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Discussion on WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA, Continue the discussion here
Harrys Horntail
post Feb 14 2008, 01:28 AM
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Hi everyone,

Since Part IV of this discussion has reached 50 pages we've closed it and opened this thread to continue the discussion. You can find Part I, Part II and Part III at the links just provided. You'll also find a thread titled "The Impact of this suit on Fandom" thread here.

We do ask that we all remember to remain calm, and fair in our discussion of this topic. We understand that this is a sensitive topic and just ask that before you post you look at your words with the eyes of an outsider.

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Arianhrod
post Feb 14 2008, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
Bottom line, there are two issues at stake here with the SVA/RDR case.

1) PROFIT: A website, like the Lexicon, does not cost a visitor/user anything. Even if there are ads everywhere, it's free to use. Whereas a published, printed book must be purchased. Maybe you can get one at a library, but it's unlikely to be so common as to find it in every local library, so you'd *have* to buy it in order to read it.

Very nice post, magicpants. Very fair and balanced, a rarity around here. smile.gif

Actually, this isn't true. Either copyright is violated or it isn't--the issue of whether or not money is being made off of it is irrelevant. It would affect damages only. That is a common misconception, though. People think that just because money isn't being made that they're okay. Not so. Therefore, JKR's argument that selling the book is a copyright infringement but the online Lexicon is not is incorrect. It's all or nothing--if the book violates, so does the website, if indeed the entire text of the book was lifted from the site. She can't look benevolently on the site but not the book...and the question becomes, did she waive her rights by allowing the website?


QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
2) COPYRIGHT: Publishing the Lexicon book (which, despite conflicting accounts) is likely alphabetized encyclopedic information about the HP books. Which is, at its core, re-arranging content created and owned by JKR. (And while some may argue that publishing the Lexicon Book won't hurt a book published by JKR, given her worldwide success and popularity, one must take into consideration that allowing the Lexicon Book to be published may affect the rights of other less well-known authors and copyright holders who do not have JKR's success. Allowing the Lexicon to be published may set a standard for copyright infringement that could hurt others in future.)

That is debatable. Copyright owners now have a stranglehold on their works. Allowing the Lexicon to be published will not relax the standards for copyright. The internet has done that all by itstelf. Everywhere you look on the internet are copyright violations, including thousands right here at LL. Just to this point in the thread, I've counted several.

QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
(There's also the issue that the Lexicon book would be in competition with the official encyclopedia that JKR intends to create. Knowledgeable HP fans online may know about these nitty gritty details, but average people buying a gift for their child, grandchild, friend, co-worker, etc, won't necessarily know the difference. Buying the Lexicon Book would take away potential buyers of JKR's encyclopedia, the profits of which will go to charity.

This is BS, in my opinion. First of all, the encylcopedia hasn't been started yet. There is no indication as to when we might expect such a project. To claim that Steve's book will interfere with profits when her book may not be published for 5 or 10 years is absurd. And the charity argument is lame, too. If she cares so much, why wait to write the book? She's got more money than the Queen--she can donate some now.

This is about power, and no mistake. Philanthropy has nothing to do with it.

QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
On top of all that, the Lexicon (website and book) is bound to have inaccuracies in it, simply because Steve Vander Ark is *not* the authority on all things Harry Potter, JK Rowling is. I'm not sure whether or not that has any legal bearing in the matter, but it may not be that great for consumers who expect 100% correct information from an encyclopedia, and maybe JKR is entitled to protect consumers from that kind of misinformation and inaccuracy.)

I'll bet a hundred galleons that any encyclopedia of JKR's would have had the same mistakes as the Lexicon. It's my guess that she intended to copy and paste right from the Lex into the encyclopedia. Not all of it, certainly, but lets face it, the Lex is one of the best resources for HP mania out there. It may not be 100% accurate, but neither is Encyclopedia Britannica.


QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
Why? Because Leaky was doing them a favour by hosting the site for free. And in Melissa's view, once there was a change in circumstances (ie, ads on the Lexicon), SVA should have offered or asked if he should pay or contribute to the cost of hosting the Lexicon.

