Dumbledore's Pensieve tuition, If he knew so much already, why did he do so little? |
Apr 13 2008, 02:16 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Official Grandmother at the Lily and Stag Inn Posts: 2,852 Joined: 4:33pm February 27, 2007 Location: Having tea with Minerva McGonagall at Hogwarts ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
By using the Pensieve to tutor Harry, Dumbledore gives Harry the opportunity to observe events as they really happened. All personal bias has been removed. I think that Dumbledore showed them to Harry in the most meaningful way he could. He showed them in chronological order not in the order in which he received them but the order in which they occurred The one he held back was Slughorn's, and Harry had to be convinced that his obtaining it was of critical importance. It pulls them all together.
Nobody saw the significance of the locket. Those who handled it had no reason to do so. DD wasnot involved in the housecleaning, so he would not have had a reason to know about it. Add in the fact that of all the Black family possessions, this one mattered most to Kreacher. He hid it as fast as he could get it. Dumbledore never knew that he and Harry had retrieved a fake horcrux, and he may not have immediately known RAB was Regulus anyway. That Knowledge was Kreacher's alone. Here is what I think DD knew for certain. He knew that the only available explanation for the baby to be alive was for him to be a horcrux. There was no additional proof. In CoS, Everybody learns that Harry is a parselmouth.The diary functions like a horcrux, and Harry can describe his experience in the Chamber with TRJ and the Basilisk. He has the wrecked diary. DD has now seen a horcrux and has more reason to suspect Harry is one too, snake talk, scar pain, dreams. Dumbledore begins searching for information that will help him understand TRJ better, to discover his trophies and his hiding places. We have the clarity of hindsight to help us. Dumbledore must have run down many false leads before he found the meaningful memories.For instance, he would have had to do his own genealogical research to discover that Tom had been descended from a Gaunt. He found the empty hovel with the ring hidden there and thoughtlessly put it on his own hand. Nobody ever said that the man was infallible. He had found "his" first horcrux, which he took with him to Hogwarts and destroyed with the sword of Gryffindor. He then sent for Snape to help him and found out that he had a year or less to live. After extracting a promise to kill him at the optimum moment, DD then set about planning Harry's private lessons. Harry needed to assimilate each one, and DD is putting as much of his own time into horcrux hunting and memory gathering as he can.After the events of OotP, there is no doubt whatsoever that Harry is a horcrux that LV does not know about. DD must make two things plain to Harry. All horcruxes must be found and destroyed before he can go after Voldemort himself, and that means using all that is known about TRJ-LV to figure out what and where they are. DD does believe that LV has sealed his own fate by using Harry's blood to reconstruct his own body. He hints at it but does not reveal it until Kings Cross in DH. -------------------- ![]() Thank you, Gilleyweed!!! |
Apr 21 2008, 07:33 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium![]() Posts: 7,133 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Warning: impossibly long post
I'm sure that you are right to think that Dumbledore would have been a member of the Wizengamot, or had at least had been following famous trials. Of course that was before the 1945 defeat of Grindelwald, so Dumbledore might not have been elected yet to the Wizengamot. It still doesn't mean he could not have noted who gave what testimony. Morfin and Marvolo were tried for practising magic on a muggle and for assaulting Bob Ogden in the performance of his duty. And I am also sure that Dumbledore was aware that Morfin was rearrested and given a life sentence at Azkaban because of the Riddle killings. I contrived my theory of the Wizengamot simply because I didn't know where else Dumbledore could have gotten his information; or how he knew who to contact; in this case Bob Ogden. Your theory about Dumbledore following interesting court cases is certainly a good possibility. We also know from Dumbledore that he follows the Muggle newspapers as well, re: Frank Bryce. He very well might have read the Riddle family orbituaries. And he might have decided to do some investigating of the Muggles who lived in Little Hangleton. QUOTE I think it was the coincidence of Morfin being charged for the Riddle killings, having a sixth year student at school called Tom Marvolo Riddle, who coincidentally had taken to openly wearing a curious ring, and extracting the memory from Morfin of what happened that night. Don't forget that until the end of his days Morfin bemoaned the loss of the Peverell Ring. And that also Dumbledore, once he recovered that memory, did try to get Morfin released. Perhaps in trying to get to the bottom of Morfin's memories, Dumbledore found it useful to contact Bob Ogden as well as Caractacus Burke and Hokey the House-Elf, also incarcerated in Azkaban. But don't forget also that Dumbledore had been looking for the Resurrection stone for a long time, and maybe suspected the Gaunts could have had it. Maybe he even saw Marvolo wearing the ring at his trial. You bring up good points; I agree that Dumbledore must have suspected