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Was Grindenwald Really A Nazi?
Gellert_Grindenw...
post Jul 28 2007, 01:13 PM
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J.K. Rowling has hinted in an interview that the duel between Grindenwald and Dumbledore in 1945 was connected to the end of World War II.

But what could be the nature of the connection between Grindenwald and Adolf Hitler?

Many Slavic wizards who studied in Durmstrang also appear to be committed to Grindenwald's ideals despite the fact that Hitler disliked Slavs. (Antonin Dolohov, for example) Grindenwald also killed Viktor Krum's grandparents although Bulgaria was an Axis nation during the war.

So why would Grindenwald support Muggle Adolf Hitler? Would it be possible that there are no pure-blooded Jewish wizards? Grindenwald would have certainly taken the side of a pure-blooded Jewish wizard against Muggles.

Also, English pure-blood fanatics and later Death Eaters appear to be devoid of racial prejudice. Even the aristocratic and Aryan Draco Malfoy has a black pure-blood friend, Blaise Zabini, who calls Ginny Weasley "a filthy little blood-traitor" although he finds her pretty.
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Jmacq1
post Aug 15 2007, 12:48 PM
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I think any support Grindenwald may have given Hitler would have been a matter of convenience.

In other words, for several years the Nazis had been the biggest dog on the block. If you're planning on taking over the Muggle world, you'd want to insinuate yourself among the most powerful group of muggles you could find.

Or perhaps an even more frightening thought: Grindenwald may have been pulling Adolf's strings as part of his master plan to take over the world. Though in all truth, I doubt Ms. Rowling would ever excuse or mitigate Hitler's behavior with an explanation like that. In any case, I have a feeling that while Grindenwald may have been involved with the Nazis in some form or another, it ultimately wasn't that deep of a connection, and certainly wasn't strictly an ideological one (they both had "master race" ideas, but they weren't exactly compatible views of who that "master race" was).


This post has been edited by Jmacq1: Aug 15 2007, 12:51 PM
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mankytoes
post Aug 16 2007, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE(Gellert_Grindenwald @ Jul 28 2007, 07:13 PM) [snapback]1357691[/snapback]

J.K. Rowling has hinted in an interview that the duel between Grindenwald and Dumbledore in 1945 was connected to the end of World War II.

But what could be the nature of the connection between Grindenwald and Adolf Hitler?

Many Slavic wizards who studied in Durmstrang also appear to be committed to Grindenwald's ideals despite the fact that Hitler disliked Slavs. (Antonin Dolohov, for example) Grindenwald also killed Viktor Krum's grandparents although Bulgaria was an Axis nation during the war.

So why would Grindenwald support Muggle Adolf Hitler? Would it be possible that there are no pure-blooded Jewish wizards? Grindenwald would have certainly taken the side of a pure-blooded Jewish wizard against Muggles.

Also, English pure-blood fanatics and later Death Eaters appear to be devoid of racial prejudice. Even the aristocratic and Aryan Draco Malfoy has a black pure-blood friend, Blaise Zabini, who calls Ginny Weasley "a filthy little blood-traitor" although he finds her pretty.


Honestly? I think you've thought more about it than JK Rowling.

Jmacq1 I think has it right. Most facists have been willing to contradict their beliefs to help their cause. Don't forget Hitler and Stalin, who were pretty opposed, signed a treaty together. I belief that Grindlewald and Hitler were, in the potterverse, seperate tyrants with seperate ideals who worked, to an extent, together.

Racial prejudice is conspicuious in its absense in the Potter books. I cannot think of a single hint of Dean, Blaise, Padma, Parvati, Kingsley or Anglelina facing any prejedice based on their race.

However, correct me if i'm wrong, there are no ethnic death eaters?


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Danny266
post Aug 16 2007, 06:08 PM
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There are foreign Death Eaters, and black slytherins.
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Chocolatl
post Aug 16 2007, 06:41 PM
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Racial prejudice is not absent in the Harry Potter books, it merely has taken on a different form.

In these books, racial prejudice is directed against Muggles (and by Muggles against wizards, for that matter). It's a way of looking at racial prejudice in a different light; I'm quite surprised that so many people don't see it.


