Harry excluding his friends |
 Feb 26 2008, 03:10 PM
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#1
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 5 Joined: 2:46pm October 22, 2007  |
Whenever Harry excluded his friends and tried not to have anything to do with them is simply outrageous. I mean Harry is going through a rough time and is trying to deal with Voldemort and he just moves his friends aside like they don't exist.
Also why had Dumbledore just made sure that Harry knew nothing that was going on in the wizarding world at the time? It was a good theory but shouldn't Harry be trying to help out with the Order instead of being made to keep in the shadows? I like Dumbledore but why should Harry have to stay away from something that only he can really stop? Respectfully Submitted, This post has been edited by Potterfan12: Feb 26 2008, 03:15 PM |
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Feb 26 2008, 03:23 PM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium  Posts: 7,168 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet   |
QUOTE(Potterfan12 @ Feb 26 2008, 03:10 PM)  Whenever Harr excluded his friends and tried not to have anything to do with them is simply outrageous. I mean Harry is going through a rough time and is trying to deal with Voldemort and he just moves his friends aside like they don't exist. Also why had Dumbledore just made sure that Harry knew nothing that was going on in the wizarding world at the time? It was a good theory but shouldn't Harry be trying to help out with the Order instead of being made to keep in the shadows? I like Dumbledore but why should Harry have to stay away from something that only he can really stop Harry does tend to internalize his feelings and many times tries to tackele things alone, but in OOTP, this isn't really true. Harry is the one who feels isolated from his friends, and from the wizarding world. He has been locked up for weeks at the Dursleys. The letters he gets from Ron and Hermione are hardly informative. As we see, he is so angry for this isolation, that the moment he sees Ron and Hermione he explodes with anger! Also, Harry knows that he needs his friends immensely. So, saying that he doesn't want to have anything to do with his friends isn't how I interpreted Harry's feelings at all. Dumbledore has a way of keeping people in the dark throughout the series, and there are many examples of this. In OOTP, as you pointed out, Harry was kept in the dark. Dumbledore's explanation to this was that it was for Harry's protection. Although, someone might argue that Harry being attacked by dementors certainly isn't protection at all. Another point here is the fact that Harry wasn't told about the prophecy until the end of OOTP. Albus had plenty of time to warn Harry that Voldemort would at some point go after the prophecy made by Trelawney. And Albus certainly knew that Voldemort would try to gain access into Harry's thoughts to manipulate him. So, I agree with you that Harry should have been more informed. --------------------  |
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Feb 26 2008, 03:25 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 36 Joined: 4:26pm July 24, 2006 Location: Gringotts |
I think it is a puberty/ heroism thing for Harry
 . And with Dumbledore, I am pretty sure he admits that he made a mistake.
-------------------- In memory of all who have perished by J.K.R.'s quill
U-No-Poo! The Constipation Sensation That's Gripping the Nation! |
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Feb 26 2008, 05:38 PM
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Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 673 Joined: 6:25am December 9, 2007 Location: Canada |
"Dumbledore has a way of keeping people in the dark throughout the series, and there are many examples of this. In OOTP, as you pointed out, Harry was kept in the dark. Dumbledore's explanation to this was that it was for Harry's protection. Although, someone might argue that Harry being attacked by dementors certainly isn't protection at all." - lirene
Well, short of being in Little Winging himself, Dumbledore could not have provided more protection for Harry. Harry's being attacked by Dementors was entirely due to that idiot Mundungus Fletcher falling down on the job he had sworn - as a member of the Order - to carry out. And Mrs. Figg - also on Dumbledore's orders - was there as a backup. DD telling Harry what was going on re the Order that summer would not have stopped the Dementors, sent by Umbridge, from coming after him. And if Dumbledore had so abandoned Harry in OoP, then what about him (DD) showing up at the trial to give evidence himself and to bring in Mrs. Figg as a witness (both of which probably saved Potter's butt), then what about him (DD) sending Phineas Nigellus to 12 GP to tell Harry to stay put when he wants to leave after the snake incident at Christmas, then what about him (DD) taking the fall for the formation of Dumbledore's Army, then what about him (DD) making Ron Weasley Gryffindor prefect because he was concerned about Harry taking on any more stress in his life, then what about him instructing Snape to teach Harry Occlumency? Oh, Dumbledore was