Education, K-12, vo-tech, undergrad, postgrad: What does right look like? |
 Dec 29 2008, 09:49 AM
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Shopping the sales rack at Madam Malkins  Posts: 2,535 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse   |
I've taken the liberty of spinning this off from the Obama appointment thread. Doris' question got me thinking a different way from discussing the new Administration players.
QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Dec 28 2008, 09:41 PM)  Education Secretary: I can't help but feel this person has quite a whole to dig us out of. I'm hoping for someone who is anti-standardized tests and has a more realistic view of education. How do you guys feel about his appointment of Chicago's Arne Duncan? A none reformer, he's apparently given teacher's the leeway to try new things and pull them away from merely teaching a testing format. Here is what the Wall-Street Journal has to say about him QUOTE The CEO of the Chicago public schools and the ultimate diplomat, Mr. Duncan rises to the rim at a moment when teachers unions are, for the first time, facing opposition within the Democratic Party from young idealists who favor education reform. They want to recapture what should always have been a natural issue for Democrats: helping underprivileged kids get out of failing public schools. Apparently the guy is quite the basketball player too.  What do you guys think of this appointment? DorisTLC, I know you're a teacher. How do we set our children up for success in this world. What should "right look like" at K-12? How do we avoid social promotion and undereducated young people leaving high school? I'm not asking those from my usual Red perspective; our Nation needs well-educated young people entering the workforce, whether it happens after HS, vo-tech, undergrad, or grad school. I agree standardized testing isn't the answer, but as someone who pays taxes (lots of taxes) for education, and as someone with a child in the system, I want to know the product coming out is competent and confident. Your thoughts on how we assure the graduate has a solid skillset? What about the arts and physical education. I graduated HS in 1974, at that point PE was still a requirment throughout HS. Certainly I see the benefits (now all the more so) of a quality fine arts education, the discipline involved in learning theater, band or orchestra is simply amazing ot me. -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter |
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Dec 29 2008, 01:37 PM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,963 Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005 Location: at Home or somewhere in between |
I'll quote something from the other thread to get me started in a response, JMA:
 QUOTE(davidenglish @ Dec 29 2008, 12:29 AM) I just finished reading Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers ~a great book by a Canadian! The timing of it couldn't come at a better time as Gladwell's thesis celebrates hard work and serious studying, but mocks standardized testing and the elitism of streaming. At last, a chance to turn back the neo-conservative stereotypes of intelligence and success. bold mineNever underestimate the power of books. And these guys read books. Lots of books. And they're not ashamed to discuss them. Even when it's Harry Potter. One of the big problems I have with the American Educational System today is that "education" is seen as a product to go through a "Quality Assurance" process, to maximize an investment return that can be measured in terms of dollars and cents. To me, the real value of education is in developing a person's ability to think critically and soundly, which often results in a "bucking" of the System and a reform to the Status Quo. A "real" education is not something that "certifies" proficiency in a particular skill, such as in being able to construct and read a balance sheet, but in contributing to the evolution of things which move us forward as a Society. In order for this to work, opportunities must be present. It does no good when a child is brought up in a country where he or she is told from practically birth that he/she can be "anything" they set their minds to, yet when it comes time deliver those opportunities after years of hard work, be told that it is no longer in the "budget". Scholarships are available, but as a member in our own family just recently found out, her outstanding GPA and scholarship award is subject to budgetary cutbacks which she has no control over. She registered her classes by the deadline, but since her state sponsored scholarship funds weren't released in time, her county college enrollment for the next semester wasn't confirmed and her class choices were voided. This is a person whose parent is actively deployed military...and now has to fight to ensure that she gets the educational funding which she was promised in return for hard and dedicated work as a student. She is fortunate that her parents can fund the shortfall until her scholarship pays up...but can you imagine someone without those options having to fight tooth and nail for something which was promised to them? It doesn't surprise me that many people just give up, especially when they have no one who will stand behind them to make sure that those opportunities remain open to them. What kind of faith in the "System" can they be expected to exhibit, when it is so obviously skewed towards reserving opportunities for those that don't need them? How would a person view the educational system in general when it failed them before they even got a chance to get started? It makes for a very self-centered society, in making sure that "I get mine" before someone else "gets his" - teaching them, but not educating, that it is a Dog Eat Dog world out there, and that it is each man (or woman) for him/her self. That is the problem I see with the Educational System today. -------------------- Avatar made with Poser 6 and Photoshop Elements
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Dec 29 2008, 03:26 PM
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Shopping the sales rack at Madam Malkins Posts: 2,535 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse |
To a point I agree with you, momwitch. When I look at my son, or his friends, I see people. OTOH, I also look at the 800 young people my school district launches every May, and I see a commodity as well as individuals.