Melissa sees such an offer as an act of courtesy in an amicable working relationship. That, as she has pointed out, has little do with the legal issues at stake, but is important to her on a personal level. However, (n)etiquette in such matters isn't exactly universal: everyone knows CONSTANT CAPSLOCK is rude, but this is less common and more intricate. Steve may not have realized he was doing anything that Melissa would find hurtful or disrespectful, and there was nothing stopping Melissa/Leaky from discussing it with SVA, asking about the ads once she/they found out about them, and determining whether or not anything in their arrangement should change.

If Melissa felt she was being disrespected, she should have contacted Steve and asked him to pay his share. It's not that difficult to do. You pick up the phone and do it. I think a lot of this could have been avoided had there been better communication.

QUOTE
Since the issue of money (and what it is used for) was raised, SVA points out that compared to Emerson Spartz of MuggleNet (who allegedly makes a six-figure income off of all things MuggleNet), any revenue generated from advertisements on the Lexicon is fairly insignificant.

It appears as though SVA, in an attempt to defend himself, is convoluting the main issues at stake (Profiting off of the Lexicon Book and Copyright Infringement of JKR's work). Maybe he's trying to drag other websites that earn money (whether for profit or to "support the site") into the case, in order to better justify him making a profit off of his book.

No, that isn't what he's doing. What he's saying is that the pot is calling the kettle black. If he's being ripped to shreds because he chose to attempt to make a living off of the Lexicon, which is run by volunteers, then he is not the only one. Emerson has admitted that he makes a nice living from MuggleNet--the last I heard it was six figures. The same applies to others...maybe not quite as much, but enough to make a decent living. You don't quit your day job to run a website full time unless you're pulling in some serious cash--at least the amount you were making before. Quitting your job without an alternate cash flow doesn't make sense.

When did Steve quit his job? Not long before he moved to London, I'd wager. It's not like he quit last year or two years ago. He wasn't making enough money to justify it, it's plain and simple. Others within the fandom have been more fortunate, and it's a pretty good guess that Emerson isn't the only one.

QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
Emerson supposedly makes a substantial amount of money off of MN, and there's at least one article that reports Ben and Andrew as receiving a salary for their work at MN. Do salaries such as theirs count as profit, or supporting the site? It's hard to say. Paying staff to do the work that keeps things running could count as "supporting the site", but how does one draw the line between compensation and significant profit? Where and how does one decide who should be a paid staff member and an unpaid volunteer? That's a can of worms, I'm sure.

Does (or should) making money off of such a website count as copyright infringement? Both MN and TLC use images, videos, and information about HP on their websites. Both surely generate revenue from ads and selling merchandise. How much or how little of that revenue is needed to support the website's financial costs, and where does the leftover money (if there is any) go?

My guess is that it depends on the tax status of the organization. You can file non-profit but still be required to pay tax, or you can be non-profit and tax exempt. I believe those records must be disclosed. If you are registered as a for-profit, I'm not so sure. However, here's the rub with that. If you are registered as a for-profit and an LLC, is your staff considered employees? If so, should they be paid?

An entity that's designated as an LLC must make that public. If it's an Inc., it can be either S Corp or C Corp. If it's an S, it's probably taxed like an LLC. Sorry, it's been years since I had business and media law; I might be wrong.

The whole purpose of a non-profit, as I stated in the last thread, is to ensure than no one person or shareholder accumulates all the money.

QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
It could be argued that MN and TLC provide a news service and entertainment, and that they have every right to make a profit off of their websites. If so, they don't need to divulge any information about how much or how little profit they make and where or to whom that money goes. It's not our business, it's theirs. It may even be detrimental to such websites for financial information to be given to the public, especially if such a website draws popularity by presenting an image of being run by hardworking volunteers. (It may even be detrimental to the running of a site if there are a few paid employees and a large number of unpaid volunteers who are unaware that others working on the site are paid.)

So what does this all have to with our (former!) friend, Lexicon Steve? Is it arguable if that websites like MN and TLC can be legitimate profit-making businesses, maybe SVA/RDR has more of a case for profiting off of a book based on JKR's work? Again, I'm not sure. (I still think the point about a website being free to use, versus a book which one has to pay for, is very significant.)

No, it isn't. And Steve is not a former friend. He is still a big part of the fandom. Just because he doesn't toe the party line and sing to JKR's Tune of the Month doesn't make him a fan's enemy. He is doing what most people would do (and are doing)--and it's too bad that people aren't honest enough with themselves to admit that.


