Fidelius Forever, The theme of loyalty within Goblet of Fire |
 May 5 2009, 11:35 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer  Posts: 116 Joined: 2:50am January 3, 2008 Location: the kitchen chilling with house elves.  |
As we near the closing of the final chapters of Goblet of Fire, when so much is revealed and so much is questioned, it seems appropriate to have a thread on the subject of loyalty...(so, here goes!)
"I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me" (Dumbledore, Chamber of Secrets, pg. 264) We've always known that Harry is Dumbledore's man, through and through, but what exactly does that mean? Loyalty can be the ideal which springs from the bond of love and trust people have with each other, or it can be the foolhardy blindness which arises from asking too few questions, and following the bloody trail of power. Loyalty can be found in places where it is expected such as nations, schools and families. It can also be mysteriously absent. Above all, loyalty to the self is paramount for when we are not true to ourselves we diminish ourselves until we are nothing at all. In this thread I would like to examine the significance of loyalty within Goblet of Fire: where can we find different examples of it? What motivates the characters to be loyal or disloyal? Finally, Goblet of Fire is the center piece of the series, how does the ideal of loyalty branch out and hold the series together as a whole? I will spread out the groups of questions over time, to give you the opportunity for in depth examinations of all the ideas which are hopefully crowding themselves into your heads. Feel free to pose questions of your own, of course. Enjoy! The questions will arrive (in quick succession! : ) ) in this order: Friends The Triwizard Champions Families Good vs. Evil Dumbledore and Harry (and a bit of Snape…) The Beginning: Friendships  There is nothing quite like being able to trust a friend. Someone who is not bound to you by blood, but who chooses to stand by you. Ron, Harry and Hermione have such a friendship. However, there are, of course, fights in which their faith in each other is tested. -Why doesn't Ron believe Harry about the Goblet? Do you think Hermione tries to convince him otherwise? -What motivates Ron to apologize? -How does Ron's jealousy of Krum drive a wedge into the friendship? -Harry is often caught up in the middle of Ron and Hermione's fights. How does Harry stay loyal to both friends during their bickering? Does he do a good job of remaining neutral or does he tend to pick a side? -What differences or similarities are there between Harry’s loyalty to Hagrid as compared to his loyalty to Ron and Hermione? -------------------- "As is a story, so is life. What matters in not how long it is, but how good it is"--Seneca
 thank you dillypoo for the sig! |
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May 6 2009, 08:30 AM
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Butterbeer Connoisseur  Posts: 1,465 Joined: 1:16pm April 18, 2007 Location: Horcrux hunting...  |
Good topic Tarantellegra!
-Why doesn't Ron believe Harry about the Goblet? Do you think Hermione tries to convince him otherwise? This goes back to Ron's low self esteem. He feels left out and slighted. Afterall Harry said, if he would decide to enter the tournament, he and Ron would do it together, without the prying eyes of the rest of the school. This falls into self loyalty for Ron, if he looked closely at his feelings, he would know Harry hasn't lied to him before, why start now. "To thine ownself be true" -What motivates Ron to apologize? When he sees the first task..he realizes Harry didn't sign up for this, which he knew all along. He finally felt he could admit his faux pas. His loyalty to Harry finally got the upper hand with his emotions. -How does Ron's jealousy of Krum drive a wedge into the friendship? Ron's loyalty to Hermione is different than to Harry. Ron's unrealized romantic feelings for her will always cause him to question his loyalty to their friendship. So he strikes out at Hermione. Ron reacts first and thinks later. So many times after he has made the "big scene", he thinks oops...I screwed up. It's hard to apologize when you are wrong. Besides, this is the first real jolt of jealousy for another guy being interested in "his" Hermione. --------------------  |
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May 6 2009, 02:03 PM
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 298 Joined: 1:43pm May 17, 2007 Location: Looking for a good book to read... |
-Why doesn't Ron believe Harry about the Goblet? Do you think Hermione tries to convince him otherwise?
