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Death as a Plot Device in Harry Potter
lirene
post Mar 26 2008, 05:46 PM
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Death is very much a pervasive theme throughout the HP series. From early on, we learn about Harry, the boy who lived; the boy who was orphaned and went to live with his aunt and uncle. I wanted to dedicate this thread to the theme of death; it's different aspects; how it affects and how it is perceived by the different characters in the books; and how this premise seems to enthrall readers of all ages.

How has this very real theme affected you as a reader? Has it broadened your scope; do you find yourself imagining how it will affect you?

Is the theme of death as a plot device warranted in a children's book? Will children understand it? Are there similarities between how death is portrayed in the HP series and between other books which have been published; comparisons with authors.

Did Rowling purposefully choose this topic as a center point since this was something she was dealing with in her own life at the time she began writing the HP series?

How has this theme enriched your understanding and enjoyment of the HP books; has it changed your life in any way? Do you find that you compare yourself to the characters and what they go through?

Parents; how has the theme of death affected you; has this opened communication with your own children; I am sure their curiosity will have brought up many questions.

Death affects each and every character in the book; either directly or indirectly; just as it affects those of us in the very real Muggle world.

These are just some proposed questions and food for thought if you will. Please feel free to contribute anything that I might have inadvertently omitted in my opening post. You are more than welcome to bring in your own opinions, queries, and of course complaints as well.


This post has been edited by lirene: Mar 26 2008, 05:51 PM


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Star of Isis
post Apr 15 2008, 02:14 PM
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It's impossible to discuss death in HP without any reference to my personal experience.

I was introduced to death when my mother passed away before my sixth birthdays. And I must say that it affected me more like it affected Neville than Harry. It didn't make me strong in the next years but even more vulnerable, shy, having low self-esteem. It also didn't make any other death that later occurred in my family any less painful.

I agree with ljsonline – Harry to me is exceptional with his strength because he came from a house where he didn't experience love. But he didn't remember his parents for 11 years and he didn't remember witnessing their death until he saw it through Voldemort's eyes. The first death that he experienced was Cedric's. Neville's situation was in this case much worse – to me he was witnessing his parents dying slowly all his life, because I wouldn't call their condition 'living'. Harry on the other hand was robbed of any chance of knowing his own parents. But would he change his place with Neville?

I don't have children but I think that they have to read about death in children's books – if we avoided this subject, wouldn't it be lying to them? But I don't see this as a way of preparing them for the pain of personal loss. They may however understand better that death is irreversible and final, something that children may not necessarily comprehend.

I don't like it that so many people died in these books, but that's the author's choice. But she made my heart bleed every time... She wrote books about a war and war is killing and dying.


QUOTE(ljsonline @ Mar 28 2008, 08:26 PM) *
“It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved before. “
…..is in my view the reverse is true for death.
“It is better to have lost than to have loved and lost .“


I agree with you completely. That's why I felt more sorry for Neville than Harry before he lost Sirius.



QUOTE(Alkari)
I think that Harry, even holding the Resurrection Stone, realised that he couldn't bring his parents back, because that would also require him to bring back other people.


I think that he realised that they weren't be really alive – just like it was said in the original story about the three brothers, they would be neither dead nor alive but as if behind a veil. The point is that you can't really bring them back and enjoy normal life again. Not even with the Resurrection Stone.


This post has been edited by Star of Isis: Apr 15 2008, 02:35 PM


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The-T-Dane
post Apr 15 2008, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE
Is the theme of death as a plot device warranted in a children's book? Will children understand it? Are there similarities between how death is portrayed in the HP series and between other books which have been published; comparisons with authors.

QUOTE(Dora87 @ Mar 28 2008, 10:18 AM) *
I don't know. It's a touchy subject. There's a part of me which says that children should be preserved from this. However, they are constantly exposed to this theme, more and more often in forms which aren't suited for their age. I think the HP series could be - maybe with the help of a parent - an useful educational instrument, because it's always positive in the end, and its message is a message of hope. Rowling wants to tell us that nothing is lost. However, I think very young children may not understand, and they would only be scared. I'd like to hear some parents about this wink.gif .

