The official webforum of the The-Leaky-Cauldron.org LeakyNews.com: Leaky Info | Potter News | Features | Interactive | Galleries | The Books | The Films | For Fun

Leaky Lounge

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )
The Rules : FAQ : Search : Member List : Sitemap

Forum News: New Book Nook now open, discussing J D Salinger's "The Catcher in the Rye"
Hot Thread: Stand In Line! The Harry Potter Theme Park/Ride!
Mod Thread: Nominate an Actor/Actress of the Month to discuss

4 Pages V  « < 2 3 4  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Gender/Sexuality orientation in the Books, General discussion of how HP addresses these issues
The_Courtezan
post Jul 1 2009, 11:24 PM
Post #1
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper


*

Posts: 60
Joined: 3:03pm August 19, 2006
Location: way down south, where the buffaloes grow




So, because I am a college student surrounded by women's studies majors (ie, all of my female friends) and because I was one of those fangirls who were excited to find out that Dumbledore was *gasp* A GAY! I was wondering what other people thought in terms of hints of either Dumbledore's sexuality, or any other queer characters that might appear in the books (Queer being used here as an umbrella term for all LGBTQ characters that might exist in Potterverse). I'm not one for stereotyping, but I'll admit...I have my questions...

I leave it up to you, ladies and gents! What do you think?


This post has been edited by The_Courtezan: Jul 1 2009, 11:28 PM


--------------------
Amoebas were not complex. They tore themselves apart and started sex.
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
4 Pages V  « < 2 3 4  
Start new topic
Replies (30 - 39)
Moose_Starr
post Aug 12 2009, 11:58 AM
Post #31
Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man


Group Icon

Posts: 11,144
Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005
Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape




















QUOTE(roonwit @ Jul 7 2009, 09:19 PM) *
QUOTE(The_Courtezan @ Jul 7 2009, 03:37 PM) *
As far as "should these topics be found in children's books," I don't see why then shouldn't.
The problem is that a lot of people would still take exception to such things being in children's books.

Which is an incredibly sad statement about the world we live in.
I know that I have said this in the past but, I'll say it again because it bothers me. A lot of people would take exception to homosexuality in kids books. I dont think HP is a kids book lol but, for the sake of this discussion I'll say that it is. So, some people would object to homosexuality in the series of HP kids books in which we see murder, mutilation, torture, brutality, terror, kidnap, death, dead people, dead people come back to life ... but, we must protect our kids from two guys that like each other. blink.gif

I still think it's cool that JKR answered the question and didnt avoid it or deny that DD was gay. But, had she written DD or another character as gay then she could have, as Pleione asked, broken new ground. I do think JKR has edged *mainstream* literature a fraction closer to more open-mindedness but, while an author so well respected and so hugely popular as JKR doesnt dare write an openly gay character we are still living in dark and difficult times.


--------------------

I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.


When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan
Thanks Jeff!
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
JohannMdlAmerica
post Aug 13 2009, 03:26 PM
Post #32
Claw-Clipping Kneazles at the Magical Menegerie


***

Posts: 2,452
Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007
Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse


















I think it was fidelia who taught me, a couple years ago, that an author's BOW once written stands on its own merits.

Rowling can say DD is gay until the cows come home. What I see in the DD/GW relationship is not something born of sexuality and erotic lust, but rather something born of a mutual lust for power.

The last time I checked, homosexuality included an erotic element in it.

Sorry folks, this one I do not see at all. If anything, I see DD a-sexual.


--------------------
The last enemy to be destroyed is death--
First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26
The epitaph of James and Lily Potter
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
Kalin
post Aug 13 2009, 10:21 PM
Post #33
Cauldron Bottom Measurer


**

Posts: 134
Joined: 12:32am February 26, 2009




QUOTE(JohannMdlAmerica @ Aug 14 2009, 05:56 AM) *
The last time I checked, homosexuality included an erotic element in it.

Sorry folks, this one I do not see at all. If anything, I see DD a-sexual.