At K-12, I think we need to concentrate on a few fundamentals. Not all of the knowledge gained will be critical thinking. Some is of necessity rote memorization: Spelling, multiplication tables, the timeline of US (insert your nation-state here) history, all develop part of who we are. I'd hope someone coming out of K-12 is well grounded in: - The local language. For the US this means standard English, but we have LLers who are in other parts of the world. - The local history, followed by world history. Again, for me this means US... - Mathematics. - The sciences: Chemistry, biology, physics, and human health. - The fine arts. I think an ability to appreciate drama, music, painting, and sculpture are useful. The best way to learn appreciation is to be able to participate in one of more of the arts. - Physical fitness. There's an awful lot of "STUFF" we wrap around these: Home Economics, auto shop, other industrial arts, computing skills, "personal wellness", and on and on and on. I agree that critical thinking needs to be part of the K-12 experience, but where is the line between casting individual basic tools and then refining them? What do we value? What should a young person be ready to enter society with? That's what I'm asking... -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter |
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Dec 29 2008, 03:38 PM
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Waiting for Wednesdays  Posts: 9,341 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes  |
QUOTE How do we set our children up for success in this world. What should "right look like" at K-12? How do we avoid social promotion and undereducated young people leaving high school? Pull up a chair, I'll pour some good 'ole Texas Red Wine, cause this might take a while. LOL - Ok Never mind, I'll try to make it kind of short and sweet! This is what education looks like now:  We teach standards, we teach skills, it's not gonna bring out brilliant creative minds, but it's gonna fill a void that we find in the mind of the child. I often call what we do McDonald's Education. We are trying to make everything the same. I have a HUGE problem with that. This is what education should look like: We should meet the educational needs of every individual child. We teach them the basic skills, while nurturing to their learning styles. We also need to understand that for education has to work for each child we have to meet them where they are and move them ahead. Instead of just fulfilling a void, this type of education is fulfilling the potential of a child.  Let's look at a "fictional" math class: To really make our educational system work we need to look at each kid and design a lesson that fits them. So for example, if I went into a seventh grade math class and looked at three students ... Kid A is bored because he got this concept yesterday. He/She should be working on how to take that one concept to it's next level. Design a wall or a building using the new knowledge, maybe this kid is an incredible artist and could use the new math concept in art or find a computer game to help him practice his knew knowledge in a different medium. This might be one of those truly wonderful kids who can conceptualize and teach concepts to other kids. Kid B: Good student, but suffers in math. This lesson is great, but this kid doesn't have the foundation it takes to learn the lesson. Kid B has not understood much since 5th grade math because it moves to fast. Kid B would probably catch up to Kid A at the end of the year, but needs a slower and smaller class to get there. Put Kid B with a couple of kids at the same level and let them learn this skill in a smaller group, but much slower. Also, show them the concept several ways, use math in it's real world examples - like in buildings or at the grocery store. Or, let Kid A explain to Kid B how he/she came up with his new knowledge. Kid C: Hates school, and really hates math. Can't sit still and drives the teacher nuts. (This might have been me!) These kids need to learn the math skills, but paper and pencil are not their thing, and probably never will be. Teach them math with large blocks, use computers - teach the kid the concept, but teach them how they learn best. With movement and constant stimulation. As a system, education can't be all about skills, it has to be all about helping a child learn those skills at their own rate and we must teach them "where they are" instead of where we think they should be. Every child can not absorb and master all skills at the same rate as all of their peers. Right now we drive our education by teaching skills, we are teaching children. Yes, they have to learn these skills, but they have to do it at their own pace and with their own learning style. We also need to look at a few things that have to be addressed : Vocational Education: Every child should have a plan when they leave high school. While they will possibly alter their plan as they mature, we need to prepare them to be responsible adults, not just "graduates." We've missed the boat there. The goal should not be to get that diploma, the goal should be to have a viable resource and plan to help guarantee a successful adulthood. We need vocational education; we need job training and we need to push those college ready students to take the "early-college high school" options available to them to help them enter University prepared and with many of their undergraduate classes completed. Early Education: I have made most of my GT students read the book Why our Children Can't Read and What We Can Do About It. While the book is