Things That Didn't Make Sense, Part 2 |
 Sep 19 2009, 11:49 AM
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Leaky's Resident Borg Queen  Posts: 11,901 Joined: 11:45am July 25, 2005 Location: in space, the final frontier . . .   |
From the last post in Part 1.
QUOTE(paint it Black @ Sep 19 2009, 09:12 AM)  QUOTE(harrydavid @ Sep 18 2009, 12:24 PM) QUOTE(Bookworm_Weasley @ Sep 18 2009, 12:03 AM) Admittedly, Dumbledore does say that Kreacher was forced to do Sirius' bidding because he is the last of the family that Kreacher was bound to serve, but by last I think he means youngest. Sirius is younger than both Bellatrix and Narcissa. He can't mean that Sirius is the only member of the Black family left, because he earlier refers to Narcissa as "the only Black family member for whom he had any respect left". Being the last in the Black family didn't mean he was the youngest. It meant that he was the last in the direct line and therefore the heir, which makes him the new owner and master.I agree. Either Orion or Walburga (both being Blacks) would have inherited Kreacher (my money's on Walburga), and after their deaths, he would have passed to one of their heirs, who would then become his master. I don't think that it necessarily has to do with last names, either. If Sirius had a married sister, she would be an heir of Orion and Walburga as well. QUOTE(harrydavid @ Sep 18 2009, 12:24 PM) QUOTE(Bookworm_Weasley @ Sep 18 2009, 12:03 AM) As for Tonks, I think the important difference is that Tonks was never on the family tree to start with, whereas Sirius was. Andromeda was disowned and blasted off of the tree when she married Ted, which was before Tonks was born. So, when Tonks came along, she was never added to the tree. I think that if Sirius had ever had children, they wouldn't have been added to the tree either. Are you implying that Kreacher would have had to obey Andromeda, since she was on the family tree at one time. I think we all know better than that. The family tree is only a magical artifact and it has nothing to do with actual succession. If it did then Sirius couldn't have inherited the house or Kreacher, because he had been blasted off of it.Regarding Tonks, I think her actual placement on the family tree isn't as important as the fact that her mother was disowned before she was born. Her mother was no longer considered a Black by the Black family, so no Blacks would consider Andromeda's children to be Blacks. I agree that possibly presence on the family tree is more of an honor than it is a presence on a legal document of inheritance, which would explain why Sirius was able to inherit the house and Kreacher (who thusly would consider him to be his master) even though he had been removed from the family tree. QUOTE(Bookworm_Weasley @ Sep 18 2009, 12:03 AM) Actually, Sirius didn't will Kreacher to Harry. He willed 12 Grimmauld Place to Harry, and Kreacher came along with it. Remember, when Dumbledore goes to Privet Drive at the beginning of HBP, he has to bring Kreacher to the house to see if he will take orders from Harry. This is to see whether he comes with the house or not. Actually, I think the reason they seek to see if Kreacher would take orders from Harry was not to see if Kreacher came with the house (I think that was a given), but whether Sirius had successfully willed the house to Harry. If Kreacher had not obeyed Harry's orders, then they would have concluded that Sirius did not follow all of the needed steps to will the house to Harry, and therefore Harry would not have inherited Kreacher or the house. (This was a concern to them at the time because they needed to see if the Order could still use 12GP as headquarters.) QUOTE(roonwit @ Sep 19 2009, 07:56 AM) QUOTE(harrydavid @ Sep 19 2009, 12:41 AM) And Sirius didn't just speak Kreacher's name. He called him. There is a huge difference. In your opinion, and also in Sirius's (though Sirius was summoning him from somewhere else in the house, not the remote location Kreachert was probably now at), but I think there is room for Kreacher to interpret it differently. As we see repeatedly, house elves can exploit any loop holes in what their masters actually say.I have to agree with harrydavid here. Sirius is clearly calling Kreacher. This is how charcters throughout the series summon house elves -- they call out their name. In DH, Harry calls out Kreacher's name and Kreacher appears instantly at 12 GP. Do you really think Kreacher wanted to obey the "Potter brat"? But he does. If house elves could use the loophole of, I thought my master was just saying my name, not summoning me, then every house elf in creation could simply choose if they wanted to obey a summons from their master or not. QUOTE(roonwit @ Sep 19 2009, 07:56 AM) QUOTE(harrydavid @ Sep 19 2009, 12:41 AM) If you agree that "the master" has more authority then we are in total agreement. But then you contradict that by saying that Kreacher can ignore an explicit order from him. If he has more authority then Kreacher has to obey him above the others. It isn't a contradiction. Kreacher can't (in general) go against explicit orders of the person who owns the house he is tied to, but he does have more flexibility over the ordering of tasks (Kreacher doesn't disobey Sirius's summons, he just delays his obedience).In this last instance at least, I have to disagree. I don't really think that Kreacher is delaying his obedience; he doesn't wait a time and then obey Sirius' summons, Sirius finds him "lurking in the attic". That's not obeying a summons as I see it. This post has been edited by Seven of Nine: Sep 19 2009, 11:49 AM -------------------- "That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong. I want to do it right this time" -- Rand |
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