the Gaunts might possess Peverell's ring and as you suggest, Dumbledore very well may have seen Marvolo himself wearing the ring. If Tom could find out who he was; or to what parentage he belonged, all he had to do was look up Wizarding Family records; since Tom knows that his grandfather's name was Marvolo. QUOTE Especially as Dumbledore clearly remembered talking to Mrs Cole and her recollections of Tom's behaviour at the orphanage. And Dumbledore also could remember how he set alight Tom's cupboard, and the revelation of the stolen thimble, mouth organ, yoyo etc. The no doubt sensational murder of Hepzibah Smith, allegedly by her House Elf, Hokey, also may have revived his hunt for more memories of Tom Riddle. Hokey's memory would have led Dumbledore back to interviewing Caractacus Burke, who could confirm Hepzibah's reference to the ragged, heavily pregnant girl who sold the locket. I also agree that Dumbledore at some point spoke with Burke; specifically about certain treasures that might have belonged to the four founders; what came of those treasures; and very possibly about a certain employee named Tom. I can very well see Dumbledore using Legilimency on Burke to extract said information. And it is probably safe to say that Burke himself gave Dumbledore information about Hepzibah; and from there Dumbledore could have found out by other means about Hokey; say again from Hokey's own evidence to the Ministry and Wizengamot. Two family heirlooms missing, would have been something Dumbledore was privy to. And as you yourself point out, Hepzibah's murder would be quite a sensational story for Dumbledore not to follow. QUOTE And that in itself is strange. Ever since COS Dumbledore knew about the Diarycrux. And LV's GOF rebirthing provided other clues. Dumbledore clearly knew about the Peverell Ring, or at least the Resurrection Stone, and I agree he may well have seen Tom Riddle wearing the Peverell Ring at school. And we know that Slughorn definitely did see Riddle wearing it at a Slug club meeting. Why else would Dumbledore flash it around like an engagement ring when he and Harry visited Slughorn to persuade him to become Potions master? I agree. Not only that, Dumbledore told Harry that he suspected Voldemort in the creation of a Horcrux for quite some time; however; we are never told how long this period of suspicion was. As a reader, I always assumed that Dumbledore began to suspect that Tom was doing whatever he could to be immortal as far back as Tom's interview for the DADA position. I don't believe Dumbledore suspected Tom as far as Horcruxes go before this time; the memories he extracted were more for what information Dumbledore could gleam about Tom's past given the suspicious events at school. During Voldemort's interview, we are told of his startling physical transformation; Dumbledore might have started to put two and two together then. As you point out, it isn't until COS that Dumbledore found out about the diary; and it isn't until COS that Dumbledore started to believe that Voldemort very possibly had made not one but multiple Horcruxes. QUOTE That is my view, that it was reading Kreacher's mind, which started Dumbledore off on a search at the Gaunt domicile. If looking for Horcruxes that would be a logical place to start, wouldn't it? Dumbledore would need to check that the Locketcrux was not there, but he found the Ring instead. Then, perhaps, Dumbledore was reminded of the cave. Dumbledore very well might have known even before reading Kreacher's mind where the Gaunt domicile was re: Bob Ogden's memories. So, just because he didn't find the ring until right before he went to fetch Harry from 4PD; doesn't necessarily mean Dumbledore didn't know where the Gaunts lived. Having said this; I go back to the original question: if Dumbledore knew this piece of information for so long, what kept him from going after the ring sooner; what kept him from visiting the Gaunt home in the first place? As a reader, I was under the impression that Dumbledore began the actual Horcrux hunt right around the end of OOTP. First of all, time wise, I don't think it was really possible for Dumbledore to have gone to look for the Horcruxes sooner; or to even go the to the Gaunt house. Dumbledore's primary concern was Harry; Harry is protected while he is at Hogwarts; and to me at least, it was imperative that Dumbledore be present at Hogwarts as well, at least during Harry's school year. Even before Harry became a student at Hogwarts, Dumbledore's activities were primarily concerned with the Order; and fighting Voldemort during the first war. I really can't see Dumbledore actually finding the time to go and look for anything. In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that he began delving into Tom's past after he left Hogwarts; so the circumstantial evidence so to speak: Myrtle's death, the Riddle deaths, Tom wearing the ring at school; other "nasty" incidents at Hogwarts that couldn't be traced to Tom or his followers; inspire Dumbledore to research Tom's past: QUOTE What I know, I found out after he had left Hogwarts, after much painstaking effort, after tracing those few who could be tricked into speaking, after searching old records and questioning Muggle and wizard witnesses alike. So the next question that begs to be answered is: when did Dumbledore procure Slughorn's first "foggy" and tainted memory of his discussion with Tom and Horcruxes? Was it after Slughorn joined Hogwarts as teacher? The latter explanation seems more plausible to me because