geared for teachers, it does contain several important ideas. First, we need to expose kids to the written text LONG before they are 5. The problem is, that in a media driven world many kids don't have "story time" at home any more. Yet, study after study tells us that children who are consistently ready to from pre-birth to pre-teen are more successful in school. We need to teach parents the importance of reading to their kids, we need to make sure that kids are getting read to in day cares, at the YMCA, in libraries and any where else we find groups of kids. Innovations: Let's look at all the educational psychologically we make our students teachers learn and start practicing it. Kids need to experiment, experience, record, analyze and synthesize the real world around them. Get them up out of the desk and make that happen. (Which leads to my next point) Money Makes the World Go Round: Guess what, this is all expensive! But if we don't pay now, we pay later. Our prison system is filled with bright men and women who are uneducated. Let's teach them a better way of life, let's spend the money now so we don't have to spend it supporting them later. Let's also make sure the brightest students teach by paying teachers what they are worth. It's horrible to see a wonderful teacher quit teaching because they have to send their kids to college and they can't afford to not work at a higher paying job. Pay these people what they are worth, they are insuring that our future is educated, let's make sure the brightest and most talented people stay in education. Our new Educational Secretary appears to have improved his school district's standardized test scores. This is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but we need more. Let's start comparing schools in other ways... % of students who graduate from a university in 5 years. # of students who've achieved honor student status. # of students who are Duke award winners % of National Merit Scholars # of UIL awards % of students who go on to State and National Math - Electronic - Science - Academic Fairs % of students who have met a set standard of Early-College High School credits % of students who are employable post-graduation and 5 years post-graduation % of students who go on to achieve a post-graduate degree Education is not a standardized test score, it's preparing a child for a life. We have 15 or so years to get it done and get it done so this kid can make his/her world a better place. There is nothing standardized about real life. I tell my students, life is not a test, it is a project. *Passes out coffee to anyone who read all of that* Education is so vital to our development as a society. My father's education and my son's education are vastly different as they should be. We have a great deal of work ahead of us. It's imperative that we start pushing our education system to give our students what they need. --------------------  My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It! |
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Dec 29 2008, 04:34 PM
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Shopping the sales rack at Madam Malkins Posts: 2,535 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse |
QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Dec 29 2008, 02:38 PM) To really make our educational system work we need to look at each kid and design a lesson that fits them. So for example, if I went into a seventh grade math class and looked at three students ... DorisTLC, Thanks, and most of what you said makes tremendous sense. My one problem is the statement above. That requires teachers to actually do some work. From what I've seen, too many teachers don't want to do that work ... in part because we don't value teaching and we pay really cruddy money in many cases... quite often tied to how many extra degrees one has. From what I've seen, only the very best teachers can take their lesson plan and adjust to individuals on the fly, and that's usually only after the young person is a known entity. BTW, I think I agree almost violently about your follow-on outcomes as being measurements of education. -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter |
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Dec 29 2008, 06:26 PM
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Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,341 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes |
QUOTE(JohannMdlAmerica @ Dec 29 2008, 03:34 PM) QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Dec 29 2008, 02:38 PM) To really make our educational system work we need to look at each kid and design a lesson that fits them. So for example, if I went into a seventh grade math class and looked at three students ... DorisTLC, Thanks, and most of what you said makes tremendous sense. My one problem is the statement above. That requires teachers to actually do some work. From what I've seen, too many teachers don't want to do that work ... in part because we don't value teaching and we pay really cruddy money in many cases... quite often tied to how many extra degrees one has. From what I've seen, only the very best teachers can take their lesson plan and adjust to individuals on the fly, and that's usually only after the young person is a known entity. BTW, I think I agree almost violently about your follow-on outcomes as being measurements of education. (bolding mine) There are two different things that spring to mind with your post, so I'm gonna address both of them. (again, sorry it's long and I  mods!)Unfair pressure on teachers: I think, like so many things, we