Ron doesn't want to believe that Harry has once again randomly been placed in a position that will gain him attention. Ron is the youngest son in a large family of high achievers. We knew from SS that Ron's greatest desire was to see himself set apart from his family. He's always been really supportive of Harry no matter what and I think that this moment was just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I think Hermione may have tried to convnince Ron at first, but probably backed off because I like to believe that she was astute enough to know the REAL issue and to just let the boys work through it on their own. -What motivates Ron to apologize? I think that Ron realized early on what a prat he was being, but wasn't able to "man-up" and face Harry and apologize. It wasn't until he saw the real danger his best friend was put in with the dragon task, that Ron felt brave enough to repent for his rotten behavior. -How does Ron's jealousy of Krum drive a wedge into the friendship? Well, the relationship had already taken a hard hit and Harry was probably feeling a little more favorable towards Hermione because she stood by him when Ron didn't. So when Ron starts making a donkey of himself because he can't grasp that he's jealous because he loves Hermione, Harry, who can see what is going on, favors more Hermione's side in that situation. -Harry is often caught up in the middle of Ron and Hermione's fights. How does Harry stay loyal to both friends during their bickering? Does he do a good job of remaining neutral or does he tend to pick a side? For the most part, Harry does a pretty good job. Now in PoA, Hermione had offended them both so that doesn't count, but Harry handles it by spending time with both parties in situations that they are comfortable in and keeping his mouth shut a lot. -What differences or similarities are there between Harry’s loyalty to Hagrid as compared to his loyalty to Ron and Hermione? Harry's loyalty to Hagrid stems from the fact that Hargrid was the very first person Harry met from the wizarding world. Hagrid has proven to Harry how loyal he can be to not only Harry, but also to Dumbledore and anyone Hagrid feels deserves his loyalty. Also, it's kind of like a parental role for Harry and Hagrid. You know, a situation where you love and trust and are loyal to a person because they were the first. With Ron and Hermione, it's like any adolescent friendship. Your basic hope and desire is that these people will deserve your loyalty, but in the end, you can never be sure how well you know someone or where their interests really lie, who they are looking out for. Also, both Ron and Hermione have other people they can rely on in their worlds. Ron has his large family and Hermione has her parents as well. Harry doesn't really have anyone outside of school. He connected with Hagrid before he knew about the wizarding world, and so that is like his end all - know all. Hagrid is his rock, his foundation. Hermione and Ron are his soul mates. It's just a different dynamic. --------------------   Never judge a book by its movie. ~J.W. Eagan |
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May 6 2009, 06:11 PM
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Muffin Mistress Posts: 2,178 Joined: 10:42pm March 8, 2008 Location: RG Cookie Factory - reciting: "Oven at 350 F is too warm to touch with bare hands" |
QUOTE(Tarantellegra) -Why doesn't Ron believe Harry about the Goblet? Do you think Hermione tries to convince him otherwise? A lot has been said about Ron, the big family and his family being poor in various debates in chapter threads and elsewhere, but right here in this particular situation, I really think Ron acts like a spoiled brat, and after damage is done, he hasn't got any idea as to how to safe his face! To be spoiled is nothing to do with being rich or poor, or with how many siblings there is, but more to do with the combination of the kids' psyche and the way the upbringing were. But anyway I just got so annoyed and Ron reminded me of the kids in the store throwing a fit when their mom says they can't have sweets!!! And he's so helpless afterwards when there's no way back unless he accepts to his failor! I'm convinced I read something about Hermione running between them: yupp - p. 277, Bloomsbury hb, (chapter 19 - about 2 1/2 page into it) it says: "Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to the other, trying to force them to talk to each other, but ..." - and I know it says also, that it's Harry being 'adamant' about requiring an appology from Ron, but I also think Harry deserved one, and alas Harry wasn't old enough to choose to forget about Ron's slip-up! (I wouldn't either at that age, and I'm not sure I would today either, when it comes to being called a liar!) This post has been edited by The-T-Dane: May 6 2009, 06:12 PM -------------------- |
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May 8 2009, 08:43 AM
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Claw-Clipping Kneazles at the Magical Menegerie Posts: 2,428 Joined: 11:46am June 29, 2007 Location: K'nexing Lirene |
I agree with you, The-T-Dane, I was just as annoyed with Ron, as you were. He acted like a spoiled brat, and that wasn't the only time. Bill and Charlie weren't spoiled at all and got their kicks out of doing well but not being stuffy about it. Percy was stuffy and priggish, and shone in his mother's eyes by doing so well in school and never causing her any grief. The twins had each other, and although they were in and out of mischief, they were very popular. And, of course, Ginny was the youngest and the only girl. That leaves Ron as the youngest boy, and the youngest child in a family can be catered to without having many expectations made of them. For all that Ron had low self esteem, he was also used to being catered to in a way that the older ones weren't. I found his behavior very irritating in this book and also in DH, and I didn't blame Harry for wanting an apology for being called a liar, and in the end, when Ron saw that Harry hadn't been lying, Harry didn't want an apology anymore. --------------------  wonderful signature is courtesy of atschpe  Thanks Mokey |
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May 8 2009, 09:35 PM
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Hitchhiker's Guide of Harry's Alchemical Journeys Posts: 2,870 Joined: 9:08pm March 20, 2006 Location: In the Alchemy Lab |
I understand why Ron makes you guys crazy and you see him as being a brat. Maybe it's because I am the youngest in my family that I have a bit more empathy for him, but ... I think Ron's actions are really quite typical for a teen of his age and in his circumstances. Ron has been Harry's champion for 3 years, and now again, Harry gets singled out, seemingly on his own volition. Ron has had enough. He wants some recognition - especially since he has helped Harry out more than anyone really realizes (except of course Hermione). Teens of this age are pretty self-centered and Ron fits that mold pretty easily. Anyway, I just had to say that Ron's actions although immature, aren't that outside the realm of normal growing up behaviors that all teens have.