so mean to poor Harry in OoP; didn't care about him at all (Smirk). There was a very legitamite reason for Dumbledore not telling Harry too much about what was going on and not looking him in the eye in OoP. Um ... something about how DD realised that the newly-reborn, fully whole and fully powerful Lord Voldemort could get into Harry's mind, perhaps? Having said that, I can understand why the boy was frustrated and angry about this. He did not yet have the experience and judgement to see the bigger picture. How many 15-year-olds do? (Heck, some 50-year-olds don't.) Good thing he wasn't running things though. Harry has always thought he has a right to know everything. It's the James arrogance in him. (Yikes, I'm agreeing with Snape! must ... stop ... that) And he has always thought that he knows better than anyone else. (Sometimes he actually does, but not always by any means.) That was what was so significant about that scene in DH where Potter was burying Dobby (sniff) and was washing his hands. That was when he took a gigantic leap in his maturity. It was, by my reading of the text, during those few hours that he decided he did not have to know everything - that he did not have to be told everything - in order to carry out his mission. The mission he had so bravely agreed to. He finally totally accepted that just maybe he could trust Albus Dumbledore (founder and head of the Order of the Phoenix, Headmaster of Hogwarts School, vanquisher of Grindewald, the only wizard Lord Voldemort has ever feared, imperfect human being) enough to believe that what DD had told him to do (ie - destroy the Horcruxes) was the right thing to do, as opposed to what the 17-year-old Harry Potter wanted to do (ie - find the Hallows). And, for me, it was at that moment in Shell Cottage that my boy Harry grew up - became a man. (I was so proud. - wipes eyes) Laura edited to add - Sorry about the late edit. But ... One more thing. And the tear that ran down Dumbledore's face at the end of Chapter 37 tells me that, although it was necessary for DD to do what he did in Book Five, he knew that it hurt and distressed Harry. And the fact that he had to hurt and distress Harry, hurt DD immensely. This post has been edited by Laura W: Feb 26 2008, 09:22 PM |
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Feb 26 2008, 06:48 PM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 7,168 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(Laura W @ Feb 26 2008, 05:38 PM) Well, short of being in Little Winging himself, Dumbledore could not have provided more protection for Harry. Harry's being attacked by Dementors was entirely due to that idiot Mundungus Fletcher falling down on the job he had sworn - as a member of the Order - to carry out. And Mrs. Figg - also on Dumbledore's orders - was there as a backup. DD telling Harry what was going on re the Order that summer would not have stopped the Dementors, sent by Umbridge, from coming after him. And if Dumbledore had so abandoned Harry in OoP, then what about him (DD) showing up at the trial to give evidence himself and to bring in Mrs. Figg as a witness (both of which probably saved Potter's butt), then what about him (DD) sending Phineas Nigellus to 12 GP to tell Harry to stay put when he wants to leave after the snake incident at Christmas, then what about him (DD) taking the fall for the formation of Dumbledore's Army, then what about him (DD) making Ron Weasley Gryffindor prefect because he was concerned about Harry taking on any more stress in his life, then what about him instructing Snape to teach Harry Occlumency? Oh, Dumbledore was so mean to poor Harry in OoP; didn't care about him at all (Smirk). There was a very legitamite reason for Dumbledore not telling Harry too much about what was going on and not looking him in the eye in OoP. Um ... something about how DD realised that the newly-reborn, fully whole and fully powerful Lord Voldemort could get into Harry's mind, perhaps? Laura, I have just re-read my previous post, and I never once mentioned that Dumbledore abandoned Harry. I was simply answering potterfan12's question. Nor, have I stated that Dumbledore was in any way mean to Harry. So, I truly hope you are not smirking at me, because it isn't warranted. But I do stand by what I said. I agree that Mundungus not being at his post was just a disaster waiting to happen. And let's not forget to thank that bit of evil and the dementors to Umbridge. But I don't know how a person like Mundungus was chosen to protect Harry in the first place when the stakes were so high. It is precisely for the reason that you stated above that Harry should have been warned. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would try to manipulate Harry and get into his mind. Harry ultimately found out, but at the cost of Sirius' life. This post has been edited by lirene: Feb 26 2008, 06:49 PM -------------------- |
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Feb 26 2008, 10:08 PM
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Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 673 Joined: 6:25am December 9, 2007 Location: Canada |
If I misunderstood what you were saying - what point(s) you were making -, I apologize.
