Harry and Beowulf, Why is Harry the anti-Beowulf? |
 May 29 2009, 10:16 PM
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Buying a Half-Kneazle  Posts: 515 Joined: 7:56pm December 28, 2008 Location: Quidditch Pitch, team practice    |
Recently I read the epic tale of Beowulf where the major character Beowulf lives as a god among his people. He is their hero and savior. His life is devoted to protect the people, which causes him to never be able to be part of a city. He must always live on the outside.
This theme is common in other places, such as Froto not living in the shire at the end. He can no longer within the society. Also, Batman in the new movies is a perfect example too. He is a hero, whose life is devoted to the people. However, he is not accepted by his society. He lives on the outskirts. In Dark Knight, Rachel tells batman that she cannot live him because he will always be needed. Batman can never just stop and settle down. Harry Potter is a hero, who gives up his life for everyone else. However, he is not like the characters listed above. He is different. He is able to live within the society. He is able to settle down and be the average joe in the wizarding world. My question is why Harry is like this. Why can Harry be the hero that you could have over for dinner? Why is Harry able to save the world, and then go back to his four-poster bed? Many characters in movies and literature cannot do this. -------------------- "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry,
but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" |
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Jun 2 2009, 05:47 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 168 Joined: 6:47am April 30, 2009 Location: Gandalf's Chin |
Actually, throughout the series Harry is the Outsider, and The Wounded Hero. Like Frodo, Harry's scar separates him and sets him apart from others. Though Batman's scars are on the inside, he too fulfills the mythic archetype of the Wounded Hero. What sets these mythic characters apart is the knowledge and pain they are burdened with which is beyond the understanding of most mortals.
The main difference with Harry though, is that Rowling wrote him with a Humanist spin on the traditional archetype. He is better able to fit back into the "normal world" because he is ultimately more rooted and grounded. He has people who have shared some of his burdens along the way (Ron and Hermione). He knows that it could have been Neville in his position. He has learned that many others had similar burdens (Lupin, Mad Eye, Bill, and even Dumbledore). And he disowns deification. All this adds up to someone who has plenty of people to relate to, thus making it easier for Harry to re-integrate into society. -------------------- "It is like a finger pointing at the moon. don't pay attention to the finger or you will miss all that Heavenly Glory" -- Bruce Lee
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Jun 2 2009, 07:21 AM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 37 Joined: 8:29am August 28, 2007 Location: Stealing Lupin from Grimmauld Place |
I understnad what you're saying Gandalf's Beard,
But in the same I don't think he's as seperated as you say. I think he has the capacity to be the outsider but Jo writes it in such a way that he doesn't want that and he doesn't get it. He's treated differently by alot of people at first, but there are other who treat him no different to anyone else. The Dursleys for example. I think what stops harry from being like Batman, Beowulf or whoever, is the fact that he fits so well into his world. In the Muggle world he is an outsider, but in the Wizarding world he is jsut as involved as everyone else. I think it's also becuase he's a child. He's learning jsut like everyone else, he's at the saem level as them all...yeah... His fame i don't think makes him an outsider. -------------------- Albus Dumbledore: "Soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy."
Tonks and Lupin, unleashing mutli-coloured werewolf puppies on the world one day at a time! Oh! Voldy, if Draco says no, can I babysit them? Please!!! |
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Jun 6 2009, 01:29 PM
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 921 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic  |
I think my opinion on this is quite different than the first two responses to the question posed by the thread opener.
I would characterize Harry not as a Beowulf type at all, but more as an accidental hero. He is not the most brilliant wizard, nor the most powerful, IMO. I think he just happened to be hand-picked by fate (Voldemort actually) and given certain powers accidentally because of his fate (his 'love' protection only came because of Voldemort attacking his mother, and her defending Harry with her life, and his ability to be invulnerable to Voldemort is only because Voldemort accidentally conferred powers onto Harry when he tried to kill him). Otherwise, I personally get the impression that Harry might have lived and died as a reasonably talented wizard, like James and Lily were, who just lived his live in a fairly normal wizarding way. I think it was circumstance, not innate heroic qualities that make Harry both famous and powerful. Harry's ability to love is very unique, but love is not a typical 'heroic' quality. And in most other ways, Harry just isn't a 'heroic' type. He was someone who had the personal capacity and character to live up to one of the greatest tests of a wizard, but it was fate that put him there. So I guess I don't really see him at all in the same light as an archetypal hero in the mold of a Beowulf or Batman type character. If he is able to be a hero and then go back to his 'normal' wizard life, it is more because he was never the demi-God hero in the first place. This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Jun 6 2009, 01:33 PM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Jun 6 2009, 02:53 PM
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Monster Book Stacker Posts: 389 Joined: 3:23pm November 19, 2008 Location: tickling the pear to get into the hogwarts kitchens |
well i think harry isnt an outsider because his purpose wasn't to save the world from anything that came its way it was only to protect everyone from Voldemort and now Voldemort is gone so his job is done and because he is so grounded he is abled to settle down and lead a normal life but is still recognized by the wizarding community as the boy who saved everyone.
--------------------  "After all this time?" "Always" |
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Jun 6 2009, 03:52 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 100 Joined: 10:20am March 6, 2008 Location: Alabama |
Rowling, of course, summed up on her (website? interview? I saw it posted on LC, but it's been a while)... anyway, she said his heroism involves becoming an "average joe." He is able to recover from fighting a war and become normal. That involves a heroism all on its own.