here Dumbledore kills two birds with one stone: he fills the now vacant Potions position; Slughorn would be under his nose; and this would explain why, as you say Dumbledore flaunted Marvolo's ring like an "engagement ring" in front of Slughorn; since Slughorn would definitely recognize the ring. However, how did Dumbledore know that it was Slughorn he needed for the vital Horcrux information? Dumbledore might not have known that Slughorn contained a memory of vital information pertaining to Horcruxes, but Dumbledore knew that of all the teachers, Tom was on best terms with Slughorn; Slughorn who could have influenced Tom to teach at Hogwarts; Slughorn himself was influential with the students; Tom might have wanted to have this same influence as well; use Hogwarts as a "recruiting ground". And just an aside. Another little theory of mine is that Slughorn, upon seeing Tom's ring on Dumbledore's hand sent some warning flags. Slughorn may very well have realized right then and there that Tom had not only made one Horcrux, but multiple. This would explain even more Slughorn's hesitation in giving either Dumbledore or Harry the memory and it would explain his guilt and embarrassment as well. So, it seems that Dumbledore extracted Morfin's memory first because of the Riddle murders; then sometime later, he traced Hokey. We are told it was a 10 year span of time between Hokey's memory and that of Dumbledore's interview with Voldemort. This still leaves Bob Ogden's memory not fitting somewhere neatly in this timeline; Dumbledore shows this memory to Harry first; however, chronologically this memory was probably obtained before Dumbledore was able to procure Morfin's memory. I would say that Dumbledore had these memories (Bob's, Morfin's and Hokey's) for quite some time; possibly before Harry stepped foot into Hogwarts. Or another possibility is that Bob's memories were taken before Harry started school and Morfin and Hokey's memories were procured after Harry's second year in school? (The more I think about it, the more I believe it's the latter scenario). So what was Dumbledore doing between COS and HBP? One of my theories is that Dumbledore tried to find the locket first. Since it was so well hidden; maybe it took Dumbledore quite a bit of time to try and find its location. He was unsuccessful; then he tried to find others. Did he possibly travel to Albania and not tell anyone? Did it simply take Dumbledore a long time to sift through years and years of memories in the pensieve before something clicked? That could be what happened; and really what probably sparked Dumbledore's memory when he was interviewing Kreature; he sees a cave; thinks back to the interview with Mrs. Cole; he very possibly might even have this memory stored as well. Then Dumbledore goes back to Bob's memories after which he visit's the Gaunt house. I apologize for the long essay type post; I just had too much to say -------------------- ![]() |
Apr 21 2008, 11:13 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Madame Pince's House Elf![]() Posts: 4,709 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 5, awaiting Deathly Hallow's release. |
I contrived my theory of the Wizengamot simply because I didn't know where else Dumbledore could have gotten his information; or how he knew who to contact; in this case Bob Ogden. Your theory about Dumbledore following interesting court cases is certainly a good possibility. We also know from Dumbledore that he follows the Muggle newspapers as well, re: Frank Bryce. He very well might have read the Riddle family orbituaries.....I agree that Dumbledore must have suspected the Gaunts might possess Peverell's ring and as you suggest, Dumbledore very well may have seen Marvolo himself wearing the ring. If Tom could find out who he was; or to what parentage he belonged, all he had to do was look up Wizarding Family records; since Tom knows that his grandfather's name was Marvolo..... The newspapers would have to be a good bet. But I still think Dumbledore might also have wanted to take a closer look at that ring because of his search for the Resurrection stone, rather than because of his suspicions about Tom Riddle's involvement with the Riddle murders. Maybe Bob Ogden might have been one of the few people who was openly prepared to tell Dumbledore about his memories. For we know that Dumbledore had supporters and friends among the clan of Ogden. Tiberius Ogden resigned in protest from the Wizengamot when Dumbledore was expelled from it. Also, Dumbledore's brother would have certainly had bottles of Ogden's firewhiskey at the Hogs Head. We know that even before that interview or Tom Riddle left school, Dumbledore had begun to suspect something of Tom Riddle because he banned the Horcrux book from the library. Also, from his own memory DD knew that Mrs Cole had obeyed Merope's wishes in how her newborn son was to be named, and that Tom Marvolo Riddle knew DD knew. One reason why he feared DD so much. QUOTE I also agree that Dumbledore at some point spoke with Burke... it is probably safe to say that Burke himself gave Dumbledore information about Hepzibah; and from there Dumbledore could have found out by other means about Hokey; say again from Hokey's own evidence to the Ministry and Wizengamot. Two family heirlooms missing, would have been something Dumbledore was privy to. And as you yourself point out, Hepzibah's murder would be quite a sensational story for Dumbledore not to follow. Again the newspapers would be a good bet, as well as any information