To me, you were saying that Dumbledore had abandoned Harry throughout OoP by leaving him to the Dementors (as per the part of your message I quoted in my last post) and by not letting him in on the fact that LV could get into his thoughts. That sounds pretty mean of DD to me. My answering post was just to say why I thought Dumbledore's behavior was appropriate, as opposed to being unfair to Harry. Besides which, Snape DID tell Harry about LV getting into his mind during the Occlumency class: " 'It is enough that we know,' said Snape repressively. 'The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realised that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return -' 'And he might try and make me do things?' asked Harry. 'He might,' said Snape." So Harry did know. And he ignored this piece of information which, I assume, Snape gave to Potter because Dumbledore told him to. It just didn't register with him. Or he chose to ignore it. Or he didn't relate it to the visions of Sirius being tortured that he was seeing. Again, in relation to the two points you mentioned in your first post (unless I totally misread them, and anything is possible); 1) Dumbledore didn't protect Harry in OoP, because we saw that Harry was attacked by Dementors, and 2) Dubledore was remiss in not telling Harry about LV having access to his mind (and, adding to that, what you just wrote about Sirius being killed because DD did not tell Harry about LV getting into his mind) -- I still say that 1) Dumbledore did everything in his power to protect and watch over Harry in OoP (both in Little Winging and wherever else Harry happened to be located during the duration of OoP), and 2) it would have been very wrong for DD to have close contact with Harry that year because LV could use Potter against DD, and vice versa. To that i add that, in effect, Dumbledore did alert - through Snape - Harry to the very strong possibility that LV would plant things in his head that were not true. And that didn't save Sirius. Harry knowing that Voldemort and he had this mind connection and that LV could exploit it did not save Sirius. I think this is just an agree-to-disagree moment. When it comes to Dumbledore, and his motives and his methods, that's where we always seem to be: disagreeing, and agreeing to. Which is ok, of course. I didn't mean to offend, lirene. I still stand by what I said in my last post however. (I'm just getting a little tired of constantly defending Dumbledore on every thread I post to in LL. Maybe I'll just avoid that topic, before I start repeating myself.) Anyway ... back to how Harry treats his friends (Smile) LW This post has been edited by Laura W: Feb 26 2008, 10:14 PM |
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Feb 26 2008, 11:08 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 10 Joined: 9:20pm October 27, 2007 Location: Miami, Florida |
Harry excludes his friends to protect them. He loves them all very much, they are his family and does not want them to die like his parents. Yes he gets mad at them but we all do that. His friends are really all he has since the Dursleys are...well the Dursleys.