Agreed that the erotic element is not explicit in the portrayal of Dumbledore's and Grindelwald's friendship but I must say that there was something there, something almost intangible, which spelled something more than just a friendship that blossomed and died. When I read it (and this was prior to knowing about JKR's statement regarding Dumbledore's sexuality), I had this irresistable feeling that this was a passionate, albeit doomed, love affair, a meeting of minds and bodies if you like. I don't have to books handy so unfortunately I cannot provide a supporting quote. I never interpreted Dumbledore's little peculiarities or his flamboyant robes as indicating homosexuality, but I definitely picked up a vibe in connection with Grindelwald.

I do however agree that it is just that; a vibe, not explicit, it is a side story that exists outside of the main plot (of course the tragic end of the relationship with Grindelwald and Dumbledore's consequent guilt is important, but not whether there was a love affair or merely friendship). It is open for interpretation and I also agree that before I knew about Grindelwald Dumbledore comes across as distinctly asexual and alone. Harry himself admits to himself, when he reads Elphias Doge's piece in the Daily Prophet that he imagines Dumbledore having sprung into life the way he is: Old, wise and benevolent. The idea that he was once young is simply odd. Perhaps this is why his dealings with Grindelwald stands out as something more than mutual inspiration and recognition of another brilliant mind.

I think that interpreting it as more than friendship explains Dumbledore's character (and his actions) better than if it wasn't.


This post has been edited by Kalin: Aug 13 2009, 11:13 PM
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
biggestharrypott...
post Aug 13 2009, 10:49 PM
Post #34
Cauldron Bottom Measurer


**

Posts: 123
Joined: 11:54pm April 26, 2009
Location: Eeylops Owl Emporium




QUOTE(Kalin @ Aug 13 2009, 08:21 PM) *
QUOTE(JohannMdlAmerica @ Aug 14 2009, 05:56 AM) *
The last time I checked, homosexuality included an erotic element in it.

Sorry folks, this one I do not see at all. If anything, I see DD a-sexual.


Agreed that the erotic element is not explicit in the portrayal of Dumbledore's and Grindelwald's friendship but I must say that there was something there, something almost intangible, which spelled something more than just a friendship that blossomed and died. When I read it (and this was prior to knowing about JKR's statement regarding Dumbledore's sexuality), I had this irresistable feeling that this was a passionate, albeit doomed, love affair, a meeting of minds and bodies if you like. I don't have to books handy so unfortunately I cannot provide a supporting quote. I never interpreted Dumbledore's little peculiarities or his flamboyant robes as indicating homosexuality, but I definitely picked up a vibe in connection with Grindelwald.

I do however agree that it is just that; a vibe, not explicit, it is a side story that exists outside of the main plot (of course the tragic end of the relationship with Grindelwald and Dumbledore's consequent guilt is important, but not whether there was a love affair or merely friendship). It is open for interpretation and I also agree that before I knew about Grindelwald Dumbledore comes across as distinctly asexual and alone. Harry himself admits to himself, when he reads Elphias Doge's piece in the Daily Prophet that he imagines Dumbledore having sprung into life the way he is: Old, wise and benevolent. The idea that he was once young is simply odd. Perhaps this is why his dealings with Grindelwald stands out as something more than mutual inspiration and recognition of another brilliant mind.

I think that interpreting it as more than friendship explains Dumbledore's character (and his actions) better than if it wasn't.


yeah, i think after his whole experience with Grindelwald, Dumbledore probably thought that he couldn't trust himself in matters of sexual love. however, it's interesting that he continued to tell everyone how powerful love was, though.


--------------------
"I love you, Hermione," said Ron, sinking back in his chair, rubbing his eyes wearily.
Hermione turned faintly pink, but merely said, "Don't let Lavender hear you saying that."
HBP, p. 533
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
JohannMdlAmerica
post Aug 14 2009, 04:27 PM
Post #35
Claw-Clipping Kneazles at the Magical Menegerie


***

Posts: 2,452
Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007
Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse


















From the Chili's at Tampa Airport..