that Burke could supply. In those pre-Barty Crouch days Morfin would probably have got a trial, even though as a reoffender who believed himself to be guilty it might have been a mere formality. But I very much doubt that poor Hokey would have been so honoured. It depends if Dumbledore had enough 'pull' to retrieve any evidence she might give to the Department of control over Magical Creatures. On the other hand, since Cornelius Fudge mentioned that Harry could have got the names of the DE's at LV's rebirthing from old trial records, I can only assume that Hogwarts library was the main repository for old Ministry records. In that case, Dumbledore may not have needed to go far to do research. And you are right about tracing Tom Riddle's parentage through old Wizarding Family records. The library might even have its own copy of Nature's Nobility, which Hermione used to such effect during DH. QUOTE Not only that, Dumbledore told Harry that he suspected Voldemort in the creation of a Horcrux for quite some time; however; we are never told how long this period of suspicion was. As a reader, I always assumed that Dumbledore began to suspect that Tom was doing whatever he could to be immortal as far back as Tom's interview for the DADA position. I don't believe Dumbledore suspected Tom as far as Horcruxes go before this time; the memories he extracted were more for what information Dumbledore could gleam about Tom's past given the suspicious events at school. During Voldemort's interview, we are told of his startling physical transformation; Dumbledore might have started to put two and two together then. As you point out, it isn't until COS that Dumbledore found out about the diary; and it isn't until COS that Dumbledore started to believe that Voldemort very possibly had made not one but multiple Horcruxes. I think that Dumbledore did suspect that Tom Riddle made at least one Horcrux whilst at school, probably from Moaning Myrtle's death, or was at least considering it. DD probably hoped that it stopped there, once the book was removed from the library, only to be dismayed by subsequent murders. He probably didn't know what sort of object this Horcrux might be, since a diary is a fairly ordinary object, like the mouth organ we saw at the orphanage. We do know that by the DADA interview DD knew that Tom Riddle was after Founders' objects because of Hepzibah's death, and that he must have been up to something as horrendous as making other Horcruxes because of the noticeable change in LV's appearance. You could almost work out the sequence of Horcrux-making from these changes alone. DD might even have suspected Tom to be after Gryffindor's sword at the DADA interview. So that makes at least two items that DD suspected were Horcruxes . And that is even before DD knew that Harry, himself, probably was a Horcrux. Snape suggested to Bellatrix that he was not the only one who was curious to see if Harry might have grown to be another Dark Lord and it is easy now to see that Dumbledore long before that time also suspected that Harry might be a Horcrux. Maybe as early as his delivery to Privet Drive as a baby. DD was, as Harry told the Diarycrux, up to Tom Riddle and his dodges. He had already warned Snape to watch out for Quirrell, who had returned from a journey to Europe, and, during COS, had also cottoned on to who might be opening the Chamber of Secrets but wasn't sure how it could be accomplished. As he told Harry at the end of COS DD knew from his spies that LV had once again retreated to Albania. QUOTE Dumbledore very well might have known even before reading Kreacher's mind where the Gaunt domicile was re: Bob Ogden's memories. So, just because he didn't find the ring until right before he went to fetch Harry from 4PD; doesn't necessarily mean Dumbledore didn't know where the Gaunts lived. Having said this; I go back to the original question: if Dumbledore knew this piece of information for so long, what kept him from going after the ring sooner; what kept him from visiting the Gaunt home in the first place? As a reader, I was under the impression that Dumbledore began the actual Horcrux hunt right around the end of OOTP. First of all, time wise, I don't think it was really possible for Dumbledore to have gone to look for the Horcruxes sooner; or to even go the to the Gaunt house. Dumbledore's primary concern was Harry; Harry is protected while he is at Hogwarts; and to me at least, it was imperative that Dumbledore be present at Hogwarts as well, at least during Harry's school year. Even before Harry became a student at Hogwarts, Dumbledore's activities were primarily concerned with the Order; and fighting Voldemort during the first war. I really can't see Dumbledore actually finding the time to go and look for anything. I'm sure that DD knew for years where the Gaunts and Riddles lived. I agree it would have been dangerous for Dumbledore to have hung around Little Hangleton for any length of time once he read the newspaper report of Frank Bryce's death, and then the Mugglebaiting goings on at the QWC, plus the Dark Mark being sent up and Bertha Jorkins' disappearance in Albania. For LV, himself, was surely responsible for Frank Bryce's murder even if DD had not also heard Sirius' second-hand account of Harry's dream. By the end of the year, when he was reforming the Order plus under attack from the Ministry Dumbledore would not have had much time to do anything more than what he did. Maybe the situation changed at the end of OotP when several DE's were rounded