Divination And Dumbledore, To what extent can Dumbledore foretell the future? |
  Sep 19 2006, 12:50 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup  Posts: 22 Joined: 12:58pm September 12, 2006 Location: Exploring the Deathly Hallows  |
So, here's a question for all of you. Discuss:
We know that throughout the books, Dumbledore is percived as having some degree of abillity to, um, know things that happen in the future. I am reminded that in Book 1, Harry often wonders if Dumbledore knows what he is about to do (especially when providing him with the invisibillity cloak at just the right time.) Is this just a matter of Dumbeldore being good at Legillimency combined with some intuition, or do you think he has some abillity twoards divination? Is he more of a trelawney, being able to foretell small, everyday things, or more like the centaurs, who see a larger picture but have difficulty with the day to day? Or does he just have good connections with Seers such as the centaurs? I personally think he could have some very strong divination abillities, both because of hints from the books, and because it just makes sense, considering what a strong wizard he is. It wouldn't surprise me if he was as strong, if not better, than the centaurs at this. Also, I wonder if he has foreseen much, if not all, of what has and will happen with Voldemort throughout the books. -------------------- "Rita Skeeter better shut her mouth before she gets in trouble..."
-Harry and the Potters- |
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Sep 19 2006, 03:06 PM
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Gambol and Japes' Research Department Posts: 1,375 Joined: 3:41pm July 24, 2005 Location: The Time Room of the DoM, trying to find a way to slow down time   |
I think if DD has any ability in Divination, he either doesn't trust it or doesn't really recognize it for that. He doesn't really place any credibility to the subject and maintains that its choices that hold value, not prophecies.
-------------------- "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"  Thanks for the use of the Garden image tanyal33! |
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Sep 19 2006, 03:10 PM
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever  Posts: 9,332 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
Dumbledore tells us himself that he never studied divination, so I don't think he uses it. However, Dumbledore is very clever, so I think he can to some degree work out what is likely to happen from what is already known.
--------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Sep 19 2006, 05:10 PM
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 308 Joined: 3:06pm May 3, 2006 |
maybe DD used a time-turner to the future and that's how he knew that he could sacrifice himself, etc
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Sep 20 2006, 02:34 AM
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 282 Joined: 1:38am June 16, 2006 Location: London |
I don't think that we can deny that DD is really exceptionally smart. He observes events and makes conclusions. He makes good guesses.
I don't think that DD ever resorted to divination in his life. He never even believed in the subject, he didn't want it to continue in his school. He didn't believe that prophecies can be true. He uses too much logic in my opinion, I even suspect that he underestimated Trlawney's abilities to make true ptophecies (rarelly though). But his approach is indeed very understandable. Divination is so unreliable and unpredictable, one can do much better by just following one's own logic most of the time. -------------------- 'Excuse me, are you the imprint of a departed soul?' Ron Weasley
'Are you quite sure you wouldn't like a cough drop, Dolores?' Professor McGonagall 'Really, Severus, I see no reason to stop the boy playing Quidditch. This cat wasn't hit over the head with a broomstick'. Professor McGonagall |
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Sep 20 2006, 07:09 AM
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#6
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,332 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(Saint_Helga @ Sep 20 2006, 08:34 AM) [snapback]954193[/snapback] He didn't believe that prophecies can be true. He uses too much logic in my opinion, I even suspect that he underestimated Trlawney's abilities to make true ptophecies (rarelly though). But his approach is indeed very understandable. Divination is so unreliable and unpredictable, one can do much better by just following one's own logic most of the time. I think that is going too far. Dumbledore does indeed believe there are real prophecies, though recognizes that you can choose not to be bound by them. I am sure he also takes whatever Trelawney says into account, and could well have recognized that the doom Trelawney was seeing at the end was real, even if he didn't obviously act on that information.
-------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Sep 22 2006, 06:24 PM
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Gambol and Japes' Research Department Posts: 1,375 Joined: 3:41pm July 24, 2005 Location: The Time Room of the DoM, trying to find a way to slow down time |
QUOTE(ryplo2 @ Sep 19 2006, 06:10 PM) [snapback]953829[/snapback] maybe DD used a time-turner to the future and that's how he knew that he could sacrifice himself, etc I don't think so. That kind of feels like cheating to me. I don't think DD would resort to that. Besides, if that was his strategy, he would be a very cruel person to not have prevented Harry's being orphaned. -------------------- "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" Thanks for the use of the Garden image tanyal33! |
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Sep 27 2006, 05:33 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 13 Joined: 5:29pm September 27, 2006 Location: South Carolina, USA |
All of this being said....how would it explain his misjudgement of Snape?