have to look at the teacher and the pressure on the teacher. For example, I've taught "a while!" I do a few things that don't look "teacherish on paper" and I've been known to tell an administrator off from time to time. I've taught long enough to where they don't bug me, and eventually I found the right school, the right admin and the right fit. I taught my way, and yes standardized test scores went up, but that wasn't my driving force, my force was to make sure every kid learned at the rate that worked for them and that we both enjoyed the process. If you spend two minutes in my classroom you know I love being there. More importantly to me, so do the kids. Now - me a "few years" back. Before I felt confidant, before I was sure I'd not loose my job doing what I felt was right, well my principal would have leaned on me for test scores. I started off as a basketball coach but taught English as well. If I had a principal leaning on me for scores - I'd have done what so many teachers do, or loose my job. In the same way that if my teams consistently lost games, I'd have lost that job as well. I also could not have altered lessons on the spot, not because I didn't want to, but because in a class of thirty you teach to the middle. The middle is where most kids are, you try to grab most kids. If I'd have pulled aside just those low kids, the middle and up kids would get bored and cause problems. To solve this teachers need aids in the class all the time. The aid can be a student aid, or an adult trained to help, but you can't leave most of your kids to work with just a few. (and those high end kids who get bored, they'll blow your classroom up - or maybe just my son does that!) These is no way to say this nicely, it comes across horrible no matter how I say it. The principal becomes the "business manager" making sure the teachers put out enough "widgets." The widgets have to pass that test, or the business manager's budget is reduced by the head office. (which is the state in most cases) The business manager knows that if the budget is cut then non-essential things must be cut. These are student aids, secretaries and fine arts or PE programs. If the majority of the kids is in the middle, then teaching to them to assure they pass a test is what happens. Let's go back to my example math class. Students B&C might not do well on a standardized test for that year. Not because they are not learning, but because they are not ready to learn the skills some bureaucrat somewhere thinks he/she should be learning at this age. These kids may have jumped two years in their independent knowledge of math, but they still maybe behind the standard. If I were that math teacher and the principal walked into my class and said, "teach the skills on your state approved curriculum guide or loose your job" and I have a kid of my own at home, well what do I do? You get what you pay for: Like any profession there will always be professionals who are not there for the right reasons, but until we ensure only the brightest of our students are in the teaching profession we'll never have those innovative ideas. Also, future administrators are current teachers. If we have the best and brightest in the classroom, they eventually filter up and take over the running of the district. When a district's budget is based on a test score, well it's wrong. There are hard working teachers out there in poor neighborhoods whose kids will never excel on a standardized test. This isn't the teachers fault as much as it's just the way the test is written. This teacher, will have two choices, leave the school to find a place where the scores are higher to start so she/he doesn't get fired and face loosing their certification. If I'm that teacher, and I teach to a majority of the kids in my class, then some are "left behind." We need to make sure teachers are paid so that their pay is comparable with other professions requiring the same amount of educational requirements. Most states are leaning towards teachers being "highly qualified" which means most of them with have an MA or MS within 5 years of certification. My state requires I have an MS in Reading as well as the BA in literature and a BS in education. (I think I can have a minor in education now) After achieving that I look forward to 280 hours of Continuing Development every 5 years that I have to pay for. (all states have the CD requirement, all are different) Since I also teach Gifted and Talented students I have to have a certification to do that, which was 30 hours on top of everything else. Many of your more seasoned teachers are grandfathered out of these requirements. Can you see why so many teachers leave the profession within the first 5 years? There are many things we need to do to improve education. Many of the best teachers I've ever worked with have had to leave teaching for money. This is a shame - but the truth is, as a technical writer for a NASA subcontractor, one of my best former - teacher friends makes three times what I make, works about half as much and doesn't have to grade papers all night. She also is able to put her son through college without student loans. (and by the way, she has a BS in literature while I have well - spent too much time and money in Universities) She loved teaching, and loved her kids as much as I did. She was a single mom without anyone to help her and needed to assure her kids were taken care of. Until we make sure that those kinds of teachers don't have to make that choice, we'll always have teachers like some of the ones you described above. (sorry again guys for making you read this long post! I you!)