up, including Lucius Malfoy. There was a window of opportunity after COS, but maybe the escape of Sirius Black stopped DD from doing any exploring, and Frank Bryce was killed soon afterwards. Perhaps that is why DD couldn't do much before the end of OotP. It doesn't explain what DD could and didn't do once he saw that curse-scar on Harry's forehead, let alone before Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. QUOTE In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that he began delving into Tom's past after he left Hogwarts; so the circumstantial evidence so to speak: Myrtle's death, the Riddle deaths, Tom wearing the ring at school; other "nasty" incidents at Hogwarts that couldn't be traced to Tom or his followers; inspire Dumbledore to research Tom's past: QUOTE What I know, I found out after he had left Hogwarts, after much painstaking effort, after tracing those few who could be tricked into speaking, after searching old records and questioning Muggle and wizard witnesses alike. I'm sure that is why DD suspected Tom Riddle was into Horcrux-making and to start making connections. DD certainly had some idea that Tom Riddle wasn't dead, not only because Harry survived the AK, but also by Quirrell's return and the attempts to steal the Philosopher's Stone. QUOTE However, how did Dumbledore know that it was Slughorn he needed for the vital Horcrux information? Dumbledore might not have known that Slughorn contained a memory of vital information pertaining to Horcruxes, but Dumbledore knew that of all the teachers, Tom was on best terms with Slughorn; Slughorn who could have influenced Tom to teach at Hogwarts; Slughorn himself was influential with the students; Tom might have wanted to have this same influence as well; use Hogwarts as a "recruiting ground". I wonder if DD got the tainted memory before the beginning of OotP. Perhaps he went around to Slughorn to see if he would join the Order of the Phoenix. Sluggie, unlike some, would have believed him and may have furnished the tainted memory as a good reason why. I notice that whilst he doctored the memory, it was his own answer and not Tom Riddle's question about Horcruxes. Perhaps at the time Dumbledore noticed the ring on Tom Riddle's finger then and that is what prompted the Gaunt House expedion. That might explain why Slughorn was in hiding from the DE's for over a year, and most specifically from Tom Riddle. It was also why Slughorn was hiding from Dumbledore, himself. It wasn't because of the invitation to become potions master. The DADA teacher invitation might have frightened Slughorn more because of the curse. How did Dumbledore know where Slughorn was? And why did Slughorn put on the reception he did for Dumbledore, with only a few minutes notice? I notice that Sluggy was distinctly jittery at the idea of becoming a member of the Order of the Phoenix. I think you are right, though. The memory, if nothing else, would have suggested that Slughorn knew quite a bit more than he was letting on about Tom Riddle and horcrux. And I think Dumbledore flashing around that ring certainly put the wind up Slughorn. Perhaps both had guessed it was a horcrux. And because he was fool enough to show the ring off might have persuaded Tom Riddle to hide the ring back at the Gaunt house as well as hide the rest. This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Apr 22 2008, 12:56 AM -------------------- Check out Book Number 5 POA edition. |
Apr 22 2008, 09:11 AM
Post
#14
|
|
Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium![]() Posts: 7,133 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The newspapers would have to be a good bet. But I still think Dumbledore might also have wanted to take a closer look at that ring because of his search for the Resurrection stone, rather than because of his suspicions about Tom Riddle's involvement with the Riddle murders. Maybe Bob Ogden might have been one of the few people who was openly prepared to tell Dumbledore about his memories. For we know that Dumbledore had supporters and friends among the clan of Ogden. Tiberius Ogden resigned in protest from the Wizengamot when Dumbledore was expelled from it. Also, Dumbledore's brother would have certainly had bottles of Ogden's firewhiskey at the Hogs Head. We know that even before that interview or Tom Riddle left school, Dumbledore had begun to suspect something of Tom Riddle because he banned the Horcrux book from the library. Also, from his own memory DD knew that Mrs Cole had obeyed Merope's wishes in how her newborn son was to be named, and that Tom Marvolo Riddle knew DD knew. One reason why he feared DD so much. I apologize for not responding to this before as you eloquently brought up the Resurrection stone in a previous post. I very much agree that Dumbledore might have wanted to take a look at Marvolo's ring in it's capacity as a Hallow; maybe even more than it's capacity as a Horcrux. Which explains why Dumbledore so blindly put in on in the first place. Again the newspapers would be a good bet, as well as any information that Burke could supply. In those pre-Barty Crouch days Morfin would probably have got a trial, even though as a reoffender who believed himself to be guilty it might have been a mere formality. But I very much doubt that poor Hokey would have been so honoured. It depends if Dumbledore had enough 'pull' to retrieve any evidence she might give to the Department of control over Magical Creatures. You bring up a good point about Hokey possibly not being mentioned in the media; as