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Discrepancies and unanswered questions - do they detract from the books?, Continuity Issues raised in books
MacHammer
post Jun 11 2009, 06:26 PM
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Hi all,

I'm interested in some continuity issues now that all the "secrets" have been revealed. I don't raise these because I'm nit-picking. In fact, I don't want to do that at all. These are just questions that I've discussed with other fans and we haven't come up with an answer. So here goes...

First, when Hagrid and Harry are leaving the hut on the rock, Harry asks Hagrid how he got there (as they steal the Dursley's boat). He responds that he flew? How? We learn later that Hagrid doesn't do brooms. He is too big for Thestrals, and usually has to ride Serious's motorcycle if he needs to fly...

So how did he really get there?

Next, Vernon and Petunia make a big gag of Platform 9 3/4 and how it doesn't exist. In Snapes memories, we learn that Petunia has actually been ON the platform when Lily left for school. No question here, just an observation.

In book 7, Hermione tells Ron and Harry that she has modified her parents' memories so they would move to Australia. Later, when asked if she knows how to do this, she responds that she hasn't done it but thinks she understands how it is done.

I'm reading the books again as I read them to my youngest kid. I'm sure I'll recognize others as I move through the books again.

Thanks for your thoughts...
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Seidenschnabel
post Jun 12 2009, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE(MacHammer @ Jun 11 2009, 07:26 PM) *
First, when Hagrid and Harry are leaving the hut on the rock, Harry asks Hagrid how he got there (as they steal the Dursley's boat). He responds that he flew? How? We learn later that Hagrid doesn't do brooms. He is too big for Thestrals, and usually has to ride Serious's motorcycle if he needs to fly...

So how did he really get there?

Next, Vernon and Petunia make a big gag of Platform 9 3/4 and how it doesn't exist. In Snapes memories, we learn that Petunia has actually been ON the platform when Lily left for school. No question here, just an observation.

In book 7, Hermione tells Ron and Harry that she has modified her parents' memories so they would move to Australia. Later, when asked if she knows how to do this, she responds that she hasn't done it but thinks she understands how it is done.


1. My preference would be that Hagrid used his pink umbrella to fly Marry Poppins style, but I think it is more likely that he used something like a portkey. We are not specifically told how Hagrid got there, but I think this would be an easy "problem" for JKR to fill if she had to.

2. This could be a slight inconsistency, but I think JKR could easily get out of this problem too. Petunia did not encourage Harry with his magical education, she was openly mean to him and she was on her way to get Dudder's tail removed, so this could just be another case of Petunia getting a thrill at Harry's expense.

3. I think you made a good catch with with Hermoine's memory modification charm. I just reread both passages and I suppose there could conceivably be a difference between modifying a memory and completely wiping a memory, but I don't think that is what JKR and her editors had in mind. I think you found a genuine mistake.
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Anna-leden
post Jun 13 2009, 02:02 PM
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I agree with Seidenschnabel on those points, except I'd like to add that it's possible J.K Rowling already had portkeys in mind when she wrote this but obviously it was too early to bring it in, so to simplify things she just had Hagrid say "flew" which is also a very Hagrid-like response. If I remember correctly Hagrid was also preoccupied with something too, though I don't have any quotes to hand.


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maiestia
post Jun 13 2009, 08:33 PM
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Something I recently noticed when re-listening to the books, is that Harry sees the Thestrals for the first time when going up to school in OOTP, and we are told he only sees them then as you only see them after seeing someone die. However, at the end of goblet of fire it is mentioned that they get the carriages down to the train, and Harry doesn't see the Thestrals then, but this is after he has seen Cedric die, so in theory he should...
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ABrannock
post Jun 13 2009, 10:31 PM
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I too wondered about the Thestrals. Regardless of Cedric, Harry saw his parents die. Even if he was too young to remember, wouldn't that count?

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The Crimson Arti...
post Jun 13 2009, 11:18 PM
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Although I think the thestral thing was actually something Rowling probably hadn't thought about until Phoenix, Harry could easily have been too distracted to even pay attention to the carriages.

Also, I don't think it's likely that Harry saw his parents die. He was probably in a crib that he couldn't see over, and who knows if his eyes were open or not? And that, I think, is beside the point altogether, because a baby can't honestly understand that someone's just died.