QUOTE
You're right; it is a touchy subject. As has been pointed out, children these days are exposed to so much. We needn't look further than what is shown on the television, and the internet. Children seem to be much more mature than what I remember myself to be. I like your idea that the HP books could be educational for children; the books send very positive messages. I would like to hear parents' opinions too smile.gif


My daughter (14) has had to deal with death all her life, but she is more affected about how some grown-ups around us is NOT dealing with death! - and so I'm not talking about tv or internet but real life experiences!

From my corner of the world, I find it sad, that death HAS BECOME such at touchy subject to all - not just to children! It's not right. And it's not fair to those of us, who have had to deal with deaths. It makes things awkward, because it gets hard to have somebody to talk to about having lost loved ones.
It isn't more than about 75-100 years ago (maybe less in some parts of the world) that death was something happening right there in the living room! As a part of life actually, given that the family had to deal with their departed on their own, as money was a huge issue and far from all was able to pay a funeral director after a death. It made dealing with that particular subject more a fact of life, than it seems to be today in a modern society like the one I am part of.

So the way death is dealt with in HP is very illuminating to my daughter and in some sence, liberating, because it gives her the possibility to yet again adress the death/loss-subject with me as well as with friends her own age, who in some cases have had losses themselves, but not having been able to adress the issue before.

The way death is approached by Harry is so heroic - but only in a way that is true to his character - and actually I have heard my daughter and other children seeing some hope and seeing the love his sacrifice represents. So it was not frightening to them at all. I don't think that has to do with maturity, but all to do with the way the adults around children deal with the issues.

Books as well as TV/internet/news-papers can very well be used as tools to open up to the difficult subjects as death and loosing someone.
I make it into 2 subjects because children, I have met, is very much differentiating between dying themselves and somebody dying - and JKR is also dealing with death in more than one way. Yet another thumbs up from my small family of two!

And to Star of Isis: I totally agree with you, that it does NOT become less painful with each death !

and to other inputs as well: - But I also cannot see any way to compare Harrys and Nevilles situation - that is so unfair to both characters! Which type of tape measurer can be used here? And yet Harry is wondering himself, whether Neville is not in a worse spot because of the way, their surroundings are treating their losses. JKR - I think - makes us wonder about that unfairness - or?



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Alkari
post Apr 15 2008, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE
I was introduced to death when my mother passed away before my sixth birthdays. And I must say that it affected me more like it affected Neville than Harry. It didn't make me strong in the next years but even more vulnerable, shy, having low self-esteem. It also didn't make any other death that later occurred in my family any less painful.
I am sorry to hear of your loss, Star of Isis. Yet even though you were only five, you were still able to remember your mother, with all her love and what it meant to 'have' a mother.

In comparison, Harry never really knew that: Lily and James died when he was only 15 months old. Obviously, his parents held him and cuddled him and loved him, yet as we see in that scene at the end of GOF when Molly hugs Harry, he has no memory of that ever happening - as far as he is concerned, Molly's hug is the first 'motherly' hug he's known. And I think this makes a very big difference in terms of how Harry dealt with his parents deaths: they were 'abstract' to him, and as he admits, he really has no memories of them. It's really a case of: if you've never experiecned something, you can't really understand 'what' you've missed out on.

As far as his own memories go, Harry's first meeting with Death only occurred at the end of PS/SS when Quirrellmort was killed, and even there, the circumstances were very blurred. Although everyone was faced with the possibility of death in COS, no one actually died, and no one died in POA. So therefore, you could argue that the first time Harry experienced death as a reality was at the end of GOF, when he saw Cedric killed in cold blood. Of course, Harry had already dealt with the possibility of his own death in PS/SS and especially COS, but I think it was really only in GOF that "Death" was something Harry was forced to consider in terms of seeing someone else die.

And I absolutely agree with you, The-T-Dane, that these days Death tends to be sanitised, and is hushed up as a topic of conversation. As your daughter understands, people don't deal with it, because it has moved out of everyday experience. The Gulf War has changed this for many people, yet even with all the TV coverage, Death still occurs 'over there' and not at home, so that the acceptance of Death as a normal, ever-present part of daily life has passed out of everyday experience for many people. Of course, we can be very thankful for this too: in the days of very high child mortality, even young children quickly came to understand that their new baby brother or sister could die within hours or days of birth, and people regularly died of illnesses and injuries that today could be cured quite rapidly.

But it does mean that people can't cope, or find it hard to do so, not just because of their tremendous personal loss, but also because they have lost that perspective.