This post has been edited by Arianhrod: Feb 14 2008, 11:31 AM


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jeleyan
post Feb 14 2008, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE
QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM) *
(There's also the issue that the Lexicon book would be in competition with the official encyclopedia that JKR intends to create. Knowledgeable HP fans online may know about these nitty gritty details, but average people buying a gift for their child, grandchild, friend, co-worker, etc, won't necessarily know the difference. Buying the Lexicon Book would take away potential buyers of JKR's encyclopedia, the profits of which will go to charity.

This is BS, in my opinion. First of all, the encylcopedia hasn't been started yet. There is no indication as to when we might expect such a project. To claim that Steve's book will interfere with profits when her book may not be published for 5 or 10 years is absurd. And the charity argument is lame, too. If she cares so much, why wait to write the book? She's got more money than the Queen--she can donate some now.

This is about power, and no mistake. Philanthropy has nothing to do with it.

why do you care that JKR is rich? Just because someone is rich doesn't mean they lose their rights. And she has donated huge sums to charity (like the 30 million from the 2 companion books, plus Beadle the Bard, plus founding the childrens charity), etc.


QUOTE
I'll bet a hundred galleons that any encyclopedia of JKR's would have had the same mistakes as the Lexicon. It's my guess that she intended to copy and paste right from the Lex into the encyclopedia. Not all of it, certainly, but lets face it, the Lex is one of the best resources for HP mania out there. It may not be 100% accurate, but neither is Encyclopedia Britannica.


