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Leaky Lounge > HP-Related Discussion: Diagon Alley > Leaky Sites: Cauldron's Corner > Special Event Archives > WB/JKR vs. RDR Thread Archive

 
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Discussion on WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA - Cont'd
DorisTLC
post Feb 27 2008, 08:28 AM
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The former version of this thread was getting a bit longish, and as we'll get new information today (or possibly tomorrow) I felt it was time to start a new thread.

[slips on Ruby Red admin slippers]

Please remember that we're trying to keep this hotly debated topic as civil as possible. We ask that you remember that this thread open for discussion on the information regarding this case, and do not use this thread to personally attack anyone involved or anyone posting on this topic. This thread is here to discuss the facts on the topic at hand, and to bring about a deeper understanding for all of us.

Previous discussion links ...

Most recent thread titled WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA
Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
"The Impact of this suit on Fandom"

We do ask that we all remember to remain calm and fair in our discussion of this topic. We understand that this is a sensitive topic and just ask that before you post you look at your words with the eyes of an outsider.

Thanks everyone for being understanding, and we look forward to the discussion.

Doris


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Hinoema
post Feb 27 2008, 12:23 PM
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That's okay, I constantly type sue instead of use. Am I destined to be an IP lawyer or what? ;)

QUOTE(wondering @ Feb 27 2008, 05:52 PM) *
Hinoema: Do you think the case is stronger if it's pursued under SVA's rights to the material? And if they had, would SVA be held liable for signing that he had those rights? I've wondered: if the book had included original artwork and essays, would that have balanced against the amount of paraphrased/quoted material? Made the book, as a whole, more legal?


Stronger? In all honesty, I don't see how it could be strong at all, I'm afraid.

Even the sections quoted above by luna'scieling are merely paraphrasing with the sort of trivia that anyone with access to Google could come up with in five minutes. Plus, it doesn't relate the trivia to the entry. So the entry says:

"The Hanged Man is the name of a card found in a Tarot fortune telling deck. It signifies that a questioner is trapped or stuck in a position, perhaps between opposites."

Well, yes, and? How does that relate to the "Hanged man Pub" of the HP 'verse? Without something like "Due to the pub's relation to these famous murders and it's use to eternally discuss them, it seems as if the patrons are analogous to the questioner trapped in this position, torn between the opposites of Bryce's innocence or guilt, making the name very apt indeed"- without this kind of tie in, the extra verbiage is just irrelevant clutter.

I mention the rights issue not in light of a different approach to the case, but to note that if this statement made in the contract turns out to be false, then yes, there well could be consequences there as well. RDR may consider suing SVA for misrepresentation or breach of contract, which may render the contract void and the indemnification clause moot. (I'll have to research that or ask an expert.)

And oh, yes, (she edits predictably), if the amount of original material and analysis far outweighed the amount of quotation and paraphrase, fair use might well apply. Also, if the book were more of an analysis and not an encyclopedia, in this form and format with this extreme degree of paraphrase, it may well have gotten permission from JKR/ CLLA/ etc. (Like the oft cited "Guide to HP Places" that should have been.)

This post has been edited by Hinoema: Feb 27 2008, 12:27 PM


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luna'sceiling
post Feb 27 2008, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE(Hinoema @ Feb 27 2008, 12:23 PM) *
That's okay, I constantly type sue instead of use. Am I destined to be an IP lawyer or what? ;)

Well, yes, and? How does that relate to the "Hanged man Pub" of the HP 'verse? Without something like "Due to the pub's relation to these famous murders and it's use to eternally discuss them, it seems as if the patrons are analogous to the questioner trapped in this position, torn between the opposites of Bryce's innocence or guilt, making the name very apt indeed"- without this kind of tie in, the extra verbiage is just irrelevant clutter.

Perhaps if he wins, you should write your own, that is very good.


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davidenglish
post Feb 27 2008, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 27 2008, 05:59 PM) *
Perhaps if he wins, you should write your own, that is very good.
I agree that Hinoema's example of commentary when explaining The Hanged Man Pub was very good. However, she wouldn't need SVA to win to write her own. She demonstrated an example of Fair Use. By bringing a critical understanding to the theme of the pub's name on the doubts raised by the mysterious Riddle murders, she's transformed the simple encyclopedic entry into something more.

BTW, check out the editorial reviews for David Colbert's The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter to see how transformational use is described.


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luna'sceiling
post Feb 27 2008, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 27 2008, 01:13 PM) *
QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 27 2008, 05:59 PM) *
Perhaps if he wins, you should write your own, that is very good.
I agree that Hinoema's example of commentary when explaining The Hanged Man Pub was very good. However, she wouldn't need SVA to win to write her own. She demonstrated an example of Fair Use. By bringing a critical understanding to the theme of the pub's name on the doubts raised by the mysterious Riddle murders, she's transformed the simple encyclopedic entry into something more.


Can you cite an example from the Benson book to justify claims that all others are fair use?