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Courtney Dumbled...
post Jun 13 2009, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE(MacHammer @ Jun 11 2009, 04:26 PM) *
In book 7, Hermione tells Ron and Harry that she has modified her parents' memories so they would move to Australia. Later, when asked if she knows how to do this, she responds that she hasn't done it but thinks she understands how it is done.



JKR said in an interview that there are two different spells going on here. There is a spell that wipes a person's memory (Obliviate) and a spell that implants a false memory into someone's mind. Hermione has done the latter on her parents, but has never done the former.

QUOTE(maiestia @ Jun 13 2009, 06:33 PM) *
Something I recently noticed when re-listening to the books, is that Harry sees the Thestrals for the first time when going up to school in OOTP, and we are told he only sees them then as you only see them after seeing someone die. However, at the end of goblet of fire it is mentioned that they get the carriages down to the train, and Harry doesn't see the Thestrals then, but this is after he has seen Cedric die, so in theory he should...



Harry didn't actually see his parents die. JKR said this in an interview also. He was in his crib and didn't see it. Also, at that age he didn't really understand what was going on anyway. The understanding and acceptance of the death that the person sees is what allows them to see thestrals. Harry, at the end of GoF, hadn't had the moment when Cedric's death really sunk in. That happened over the summer between GoF and OotP, which is why he couldn't see thestrals at the end of book 4 but could at the beginning of book 5, and it's also why he couldn't see them at all before that point.


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Evreka
post Jun 14 2009, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE(MacHammer @ Jun 12 2009, 01:26 AM) *
Next, Vernon and Petunia make a big gag of Platform 9 3/4 and how it doesn't exist. In Snapes memories, we learn that Petunia has actually been ON the platform when Lily left for school. No question here, just an observation.
At first I thought you'd spotted a real mistake here, but I just re-read that passage in PS/SS and as far as I can see the only way in which Petunia is mentioned is in the brown line:
QUOTE
"I just take the train from platform nine and three-quarters at eleven o'clock," he read.
His aunt and uncle stared.
"Platform what?"
"Nine and three-quarters."
For the rest of the passage it is all Vernon's doing makling fun of Harry and his non-existing platform. Now, the way Petunia has gone about her knowledge of the wizarding world in any of the seven books, I am not at all surprised that she doesn't correct Vernon. Even her initial reaction might be that she was taken unaware by this information and relives her sister's first voyage to Hogwarts, one that must have been terribly painful to her. Surely she was as happy as ever to keeping Harry down-trodden and terrified after that remembrance. And why should she have acknowledged any knowledge of the wizarding customs in front of her husband for the sake of her "good-for-nothing" sister's son, when she hasn't ever done so at any other time - save the revelations in early OOTP when she has had quite a shock?

Also, it is Vernon who takes pleasure in showing Harry to the tracks of platforms 9 and 10, and then turn around and leave him there.
QUOTE
"Have a good term," said Uncle Vernon with an even nastier smile. He left without another word. Harry turned and saw the Dursleys drive away. All three of them were laughing.
Sure, Petunia doesn't mind a laugh at Harry's expence, but unlike her husband she must have a suspicion that the magical community will retrieve him somehow, because she knows that he's at the right place.

QUOTE(Seidenschnabel @ Jun 13 2009, 06:14 AM) *
1. ..., but I think it is more likely that he used something like a portkey. We are not specifically told how Hagrid got there, but I think this would be an easy "problem" for JKR to fill if she had to.
Whether Jo had a plan for how Hagrid got there back when this was written or not, I don't know. I guess it is likely she did. But whether she did or not, Harry's (and hence our) understanding of the magical world is at this point completely non-existent. And throughout the books Jo takes care to always explain something thoroughly before using it (like branches of magic, spells, potions, herbs whatever...) And at this point, how could she possibly have given a more thorough explanation that would have been understood?