Maybe Dumbledore should have included Harry a bit more but he was trying to protect Harry. You have to give him credit for that no matter how that ended up. -------------------- Archermary
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Feb 27 2008, 08:03 AM
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron  Posts: 715 Joined: 6:51pm November 1, 2005 Location: The Rare Books section in the Hogwarts library |
QUOTE(Potterfan12 @ Feb 26 2008, 03:10 PM) Whenever Harry excluded his friends and tried not to have anything to do with them is simply outrageous. I mean Harry is going through a rough time and is trying to deal with Voldemort and he just moves his friends aside like they don't exist. Well, I'm going to echo lirene here. Harry wasn't deliberately excluding his friends. He'd been going through an incredibly stressful period, confronted with Voldemort's return and Cedric's death, and he didn't understand why he was "in on" so little of the knowledge that, it seemed to him, everyone else in the Wizarding world was getting. (I wrote "it seemed to him" because in fact, only the Order of the Phoenix was hearing this, and as we see, the adults were keeping the adolescents from hearing all the grim information.) When Harry rejoined Ron and Hermione, he let the cumulative effects of this stressful period loose on them, which is not praiseworthy, but does not equal pushing them aside. QUOTE Also why had Dumbledore just made sure that Harry knew nothing that was going on in the wizarding world at the time? It was a good theory but shouldn't Harry be trying to help out with the Order instead of being made to keep in the shadows? I like Dumbledore but why should Harry have to stay away from something that only he can really stop? Dumbledore was trying to protect Harry from the danger of trying to absorb too much information too fast, which might in turn lead him to rush into premature action and endanger himself. His protective feelings toward Harry were a large part of the reason he did this, as he admitted at the end of the book, when he also apologized to Harry. He was also being hyper-cautious and protective of Harry and of the efforts to fight Voldemort because he suspected that Voldemort had some access to Harry's knowledge. There is a very real question of how much Harry could have helped the Order at this time. He himself believed he could help them, and was frustrated because he couldn't do more. But how many 15-year-olds have felt this way when their elders are facing threats? Ron and Hermione are not being allowed in on all the Order's activities. One of the duties which Dumbledore had given the Order was protecting Harry from premature danger until he was ready to take on Voldemort. He couldn't stop Voldemort until that Dark Lord's other protections were destroyed (Dumbledore suspected the Horcruxes, but they weren't confirmed until HBP). On the other hand, both readers and characters knew from the earlier books in the series that Voldemort and his supporters wanted to do away with Harry before he could pose a threat to Voldemort. So protecting him was Dumbledore's high priority, even though that could be frustrating to an adolescent who longed to take up the Order's cause. -------------------- Avatar by tonksgirl |
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Feb 27 2008, 10:59 AM
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Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 4,976 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss. |
QUOTE I'm just getting a little tired of constantly defending Dumbledore on every thread I post to in LL. Maybe I'll just avoid that topic, before I start repeating myself. LW Oh don't Laura ! I'm very happy there is someone else who is there to support Dumbledore and everything he did.  If you go through my posts in threads on Dumbledore, you will see that I do the same thing as you. I totally agree with both of your posts. Dumbledore had done everything short of personally following Harry around wherever he went. And he himself admits his mistake of keeping Harry in the dark about the prophecy. What more can you say ?Potterfan12, Dumbledore didn't keep Harry in the dark about the happenings in the wizarding world, just the activities of the Order of The Phoenix. Harry used to get the Daily Prophet each day and that could have given him everything he wanted to know what was happening in his world. Or as much as the Daily Prophet was reporting anyway.  Dumbledore didn't give anyone the full facts of the prophecy. Not even the most trusted members of the Order, like Sirius and Remus, they only knew enough to know that the prophecy, which was at the Dept. of Mysteries, was being sought by Voldemort. And Harry is told half of that at 12 GP and surmises the other half. Dumbledore's top priority was keeping Harry alive. And for that, he had to sacrifice Harry's feelings. Dumbledore didn't like to do it, but he had to. He knew Harry too well by then. Remember, in PoA, Harry, then 13, wanted to confront an extremely dangerous mad mass-murderer who was thought to be Voldemort's right-hand man because he had come to know that he had betrayed his parents ? Harry had the habit of disregarding his safety whenever he got angry. Like Amontillada said, Dumbledore wanted to prevent Harry from doing anything rash without thinking things out, but sadly, it didn't quite work out that way and we lost Sirius.  