What the two of you see as an intangible to a personal attraction I see as an intangible to power lust. Remember the common term they developed ... for the greater good! They were both willing to blow the statute on secrecy to hell and gone to get their way. What brought DD back? The death of his lovely, wonderful, sweet, innocent sister Ariane. She,to me, is the finding point of DD's love.


--------------------
The last enemy to be destroyed is death--
First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26
The epitaph of James and Lily Potter
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
Kalin
post Aug 15 2009, 06:43 PM
Post #36
Cauldron Bottom Measurer


**

Posts: 134
Joined: 12:32am February 26, 2009




QUOTE(JohannMdlAmerica @ Aug 15 2009, 06:57 AM) *
From the Chili's at Tampa Airport..

What the two of you see as an intangible to a personal attraction I see as an intangible to power lust. Remember the common term they developed ... for the greater good! They were both willing to blow the statute on secrecy to hell and gone to get their way. What brought DD back? The death of his lovely, wonderful, sweet, innocent sister Ariane. She,to me, is the finding point of DD's love.



I happen to agree with that (hence saying it was a meeting of minds and bodies). However, the fact that it was their ideas that formed the basis for this infatuation (whether physical or not) does not exclude the interpretation that there was an erotic element to their relationship. I feel that this physical aspect of their relationship is hinted at in the description of Grindelwald. When we meet him he is this wild, untamed beautiful (on the surface at least) being. When I read that, I wondered what the reason behind this could be.

Gilderoy Lockhart is described as attractive so that he can fulfil the stereotype of a shallow, self-absorbed man, in love with his own celebrity. Sirius's good looks are part of his self-confident/arrogant persona, Cedric's good looks make him popular, which is then contrasted with Harry becoming unpopular (and, on top of that, Cedric gets the girl). Tom Riddle uses his attractive features to charm valuable objects from gullible and receptive clients (such as Hepzibah Smith). In short, good looks seem to have a function beyond just giving us a general description of a character's appearance.

Why does Grindelwald need to be so attractive? His ideas could have been as 'inflaming' regardless of his looks. Somewhere here is where I was wondering about what other feelings this very charismatic youth might have stirred in the young Albus Dumbledore. Why didn't Albus want to see him for what he was, even though he had sensed another side to Grindelwald? Why did it take poor Ariana's death for him to face the ugly truth, and as you put it, she becomes 'the finding point of his love'? Was it really just that he didn't want anything to interfere with his dream, or was it that he didn't want to admit that there was an ugly side to this man he was so absorbed by. The intensity of their friendship suggests (to me at least) a passion beyond shared ideas and the elation of meeting an intellectual equal.

Again, I agree that it is possible to read the passages about Grindelwald without thinking it was anything other than a platonic, albeit very intense, friendship. However, it is definitely also possible to read the same passages, without knowing anything about Jo Rowling's comments regarding Dumbledore's sexuality, and draw the conclusion that the feelings shared by these two had an erotic and physical component.


This post has been edited by Kalin: Aug 15 2009, 06:45 PM
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
JohannMdlAmerica
post Aug 17 2009, 06:42 PM
Post #37
Claw-Clipping Kneazles at the Magical Menegerie


***

Posts: 2,452
Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007
Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse


















QUOTE(Kalin @ Aug 15 2009, 06:43 PM) *
Again, I agree that it is possible to read the passages about Grindelwald without thinking it was anything other than a platonic, albeit very intense, friendship. However, it is definitely also possible to read the same passages, without knowing anything about Jo Rowling's comments regarding Dumbledore's sexuality, and draw the conclusion that the feelings shared by these two had an erotic and physical component.

I can actually live with that. It leaves the final interpretation of the writing to exactly one person: The reader. That's my major argument with the entire "DD is gay" hoopla: It takes responsibility for the writing away from the Body of Work. Instead, the author (in this case JKR) is attempting to assert a conclusion she was not able to explicity develop in the series.

