Hidden Sexism in Harry Potter: Part 2, Are men and women equal in the Potter Books? |
 May 10 2009, 08:10 AM
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower  Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower    |
Time for a new thread, the old one here has reached 50 pages.
Are there hidden sexist themes in the story? Is Jo more old fashioned then she let's on? Is Ginny nothing more then a baby-making machine? Is Molly? Tonks? Does Hermione need to be defined by what man she is with, whether it be Ron or Harry or anyone at all? Are Mothers glorified over Career women? Just posting some questions to keep the ball rolling. 
This post has been edited by Shard: May 10 2009, 08:19 AM --------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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May 10 2009, 12:49 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 4 Joined: 3:26pm March 10, 2006 |
I see some people on this thread are really grasping at straws in their attempt to bash Ginny. the claim that she was trying to make Harry jealous by kissing Dean is simply ridiculous: she was in a secluded spot of the castle, and she was quite annoyed at having been seen by Ron and Harry. also, if she wanted to make him jealous she could have simply snogged Dean right in front of him at the breakfast table or at quidditch training. she never flaunted Dean in front of him.
also, I wanted to reply to purplestarz, who said that Ginny lever unleashes her temper on Harry. I remember her giving him quite a shard time about his attitude in OOTP, when he believed to be posessed by Voldemort. So much that he apologized to her, when he didn't even apologize to Ron and Hermione. she told him to "don't take that tone with her" later in the book. also she was really worried and angry about hearing he was "doing what the HBP book told him to" and told him so. also, that's a clear prove that they do have a connection in both of those scenes: she can relate to the experience of possession in OOTP, and Harry "immediately knows what's on her mind" when she sees her look upset over the book in HBP. She is the only one to wich Harry has apologized for being a git in OOTP, and he reassured her about the prince's book in HBP, while he just brushed off Hermione's worries and told her to stop bothering him. also, Ginny has shown that she does whatever she wants whatever Harry might say. she didn't go with him in DH because she knew about the trace and she would have just put the trio at risk by going with them, but she went to hogwarts and led the resistence with Luna and Neville and later she fought in the battle of hogwarts. she's certanly no shrinking violet that needs Harry's approval and guidance to do everything. she's quite indipendent and she's got initiative. This post has been edited by morgana863: May 10 2009, 01:33 PM |
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May 10 2009, 01:28 PM
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 75 Joined: 9:25am November 17, 2007 |
QUOTE This is hardly great praise, as I am sure a fair proportion of the girls at Hogwarts could be similarly described. So the fact that two characters admire Ginny's beauty does not mean she's pretty but the fact that Ron claims she never shuts up is a definite proof of her outgoing nature (despite the fact that her best friend was an enchanted diary). I see some double standards here. QUOTE Also I'm sorry but the story IS from Harry's pov, it's what's BEEN there for 7 whole books. We NEVER get to be anyone elses head, we can infer and make speculation but that's all it is, specultion. For all intents and purposes were inside Harry's head for the duration of the ride. Harry isn't the only person who talks in the books or expresses an opinion on the other characters. QUOTE We get hints of her personality and the things she is interested in GoF as well with her sticking up for Hermione, sticking with Neville and the fact that she has been sneaking onto her brother's brooms since she was six. How does that prove that she is popular? So far I have yet to read an argument which supports the statement that she has always been popular and good looking. QUOTE Actually Lily LUNA Potter, thank you very much. Also Arthur, Fred, Molly were already taken. Was Lily Luna in the books? QUOTE And there are other times when she does argue with him. She gets like a completely petulant child when both he and her mother try to keep her from the battle in DH I though Harry was the one who convinced her to stay away. QUOTE And when did 'hot' and 'popular' become personality traits? Those are outside perceptions, not what is inside a person. Popular may not be a personality trait but "funny" and "outgoing" are. Ginny has not proven that she is either in the first five books. QUOTE also, I wanted to reply to purplestarz, who said that Ginny lever unleashes her temper on Harry. I remember her giving him quite a shard time about his attitude in OOTP, when he believed to be posessed by Voldemort. Fair enough, but this was before they got together. Once they did, we hardly see her standing up to him or demanding anything from him. QUOTE also, that's a clear prove that they do have a connection in both of those scenes: she can relate to the experience of the diary in OOTP, and Harry "immediately knows what's on her mind" when she sees her look upset over the book in HBP. In OotP, Harry forgot all about Ginny's experience with the diary which shows exactly how important she is to him. |
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May 10 2009, 01:31 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 127 Joined: 12:15pm February 19, 2009 |
