a young age contribute to making him the strong person Harry becomes? How does the death of his parents affect his actions throughout the series? How about Neville? Yes, his parents are alive; but they are in a perpetual state of temporary insanity; so in a way, they are lost to Neville. How did this very real loss affect Neville and how his character evolved in the series?For myself as a reader, I belive the loss that Neville suffers incapacitates him more, at least in his early years as a student. He is very insecure; he is insecure as far as his magical abilities go; and many times people feel sorry for him. So, do you agree that the loss Neville felt was more than what Harry felt? -------------------- |
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Apr 14 2008, 12:14 AM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 232 Joined: 3:54am June 9, 2005 |
I agree with you lirene, that the 'loss' of his parents actually incapacitated Neville far more than Harry in many ways.
Harry grew up only knowing that his parents 'had been killed', and even though the Dursleys didn't tell him the truth about how they had been killed, he at least grew up without the physical presence of his parents. And that helped make him strong and self-reliant: he had to cope, and he did. I think that Harry, even holding the Resureection Stone, realised that he couldn't bring his parents back, because that would also require him to bring back other people - Sirius and Remus in particular. And then, when would it end - how many others would he want or need to bring back? The situation was much worse for Neville, because his parents didn't 'die'. They were there, in that terrible half-minded state, and Neville grew up having to see them like that. In his own way, Neville coped with this, as we saw so beautifully with that gum-wrapper scene in OotP. But I think the worst aspect for Neville's experience was because Grandmother Augusta wasn't able to move on. Because Frank and Alice were still physically alive, she had never been able to fully deal with her grief and anger at their 'deaths', and then let go, allowing them truly to rest in peace. As a result of this, she was unable to see Neville as a person in his own right - Frank and Alice were always 'there', as presences in her life and Neville's. So in her own grief, she constantly held up Frank as an ideal which Neville was supposed to match. And Neville couldn't do this, at least when he was young - sadly, he grew up with a sense that he wasn't good enough, and that he would never be able to match his father. As we saw, he did grow up and far exceeded Frank, IMHO: it's just a tragedy that he had to spend 15 years of his life being compared to an impossible ideal. What would we learn from looking at Neville and his experience of 'death'? I think that the lesson we see is not so much how to deal with Death, but how important it is for us to see people as individuals, and not set them up as "oh, he's just like his father / mother", etc. The lesson from Augusta and Neville is how important it is to allow people to be themselves: everyone has his/her own talents, and just because they have obtained half their genes from each parent, doesn't mean that they are exactly like that parent. Have expectations of your children by all means - but the expectations should be that they live up to their own potential, and not someone else's. They will often surprise you! Alkari This post has been edited by Alkari: Apr 14 2008, 12:21 AM |
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