"Half Blood, Half Prince", An essay by Towerdweller |
Apr 29 2006, 12:28 PM
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#131
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 11,086 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I'm going to jump back into the fray here, very cautiously. I agree with mlwl when she says:
QUOTE I'm unsure how we can argue that Snape is not "directly responsible" for Dumbledore's death, unless you (collective "you," here) are a member of the Dumbledore lives camp. Regardless of the circumstances, as Towerdweller points out, Snape does cast the AK. You may not think he is culpable for doing so, but he is responsible. However, that is a different question, really. No matter the extenuating circumstances on the Tower, if indeed there are any, it was Snape who said, "Avada Kedavra!" and killed Dumbledore. No, I'm not in the Dumbledore Is Alive camp. It doesn't matter who or what drove him to do it--the point is, he did it. Dumbledore was wandless and chose not to fight, and Snape killed him anyway. That's murder, pure and simple, and he cannot claim self-defense. Not even the existing Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa can excuse him from those actions. I find it interesting that JKR herself talks about Snape and his culpability. She says that because Snape has been loved, he is more culpable than Voldemort for his actions. When the author of the books says that, we have to listen. You may not agree with her, but it's her story, and what she says goes. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
Apr 29 2006, 01:16 PM
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#132
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Missus Lupin and Mistress Crouch![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 5,269 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Your essay was well-researched, filled with canon facts and your opinion is shared by many. I also think you have done a sterling effort in answering questions and queries in this thread in such a fabulous manner. QUOTE I find it interesting that JKR herself talks about Snape and his culpability. She says that because Snape has been loved, he is more culpable than Voldemort for his actions. When the author of the books says that, we have to listen. You may not agree with her, but it's her story, and what she says goes. Enough said! |
Apr 29 2006, 01:56 PM
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#133
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Herding Silver Does in the Forest of Dean![]() Posts: 1,660 Joined: 11:06am July 24, 2005 Location: Back o' the Moon |
QUOTE mlwl: Well, but likewise... aren't you attempting to say that he is innocent, regardless of any evidence presented to the contrary? This is why I love his character- I can re-read these books a hundred times, and the truth is that I don't think I'll ever know who Snape truly is until JKR gives us her final statement in book seven. And even then, I'm just really hoping that we get that final answer! I am saying that I'd like to wait until I have all the facts before I throw away the key on Snape. Its like a jury deciding before all the evidence has been presented. I think there's something more. -------------------- ![]() Avatar by Aislinn "Run mad as often as you chuse; but do not faint." Love and Friendship, J. Austen |
Apr 30 2006, 06:38 PM
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#134
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron![]() ![]() Posts: 408 Joined: 3:22pm August 10, 2005 Location: Hermione's handbag ![]() |
As I understand it, the puropse of this Scribblus fourm is to discuss the essays themselves, so I will restrict myself to that and not argue the Snape's loyality issue, there are enough threads on that without adding another one for every essay on the subject. However, for the benefit of those who would like to know where I am coming form, I think Snape is still loyal to the Order of the Phoenix.
Towerdweller has done an excellent job in presenting the case for the Snape-is-evil camp, however I am a littlle confused about the stated purpose for writing Half Blood, Half Prince. QUOTE(towerdweller @ Apr 4 2006, 10:33 PM) [snapback]770680[/snapback] When I wrote “Half Blood, Half Prince,” my purpose was to lay out the facts from the books and evaluate the evidence afresh before drawing my own conclusions. I sincerely wanted to find out for myself if there was sufficient evidence to support a case that Snape is good. I did not write the essay to persuade anyone that Snape is evil, though that was my personal conclusion after reviewing the evidence. That being the intent: I would have liked to have seen a little more on his reasons for rejecting the evidence cited by those who disagree.It wasn't until this discussion began, after the essay was posted, that we found out that the author thought that Dumbledore might have been pleading for his life on the astronomy tower, or that he thought that the argument that Hagrid partially overheard between Snape and Dumbledore did not contain enough information to be of any value. I disagree with the last part. We know that the argument was about some planned course of action that Snape had previously agreed to and was then having second thoughts about, we just don't know what that course of action was. The question I would have liked to have seen addressed is: why have the argument at all? If Snape was a loyal Death Eater, shouldn't he have continued with what his original plan would have been; pretend to agree with what Dumbledore wanted him to do and double cross him at the appropriate moment? As Snape pointed out to Bellatrix, at Spinner's End, Voldemort had already ask all of her questions and if he had not been satisfied by the answers Snape would not have lived to attend that meeting. Therefore, that meeting did little more then to inform us of Voldemort's reasons for trusting Snape other than to inform us of the unbreakable vow. I would have liked to have seen a little less of a review of what those reasons were and a little more of a comparison with Dumbledore's reasons for trusting him. Do we now think that we know why Dumbledore trusted Snape? There is a strong possibility that Dumbledore was merely reacting to Harry's discovery of who passed the information to Voldemort that made targets of himself and his parents; attempting to soften the fury that Harry felt as a result of that knowledge. If that was the aggregate of Dumbledore's reason for his unwavering trust in Snape, then I would like to know why he kept is secret for so long. Was it because if others knew the reason for that trust, they wouldn't share it? I have a lot of respect for Dumbledore, for among other reasons, he can admit his mistakes and can warn people that his opinions can be a wrong as Humphery Belcher's who believed the time was ripe for a cheese cauldren; however, if it turns out that Dumbledore kept his reasons for trusting Snape secret in order to manipulate others into trusting him, I will lose all respect for him. -------------------- Now, if you will excuse me, I have better things to do than to listen to adolesent agonizing
- Phineas Nigellus |
May 2 2006, 12:15 AM
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#135
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Gringott's Cart Axle Greaser![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 2,773 Joined: 4:37pm September 28, 2005 Location: In my tower, dwelling on ... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Professor_Nigellus raises some interesting questions.
QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Apr 30 2006, 05:38 PM) [snapback]806826[/snapback] We know that the argument was about some planned course of action that Snape had previously agreed to and was then having second thoughts about, we just don't know what that course of action was. The question I would have liked to have seen addressed is: why have the argument at all? If Snape was a loyal Death Eater, shouldn't he have continued with what his original plan would have been; pretend to agree with what Dumbledore wanted him to do and double cross him at the appropriate moment? Pretending to agree only gets a spy/double agent so far. If Snape was supposed to take action and hasn’t, that would be cause for a discussion, which in this case seems to have lead to an argument.The fact is the argument between DD and Snape could have been about a lot of things. (Head of House duties, DADA teaching responsibilities, castle security assignments, etc.) In my essay, I was trying to stick with known facts and draw conclusions based on them. The fact is we don’t know what the argument was about. However, I don’t believe it was an argument over a plot between Snape and DD for the former to kill the latter; it seems out of character for DD to agree to such an extreme and outlandish plan. What we do know is that Hagrid slips and mentions the argument after Ron has just been poisoned. I think the context is important as it points to security at the school and the attempted murders. Hagrid’s account of the angry exchange of words is sketchy and leads Harry to wonder: QUOTE So Dumbledore had argued with Snape. In spite of all he had told Harry, in spite of his insistence that he trusted Snape completely, he had lost his temper with him . . . . He did not think that Snape had tried hard enough to investigate the Slytherines . . . or, perhaps, to investigate a single Slytherine: Malfoy? (HBP, pg. 407) It makes sense that having made the Unbreakable Vow, Snape wouldn’t want to interfere with Draco’s efforts—if it meant that Draco might not succeed with his task.QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Apr 30 2006, 05:38 PM) [snapback]806826[/snapback] As Snape pointed out to Bellatrix, at Spinner's End, Voldemort had already ask all of her questions and if he had not been satisfied by the answers Snape would not have lived to attend that meeting. Therefore, that meeting did little more then to inform us of Voldemort's reasons for trusting Snape other than to inform us of the unbreakable vow. I would have liked to have seen a little less of a review of what those reasons were and a little more of a comparison with Dumbledore's reasons for trusting him. The case I tried to make in my paper is that DD didn’t trust Snape utterly. DD had to give him a second chance and trusted him with some things, but I don’t believe that DD’s trust was blind or absolute. QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Apr 30 2006, 05:38 PM) [snapback]806826[/snapback] Do we now think that we know why Dumbledore trusted Snape? There is a strong possibility that Dumbledore was merely reacting to Harry's discovery of who passed the information to Voldemort that made targets of himself and his parents; attempting to soften the fury that Harry felt as a result of that knowledge. I’ve struggled with the conclusions that Harry draws about the reasons why DD trusted Snape. Somehow, I don’t think that Harry got it completely right; he certainly didn’t get a complete answer from DD:QUOTE . . . how can you be sure that Snape’s on our side?” [asked Harry.] There’s got to be more that DD didn’t say. We never learned the full extent of the testimony that DD gave to the Ministry of Magic regarding Snape either. Perhaps there is a record of that somewhere.Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, “I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.” (HBP, pg. 549) QUOTE(Professor_Nigellus @ Apr 30 2006, 05:38 PM) [snapback]806826[/snapback] If that was the aggregate of Dumbledore's reason for his unwavering trust in Snape, then I would like to know why he kept is secret for so long. Was it because if others knew the reason for that trust, they wouldn't share it? I have a lot of respect for Dumbledore, for among other reasons, he can admit his mistakes and can warn people that his opinions can be a wrong as Humphery Belcher's who believed the time was ripe for a cheese cauldren; however, if it turns out that Dumbledore kept his reasons for trusting Snape secret in order to manipulate others into trusting him, I will lose all respect for him. Trust and faith are often hard (and sometimes impossible) to explain. They aren’t always rational either. DD may have been convinced himself, but could have known his reasons wouldn’t sound as plausible for others. Nonetheless, to truly give Snape a second chance, DD had to make a leap of faith and provide an environment where Snape could prove through his works that he had changed. In this way I see DD acting as more of a pastor or priest than an intellectual Headmaster.
-------------------- “Wisdom is a flower from which the bee its honey makes and the spider poison, each according to its own nature.” (By an unknown adept) Proud Supporter of the "Rotfang Conspiracy." |




Apr 29 2006, 12:28 PM