The real factor we have to look at is that Ron comes back. He realizes that his friendship with Harry is too good to sacrifice for any reason. Now that is a special characteristic of Ron. He may act very stupidly at times, but he has enough humbleness in him, to realize his mistakes and own up to them (eventually). His loyalty to his family, to Harry and Hermione is extremely special. It's hard to find friends like that, who are willing to get angry with you - even separate themselves from you, but in the end they are faithful to you and make an effort to reunite with you. They are the friends that have to work at being a friend and that makes them all the more special. -------------------- Sorting begins soon for HBP! Follow the Lily and Stag on twitter, too! Thanks twiddlethosedials for the Siggy! |
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May 11 2009, 06:29 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 116 Joined: 2:50am January 3, 2008 Location: the kitchen chilling with house elves. |
interesting thoughts on Ron, guys! I definitely agree that he was a jerk... but his feeling neglected in the context of Harry's fame makes it more understandable, doesn't it? He's always been treated like the baby so he kind of just assumed that role on his own even after everyone expected him to grow up. I definitely agree with HealerOne about the significance of a friend who's willing to work to win your trust back. Anyway, I'm popping in with the next set of questions! enjoy
 The Triwizard Champions "The Triwizard Tournament's aim was to further and promote magical understanding. In the light of what has happened –Lord Voldemort's return–such ties are more important than ever…we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided" (627 UK edition) Unlike Ron's fiery statement accusing Hermione of "fraternizing with the enemy" (367 UK ed.) the tournament itself brings people together in the spirit of competition. This is a strange contradiction. Think about the tournament: -Are the students of Hogwarts more loyal to their school or to Cedric or Harry separately? -When does Harry possess more support than Cedric? What causes this change? -What do you think Jo was trying to demonstrate by juxtaposing the grand event of the Triwizard tournament with the catastrophe of Voldemort's return? -------------------- "As is a story, so is life. What matters in not how long it is, but how good it is"--Seneca
thank you dillypoo for the sig! |
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May 12 2009, 10:39 PM
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Ollivander's Phoenix Feather Plucker Posts: 4,019 Joined: 1:37am January 29, 2005 Location: In the south where no Dementor can find me |
QUOTE(HealerOne @ May 9 2009, 02:35 AM)  The real factor we have to look at is that Ron comes back. He realizes that his friendship with Harry is too good to sacrifice for any reason. Now that is a special characteristic of Ron. He may act very stupidly at times, but he has enough humbleness in him, to realize his mistakes and own up to them (eventually). I quite agree about Ron and think that DD the great observer had a close eye on Ron and this behaviour. Maybe this was also when he decided to pass him the deluminator to help him come back if he separated from the other two in the search of Horcruxes after DD death. QUOTE What do you think Jo was trying to demonstrate by juxtaposing the grand event of the Triwizard tournament with the catastrophe of Voldemort's return? DD was working for the comming togehter inside the WW and the other one (V.) sadly was working very hard on separation, killing, destroying, mistrust .... It was interesting to see the greater WW be it at the QWC or Tri Wizard Tournament, it helped us to understand the importance of protecting them all against V. and his D.E. Imagine all those nice and fabulous people. It's easier to protect and fight for what you know and apreciate. And this comming together forged nice friendships and mutual understanding, including one marriage.  Without Bill and Fleur the trio wouldn't had so a nice hidding place in DH. Hagrid and Maxime were visiting the giants together. Thanks to Krum and Gregorowitch, Harry understood what V. was looking for.
This post has been edited by Eva Hedwig: May 12 2009, 11:02 PM |
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May 17 2009, 06:19 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 116 Joined: 2:50am January 3, 2008 Location: the kitchen chilling with house elves. |
Thanks for all your wonderful thoughts, everybody!