QUOTE(Courtney Dumbledore @ Jun 14 2009, 06:30 AM) *
QUOTE(maiestia @ Jun 13 2009, 06:33 PM) *
Something I recently noticed when re-listening to the books, is that Harry sees the Thestrals for the first time when going up to school in OOTP, and we are told he only sees them then as you only see them after seeing someone die. However, at the end of goblet of fire it is mentioned that they get the carriages down to the train, and Harry doesn't see the Thestrals then, but this is after he has seen Cedric die, so in theory he should...
Harry didn't actually see his parents die. JKR said this in an interview also. He was in his crib and didn't see it. Also, at that age he didn't really understand what was going on anyway. The understanding and acceptance of the death that the person sees is what allows them to see thestrals. Harry, at the end of GoF, hadn't had the moment when Cedric's death really sunk in. That happened over the summer between GoF and OotP, which is why he couldn't see thestrals at the end of book 4 but could at the beginning of book 5, and it's also why he couldn't see them at all before that point.
Has she actually commented on Harry not seeing Thestrals until OOTP fall/autumn, despite his parents dying when he was one? Because in the interview I recall, the question referred to his parents deaths, whereas her answer referred to Cedric's death! She may have gotten back to this at some other time, though.

However, in the interview I remember she made clear that she chose to let the realisation and acceptance of someone's death be the pivotal point at which you start seeing the Thestrals, because the other alternative would have to be to introduce them at the end of GOF, which she didn't want to do for a number of reasons. However, whether Harry saw his parents die or not, he definitely had had plenty of time to realise and accept that they were gone by the time he first comes to Hogwarts, so if acceptance plays such a big part, why didn't he see them from year one?


This post has been edited by Evreka: Jun 14 2009, 07:53 AM


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SilverDragoness
post Jun 14 2009, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE(Evreka @ Jun 14 2009, 07:52 AM) *
QUOTE(Courtney Dumbledore @ Jun 14 2009, 06:30 AM) *
QUOTE(maiestia @ Jun 13 2009, 06:33 PM) *
Something I recently noticed when re-listening to the books, is that Harry sees the Thestrals for the first time when going up to school in OOTP, and we are told he only sees them then as you only see them after seeing someone die. However, at the end of goblet of fire it is mentioned that they get the carriages down to the train, and Harry doesn't see the Thestrals then, but this is after he has seen Cedric die, so in theory he should...
Harry didn't actually see his parents die. JKR said this in an interview also. He was in his crib and didn't see it. Also, at that age he didn't really understand what was going on anyway. The understanding and acceptance of the death that the person sees is what allows them to see thestrals. Harry, at the end of GoF, hadn't had the moment when Cedric's death really sunk in. That happened over the summer between GoF and OotP, which is why he couldn't see thestrals at the end of book 4 but could at the beginning of book 5, and it's also why he couldn't see them at all before that point.
Has she actually commented on Harry not seeing Thestrals until OOTP fall/autumn, despite his parents dying when he was one? Because in the interview I recall, the question referred to his parents deaths, whereas her answer referred to Cedric's death! She may have gotten back to this at some other time, though.

However, in the interview I remember she made clear that she chose to let the realisation and acceptance of someone's death be the pivotal point at which you start seeing the Thestrals, because the other alternative would have to be to introduce them at the end of GOF, which she didn't want to do for a number of reasons. However, whether Harry saw his parents die or not, he definitely had had plenty of time to realise and accept that they were gone by the time he first comes to Hogwarts, so if acceptance plays such a big part, why didn't he see them from year one?

From her website:
QUOTE
FAQS: Thestrals

Why could Harry see the Thestrals 'Order of the Phoenix'? Shouldn't he have been able to see them much earlier, because he saw his parents/Quirrell/Cedric die?

I’ve been asked this a lot. Harry didn’t see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in ‘Philosopher’s Stone’, all he saw was a flash of green light. He didn’t see Quirrell’s death, either. Harry had passed out before Quirrell died and was only told about it by Dumbledore in the last chapter.

He did, however, witness the murder of Cedric, and it is this that makes him able to see the Thestrals at last. Why couldn’t he see the Thestrals on his trip back to the train station? Well, I didn’t want to start a new mystery, which would not be resolved for a long time, at the very end of the fourth book. I decided, therefore, that until Harry is over the first shock, and really feels what death means (ie, when he fully appreciates that Cedric is gone forever and that he can never come back, which takes time, whatever age you are) he would not be able to see the Thestrals. After two months away from school during which he has dwelled endlessly on his memories of the murder and had nightmares about it, the Thestrals have taken shape and form and he can see them quite clearly.


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Evreka
post Jun 14 2009, 09:39 AM
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Silverdragoness - thanks! I'd forgotten about that entry! smile.gif


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