The reader, and no one else, should have the final authority to interpret the text when the text itself does not advance the plot or the theme smile.gif


--------------------
The last enemy to be destroyed is death--
First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26
The epitaph of James and Lily Potter
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
George Weasley...
post Aug 18 2009, 10:38 AM
Post #38
Butterbeer Connoisseur


***

Posts: 1,502
Joined: 4:37pm February 6, 2007
Location: The Room of Requirement




QUOTE
I feel that this physical aspect of their relationship is hinted at in the description of Grindelwald. When we meet him he is this wild, untamed beautiful (on the surface at least) being. When I read that, I wondered what the reason behind this could be.


But isn't the description of GG from HP POV? The first time we hear of him it's Harry describing how he looks, not DD. To say the physical aspect of their relationship is related to how he looks isn't a hand in hand theory being that it's Harry who is describing him. If we were going by how someone views GG appearance one could conclude that Harry is gay by using that logic. Does DD ever describe how GG looks? I don't recall him doing that. I remember them talking about their lust for power, but that's about it.


--------------------

My beautiful Harry/Ginny avatar is compliments of jilly_wood.
My awesome Weasley avatars are courtesy of theonlysong.
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
Robbie Rowe
post Aug 18 2009, 12:16 PM
Post #39
Perusing the Magical Menagerie


*

Posts: 97
Joined: 1:14pm February 2, 2009




<sigh> Why does everyone have to be sorted into neat little happily ever after couples in these tales of fantasy??? Be nice if they could just be happily alone or sadly alone. Draco Malfoy should not have gotten married and was too hasty a decision by my judgement on J.K.'s part. But anyway, onto what I think of this stuff:

Albus Dumbledore, to me, is not in fact heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual. Being either one of those sexualities does not affect my reading of the 7 HP books or 6 HP films. He is the same character to me as he has always been. I am not saying that is good or bad. It is what it is: the truth. I do not see the need for fantasy characters to be married, or to have feelings of ove or lust for others or to act upon them. I sort of feel like Harry and Ron might have made a good married couple or a good couple that were dating during the schooldays.

P.S. Some characters, to me, are loners, or outsiders. For example, Draco Malfoy. Another example: Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy as well as Kingdom Hearts. Certain charcters do not belong in a relationship I feel. A friendship or a rivalry? huh.gif Definitly, maybe. biggrin.gif

Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
Kalin
post Aug 19 2009, 03:27 AM
Post #40
Cauldron Bottom Measurer


**

Posts: 134
Joined: 12:32am February 26, 2009




QUOTE(George Weasley's Girlfriend @ Aug 19 2009, 01:08 AM) *
QUOTE
I feel that this physical aspect of their relationship is hinted at in the description of Grindelwald. When we meet him he is this wild, untamed beautiful (on the surface at least) being. When I read that, I wondered what the reason behind this could be.


But isn't the description of GG from HP POV? The first time we hear of him it's Harry describing how he looks, not DD. To say the physical aspect of their relationship is related to how he looks isn't a hand in hand theory being that it's Harry who is describing him. If we were going by how someone views GG appearance one could conclude that Harry is gay by using that logic. Does DD ever describe how GG looks? I don't recall him doing that. I remember them talking about their lust for power, but that's about it.



You misunderstand me, I was wondering why Jo Rowling felt the need to describe Grindelwald that way (it matters less whose eyes we view him through, I never claimed that we were viewing him from Dumbledore's POV). When other characters have been described as good looking or attractive it has been for a reason and there was just something in the description of Grindelwald (as well as how their short infatuation was described by others, like Bathilda and Aberforth) that made me sense more than friendship between the two young men. I have never tried to impose my view on anyone, I just say it as I see it and I see my interpretation as perfectly valid, albeit not the only acceptable one.

And Robbie Rowe: It is not about wanting to pair Dumbledore with anyone (if I did I would have him happy rather than heartbroken), it's about reacting to what I read.
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  « < 2 3 4
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Sorting for Half-Blood Prince is open! Click here to join!
Coming Up:
Join the chat! Saturday 1-3pm Of Power, Magic, and Government
Come right in to the Shrieking Shack Arcade!
Shopping at the Cauldron Shop supports this forum!
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here