Why Didn't the Brilliant Dumbledore Solve the Riddle of the COS? |
 Dec 1 2007, 04:16 AM
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#11
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Madame Pince's House Elf  Posts: 4,607 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release   |
QUOTE(Oryx @ Dec 1 2007, 07:45 PM)  QUOTE You'd think so, except that Harry wasn't about to confide in anyone, least of all the headmaster that he was hearing voices. However, Dumbledore knew Harry had heard the sounds at least once, because he Leglimensed him in that meeting in his office after Justin was petrified. He knew Harry was lying and he may have been able to get him to say more if they met again. Of course Dumbledore would know that Harry was lying. Most kids would in those circumstances. Well, I would have. Especially if I'd begun to think I was hearing voices. Why give a teacher any more excuse than necessary to lay on the punishment? Even Harry admitted that his 'no' sounded suspiciously like Tom Riddle's 'no', when Dumbledore asked if there was anything Harry wanted to tell him. Where there might be grounds for feeling annoyed with Dumbledore include the following: 1. If he used legilimency on Harry Dumbledore would have known that Harry was completely innocent of involvement in the Chamber of Secrets. He also would have been aware of Lucius Malfoy's plot, the preparation of the Polyjuice potion, the suspicions that the trio had of Draco Malfoy and he might also have had brought to mind one Moaning Myrtle whose death had caused so much trouble fifty years earlier. So what was the matter with Dumbledore that he never saw fit to ask the ghost of this poor girl what happened to her? Why was such an elementary and obvious thing to do left to a twelve year old boy to figure out? 2. Maybe Dumbledore had also used Legilimency on Tom Riddle Jnr at some point. If so, why did he allow Rubeus Hagrid get expelled? And when he knows Hagrid is innocent, why let him be carted off to Azkaban? Dumbledore knows for a fact that it isn't Harry. But why was't he more savvy about what Lucius Malfoy was up to? This isn't rocket science, it is only office politics, Wizard style. And since JKR says that Dumbledore understood Parseltongue, how was it he never heard the voices? This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Dec 1 2007, 04:18 AM --------------------  Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Dec 1 2007, 01:00 PM
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#12
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 151 Joined: 1:18pm February 1, 2005 Location: Department of Mysteries |
Hummm ... reading through the responses I'm still not convinced, although I certainly concede the point is academic and I should give JKR a break — as Granjo Granger says, the book isn't called "Dumbledore and the Chamber of Secrets."
But the distinction oryx tries to draw between someone who knows Parseltongue naturally and someone who learns it seems to me to be artificial and ad hoc. Understanding when a person speaks Parseltongue and when a snake does wouldn't be different — the snake language and sound would be exactly the same. All Harry actually got from Moaning Myrtle was the thing about large eyes and the general location of where the attack came from. I think DD could have gotten that from her ghost. And even if he didn't, just knowing where she died would have been enough to search her bathroom. DD did not believe Hagrid was guilty of Myrtle's death or he would have been sent to Azkaban rather than made the groundskeeper. DD was a teacher at the time and the teachers certainly would have been looking into the death. In COS the teacher are roaming the halls at night to try to find the culprit. If DD knew Hagrid wasn't responsible, he would have kept looking. As rowena r says, there was an element of sheer luck. But then again, the Basilisk was talking behind the walls in the main areas of Hogswart, not slithering around only in obscure corners of it where only Harry roamed. And it is not unlikely that teachers would have heard too if they spoke Parseltongue. (I still think they should have heard something out of the ordinary when the Basilisk was hissing, not just the ordinary castle noises.) |
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Dec 1 2007, 04:06 PM
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#13
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Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
QUOTE 1. If he used legilimency on Harry Dumbledore would have known that Harry was completely innocent of involvement in the Chamber of Secrets. He also would have been aware of Lucius Malfoy's plot, the preparation of the Polyjuice potion, the suspicions that the trio had of Draco Malfoy and he might also have had brought to mind one Moaning Myrtle whose death had caused so much trouble fifty years earlier. So what was the matter with Dumbledore that he never saw fit to ask the ghost of this poor girl what happened to her? Why was such an elementary and obvious thing to do left to a twelve year old boy to figure out? It is obvious we are meant, upon reread to believe Dumbleodre was Leglimensing Harry in that conversation - Dumbledore looks in Harry's eyes and we get Harry's stream of thoughts. And yes, obviously Dumbledore knew Harry was innocent, and that was when he verified it. And he knew the trio was making Polyjuice Potion, which meant they were investigating. This was why he gave Harry the cryptic message in Hagrid's hut. I believe Dumbledore may have tried to talk to Myrtle - not just then, but years ago, when she was forced to remain in the castle. But either she was uncooperative, the way the Grey Lady may have been, or, not knowing about how the basilisk was able to move around unnoticed in the castle, her response wasn't informative to him. Try reading what Myrtle tells Harry without knowing the basilisk was moving in the plumbing - all you could make out was that Riddle was talking in Parseltongue to control the basilisk, and that they were in the bathroom, but not how they got there. QUOTE 2. Maybe Dumbledore had also used Legilimency on Tom Riddle Jnr at some point. If so, why did he allow Rubeus Hagrid get expelled? And when he knows Hagrid is innocent, why let him be carted off to Azkaban? Of course Dumbledore knew Aragog did not kill Myrtle, and therefore Hagrid was not to blame for her death. But Hagrid was guilty of keeping a monster classified as 'known wizard killer' in the castle. He was endangering all the students. So yes, there was a good reason to expel Hagrid. Even if Dumbledore could have cleared him of Myrtle's death he couldn't have prevented the expulsion. Regarding the later round - Dumbledore did not have the political clout to fight Lucius without catching the culprit. The best he could have done was to warn Hagrid so he could run and hide in time. QUOTE But the distinction oryx tries to draw between someone who knows Parseltongue naturally and someone who learns it seems to me to be artificial and ad hoc. Understanding when a person speaks Parseltongue and when a snake does wouldn't be different — the snake language and sound would be exactly the same. It isn't artificial when you know the kids could hear Harry when he spoke Parseltongue (though couldn't understand what he was saying), but couldn't even hear the sounds of the basilisk. Only Harry could hear it. Apparently snakes speak in a different frequency or something, and only Parselmouths hear that frequency. This post has been edited by Oryx: Dec 1 2007, 04:16 PM |
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Dec 1 2007, 04:25 PM
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#14
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 15 Joined: 5:59pm November 25, 2007 Location: Im bussy ploting my take over of the magical world. |
DD did infact know the secret to the COS because faux sent him the sorting hat so what other person could know whenm he was in the COS?!?!