a house elf she might not even have been considered worthy of mention in the media. Here, Dumbledore might have paid a visit to Hokey in Azkaban. On the other hand, since Cornelius Fudge mentioned that Harry could have got the names of the DE's at LV's rebirthing from old trial records, I can only assume that Hogwarts library was the main repository for old Ministry records. In that case, Dumbledore may not have needed to go far to do research. And you are right about tracing Tom Riddle's parentage through old Wizarding Family records. The library might even have its own copy of Nature's Nobility, which Hermione used to such effect during DH. Those are good points. The Hogwarts library seems to be a treasure trove of information. You just have to know where to look I think that Dumbledore did suspect that Tom Riddle made at least one Horcrux whilst at school, probably from Moaning Myrtle's death, or was at least considering it. DD probably hoped that it stopped there, once the book was removed from the library, only to be dismayed by subsequent murders. He probably didn't know what sort of object this Horcrux might be, since a diary is a fairly ordinary object, like the mouth organ we saw at the orphanage. We do know that by the DADA interview DD knew that Tom Riddle was after Founders' objects because of Hepzibah's death, and that he must have been up to something as horrendous as making other Horcruxes because of the noticeable change in LV's appearance. You could almost work out the sequence of Horcrux-making from these changes alone. DD might even have suspected Tom to be after Gryffindor's sword at the DADA interview. So that makes at least two items that DD suspected were Horcruxes . And that is even before DD knew that Harry, himself, probably was a Horcrux. I absolutely agree with the part I bolded above. Interesting that Dumbledore didn't suspect anyone else responsible for Myrtle's death. However, and this is pure conjecture on my part, as we know Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with his life. So, even at this early stage, Dumbledore might have gleamed that Hagrid couldn't have perpetrated the crime. So again, Dumbledore sees a young Tom responsible for the death of a student (which goes along with an 11 year old Tom controlling and torturing the children at the orphanage), however, young Tom needs a trophy… and the diary was a most mundane object; something Dumbledore might not have even considered. Sure, during Tom's interview he very well might have wanted Gryffindor's sword and most likely the diadem too. Tom surely wanted to search Hogrwarts for possibly even more treasures. So now Dumbledore is pretty sure that a Horcrux and maybe more were made, as evidenced by Tom's appearance and demeanor in this very telling interview. What kept Dumbledore from searching and finding founders' relics then? Was it Gellert (I have forgotten if Gellert was alive during this time period) and his minions? Was it the subsequent first war and the organizing of the Order that kept Dumbledore occupied? His busy teaching schedule, his subsequent headmaster duties? He had already warned Snape to watch out for Quirrell, who had returned from a journey to Europe, and, during COS, had also cottoned on to who might be opening the Chamber of Secrets but wasn't sure how it could be accomplished. As he told Harry at the end of COS DD knew from his spies that LV had once again retreated to Albania. I've always found this fact about Quirrell interesting; and I could never really adequately explain why Dumbledore suspected Quirrell in the first place and had Snape keep an eye on him. Of course, Quirrell could have started acting "funny" after his travels. Dumbledore very possibly picked up on some form of magical concealment/magical possession if you will; a concealment very akin to Harry and his containing a bit of Voldemort's soul. Dumbledore almost seems to have what I like to call magical extrasensory perception; a gift only the rare brilliant wizard possesses There was a window of opportunity after COS, but maybe the escape of Sirius Black stopped DD from doing any exploring, and Frank Bryce was killed soon afterwards. Perhaps that is why DD couldn't do much before the end of OotP. It doesn't explain what DD could and didn't do once he saw that curse-scar on Harry's forehead, let alone before Harry's arrival at Hogwarts. You are very right. I have proposed several theories above as to why Dumbledore didn't do more from the time of the Riddle deaths as well as the Riddle deaths as well; and from the time Tom went and interviewed for the DADA job. If Dumbedore suspected that Tom would go after relics belonging to the four founders, he had evidence that pointed to the cup, the locket and the ring. Gryffindor's sword was at hand and hidden and after Tom was turned down. Could it be that Dumbledore was taking a more of a wait and see approach? Dumbledore's actions very much parallel Voldemort in that they both collect things. Dumbledore collects and stores memories; secrets if you will; and we know Dumbledore kept secrets well hidden. Voldemort took trophies from his victims; his most prized possessions were very well hidden as well. Or maybe Dumbledore was just being very cautious; what if Voldemort got wind what Dumbledore was doing? Dumbledore's plan might have been defeat Voldemort; or weaken him and his supporters first. I'm sure that is why DD suspected Tom Riddle was into Horcrux-making and to start making connections. DD certainly had some idea that Tom Riddle wasn't dead, not only because Harry survived the AK, but also by Quirrell's return and the attempts to steal the Philosopher's Stone. Yes, it seems that Myrtle's death is what caused Tom to come under Dumbledore's radar and the reason Dumbledore began his investigations. -------------------- ![]() |