rolleyes.gif Where did this assumption come from? What's your evidence? Why make an accusation which you cannot in any way substantiate?
As for the lexicon being one of the best HP resources, some of us would strongly disagree.
Harry Potter has never been a collaborative effort for JKR. If she needs some help with something, I would imagine she asks those whom she knows, like someone from Bloomsbury or Scholastic.
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- Sethtaylorsummer   Discussion on WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA   Feb 14 2008, 01:28 AM
- - magicpants   This is a fairly long post, but I am trying to mak...   Feb 14 2008, 02:24 AM
- - Hinoema   I'd like to add one more thing, if I may, afte...   Feb 14 2008, 02:56 AM
|- - magicpants   QUOTE(Hinoema @ Feb 14 2008, 08:56 AM) As...   Feb 14 2008, 03:19 AM
|- - Lidane   QUOTE(magicpants @ Feb 14 2008, 02:19 AM)...   Feb 14 2008, 03:47 AM
- - linden swallow   Hinoema - you write: "The first question I th...   Feb 14 2008, 05:41 AM
- - Hinoema   QUOTE(linden swallow @ Feb 14 2008, 11:41...   Feb 14 2008, 06:39 AM
- - Moriah   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 14 2008, 12:58 A...   Feb 14 2008, 07:11 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Moriah @ Feb 14 2008, 12:11 PM) I ...   Feb 14 2008, 08:22 AM
|- - theredwitch   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 14 2008, 01:22 P...   Feb 14 2008, 09:19 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(theredwitch @ Feb 14 2008, 03:19 PM...   Feb 14 2008, 11:33 AM
- - tgfoy   Having no knowledge of the way the system works in...   Feb 14 2008, 07:15 AM
- - wondering   It is puzzling me but if in a case such as this on...   Feb 14 2008, 08:38 AM
|- - Moriah   QUOTE(wondering @ Feb 14 2008, 08:38 AM) ...   Feb 14 2008, 08:52 AM
|- - tgfoy   [quote name='wondering' date='Feb 14 2...   Feb 14 2008, 09:33 AM
- - Hinoema   Personally I see no problem with Melissa expressin...   Feb 14 2008, 09:28 AM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(Hinoema @ Feb 14 2008, 02:28 PM) Pe...   Feb 14 2008, 10:16 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Feb 14 2008, 09:42 AM) ...   Feb 14 2008, 12:03 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Feb 14 2008, 03:42 PM) ...   Feb 14 2008, 12:10 PM
||- - Henrietta   QUOTE(roonwit @ Feb 14 2008, 09:10 AM) QU...   Feb 14 2008, 01:01 PM
|- - Lidane   QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Feb 14 2008, 10:42 AM) ...   Feb 14 2008, 07:24 PM
|- - magicpants   Hi, back for another long-winded post, in response...   Feb 16 2008, 02:39 AM
|- - magicpants   QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Feb 14 2008, 04:42 PM) ...   Feb 16 2008, 02:43 AM
- - wondering   Oh, I thought the expert witness was Professor Jan...   Feb 14 2008, 11:09 AM
- - Arianhrod   QUOTE(Hinoema @ Feb 14 2008, 02:56 AM) Th...   Feb 14 2008, 11:12 AM
- - Arianhrod   QUOTEwhy do you care that JKR is rich? Just becaus...   Feb 14 2008, 11:38 AM
|- - futureweasley   QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Feb 14 2008, 11:38 AM) ...   Feb 14 2008, 11:45 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Feb 14 2008, 05:38 PM) ...   Feb 14 2008, 11:55 AM
- - wondering   But this is about the legal, not personal, aspects...   Feb 14 2008, 12:07 PM
- - DorisTLC   Hi Everyone, First, I've changed the name of...   Feb 14 2008, 12:08 PM
- - Arianhrod   QUOTEAsking why you care about JKR's personal ...   Feb 14 2008, 01:01 PM
- - Arianhrod   QUOTEYes, quitting your job without an alternative...   Feb 14 2008, 01:02 PM
- - Essence_of_Insanity   Can we please just stop all the personal attacks d...   Feb 14 2008, 01:12 PM
- - Hinoema   This would be a good time for me to thank whoever ...   Feb 14 2008, 01:19 PM
- - gypsyweasley   I second Hinoema's post....I'd never heard...   Feb 14 2008, 01:37 PM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   I've read quite a few of rulings cited, but di...   Feb 14 2008, 01:54 PM
|- - gypsyweasley   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 14 2008, 06...   Feb 14 2008, 05:59 PM
|- - Vicky-the-house-elf   QUOTE(gypsyweasley @ Feb 14 2008, 04:59 P...   Feb 14 2008, 06:34 PM
- - davidenglish   Well, although Jo has joked that her encyclopedia ...   Feb 14 2008, 02:23 PM
- - Vicky-the-house-elf   The following is OFF TOPIC, but I had to address t...   Feb 14 2008, 04:31 PM
|- - Ilzairspar   QUOTE(Vicky-the-house-elf @ Fe...   Feb 14 2008, 05:11 PM
|- - Vicky-the-house-elf   QUOTE(Ilzairspar @ Feb 14 2008, 04:11 PM)...   Feb 14 2008, 05:27 PM
- - CommonLoon   QUOTE(Arianhrod)I didn't raise the issue of mo...   Feb 14 2008, 05:39 PM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(gypsyweasley)Basically, what could happen (a...   Feb 14 2008, 08:13 PM
- - rotfang07   By the sound of things this case will run and run....   Feb 14 2008, 08:33 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEAnd the charity argument is lame, too. If she...   Feb 14 2008, 08:38 PM
- - davidenglish   Jo is following in the great tradition of children...   Feb 14 2008, 09:03 PM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEI'll bet a hundred galleons that any ency...   Feb 14 2008, 09:49 PM