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Oryx
post Aug 16 2007, 09:11 PM
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If you want to give Grindelwald a role in WWII, think of those Nazis with interest in the occult. Perhaps Grindelwald was promising to help them with real magical powers. As for Hitler and the Slavs - many of those who carried out the extermination of the Jews were Slavs. Ukrainian guards were notorious for their cruelty.
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mankytoes
post Aug 18 2007, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE(Danny266 @ Aug 17 2007, 12:08 AM) *
There are foreign Death Eaters, and black slytherins.


But death eaters and Slytherins aren't the same. I'm wondering whether Voldemort had at least some racial predjudices, not nationalist.

QUOTE(Chocolatl @ Aug 17 2007, 12:41 AM) *
Racial prejudice is not absent in the Harry Potter books, it merely has taken on a different form.

In these books, racial prejudice is directed against Muggles (and by Muggles against wizards, for that matter). It's a way of looking at racial prejudice in a different light; I'm quite surprised that so many people don't see it.


Well its looking at prejudice, but as two muggles can have a wizard child, and vice verca, I don't see muggles as a seperate race.


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“I have come here” began Voldemort, his thin lips showing signs of the smallest smirk “to recruit. You” he said, pointing his wand at James “shall join me. You” he suddenly turned to Lily “shall flee.
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Eleonore
post Aug 18 2007, 07:54 AM
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I think the Grindelwald-Hitler connection is a mere symbolic one:

At the same time as Hitler tried to overpower the world and started a genozide against the Jews in real history, Grindelwald tried to gain power in JKR's wizarding world. And he thought Muggles were worthless.


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Blibbering Humdi...
post Aug 18 2007, 08:58 AM
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I always thought that Grindelwald imperiused Adolf Hitler, so he was the real person behind WWII. Maybe his plan was to slowly exterminate all Muggles, and he started with a specific population.


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post Aug 18 2007, 09:46 AM
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I've always wondered what the connection was between Grindelwald and the end of WWII and I actually thought that JK would address the issue in DH. (Maybe it will be in her encyclopedia?)

I agree with Oryx that Grindelwald probably promised them some magic if they (or Hitler) in turn helped him out.


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asphyxia
post Aug 26 2007, 02:30 AM
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Many Slavic wizards who studied in Durmstrang also appear to be committed to Grindenwald's ideals despite the fact that Hitler disliked Slavs. (Antonin Dolohov, for example)

Though it may sound strange, I've heard that there's quite a Neo-Nazi scene in Russia. They even have a party: the Russian National Socialist party [real creative name, guys.. 9_9] Remember that whole thing about the execution of migrant workers on videotape a few weeks ago?


Grindenwald also killed Viktor Krum's grandparents although Bulgaria was an Axis nation during the war.

Maybe Viktor Krum's grandparents were part of a resistance movement.


But like Eleonore said above me, I've always imagined that the connection was more of a symbolic one.
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hagridlurveshapp...
post Aug 26 2007, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE(asphyxia @ Aug 26 2007, 08:30 AM) *
Many Slavic wizards who studied in Durmstrang also appear to be committed to Grindenwald's ideals despite the fact that Hitler disliked Slavs. (Antonin Dolohov, for example)

Though it may sound strange, I've heard that there's quite a Neo-Nazi scene in Russia. They even have a party: the Russian National Socialist party [real creative name, guys.. 9_9] Remember that whole thing about the execution of migrant workers on videotape a few weeks ago?


Grindenwald also killed Viktor Krum's grandparents although Bulgaria was an Axis nation during the war.

Maybe Viktor Krum's grandparents were part of a resistance movement.


But like Eleonore said above me, I've always imagined that the connection was more of a symbolic one.


Right, I'm going to do some deduction based on what we know and what can logically be deduced about wizards and Nazis. Some of this I warn you will 'reach' a little!

JKR said she liked the idea, forgive if its not the exact phrasing, she said that she 'liked the idea that at the same time conflict was raging in the muggle world, it was also raging in the wizarding world' or words to that effect. So in other words, a parallel conflict, an example of simultaneity or whatever you call it!