Alkari

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Star of Isis
post Apr 16 2008, 08:25 PM
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I wonder how JKR felt when she was introducing a character, writing about his/her life, and knowing from the beginning that he or she would die... To us their death was a shock but it would have been even harder to know that the character is doomed... Did she say something about it in an interview?
I'm not sure if you know what I mean due to my English... It's just when I write a story, I have some thoughts on my character's fate but they are not final, things change while I'm developing the story. So when I start writing, I am never sure how it will end. But she knew from the beginning that Dobby or Remus are going to die, which to me seems very painful to deal with. Imagine writing a funny scene with Dobby and then realising how little time he is left... I'm not sure I could do that. Perhaps that's what makes her a good writer smile.gif



Alkari, I too feel deeply sorry that Harry did not remember what it meant to have loving parents... It was heartbreaking when he sat in front of the Mirror of the Erised – a lonly child showing his deepest desire to be with his mom and dad... However, I think that it was awful when he saw his parents dying in the DH. Hermione didn't say how he reacted but we can imagine it, judging from her tearful, worried face... That's one memory of them that he could have been spared. But nothing was spared to Harry.



The-T-Dane, that's a very good point that these books teach us to talk about death. Look at the forums, how everyone speaks so openly about their grief after a character's death.

I also agree that we can't possibly measure who suffered more – Harry or Neville. So to me it's not about comparing Neville's and Harry's excess of loss but the ways they dealt with it and how it affected their later lives. These characters are made to compare. JKR made one of the boys 'weaker' and lacking self-esteem, and the other strong, to show us how suffering can affect us. We love them both. I think that JKR has made a great job with these two characters beause everyone can identify with either Harry or Neville.

So we have Neville unable to make a closure with his parents neither dead nor alive, and Harry witnessing deaths of people he loved or was attached to – Sirius, Dumbledore, Remus, Dobby and others. Additionally to their suffering, both live under a lot of pressure. Alakri described Neville's situation perfectly. And though Neville's grandmother is surely more intimidating than Petunia, Harry was the only one that could defeat a monster, so he lived under pressure too. I also noticed that both boys had difficulty talking about their pain to anyone, even the closest friends, which is typical but not good for them. I don't know if Neville had closer friends than Harry to confide to them but it's plain obvious that he couldn't talk to Augusta. Harry also felt more comfortable to express his emotions to more 'distanced' Dumbledore than to Ron and Hermione, but he also didn't spend ours crying in Dumbledore's arms, did he? These boys dealth with their pain alone, as if ashamed to show that they are suffering. And here comes the lesson from the books – learn to talk about death and pain.
I'm not sure if I have any point to make, it's just a stream of thoughts...


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The-T-Dane
post Apr 17 2008, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE(Star of Isis @ Apr 17 2008, 02:25 AM) *
I wonder how JKR felt when she was introducing a character, writing about his/her life, and knowing from the beginning that he or she would die... To us their death was a shock but it would have been even harder to know that the character is doomed... Did she say something about it in an interview?

I read somewhere, that she told in an interview, that she came out into the kitchen crying at the time she had written about the death of Sirius? Do not remember where exactly I read it - sorry.

QUOTE(Star of Isis @ Apr 17 2008, 02:25 AM) *
I also agree that we can't possibly measure who suffered more – Harry or Neville. So to me it's not about comparing Neville's and Harry's excess of loss but the ways they dealt with it and how it affected their later lives. These characters are made to compare. JKR made one of the boys 'weaker' and lacking self-esteem, and the other strong, to show us how suffering can affect us. We love them both. I think that JKR has made a great job with these two characters beause everyone can identify with either Harry or Neville.

I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding you, I read it, as though you see that the "weaker"/stronger personalities is due to their sufferings?

Is it JKR showing us how childhood-suffering can affect us, so we end up weaker and lacking self-esteem, or is she showing how two different (one seemingly weaker and one seemingly strong) people, deals with difficulties and suffering in their upbringing - and how they both reach adulthood with success and both without becoming bad or even evil despite their different personalities and abilities!


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Star of Isis
post Apr 18 2008, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE(The-T-Dane @ Apr 17 2008, 07:46 PM) *
I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding you, I read it, as though you see that the "weaker"/stronger personalities is due to their sufferings?