This post has been edited by luna'sceiling: Feb 27 2008, 07:10 PM


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Posts in this topic
- DorisTLC   Discussion on WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA - Cont'd   Feb 27 2008, 08:28 AM
- - Hinoema   Ok, since I thought I made some good, relevant poi...   Feb 27 2008, 09:57 AM
- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 26 2008, 09...   Feb 27 2008, 11:24 AM
- - Hinoema   QUOTE(luna'scieling)I would note the JKR/WB br...   Feb 27 2008, 11:36 AM
- - luna'sceiling   SVA has testimony from his own expert witness. Th...   Feb 27 2008, 11:47 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 27 2008, 10...   Feb 27 2008, 03:01 PM
- - wondering   davidenglish: thanks for the great reply to the gr...   Feb 27 2008, 11:52 AM
- - davidenglish   In his declaration, SVA speaks of having written 6...   Feb 27 2008, 12:20 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 27 2008, 11...   Feb 27 2008, 07:27 PM
- - emmessann   I found an interesting rebuttal to the $4 bil...   Feb 27 2008, 12:34 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(emmessann @ Feb 27 2008, 05:34 PM) ...   Feb 27 2008, 12:55 PM
- - Hinoema   Hee, thanks! I see David's post just Floo...   Feb 27 2008, 01:07 PM
- - davidenglish   There was an earthquake in Britain today. SVA felt...   Feb 27 2008, 04:46 PM
|- - MaraudingDon   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 27 2008, 10:46 P...   Feb 27 2008, 10:15 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(MaraudingDon @ Feb 28 2008, 03:15 A...   Feb 27 2008, 11:41 PM
- - Oxymoronic   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 27 2008, 04:46 P...   Feb 27 2008, 06:17 PM
- - momwitch   wondering QUOTEmomwitch: You can donate your movie...   Feb 27 2008, 06:21 PM
- - luna'sceiling   I have a link for the amazon listing. Perhaps CLLA...   Feb 27 2008, 08:35 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 28 2008, 01...   Feb 27 2008, 08:49 PM
- - Hinoema   Yes, but based on past statements, it's unusua...   Feb 27 2008, 11:52 PM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(Hinoema @ Feb 27 2008, 11:52 PM) Th...   Feb 28 2008, 12:49 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   The real pity is that this book could have had ser...   Feb 28 2008, 12:47 AM
- - jeleyan   JKR and WB have filed their reply. Melissa is pos...   Feb 28 2008, 01:01 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(JK Rowling)"...feels frustrated that a ...   Feb 28 2008, 01:18 AM
- - Ilzairspar   So I've got to ask dresdenfiles.fan and cbm. ...   Feb 28 2008, 01:42 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(Ilzairspar @ Feb 28 2008, 12:42 AM)...   Feb 28 2008, 02:23 AM
|- - cbm   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 28 2008, 02...   Feb 28 2008, 10:57 AM
|- - MaraudingDon   QUOTE(cbm @ Feb 28 2008, 04:57 PM) I just...   Feb 28 2008, 06:00 PM
- - linden swallow   I'm glad to read Melissa's summary of the ...   Feb 28 2008, 02:02 AM
- - Hinoema   We're being watched! *ominous chord* I ha...   Feb 28 2008, 03:02 AM
- - Oxymoronic   Well, my head is spinning a bit right now - and th...   Feb 28 2008, 03:04 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(Oxymoronic)(is the info up on Justia for us ...   Feb 28 2008, 03:30 AM
- - MaraudingDon   QUOTE10. ...feels frustrated that a “former fan” h...   Feb 28 2008, 04:30 AM
- - EricHP2   QUOTEMs. Blumsack also notes that 40 percent of th...   Feb 28 2008, 08:42 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(EricHP2 @ Feb 28 2008, 07:42 AM) QU...   Feb 28 2008, 09:06 AM
|- - momwitch   QUOTE(EricHP2 @ Feb 28 2008, 01:42 PM) QU...   Feb 28 2008, 12:09 PM
- - hck   Using the TLC summary of the recent WB/JRK sespons...   Feb 28 2008, 09:46 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(hck @ Feb 28 2008, 08:46 AM) Using ...   Feb 28 2008, 10:02 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(hck @ Feb 28 2008, 02:46 PM) But in...   Feb 28 2008, 10:03 AM
||- - hck   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 28 2008, 10:03 P...   Feb 28 2008, 11:15 AM
|- - coweatyou   QUOTE(hck @ Feb 28 2008, 06:46 AM) But in...   Feb 28 2008, 10:17 PM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEBut in case you want to read somebody who is ...   Feb 28 2008, 10:07 AM
- - Henrietta   I have a background in Latin, Ancient Greek and Fr...   Feb 28 2008, 10:07 AM
- - davidenglish   On the subject of SVA's right to change his mi...   Feb 28 2008, 11:36 AM
- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 28 2008, 09...   Feb 28 2008, 11:37 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 28 2008, 04...   Feb 28 2008, 11:57 AM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 28 2008, 10...   Feb 28 2008, 12:19 PM