However, against this is the fact that we know at least the British government at the highet level has always been aware of wizards (so probably the German one too).

Churchill then, knew that the magica; world existed, probably from the first night he spent in his office. Someone with as dominant a personality and pragmatic outlook as Churchill, his country in desperate circumstances at the time he came to power (the darkest days of the war when the Nazis were closest to victory) imagine his reaction when the minister for magic popped out of his fireplace! He would have seen it as a gift from God. He would have, very forcefully, tried to recruit them to the British cause instantly.

This may have been easier than it sounded if the then Magical Minister may well have known that Grindelwald was already working with the Nazis, their fascination with the occult is common knowledge, and Grindelwald intended to bring the Wizards out of hiding, so the statute of secrecy meant nothing to him.

If Hitler knew about Grindelwald, he would have seen him as a kindred spirit (GW was an essentially fascist ideologist) and more importantly as a powerful ally. Grindelwald would have played down the fact that he wanted to subjugate all muggles, blond haired or not, and aidied the Germans with the intention of imperiusing Herr Hitler once the messy business of WW2 was over with, as a conflict that big would undoubtedly interefere with his own plans for continental Europe. Hitler, as a dictator in total command of Europe and the British Isles, would have done Grindelwald's job for him! With JUST ONE IMPERIUS CURSE, GRINDELWALD WOULD HAVE BECOME MASTER OF EUROPE. If such a relationship existed, The Ministry would have no choice but to become involved in WW2 IMMEDIATELY, if only by recruiting a small task force (e.g. Dumbledore, a few Ministry aurors, some Muggle commandos and a liaison officer to go in and take out Grindelwald).

This theory would tie in with the WOMBAT question about a crack force of wizards and muggles helping bring about the end of the war. And the timing of Grindelwald's and Dumbeldore's duel being at the same point as the invasion of Germany IS TOO PERFECT FOR COINCIDENCE.

The thing about WW2 is that no matter who tried to stay out, The Americans, The Russians, EVERYONE got sucked in. A conflict this big was bound to involve the wizarding world at some point if world leaders knew about them and rogue elements (Grindelwald) were at large.

So, directly via the Wombat's and Dumbledore'd chocolate frog card, and indirectly via the process we see in The Other Minister (HBP chapter 1) JKR has if not suggested, insinuated that wizards may have been involved in WW2. Its kind of hard to see how they wouldn't be, if one appeared in Churchill's office.

Will this backstory appear in portions of the HP encyclopaedia relating to Dumbeldore? Absolutely not. Jo will not want to open THAT can of worms, but she has put in enough information for people like me to deduce the possibilities!


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lupinwandcaster
post Sep 10 2007, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE(hagridlurveshappyhour @ Aug 26 2007, 05:44 AM) *
QUOTE(asphyxia @ Aug 26 2007, 08:30 AM) *
Many Slavic wizards who studied in Durmstrang also appear to be committed to Grindenwald's ideals despite the fact that Hitler disliked Slavs. (Antonin Dolohov, for example)

Though it may sound strange, I've heard that there's quite a Neo-Nazi scene in Russia. They even have a party: the Russian National Socialist party [real creative name, guys.. 9_9] Remember that whole thing about the execution of migrant workers on videotape a few weeks ago?


Grindenwald also killed Viktor Krum's grandparents although Bulgaria was an Axis nation during the war.

Maybe Viktor Krum's grandparents were part of a resistance movement.


But like Eleonore said above me, I've always imagined that the connection was more of a symbolic one.


Right, I'm going to do some deduction based on what we know and what can logically be deduced about wizards and Nazis. Some of this I warn you will 'reach' a little!

JKR said she liked the idea, forgive if its not the exact phrasing, she said that she 'liked the idea that at the same time conflict was raging in the muggle world, it was also raging in the wizarding world' or words to that effect. So in other words, a parallel conflict, an example of simultaneity or whatever you call it!

However, against this is the fact that we know at least the British government at the highet level has always been aware of wizards (so probably the German one too).