As to the first question, Potterfan12, Harry never pushed aside his friends as though they didn't exist IMO. He was just too stressed out with everything that had happened to him over the summer and the recent Dementor attack when he screamed at Ron and Hermione at 12 GP. If being made a chief guest at voldemort's rebirth wasn't enough, Harry started feeling Voldemort's moods too. That alone is enough to drive anyone crazy. Imagine sharing your mind with a conscienceless killer who, for good measure, wants to kill you too. Harry was more tough than anyone thought him to be. Harry is reluctant to include his friends in his ventures because he doesn't want anyone to get hurt because of him. That's why he is so brusque when Ginny and Luna offer to help him. He would have tried to exclude Ron and Hermione too, but knew that they wouldn't leave him alone. Harry never excluded his friends from the joys in his life, but only the parts where he felt they would come into danger if they were with him. That is very natural. And Harry, being a person with a short fuse, and with the fact of Voldemort playing peep-bo inside his head, was a bit rude like Luna said, that's all. --------------------  L O V E |
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Feb 27 2008, 12:56 PM
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#10
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 7,168 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(Laura W @ Feb 26 2008, 10:08 PM) To me, you were saying that Dumbledore had abandoned Harry throughout OoP by leaving him to the Dementors (as per the part of your message I quoted in my last post) and by not letting him in on the fact that LV could get into his thoughts. That sounds pretty mean of DD to me. First of all, I agree with rowena, there is no need to avoid topics like this; it all adds to great discussion. And I am learning a lot from them. But to answer, no, I didn't say that Dumbledore abandoned Harry or that Dumbledore's actions towards Harry were mean. My comment about the dementor attack reflects my surprise as to why Mundungus was chosen as the person to guard Harry. Of all the Order members, at least to me, he wasn't a good choice at all. With the danger of Voldemort, and Harry's life and protection at stake, I am merely questioning the reasoning behind this choice. I don't believe for a moment that Dumbledore wanted any harm to come to Harry. QUOTE(Laura W @ Feb 26 2008, 10:08 PM) Besides which, Snape DID tell Harry about LV getting into his mind during the Occlumency class: " 'It is enough that we know,' said Snape repressively. 'The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realised that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return -' 'And he might try and make me do things?' asked Harry. 'He might,' said Snape." So Harry did know. And he ignored this piece of information which, I assume, Snape gave to Potter because Dumbledore told him to. It just didn't register with him. Or he chose to ignore it. Or he didn't relate it to the visions of Sirius being tortured that he was seeing. Snape does explain this to Harry on Dumbledore's orders. However, Harry hates Snape. Anything Snape tells him, Harry will question. Snape wasn't the person who should have had to explain all of this to Harry. It was Dumbledore's responsibility. Take into account the fact that every time Harry had an Occlumency lession with Snape, his scar hurt tremendously, only enforcing Harry's distrust of Snape. I realize that Dumbledore was avoiding Harry for his protection, but an explanation was in order. The attack on Mr. Weasley was more than enough evidence that Voldemort could penetrate Harry's mind. In my opinion, it was at this point that Dumbledore should have told Harry about the prophecy. QUOTE(Laura W @ Feb 26 2008, 10:08 PM) 1) Dumbledore didn't protect Harry in OoP, because we saw that Harry was attacked by Dementors, and 2) Dubledore was remiss in not telling Harry about LV having access to his mind (and, adding to that, what you just wrote about Sirius being killed because DD did not tell Harry about LV getting into his mind) -- I have already answered question 1. As for question 2, I do hold Dumbledore accountable. I hold him accountable for him not being open enough with Harry, and Dumbledore admitted this to Harry. Dumbledore's explanation was that he cared too much for Harry and that was the reason he didn't want to burden Harry with the information of the prophecy. Harry should have been told, and Dumbledore had ample opportunity to tell Harry. So, as you say, we will agree to disagree. But again, that is what these discussions are for. -------------------- |
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