- - theredwitch   You know, if there is a market for this type of a ...   Feb 14 2008, 09:55 PM
- - davidenglish   Did I miss something or was there no mention of th...   Feb 14 2008, 09:55 PM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 14 2008, 08:55 P...   Feb 14 2008, 10:24 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 15 2008, 03...   Feb 15 2008, 03:42 AM
- - davidenglish   Thanks, dresdenfiles.fan. I reread Melanie Bradley...   Feb 15 2008, 08:26 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 15 2008, 07:26 A...   Feb 15 2008, 09:17 AM
- - davidenglish   Well, I've been trying to make sense of Google...   Feb 15 2008, 11:52 AM
- - CapriciousC   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 14 2008, 08:33 A...   Feb 15 2008, 01:01 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(CapriciousC @ Feb 15 2008, 07:01 PM...   Feb 15 2008, 02:48 PM
|- - Vicky-the-house-elf   QUOTE(CapriciousC @ Feb 15 2008, 12:01 PM...   Feb 15 2008, 02:51 PM
- - Hinoema   David- check this out. This guy has pretty much th...   Feb 15 2008, 01:26 PM
- - CapriciousC   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 15 2008, 11:48 A...   Feb 15 2008, 03:23 PM
- - davidenglish   Okay, so I had lunch today with a friend who is an...   Feb 15 2008, 07:37 PM
|- - gypsyweasley   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 16 2008, 12:37 A...   Feb 15 2008, 10:19 PM
- - NickTLC   Hi guys! Just a friendly reminder to keep thi...   Feb 15 2008, 07:51 PM
- - davidenglish   Don't the British betting shops give odds on s...   Feb 15 2008, 09:35 PM
- - rotfang07   I agree with CapriciousC, Post 56, that the Lexico...   Feb 15 2008, 09:38 PM
- - jmk132   Hello everyone. I've never actually posted on...   Feb 15 2008, 10:17 PM
- - davidenglish   Wow, great post, jmk132. And thanks. On the q...   Feb 15 2008, 11:18 PM
|- - MaraudingDon   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 16 2008, 05:18 A...   Feb 15 2008, 11:38 PM
- - davidenglish   Well, MaraudingDon, you can check out that first H...   Feb 15 2008, 11:56 PM
- - cbm   jmk132, Thanks for the informative post. So is...   Feb 16 2008, 12:51 AM
- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(MaraudingDon @ Feb 15 2008, 11:38 P...   Feb 16 2008, 01:10 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 16 2008, 12...   Feb 16 2008, 04:17 AM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 16 2008, 04...   Feb 16 2008, 09:06 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 16 2008, 08...   Feb 16 2008, 09:37 AM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEA book like Steve's would provide a great...   Feb 16 2008, 01:48 AM
- - PiaSharn   jmk132, I would also like to add my thanks for you...   Feb 16 2008, 02:09 AM
- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(Eir de Scania @ Feb 16 2008, 01:48 ...   Feb 16 2008, 02:13 AM
- - Hinoema   Welcome, jmk132! Excellent post! QUOTE(cb...   Feb 16 2008, 02:25 AM
- - rotfang07   I just wanted to thank jmk 132 Post 65 for sheddin...   Feb 16 2008, 05:09 AM
- - linden swallow   Rotfang07 - what a depressing picture, to think of...   Feb 16 2008, 05:45 AM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEAs for being obsolete with Jo's books pub...   Feb 16 2008, 06:22 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   I just received an email from a friend and fellow ...   Feb 16 2008, 08:58 AM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEDon't think for a moment that sites such ...   Feb 16 2008, 10:33 AM
- - jmk132   On damages: cbm: QUOTESo is the following sequenc...   Feb 16 2008, 10:44 AM
- - luna'sceiling   Eir de ScaniaI appreciate your point and the thoug...   Feb 16 2008, 11:33 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   luna'sceiling that study can be found here: ...   Feb 16 2008, 11:41 AM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 16 2008, 11...   Feb 16 2008, 02:37 PM
- - davidenglish   Well, I know that SVA is not the face of Harry Pot...   Feb 16 2008, 11:47 AM
- - Hinoema   Does anyone have a link to that publishing contrac...   Feb 16 2008, 01:33 PM
- - davidenglish   Hi, hinoema. The Contract is here. It's not a ...   Feb 16 2008, 01:39 PM
- - Hinoema   Thank you! *reads* This is interesting. The ...   Feb 16 2008, 02:48 PM
- - jmk132   luna'sceiling: I agree with your assessment of...   Feb 16 2008, 04:12 PM
- - davidenglish   Warner Bros is an assignee; it owns the film right...   Feb 16 2008, 04:31 PM
- - rotfang07   Thank you jmk132 Posts 86 and 94 once again for sh...   Feb 16 2008, 05:04 PM
|- - coweatyou   QUOTE(rotfang07 @ Feb 16 2008, 02:04 PM) ...   Feb 16 2008, 05:29 PM
- - davidenglish   Well, I don't have much respect for the egghea...   Feb 16 2008, 05:54 PM
|- - coweatyou   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 16 2008, 02:54 P...   Feb 16 2008, 07:10 PM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEthis whole discussion is very much moot becau...   Feb 16 2008, 06:15 PM
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