I'll go out on the proverbial limb here and say that HP had far more nuanced heroes and villains than we've seen so far here in TGC! (Of course, I have the advantage of having read the HP septology and only the first two books of Pullman's trilogy). So perhaps comparisons aren't fair until we read the whole trilogy. That said.....

I particularly admire the writing of the characters of Severus Snape and of Albus Dumbledore - and I'll use them to make my point. I thought their "goodness" and their less noble sides blend to form flawed heroes who nonetheless inspire. I would say that, in order to be heroic, a person or character has to inspire others by their actions, or what they have overcome. Severus was outstandingly brave, and loyal to his love....all the while remaining bitter and jealous of the dead. Albus did manage to learn from the colossal mistakes of his past and save not only Harry but the entire wizarding world. In short, although having flaws which are the stuff of Greek tragedy, those characters gained my wholehearted respect. (And, judging from the threads, many, many others found heroes to love in HP!)

I've seen less in Lyra, Lord Asriel, Mrs. Coulter, the scholars at Oxford, etc who inspire me. Meh! On a positive note, I quite like the Gyptians, and the witches are coldly fascinating (but there are no McGonagall's among them to earn our love and respect as of yet!) Iorek was heroic and brave - I quite liked him. Again, I'd have to say that JKR gave us many heroic characters who were easy to connect with, to like, to root for, and to, sadly, mourn when they passed. We were rarely indifferent to them. I've yet to find that same quality in Pullman's characters. I remain......lukewarm. Is it me? Or the writing? Or where we are in the trilogy? However, when one is lukewarm, one cannot be inspired. And so Pullman's heroes falter a bit for me.

Anyone else? Thoughts?

This post has been edited by fidelia: Apr 3 2008, 08:25 PM

QUOTE

And so Pullman's heroes falter a bit for me.

I love Lyra because she is not so "black and white" as a hero. It makes her more real.

Harry, while being angsty, is born to be the hero. He knows this once he enters Hogwarts. He may have momets of doubt and seem rather angsty, but he's being groomed to die the heroes death. While I love and adore Harry the Hero, Lyra has a charm that seems more real.

Both heroes closely follow Campbell's hero journey outline.

I also think the fact that our villains are not so easily pegged "Dark Lord" makes them seem more real.

In the end both Harry and Lyra are willing to risk everything for a friend, making them the true hero. I just feel that Pullman's hero and villians are more complex while Rowling's hero and villians tend to be more black and white.

QUOTE

In the end both Harry and Lyra are willing to risk everything for a friend, making them the true hero. I just feel that Pullman's hero and villians are more complex while Rowling's hero and villians tend to be more black and white.

I agree completely! JKR does tend to write some of her characters as if they are simply good or bad. But in HDM, there comes a point where you begin to wonder. The main example in book one is Lord Asriel. We are told throughout the book that he is brave, and honourable and how wonderful he is. He is idealised the whole way through by Lyra, and we, along with her, think that if only she can reach him, everything will be okay, because he is somehow the opposite of Mrs. Coulter. But then we do find him, and he promptly kills Roger and goes into another world. So all the idealisation of his character just suddenly goes.

Then (and I'm putting all this under the spoiler thing because it relates to the other books in the triology) we find out what he is actually up to and what he eventually does, giving up his life in the process. The end result is good, so does that mean he isn't bad after all? I just think that he is one character that can't be cathegorised so easily in any way. Then there's Mrs. Coulter, who begins to find out that she does love Lyra after all, and tries to save her in the only way she knows how. She ultimately also helps Lord Asriel. But that doesn't really cancel out everything she had done before, but it does show that she has some form of decency still in her, and that she is capable of, even if she isn't a good person, to do good things.

So I don't think Pullman's characters are clear cut in any way. Lyra does have some qualities that aren't particularly endearing, for example and she is quite arrogant. What is great about her is that she overcomes all her selfish impulses and the "it's all about me" attitude that she has for most of NL to become someone who is genuinely ready to risk her life for the sake of others and to do what she thinks is right, even going completely against everything she has heard about Dust so far from figures of authority, and deciding that it must be good. And not only that, but actually act on that decision. Lyra grows into her role as the hero of the book, by almost stumbling into the adventure by accident. Harry's job, on the other hand, was basically laid out for him at the end of the first book (and confirmed at the end of the fifth).

But I'll be interested to hear what you think of the series when you read all three, fidelia! Because I do feel that you only really get a real sense of how far the characters went in their personal journeys one you see it as a whole, because there are quite a few twists and turns along the way!

QUOTE(Miss_Talons @ Apr 4 2008, 12:21 PM)

But I'll be interested to hear what you think of the series when you read all three, fidelia! Because I do feel that you only really get a real sense of how far the characters went in their personal journeys one you see it as a whole, because there are quite a few twists and turns along the way!

I agree - unlike Harry - where there is a heroes journey in each book, this book needs the series to really be able to see all of the development.

QUOTE

So I don't think Pullman's characters are clear cut in any way. Lyra does have some qualities that aren't particularly endearing, for example and she is quite arrogant. What is great about her is that she overcomes all her selfish impulses and the "it's all about me" attitude that she has for most of NL to become someone who is genuinely ready to risk her life for the sake of others and to do what she thinks is right, even going completely against everything she has heard about Dust so far from figures of authority, and deciding that it must be good.