|- - cbm   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 28 2008, 11...   Feb 28 2008, 12:57 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(cbm @ Feb 28 2008, 05:57 PM) We wil...   Feb 28 2008, 01:19 PM
- - davidenglish   Now, if we take a satirical page out of John Tehra...   Feb 28 2008, 12:49 PM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   *Goggles* at the amount of moolah quoted in that h...   Feb 28 2008, 12:56 PM
- - MelissaTLC   Just an FYI, since Justia wasn't updated this ...   Feb 28 2008, 01:18 PM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   Ouch, ouch OUCH!!! Jeri Johnson...   Feb 28 2008, 01:21 PM
- - Oxymoronic   Quick question - is anyone else having trouble ope...   Feb 28 2008, 02:34 PM
- - MelissaTLC   Try now; I had named it wrong.   Feb 28 2008, 02:37 PM
- - Oxymoronic   Well, now that I've followed all the links Mel...   Feb 28 2008, 03:42 PM
- - davidenglish   Okay, let me talk about a couple of things in Blum...   Feb 28 2008, 05:09 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 28 2008, 10:09 P...   Feb 28 2008, 05:39 PM
|- - cbm   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 28 2008, 05:09 P...   Feb 29 2008, 12:27 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   "As shown above, the irreparable harm to Plai...   Feb 28 2008, 06:04 PM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 28 2008, 06...   Feb 28 2008, 06:39 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 28 2008, 11...   Feb 28 2008, 06:58 PM
- - davidenglish   Via those amusings wags at JournalFen, there is a ...   Feb 28 2008, 06:07 PM
|- - MaraudingDon   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 29 2008, 12:07 A...   Feb 28 2008, 06:41 PM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 28 2008, 05...   Feb 28 2008, 07:00 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 29 2008, 12...   Feb 28 2008, 07:13 PM
|- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTE(roonwit @ Feb 28 2008, 06:13 PM) QU...   Feb 28 2008, 07:51 PM
- - davidenglish   Well, I applaud Dale Cendali and her team on deliv...   Feb 28 2008, 07:36 PM
|- - CommonLoon   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 28 2008, 08:36 P...   Feb 28 2008, 07:56 PM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(CommonLoon @ Feb 28 2008, 07:56 PM)...   Feb 29 2008, 10:17 AM
- - roonwit   justia.com have caught up and have the documents w...   Feb 28 2008, 07:56 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   I'm a little baffled by this continued discuss...   Feb 28 2008, 08:40 PM
|- - coweatyou   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 28 2008, 05...   Feb 28 2008, 09:03 PM
- - davidenglish   This was the edit that put SVA into a self-righteo...   Feb 28 2008, 09:27 PM
- - sdcurtis   One thing that I find interesting is the series of...   Feb 28 2008, 10:38 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(sdcurtis @ Feb 29 2008, 04:38 AM) O...   Feb 28 2008, 11:04 PM
- - CommonLoon   Well, the rattlesnakeroot LiveJournal takes severa...   Feb 28 2008, 10:55 PM
- - EricHP2   CommonLoon, I agree with you, however I think that...   Feb 28 2008, 11:12 PM
- - DaisyRenee   First off, Melissa, many thanks for your excellent...   Feb 28 2008, 11:54 PM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   Wil Wheaton? Oh, come on now! {Okay, I admit ...   Feb 29 2008, 12:01 AM
|- - coweatyou   QUOTE(dresdenfiles.fan @ Feb 28 2008, 09...   Feb 29 2008, 12:51 AM
- - dresdenfiles.fan   QUOTEYou missed the most important exhibit, Exhibi...   Feb 29 2008, 12:45 AM
- - MelissaTLC   I don't know about time/etc yet because it pro...   Feb 29 2008, 01:03 AM
- - davidenglish   I think we also have to look at Roger Rapoport...   Feb 29 2008, 01:15 AM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 29 2008, 06:15 A...   Feb 29 2008, 05:20 AM
- - Hinoema   QUOTE(davidenglish)I still find the timeline of th...   Feb 29 2008, 04:06 AM
- - Eir de Scania   QUOTEAnyway, that's my one contribution of cra...   Feb 29 2008, 04:36 AM
- - Hinoema   Not looking for conspiracy, just ruminating on som...   Feb 29 2008, 07:08 AM
- - davidenglish   QUOTE(roonwit @ Feb 29 2008, 11:20 AM) I ...   Feb 29 2008, 08:34 AM
- - wondering   Not looking for conspiracy, just ruminating on som...   Feb 29 2008, 09:42 AM
- - beth83   I've just started reading the latest documents...   Feb 29 2008, 09:47 AM
- - limany   QUOTEBeing critical favors him especially when it ...   Feb 29 2008, 11:08 AM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(limany @ Feb 29 2008, 11:08 AM) QUO...   Feb 29 2008, 11:37 AM
- - davidenglish   QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ Feb 29 2008, 03...   Feb 29 2008, 11:48 AM
|- - luna'sceiling   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 29 2008, 11:48 A...   Feb 29 2008, 12:39 PM
- - Hinoema   QUOTE(davidenglish)Am I looking for a conspiracy? ...   Feb 29 2008, 12:55 PM
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