I think that it is a mixture of both character and experience. Sure, we are born with certain predispositions but it's mainly our experiences that shape our character, especially in the first years of our lives. By making these two characters I meant that JKR put Neville and Harry through certain experiences to develop their characters and show us that we react differently to certain things (suffering). Was it because of their predispositions or maybe, although both suffered, Neville was safe with his grandmother, while Harry was on his own from the beginning? I'm not sure where to draw a line.
By the way, I hate calling Neville weak, it's not the right word because both of them proved strong, so I think insecure is better.

Anyway, there's a saying that what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. I don't think it applies to everybody. In fact, it pisses me off, when someone says it.


This post has been edited by Star of Isis: Apr 18 2008, 04:07 PM


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The-T-Dane
post Apr 18 2008, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE(Star of Isis @ Apr 18 2008, 04:26 PM) *
By the way, I hate calling Neville weak, it's not the right word because both proved strong, so I think insecure is better.

Anyway, there's a saying that what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. I don't think it applies to everybody. In fact, it pisses me off, when someone says it.


Ha - knew, there was something I didn't quite get right! Language is a stone in a shoe!
Love you for being pissed on the bullsh** the quoted sentence is! Know for a fact, you are right on the mark!

I even think, that what makes me really fond of Harry Potter is, that I see some characters coping outside the boxes, we people often use for each other - and the boxes are often created originally by socalled experts! Love JKR for writing about being outside the boxes !!! Hope, I make a little sence!


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Alkari
post Apr 18 2008, 04:18 PM
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I also can't see how people call Neville "weak' - he's insecure and lacking in confidence, but that's all. And that's also not atypical for his age!

One of the big differences affecting how Neville and Harry coped with their situations is that Neville still grew up in a family that loved him. Yes, Augusta was tough and demanding, and she certainly didn't help Neville by her attitude of always measuring him against his parents, but she still loved him. And Neville knew that, just as he knew that although Great Uncle Algie was eccentric, he still loved Neville too. On the other hand, Harry never had that experience: all he knew was abuse and bullying from the Dursleys. (Of course, that is where HP departs from Reality - I don't imagine any kid who'd suffered the treatment given to Harry would have emerged as psychologically undamaged as Harry is - but then, "Hero leaves home where he's unloved" is quite a typical theme for Hero's journey tales)

Harry really was "alone" from an early age, so from as far back as he could remember, he had to make his own way and work out ways of coping. Neville certainly wasn't alone: the trouble he faced was not lack of love, but coping with all the expectations from his family, and learning to find his own way in life. "Death" therefore shaped Harry's life from the age of fifteen months: near- or living-death shaped Neville's life in a subtly different manner.

Alkari


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Maime the Hunter
post Apr 18 2008, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE
Anyway, there's a saying that what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. I don't think it applies to everybody. In fact, it P----- me off, when someone says it.

Agreed. Consider the saying: "no pain, no gain."

Who ever said that should take a good look at Neville's parents. More than often, what doesn't kill us can still leave us in a state where we are powerless, in unimaginable pain, or worse. Think of the images of starving adults and children, so weak they can only stare ahead, or people so terrorized in their existance that not even the death of the person standing next to him can startled them ebough to struggle or fight.

There are many things, as Dumbledore told Tom, worst than death, but that doesn't mean I want to die.
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The-T-Dane
post Apr 18 2008, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE(Alkari @ Apr 18 2008, 10:18 PM) *
(Of course, that is where HP departs from Reality - I don't imagine any kid who'd suffered the treatment given to Harry would have emerged as psychologically undamaged as Harry is - but then, "Hero leaves home where he's unloved" is quite a typical theme for Hero's journey tales)

Alkari


Hi Alkari,
Sorry if I appear unnecessarily arguing or even educational, but if you do not think some real children in real life are treated as bad - and worse - as the Harry-character, and still coming out as whole and sometimes even heroic people, I'm happy for you, because that must be because you never witnessed such bad behavior from any humans (especially towards children), and that is very good!
Please do believe, that he really IS believeable. And I do not see him emerge undamaged, but managing his damages gracefully!
It's like if she can write about him in the way she does, then maybe she actually saw/met some "survivors" herself?
When I read HP, it's reality! even if it is fiction, and I can never require a wand ^_^
(Did not want take out the drama, but I felt JKR and the children suffering out here should be defended)


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