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Dec 2 2007, 02:24 PM
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#15
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Madame Pince's House Elf Posts: 4,607 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release |
QUOTE(The Voldie Wears Prada @ Dec 2 2007, 08:25 AM) DD did infact know the secret to the COS because faux sent him the sorting hat so what other person could know whenm he was in the COS?!?! It is a good point to make, that Dumbledore must have known where to send Fawkes. However, I'm sure a bird, especially a magical bird like Fawkes, does not have to be with DD to find a particular place, such as the Chamber of Secrets. I don't think that it mattered where Harry was when he asked for help. He showed loyalty to Dumbledore as well as asking for help, therefore the sorting hat and Fawkes turned up. This is not the only time in the series that the sorting hat turns up for a Gryffindor in need, producing the Sword of Gryffindor. At the end of the series, Neville also gets to slay Nagini with the Sword of Gryffindor, even though it was supposed to be in Griphook's possession. -------------------- Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Dec 2 2007, 03:02 PM
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#16
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Ollivander's Apprentice Posts: 1,994 Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007 Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song   |
QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Dec 2 2007, 02:24 PM) QUOTE(The Voldie Wears Prada @ Dec 2 2007, 08:25 AM) DD did infact know the secret to the COS because faux sent him the sorting hat so what other person could know whenm he was in the COS?!?! It is a good point to make, that Dumbledore must have known where to send Fawkes. However, I'm sure a bird, especially a magical bird like Fawkes, does not have to be with DD to find a particular place, such as the Chamber of Secrets. I don't think that it mattered where Harry was when he asked for help. He showed loyalty to Dumbledore as well as asking for help, therefore the sorting hat and Fawkes turned up. Having just read Sarah Putnam Park's brilliant Scribbulus essay "Dumbledorian Ethics", I just thought I'd mention that she addresses this issue in her essay. In her view, Dumbledore only allows Harry to meet up with a weakened Voldemort under very carefully constructed situations, at Hogwarts, and under supervision and aid when needed. (This pov rather assuaged my own concerns as to what Dumbledore was thinking in allowing Harry to be in the Chamber at all, posted above). As to what Dumbledore did/did not yet know about the Chamber and its secrets.....I'll let you read the essay rather than paraphrase.  Let's just say....I found her arguments persuasive.
This post has been edited by fidelia: Dec 2 2007, 07:07 PM -------------------- *thanks, twiddlethosedials, for the siggy* |
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Dec 4 2007, 09:11 PM
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#17
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 14 Joined: 10:15pm October 6, 2007 Location: listening to THE Pottercast |
QUOTE(Granjo Granger @ Nov 29 2007, 07:16 PM) Hermione simply used logic to conclude that the petrified victims of the basilisk had to have seen it indirectly. The view had to be diluted to prevent death. I would guess that Dumbledore either did not ask the right questions or did not want to do anything to stimulate the basilisk. The book is not titled Albus Dumbledore and the Chamber of Secrets. We have to give JKR some slack. Hermione did have ample evidence that if you did not gaze directly into the basilisks eyes, you would not die. All the people who had been petrified saw the snake indirectly, i.e: through a camera, in a puddle of water, through a ghost. (Nick was already dead, so the most it could do was petrify him.) I think there was a very well thought out reason for Dumbledore to step aside and allow Harry to deal with the Chamber of Secrets. As we now know, Dumbledore had Harry's entire life planned out for him before he arrived at Hogwarts. When he figured out what was going on, he probably decided to allow Harry the experience with the horocruxes. Where would the HP world be if he hadn't? -------------------- Gryffinclaw Forever!!!
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Dec 6 2007, 06:03 PM
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#18
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 28 Joined: 4:58pm December 5, 2007 Location: Mexico |
We have to understand that Dumbledore was not brilliant and wise (as he is now) when all this things happened before (50 years ago), I know that he could solve the problem now that happened again, but I think that he was looking to the exterior of Hogwarts and not to the interior. Other thing that we have to think about is the strategy of Voldemort. He used Ginny, the little and cute Weasley girl, to reopen the chamber and control the basilisk. Dumbledore would never suspect about her, that's why he never solved who reopened the chamber.
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Dec 6 2007, 06:27 PM
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#19
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 7 Joined: 5:27pm November 29, 2007 |
When the chamber was first open Dumbledore was not headmaster, he was just a teacher. He probably didn't have as much resources has he did later in life.
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