-------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It! |
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Dec 30 2008, 02:11 PM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,963 Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005 Location: at Home or somewhere in between |
I think that there is still a stigma attached to teaching which was (first?) "promoted"
 when a person's income potential became associated with the amount and "quality" of education that they possessed: Those that can't do, teach. I found an interesting blog entry here that really sums up quite well the large misconceptions that are crippling the progress of education.On another tangent, I woke up this morning thinking of two words that are often associated with reaching the common "goal" of going to school: Commencement and Graduation. (Nope, Leaky is not a major part of my life! LOL Or is it...  ) I remember when completing exams so that I could graduate, my friends and I wondered why Graduation was called a commencement, since being on the rather geeky side of AP type English classes, we knew that commencement meant beginning! LOL  Even the word graduation has its own set of subtle innuendos that have all but completely left the true meaning of the word itself. Most people I know who go to their graduations have a feeling of: I've Made It! Made it to where? If we really take a moment to think about it, a graduation is a progression to a higher level, yet it isn't a leap (or tossing of a mortarboard), it is merely an acknowledged advancement to a gradually higher level of learning. Learning isn't completed at graduation...it is a new beginning...as evidenced by the mortarboard itself:QUOTE mortarboard n 1: a square board with a handle; used by masons to hold or carry mortar 2: an academic cap topped by a flat square with a tassel Interesting that a graduate wears a mortarboard, which is similar in design to a mason's tool to assist them in holding and keeping ready, the "glue" needed to build strong structures! In an academic's application, this glue is the knowledge that he has acquired, supported by the strong tools of a finely honed ability to think soundly and firmly - which is the real "product" of a good education...the symbolism used clearly defines its aim and focus!
-------------------- Avatar made with Poser 6 and Photoshop Elements
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Dec 30 2008, 03:44 PM
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Ollivander's Apprentice Posts: 2,221 Joined: 7:39pm March 11, 2007 Location: wandering in the Forbidden Forest, listening for the Phoenix song |
QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Dec 29 2008, 06:26 PM) When a district's budget is based on a test score, well it's wrong. There are hard working teachers out there in poor neighborhoods whose kids will never excel on a standardized test. This isn't the teachers fault as much as it's just the way the test is written. This teacher, will have two choices, leave the school to find a place where the scores are higher to start so she/he doesn't get fired and face loosing their certification. If I'm that teacher, and I teach to a majority of the kids in my class, then some are "left behind." We need to make sure teachers are paid so that their pay is comparable with other professions requiring the same amount of educational requirements. Most states are leaning towards teachers being "highly qualified" which means most of them with have an MA or MS within 5 years of certification. My state requires I have an MS in Reading as well as the BA in literature and a BS in education. (I think I can have a minor in education now) After achieving that I look forward to 280 hours of Continuing Development every 5 years that I have to pay for. (all states have the CD requirement, all are different) Since I also teach Gifted and Talented students I have to have a certification to do that, which was 30 hours on top of everything else. Many of your more seasoned teachers are grandfathered out of these requirements. Happy New Year, Everyone! May it bring you all your heart's desire.....What a great thread.......  As a parent who recently moved her children a half a continent away in search of better education (of course, among other reasons!), this thread is most timely! I concur completely that teaching according to passing standardized tests is a set-up for failure. In our former state, the public elementary school in our area (rated "A") taught only math, science, reading, and writing. Art was once a week, as was PE. There was no history, social studies, foreign language, music, etc because they were not on the end-of-year standardized tests. I was aghast. If a student did not pass the end of year tests in all areas, they were held back. My questions was, and remains: How can we teach "the whole child" when we restrict what they are exposed to, and are limited in their perspective? How do you reach the children who excel in areas outside of these minimal basics? What