Jul 12 2009, 10:43 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Ollivander's Apprentice Posts: 2,176 Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007 Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I think you are right, though. The memory, if nothing else, would have suggested that Slughorn knew quite a bit more than he was letting on about Tom Riddle and horcrux. And I think Dumbledore flashing around that ring certainly put the wind up Slughorn. Perhaps both had guessed it was a horcrux. And because he was fool enough to show the ring off might have persuaded Tom Riddle to hide the ring back at the Gaunt house as well as hide the rest. Alright....there's nothing like being 3 months late to the party The second odd thing about the midnight visit of Albus to Horace was not only Dumbledore's insistence that Harry accompany him, but that Albus was so terribly particular as to where Harry sat: in the light where Horace could see Harry's face. Now, after reading the above, I realize that Dumbledore was playing "good cop, bad cop", so to speak. He was using competing visual clues with Slughorn to no-verbally demonstrate the choices before him. On the one hand, there was a tangible reminder (the ring) of Horace's greatest mistake and all the accompanying fear and guilt which came with that. On the other, there were Lily's eyes, looking at him from Harry's face, offering Horace a tender recollection of the cost of doing nothing. With one hand Dumbledore offered horror, and the with other, redemption. Pretty cool, when you think about it. And while there was no way that Albus could have foretold how, exactly, Harry would get Horace's untampered memory, this scene sets the stage for the dramatic conclusion of "After the Funeral". Harry played upon what Albus had already set in motion when he uses the felix potion to get that memory from Horace after Aragog's funeral. Harry pits Voldemort's evil against a (finally!) tangible path forward to redress an old wrong. And Horace gives up the memory. As later happens in Deathly Hallows, Harry finishes what Albus began. This post has been edited by fidelia: Jul 12 2009, 10:59 PM -------------------- ![]() |
Jul 16 2009, 12:30 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper![]() Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007 |
- Why was Dumbledore using this method of communication to teach Harry?
The fastest and easiest way for Harry to see. ~ What was Dumbledore really looking for when he sustained the injury to his right hand? What else could he have expected to find in the ruins of the Gaunt hovel? He was probably researching the Gaunt family. ~ Some of those memories might have been in Dumbledore's charge for some time. They include the memories of Hokey the House Elf, Morfin who died in Azkaban, and Bob Ogden's memory of visiting the Gaunt House. Why, if Dumbledore knew about the Ringcrux did he not go to retrieve that item earlier? Well, we don't know how old these memories are. I am of the opinion DD may have suspected about horcruxes in CoS but did not have more reason to work until Voldemort's little "I went further towards immortality than anyone else" speech in GoF and probably moreso after Harry and V's connection is revealed in OOTP. ~ Dumbledore told Harry he knew enough Legilimency to know when he was being lied to, having used Legilimency on Kreacher. Could he have then found clues to where there might be another Horcrux? Kreacher would not know this was a Horcrux. ~ Why did Dumbledore go to the cave, risking his and Harry's lives? To obtain, and destroy if possible, the Horcrux. Harry has to come along if DD is too weakened by the Horcrux's defense mechanism. ~ Dumbledore could have learned the whereabouts of more than one Horcrux. He could have found out about the Chamber of Secrets from Moaning Myrtle, whether the fifth Horcrux was a Gryffindor or Ravenclaw object, where the Diademcrux was hidden in Hogwarts and he could have taken an interest in Mrs Weasley's 12 Grimmauld Place housecleaning. Why did Dumbledore fail to find out about these items hidden under his nose? Myrtle didn't know who opened the Chamber or what the Diary is. Since he can't Legiliment LV, he can not know whether the 5th horcrux is a Gryffindor or a Ravenclaw item.. Why would DD care about Grimmauld Place housecleaning ? ~ Do you think there is any truth in Amycus Carrow's assertion on top of the Lightning Struck Tower that 'Dumby... always the same, talking and doing nothing, nothing?' Definitely not. DD is about to make sure the good guys win. ~ Why did Dumbledore keep asking for Severus Snape to help him after his return from the Poisonous Green Potion Cave? To heal whatever problems that nasty potion was causing. ~ And now that DH has also been published, why did Dumbledore beg 'please' of Severus Snape? I'd bet there was some Legilimency going on too. "Please" think of Lily and your promise. "Please" keep Harry safe. "Please" save Hogwarts students etc. This post has been edited by broomwitch: Jul 16 2009, 12:31 PM |
Jul 16 2009, 06:15 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup![]() Posts: 39 Joined: 7:41pm July 15, 2009 |
Here are some questions to ponder about Dumbledore?