Since it's so close to the end, I'm going to post all the remaining questions right now, have fun! Good vs. Evil -Why are some characters loyal to Voldemort and some to Dumbledore? What motivates them? -It is one thing to do no evil, to recognize the line between right and wrong. It is quite another to act, to stand directly in its path and stop it in its track, to sacrifice yourself for the good of others. Consider the difference between Harry and Cornelius Fudge, for example. Which characters have the courage to be loyal to their convictions and which do not? Furthermore, what causes these discrepancies? Are those who shy away from defending what is right as culpable as those who are truly prejudiced and cruel? -Consider Wormtail: In a sense he is loyal to no one. He has betrayed both sides, and lives in fear of everything and everyone. He is, of course, the one who broke the Fidelius (loyalty, ding * ding!) charm in the first place. Do you think he has any real convictions? Or is he only loyal to his own self-interest? -Voldemort continually uses the word loyalty to describe the duty of his followers. But, how does he actually think of loyalty? Does it make much difference to him whether they are loyal out of fear or loyal out of true devotion, as long as they are loyal? Families "You are not my son!"-Barty Crouch Senior "He rolled over and saw Mr Weasley striding towards them, looking terrified. 'Ron–Harry–' his voice sounded shaky, 'Hermione – are you alright?'" (117 UK ed) In the top quotation a man disowns his son, in the bottom, a worried father checks to see if his son and his son's friends, who are as dear to him as family, are safe. We naturally assume that a parent's love is instinctual. Yet, those bonds can be broken, as we see in the disintegration of the Crouch family. -Compare and Contrast the loyalty (or lack thereof) in the Crouch and Weasley families that the Crouch family and the Weasley family have (or do not have). -Crouch disowns his son, and yet, at his wife's request, smuggles him out of Azkaban only to die at his son's hands. Was Crouch Senior’s decision to remain loyal to his wife’s memory the right one considering how dangerous Crouch Jr. was? -What about Winky? Dobby? and House-elves in general? For a house elf, loyalty is a sacred thing. While Dobby breaks off from his old masters, Winkey remains loyal to the last. Compare their sense of loyalty. -Consider Hagrid and his father? Is Hagrid disloyal to his family because of his shame of his mother? What sparks his return to being loyal to his father? Finally, consider the relationship between Harry and Dumbledore. There is loyalty, faith and love of an amazing caliber between them. -Post Deathly Hallows analysis: what evidence can you find of the inner struggle Dumbledore was going through, knowing the Harry might die, what evidence can you find to demonstrate Dumbledore's realization that everything might work out (I'm thinking of a very specific passage here…points to whoever can find it first!) -Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore is essential. However, given how Machiavellian Dumbledore is times, is it well deserved? - Can Dumbledore's decision to keep certain secrets from Harry in order to lead him to that ultimate triumph be seen as a form of loyalty? That is, simply put, does Dumbledore remain truly loyal to Harry throughout the series? -What about Snape? Is the loyalty he shows Harry and Dumbledore true loyalty? Or is it all displaced, unrequited love for Lily? (Though this comes into play mostly in book 6, what are your impressions of his loyalty from this book looking forwards?) -------------------- "As is a story, so is life. What matters in not how long it is, but how good it is"--Seneca
thank you dillypoo for the sig! |
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May 18 2009, 08:54 PM
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Muffin Mistress Posts: 2,178 Joined: 10:42pm March 8, 2008 Location: RG Cookie Factory - reciting: "Oven at 350 F is too warm to touch with bare hands" |
QUOTE(Tarantellegra) Why are some characters loyal to Voldemort and some to Dumbledore? What motivates them? I believe the ones following Voldy are the ones seeking the easy way to fame, fortune or success of other sorts! The ones 'following' DD are willing to do the effort - to work for what they want to accomplish! Of Course that's the 'easy' way to put it - the short version, because it's not as black and white at all - there's all the grey scales in between! There are family values - what I'm brought up to believe in and how I'm taught to manage, if I'm brought up to think for myself or just follow the stream. There is the question about who I meet and if I'm able to make a true connection - if I*m able to figure out if they want what's best for all of us or not! And then there's how ambitious I am! Do I want fame and fortune for their own sake or do I realize being famous/rich is sweeter if it's for an incredible invention and/or a hard work well done? Do I like Draco feel like I am ENTITLED just for my names sake? Not realizing that somewhere down the line, someone were working hard to accumulate the fortune I now have? Or do I realize, that my fortune demands me to act responsible and share - if not my fortune directly, then there's the freedom my fortune gives me, that makes me able to go and do something useful to others without worrying about the next paycheck. All in all, I think it's about thinking outside myself! If I'm able to do that, then I'm less likely to be a follower of Voldy's! -------------------- |
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