about the students who are "unevenly gifted", and who do extraordinarily well in one or two area and struggle in others? Every child learns differently, as we all know, yet they were all expected to regurgitate information according to what was on the tests. I know that the teachers were less-than-happy, as they had to meet certain performance criteria and have a certain number of students pass the tests in order to remain employed. I saw the entire system as a set-up for failure. And I rejected it. Private school became the only option. But - what about those for whom it is not a choice? I agree that we, as a society, have to know what our children are learning, and we need to see continual improvement in test scores and true understanding of the subject they are taking. But....is requiring standardized testing and tying that to funding and jobs truly the best answer? I love the idea of paying teachers enough to make their jobs a true labour of love. As the adage goes, you get what you pay for, and seemingly we don't value our children very much if we limit the compensation to those who hold our children's future in their hands. Two of my dearest friends are teachers in elementary and in middle school, and I cannot imagine two more dedicated professionals who truly love teaching. However, one is "down for the count" after receiving minimal pay as a mom of three, continual criticisms from parents and the administration, and many students who treated classes as an exercise in endurance only. Sigh. I have no answers. Only onward searching....and continual involvement. This post has been edited by fidelia: Dec 30 2008, 03:47 PM --------------------  |
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Dec 30 2008, 09:53 PM
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Shopping the sales rack at Madam Malkins Posts: 2,535 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse |
fidelia,
I think all of us agree standardized testing isn't the answer. I think we do need a measurement, but I assure you I have no clue what right looks like. I think we must provide for the whole person in our educational matrix: That is a weakness of NCLB. Music, as but one example of a fine art with a crossover, helps teach higher math just as much as it introduces joy and passion into life. I do know this: I object, at a gut-check level, to social promotion. A child should move up only when he's ready, and not as a part of a year group. Of course, I also think proficiency is tied off to no less than a straight B in a subject. -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter |
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Dec 30 2008, 10:39 PM
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Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,341 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes |
QUOTE(JohannMdlAmerica @ Dec 30 2008, 08:53 PM) fidelia, I think all of us agree standardized testing isn't the answer. I think we do need a measurement, but I assure you I have no clue what right looks like. *Raises hand to answer question* The way measurement should look: At the start of the year I take a standard benchmark. This benchmark tells my teacher where I am at, then my teacher can look at the knowledge objectives for the subject and can teach me accordingly. At the end of the year I take another benchmark based on my knowledge objectives for the year. The teacher shares the results with my parents and my principal. My teachers from next year should also see how I ended the year. Think of how much more money would be available for all of the cool things we can offer kids if we take the bureaucrats our of education. Also, while you are looking at my progress, look at these things too. Did I pass my Presidential Physical Fitness Exam? Am I involved in some kind of fine arts program in school, if so did I progress? Once I'm in secondary school (6th grade and up here in the states) am I taking part in service learning projects at my school? How did my Science Fair project do, did I join a team? We don't teach children anymore, we're teaching skills. There is a belief that if you capture a kids heart you can capture their minds. In saying this I don't mean that you want the kid to love you, but if the child loves school, feels happy and respected once they are there, they will do well in school. This "Capturing Kids Hearts" philosophy really stresses respecting kids as individuals. Getting to know them, know what makes them tick and learn to use that to infuse them with the desire to go to school. These kids may never love all of their subjects, but they recognize that school is a vital place that teaches them a skill they'll need later. If you ask many children today why they go to school, most think it's to pass a test. This post has been edited by DorisTLC: Dec 30 2008, 10:42 PM
Reason for edit: I seem to be unable to make my links work!
-------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It! |
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