~ Why was Dumbledore using this method of communication to teach Harry? Because seeing Tom Riddle as a child/ teenager was the whole point which was supplemented by what Dumbledore said. I think it once again was to emphasise how different Harry and Voldemort, depsite all their similarities, were. Also to show Harry the importance of having friends you can trust, because it is always easier to keep people loyal if you allow them to help you and trust them than forcing them to do what you want by threatening to kill their friends and family. ~ What was Dumbledore really looking for when he sustained the injury to his right hand? What else could he have expected to find in the ruins of the Gaunt hovel? The way I understood it is that he injured his hand while trying to detroy the ring not while he was in the house. I'm sure he had a good look around for other clues about Voldemort's family and other Horcruxes - even though the latter is unlikely. ~ Some of those memories might have been in Dumbledore's charge for some time. They include the memories of Hokey the House Elf, Morfin who died in Azkaban, and Bob Ogden's memory of visiting the Gaunt House. Why, if Dumbledore knew about the Ringcrux did he not go to retrieve that item earlier? Maybe because he didn't suspect Voldemort to have used that place to hide something this important. Also just because he had those memories doesn't mean he'd seen them before he showed them to Harry. ~ Dumbledore told Harry he knew enough Legilimency to know when he was being lied to, having used Legilimency on Kreacher. Could he have then found clues to where there might be another Horcrux? No, because nobody else, apart from Regulus and Kreacher, knew Voldemort had made them and he was hardly going to ask Voldemort himself, was he? ~ Why did Dumbledore go to the cave, risking his and Harry's lives? Because he thought the Horcrux was still there and maybe to show Harry what to expect when he went searching for the other Horcruxes - how dangerous it might be. ~ Dumbledore could have learned the whereabouts of more than one Horcrux. He could have found out about the Chamber of Secrets from Moaning Myrtle, whether the fifth Horcrux was a Gryffindor or Ravenclaw object, where the Diademcrux was hidden in Hogwarts and he could have taken an interest in Mrs Weasley's 12 Grimmauld Place housecleaning. Why did Dumbledore fail to find out about these items hidden under his nose? Moaning Myrtle didn't know about the Chamber itself only what had killed her - and in any case it wouldn't have been much use because he didn't know Parsel. Of course he could have used Harry, because someone would have told him about the incident at Duelling class, but he probably thought that the boys would try and find it anyway when Hermione was petrified, or at least when Ginny was abducted. Since Voldemort seems to have gone for objects that belonged to the founders, rather than something merely associated with the house, I think he was fairly sure that it was not Gryffindor's sword, because it was in his office all the time. As, unlike Harry (Draco) and Voldemort, Dumbledore obviously never needed to hide anything in the Room of Requirement when he was at school, he wouldn't have known it was there - I think Dumbledore once said that he'd used the room as a toilet. Even Harry only remembered seeing the Diadem when he'd seen it on the statue in the Ravenclaw common room and had found out the story from the ghost. But he surely could have found the locket during the cleaning of Grimmuald Place, or at least looked through what they'd found, but he probably had other things on his mind. He probably also guessed most of the locations but knew he didn't have a chance to get anything out of Gringott's. ~ Do you think there is any truth in Amycus Carrow's assertion on top of the Lightning Struck Tower that 'Dumby... always the same, talking and doing nothing, nothing?' I think Dumbledore kept Draco talking because he knew that Draco wasn't going to kill him, no matter what he said. And he probably told Snape to make the Unbreakable Vow with Draco's mother to protect Draco from the harm that killing can do to someone this young. Alone the thought of having your soul ripped to pieces is bad enough to even imagine it. ~ Why did Dumbledore keep asking for Severus Snape to help him after his return from the Poisonous Green Potion Cave? Maybe he thought Snape could still do something for him, like giving him an antidote. But knowing the plan that seemed unlikely. If I'd have been Harry though, even if I didn't know what to expect, I'd have tried to sneak a bezoar out of potions - he probably guessed that it would come to something like that in the end. ~ And now that DH has also been published, why did Dumbledore beg 'please' of Severus Snape? Obviously, with all the Death Eaters up that tower it would have been a bit suspicious if Snape had just come up and killed his 'boss' instead of waiting until he died anyway - and because he knew if he didn't remind Snape he mightn't do it. Unlike us, the Death Eaters didn't know that it was all planned that way. Probably also because he knew Snape might die if he didn't fulfill his vow to Draco's mother and knew he needed him there the next year. And he wanted to make sure that neither Snape nor Voldemort could use his wand once he had died - which as we know is a legendary unbeatable wand. This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Jul 17 2009, 03:46 AM |




Apr 13 2008, 02:16 PM











Check out 