As for Beowulf and Frodo... Harry's not a traditional outsider hero. He is on the outside, but not the the point that he becomes less "human," like Frodo and Beowulf and Hercules and any of the other epic heroes throughout literary history. Harry is more like... well, I'd like to compare him more to Spider-man, my other favorite hero. Peter Parker does live apart from everyone else: he has to, to be Spider-man and keep his identity secret. He has power that he must use to protect people, but that means he often has to alienate himself from people he loves. In the meantime, he does have a massive support structure of family and friends who help him and guide him. In the end, he always knows that he can go home to Aunt May or MJ (ignoring the recent years in comic continuity). Likewise, Harry is separate but a part of a greater whole. He had to face Voldemort by himself in the end, but he still keeps the support structure. I think the difference is that modern readers want the hero to be human, and humans need people who love them. That's why I'm not sure how much momentum the new Batman movies will have: Bruce Wayne has no support structure (other than Cockney Alfred). He's just not human enough. -------------------- Ron and angelcakes: Fans of bacon sandwiches since 1991.
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Jun 7 2009, 12:14 PM
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 921 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic |
QUOTE(angelcakes @ Jun 6 2009, 03:52 PM)  As for Beowulf and Frodo... Harry's not a traditional outsider hero. He is on the outside, but not the the point that he becomes less "human," like Frodo and Beowulf and Hercules and any of the other epic heroes throughout literary history. Harry is more like... well, I'd like to compare him more to Spider-man, my other favorite hero. I don't think I agree about Frodo. I find Frodo to be the same sort of 'accidental hero' as Harry. I think Frodo would have just lived out his life happily in the Shire if the ring hadn't been passed to him. I actually wouldn't call Frodo an 'outsider' either as a personality or character type. I think that his 'outsider' status was the result of his trials and experience in the world. I think it was Tolkien's attempt to show that some people can never recover from 'wounds' they receive in life...and Frodo was one of those (and I think it was an indirect reference to Tolkien's experiences in World War I and with both the physical and emotional 'wounds' from the war). But the classic 'outsider' character is more someone who is and always will be 'outside' the norms of society. In the Tolkien books, I would say Aragorn/Strider is more of the outsider type. I agree a bit with Spider-man. However, I don't know enough about how Spider-man became the 'superhero' that he became. Wasn't it because he wanted to 'save the world'? I think this is where I would see a difference between Spider-man and Harry and Frodo. I think that neither Frodo or Harry chose their fate, they just chose to be heroic when confronted with their fate. Spider-man wanted to be a hero - it was a goal - if I am remember correctly. This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Jun 7 2009, 12:27 PM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Jun 7 2009, 11:41 PM
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Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 661 Joined: 4:16pm April 26, 2008 |
Spiderman didn't choose to become a hero "But with great power comes great responsibilities".
While an accident gave Peter (Spiderman) Parker great power, so too did Voldemort invoking the "Old Magic" of Lily's protection accidentally bestow upon infant Harry his power and responsibilities. Harry never was wounded as deeply by his burden as Frodo, Harry was a boy not even done with his growth, while Frodo was aged inside beyond his years by the ring and dagger and tooth. Harry was an outsider in the muggle world, but at Hogwarts he found his true home friends and Family. Frodo was consumed by his quest and only the spirit remained, Frodo failed at the final test and all would have been lost except for the mercy he'd shown Gollum and fate. Harry was never surer or stronger then when he faced down Voldmort offered him mercy and reclaimed his own life. This post has been edited by cooncatbob: Jun 7 2009, 11:43 PM -------------------- Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt, and Dance like no one is watching. |
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Jun 8 2009, 07:46 PM
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 921 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic |
QUOTE(cooncatbob @ Jun 8 2009, 12:41 AM) Spiderman didn't choose to become a hero "But with great power comes great responsibilities". While an accident gave Peter (Spiderman) Parker great power, so too did Voldemort invoking the "Old Magic" of Lily's protection accidentally bestow upon infant Harry his power and responsibilities. Yes, but I still feel that Spiderman wanted to be a hero. I agree that they all gained their powers accidentally...but I don't really think that Harry or Frodo ever wanted to be a hero. They just got forced into situations in which their natural instincts made heroes out of them. I don't think it was ever a goal for them. But I think it was for Spiderman. -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Jun 8 2009, 09:49 PM
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Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 515 Joined: 7:56pm December 28, 2008 Location: Quidditch Pitch, team practice |
QUOTE(chloe squibbulus @ Jun 8 2009, 10:46 PM) Yes, but I still feel that Spiderman wanted to be a hero. I agree that they all gained their powers accidentally...but I don't really think that Harry or Frodo ever wanted to be a hero. They just got forced into situations in which their natural instincts made heroes out of them. I don't think it was ever a goal for them. But I think it was for Spiderman. Well in SP 2 (sorry, I know that is probably not SP cannon) Peter tried to give it up but he couldn't. He just couldn't live with himself with the knowledge of crime out their. He realized he had a responsiblility. Harry too was given the responsibility, and decided he would never be ok if he just allowed for LV to keep living. -------------------- "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry,
but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" |
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