One of the things I've loved about Lyra is her ability to overcome her faults. While Harry is not perfect, he's not as flawed as she is. Her character is dynamic, and exciting. Often times at the start of the novel she reminds me more of Dudley then Harry.

QUOTE

The main example in book one is Lord Asriel. We are told throughout the book that he is brave, and honourable and how wonderful he is. He is idealised the whole way through by Lyra, and we, along with her, think that if only she can reach him, everything will be okay, because he is somehow the opposite of Mrs. Coulter. But then we do find him, and he promptly kills Roger and goes into another world. So all the idealisation of his character just suddenly goes.

He's interesting, but like most children who feel their parents are perfect to start with, there is an awakening to reality for Lyra. I won't discuss the end of the series since it's not what we're covering, but his character is so interesting. He reminds me a bit of another Harry Potter character - and when/if we read the final book I'll have to discuss that.

QUOTE(Miss_Talons @ Apr 4 2008, 01:21 PM)

But I'll be interested to hear what you think of the series when you read all three, fidelia! Because I do feel that you only really get a real sense of how far the characters went in their personal journeys one you see it as a whole, because there are quite a few twists and turns along the way!

Thank you, Miss Talons! I just finished "The Subtle Knife" and am heading out tomorrow to pick up book 3. I can see already from book 2 that things shift dramatically after TGC, so I can only imagine what lies ahead! I'll hold off on any definitive opinions on the series until I read the whole thing!

As far as villains go......I completely detest Marisa Coulter. She is so disturbing. I have to say, Voldemort had an eerie fascination for me, much like watching Anthony Hopkins in "Silence of the Lambs". Mrs Coulter is simply repellent. Do we have another psychopath on our hands? Her treatment of her daughter Lyra is so removed from the human condition. There isn't an ounce of maternal warmth or care, which indicates to me that she lacks basic emotions and ethics. I find it hard to believe that Lyra is related to her - Lyra is so emotional, instinctive, reactive.

Equally disturbing is Mrs. Coulter's desire to rend children't souls from them. That mutilation is horrific. I found the deaths of the children who were shorn of their daemons deeply troubling to read, and the zombie-like demeanor of those adults whose daemons were split from them is chilling. That Mrs. Coulter could work to continue this process is probably indicative of a deranged mind! What do you all think?

This post has been edited by fidelia: Apr 4 2008, 08:09 PM

QUOTE(fidelia @ Apr 4 2008, 08:55 PM)

Thank you, Miss Talons! I just finished "The Subtle Knife" and am heading out tomorrow to pick up book 3. I can see already from book 2 that things shift dramatically after TGC, so I can only imagine what lies ahead! I'll hold off on any definitive opinions on the series until I read the whole thing!

Ooh, hope you enjoy The Amber Spyglass! I'd have to say that the third was my favorite, and yes, the last two are very different, in many ways, from TGC.


Hmm, Mrs. Coulter is a very tricky character. A very horrible, despicable "villain", and though I hated her when I read the books, I couldn't help but love her character, because she is just so interesting. XD I agree, the soul-renting was just horrific, but it is interesting how, as soon as she sees Lyra in the cage, she gets very angry and immediately stops the soul-splitting machine. She has some heart, but it's very deep inside of her, and doesn't really show itself often.

Spoilers from The Amber Spyglass: The thing about her, however, is that she suddenly acts very maternal to Lyra, and you kind of feel that she might be "good". But she still shows horrible characteristics, and this juxtaposition is strange, interesting, but sometimes confusing and muddling about her personality. Also, at the end, she does sacrifice herself with Lord Asriel, for the betterment of the world(s), I guess. Now for a wrap-up. XD She is a ruthless character, but she has some good in her. But she does not really act upon this throughout the books, save for a few parts.

I find her character (as well as most of the other characters, really) fascinating and very deep.

I know, fidelia! Mrs. Coulter absolutely terrified me when I read GC for the first! I think it is the image of a woman who acts pleasantly and just seems, at first glance at least, so nice and at the same time being capable of doing and saying terrible things. It does seem that something fundamental is missing from her, which makes her do all those absolutely disgusting things. And I agree with voldy about her strange reaction of Lyra at the end. I think that Lyra may have sparked something in her. I think that this connexion between Lyra and Mrs. Coulter is the only way that she coulc begin to understand how vile her actions really were. It was the only time that she could not pretend that it was all for the good of the children and that her actions were justified. The fact that she stops it from happening to Lyra forces her to see the consequences and how terrible the things that she is doing really are.

I find Mrs. Coulter just an incredibly fascinating character. Very different from Voldemort but at the same time with a couple similarities too (such as being corrupted by ambition and power).

By the way, fidelia, I love the way you compared Voldemort with Dr. Lecter! I had never thought of that, but now that you mention it, I think you are right! You also made me think about how their characters might compare to each other. Ummm, food for thought....

(and I love, love Silence of the Lambs. The nightmares I get after it are totally worth it! lol)