Did DD know something about Snape that he didn't want anyone else to know....and did he keep him "protected" until prophecy could be fulfilled? Did he know Snape must have some hand in the end? WHY, if DD had this uncanny insight into so many things, could he overlook or miss something seemingly so big? Something that was seemingly quite obvious......or was there some pact between Snape and DD if it were to ever come to the point that DD must die.....in order for Snape to be trusted by VM, was he to kill DD himself?? I have so many questions and I am anxiously awaiting, like everyone else, the outcome..... 
-------------------- What d'you mean, "gone on"? Gone on where? Listen-what happens when you die anyway? Where do you go? Why doesn't everyone come back? Why isn't this place full of ghosts?Why-----?" (HP, bk 5, p 861hardback)
Me & Casey |
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Sep 29 2006, 08:29 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 22 Joined: 12:58pm September 12, 2006 Location: Exploring the Deathly Hallows |
I should make myself more clear, since I dont think this is a question with a yes or no answer:
1) There are several times throughout the books when it seems Dumbledore may have an eye into the future, including in book one when the invisibillity cloak is gifted to Harry (and then later returned) just in time to save the day, when he is in Hagrid's hut in book 3 and stalls the execution of Buckbeak by a few minutes so that Hermione and Harry have time to free Buckbeak (even though they are coming from the future to do so), and in book 4 (or 5, Im not sure) when he hints at the existance of the room of requirement while looking straight at Harry. 2) Yes, he said he never studied divination. However, this does not mean that he doesn't know something about seeing into the future, or it isnt sort of second nature to him. It is my belief that maybe it is something that he could use if he wanted to, but most likely chooses not to use most of the time. Or it is something that he has learned to subtley ignore, even if he knows what's going to happen. Or, like the centaurs, he sees patterns but not specifics. 3) There is a lot of obvious parrallels between Dumbledore and Merlin of the Arthurian legends. Merlin's downfall is that he loves a woman, and trusts her, even though he knows that she will betray him. She ends up killing him in the end and he lets it happen, because it is his fate. Hmm.... this sounds familliar (and no, I am not hinting that Dumbledore and Snape were in love, so don't suggest it. That would just be silly. hee hee...) BUT, much of Dumbledore's character is like Merlin's. In the Arthurian legends, Merlin steps in to help when he can sort of ease fate along, but he never resists it. Anyhow, hopefully this will deepen this discussion. -------------------- "Rita Skeeter better shut her mouth before she gets in trouble..."
-Harry and the Potters- |
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Sep 29 2006, 11:02 PM
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#10
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 33 Joined: 1:03am January 29, 2005 |
QUOTE(Peskipiksi Pesternomi @ Sep 30 2006, 01:29 AM) [snapback]963111[/snapback] I should make myself more clear, since I dont think this is a question with a yes or no answer: 1) There are several times throughout the books when it seems Dumbledore may have an eye into the future, including in book one when the invisibillity cloak is gifted to Harry (and then later returned) just in time to save the day, when he is in Hagrid's hut in book 3 and stalls the execution of Buckbeak by a few minutes so that Hermione and Harry have time to free Buckbeak (even though they are coming from the future to do so), and in book 4 (or 5, Im not sure) when he hints at the existance of the room of requirement while looking straight at Harry. ... Anyhow, hopefully this will deepen this discussion. I too have always felt very interested in Dumbledore's knowledge of what goes on in Hogwarts. The scene with Buckbeaks execution was the one that always made me wonder the most. How did he know to stall the execution squad, and the amusement he had when they saw Buckbeak gone, as if he knew what was happening. But I never really thought of it as predicting the future. I don't think he has seers blood inside of him in the slightest though. He seems to against the idea in general. I always felt he might have some device inside his office to help him glimpse into the near future of Hogwarts, and Hogwarts alone. His ability of knowing the future only happens inside the grounds of Hogwarts. as Hermione says "he knows more or less everything that happens in Hogwarts" I can't find any place where his predictions extended beyond Hogwarts. Personally, I am convinced that it was the fragile silver instrument he used after Harry saw Arthur's attack. Remember that Harry destroyed the silver instrument at the end of book 5 with his rampage... which seems to be where Dumbledore's knowledge of the on goings of Hogwarts ends. Considering Dumbledore being killed, death eaters entering the school, and him not knowing how, he seemed to have lost his glimpse into the future towards the end. Great thread btw, and it's also one of my favorite questions I like to ask myself about the books. I sure hope we get an answer in book 7. |
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