Churchill then, knew that the magica; world existed, probably from the first night he spent in his office. Someone with as dominant a personality and pragmatic outlook as Churchill, his country in desperate circumstances at the time he came to power (the darkest days of the war when the Nazis were closest to victory) imagine his reaction when the minister for magic popped out of his fireplace! He would have seen it as a gift from God. He would have, very forcefully, tried to recruit them to the British cause instantly.

This may have been easier than it sounded if the then Magical Minister may well have known that Grindelwald was already working with the Nazis, their fascination with the occult is common knowledge, and Grindelwald intended to bring the Wizards out of hiding, so the statute of secrecy meant nothing to him.

If Hitler knew about Grindelwald, he would have seen him as a kindred spirit (GW was an essentially fascist ideologist) and more importantly as a powerful ally. Grindelwald would have played down the fact that he wanted to subjugate all muggles, blond haired or not, and aidied the Germans with the intention of imperiusing Herr Hitler once the messy business of WW2 was over with, as a conflict that big would undoubtedly interefere with his own plans for continental Europe. Hitler, as a dictator in total command of Europe and the British Isles, would have done Grindelwald's job for him! With JUST ONE IMPERIUS CURSE, GRINDELWALD WOULD HAVE BECOME MASTER OF EUROPE. If such a relationship existed, The Ministry would have no choice but to become involved in WW2 IMMEDIATELY, if only by recruiting a small task force (e.g. Dumbledore, a few Ministry aurors, some Muggle commandos and a liaison officer to go in and take out Grindelwald).

This theory would tie in with the WOMBAT question about a crack force of wizards and muggles helping bring about the end of the war. And the timing of Grindelwald's and Dumbeldore's duel being at the same point as the invasion of Germany IS TOO PERFECT FOR COINCIDENCE.

The thing about WW2 is that no matter who tried to stay out, The Americans, The Russians, EVERYONE got sucked in. A conflict this big was bound to involve the wizarding world at some point if world leaders knew about them and rogue elements (Grindelwald) were at large.

So, directly via the Wombat's and Dumbledore'd chocolate frog card, and indirectly via the process we see in The Other Minister (HBP chapter 1) JKR has if not suggested, insinuated that wizards may have been involved in WW2. Its kind of hard to see how they wouldn't be, if one appeared in Churchill's office.

Will this backstory appear in portions of the HP encyclopaedia relating to Dumbeldore? Absolutely not. Jo will not want to open THAT can of worms, but she has put in enough information for people like me to deduce the possibilities!


I like the way you think. I recently did a report on Winston Churchill recently and you have him spot on. He tried to get everyone to fight the Nazis, even communists like Stalin whom he dispised. One of my favorite lines Churchill said was "If Hitler invaded Hell I would at least make a favorable refrence to him in the House of Commons." That really sums up how much the Nazis were hated. I like to think that the wizards tried to help in WWII but we will never know...


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post Sep 11 2007, 07:14 PM
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Well the place named Grindelwald is where the composer Wagner lived, and he and his virulently anti-semitic family were good friends and great supporters of Adolph Hitler's. I just read a story referencing that relationship in the Economist, here's the link.


I think Grindelwald may be mostly symbolic, not of Hitler himself but rather of everyone around him. Adolph Hitler behaved so strangely and he had that ability to hypnotise large crowds of people that was described as almost magical. You know, you can almost imagine someone hovering in the background performing charms and weaving enchantments for the aimless, planless, artist/political dissident Hitler was, partially for entertainment value, partly to up-end the world for the wizard's own ends. Hitler went from zero to hero in no time flat and achieved "miraculous" things economically as well as militarily. Just as fast as they came together though, they fell apart. He was mercurial of temperament too, and at the end when the German people turned out to not be the "Master Race" he thought they should be, he turned on them and tried to obliterate them. He behaved so oddly, almost as though imperiused by a madman. I think Voldemort played the part of Hitler better than Grindelwald did, and just as Hitler tried to destroy the German nation at the end, Voldemort did kill Grindelwald in his cell at the end as Grindelwald tried to talk some sense into him.


This post has been edited by Smullyan_for_DD: Sep 12 2007, 04:33 AM


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