QUOTE Ah, sorry then. I misunderstood. I think it is grand you liked Neville's characterization and I am glad to hear that there are many 'types' out there that women can find acceptable  Yes, it is my personal opinion and taste. I think Neville, in my personal and subjective eyes, is a really cool mate because he's sensitive, understanding, calm, patient, weak, profound, sweet, caring and tender (like we can see with his plants, e.g.), home and family -drawn, yet adventurous, strong, active, determined but not obsessed, only caring about the sole contents of whatever it is he's doing rather than any images and ego (which is rather rare in men (because of their education and civilization), as a matter of fact), intelligent, interested, emphatic,... Neville RULEZ !!! (again, in my opinion). I think Neville is someone who's not afraid of showing and talking about his feelings in a relationship with a woman, and not ashamed of being weak sometimes (his past specifically permitting him to develop like that). as for the other boys in the PV: Ron - too dim and rude for me, sorry (I don't really understand Hermione about that) Draco - thrilling but too brutish and uncontrolled for me to have a crush on him Bill - too patriarchal and traditional and always so serious and normal, imo. I just couldn't have a laugh with him, and there wouldn't be any suprises with him at all. Charlie - so cool and nice and awesome, imo, but too occupied with dragons for there to be much space for a girl in his life - so it'd be rather unsatisfying to be with him, imo. Percy - NO WAY - *runs for her life* Fred - too annoying and nervous and dominant George - pretty cool, actually ! Arthur - too boring and normal for me James - NO WAY Sirius - maybe for an affair, but not live with him Lupin - big YES until book 7 (in book 7: oh no, damn, he becomes almost like Bill, wanting to meddle with every business possible) Lucius - too arrogant Hagrid - awesome, if he weren't so big Flitwick - YES, love him Cedric - too popular and perfect for my taste Krum - actually: maybe, why not the others are either too old or it's otherwise obvious why they don't appeal in the slightest (e.g. Pettigrew). I would like to hear other girl's opinions about cool boyfriends in the PV, actually, and why you think they'd be good for a girl or why not, or who is a more traditional man in the PV, and who is more progressive. QUOTE I think if it were romance based, then we would know a lot more about just what Harry did and didn't say to Ginny when they spent time alone. As it stands, people can imagine it being whatever they want. (bold mine)No they can't. An author writes something to get something across, however marginal the storyline is. What the authors write, is (whether consciously or not, but always necessarily) in order to get something across - so what he or she actually writes, and how marginal that may be, is therefore legitimately down for analysation. If she had wanted to get something else across in her marginal storylines, she could have written it another way (the thing staying marginal nevertheless). Besides, I don't think romance is a marginal theme in the books at all. We get pretty fair insights (too many for my taste). In a book, everything has meaning, nothing is just coincidence (saying that would be just totally missing the essence of what litterature is). The same with Parvati's Butterfly-thing. Books are not life where coincidences naturally happen. The same applies for this statement, speaking of Ginny's snogging Dean and Harry stumbling across it: QUOTE That isn't Ginny trying to make Harry jealous, that is just a natural working out of the relationship between Ginny and Dean, (bold mine)------------------------------------------------------------ QUOTE at this point having a boyfriend merely to make Harry jealous is counter-productive, because it just delays the point at which Harry and Ginny can get together. (bold mine)Sure!, but that's not the way those girls' psychology works, and one of the reasons why it is so unhealthy. Unfortunately, I know a lot of girls like that, so I have a background fore being able to notice their existence in litterature as well if it is there, as it so clearly is in Ginny's case. QUOTE even taking away all the other dreadful things about the guy, that one thing: obsession and focus only on the girl is abhorrent to me But this is precisely about taking away all his obssessive traits involved in it ! "You are stretching what you want to see to fit an innocent occurrence." (bold mine) no such things in books, as I pointed out above. And also when seeing it concretely from within the books, this "occurrence" is totally consistent with the particular nature of Ginny's previous showings-up, I don't know how that could possibly not be consistent, and how one can possibly interpret that away. But as I already elaborated on the consistent chain of Ginny's character and it's satyromaniac behaviour, which clearly exists throughout the series, until she gets Harry (having waited long enough and been miserable long enough to deserve him), I won't repeat myself now. "Please explain how, if this was always Ginny's intention, she waited til almost 2 years after getting a boyfriend to 'show herself snogging' in front of Harry? Why did she not jump at the opportunity to go to the ball with Harry? If she was as focussed on him as you seem to think, why does she keep her word to Neville?" This is, again, an inherent part of the psychology of such a girl. The waiting and longing yet not daring, to do anything whatsoever besides showing up blushing and stuff like that. In book 4 (and also later), she was still in this indirect state of persuing the cause (which also applies for her "innocently" snogging Dean), that doesn't diminish anything from her being focussed on Harry at all, on the contrary (as I already pointed out in a previous post where I elaborated precisely on that). And when she didn't take Harry and stuck to Neville instead, this is exactly one of the traits of the psychology of such a girl - they say no and then, immediatly afterwards, are being totally angry, depressed, desperate. They are so overwhelmed and embarassed and even more uncertain and helpless in this situation than they were before, by the sudden initiative of their prince on their behalf (which they didn't consider to be likely at all, as they don't have the self-esteem that is required to consider something like that to be possible in the first place), after having waited so long and become so accustomed to the absence, that they turn it down. It is another element along the consistent chain of this character through the series (until getting him), which supports the consistency of my interpretation. "I still have fond feelings for my first crush even though I've been married for years" Of course, and this is totally normal, and has nothing to do with the satyromaniac state Ginny's being in and which I've been trying to explain (there's a huge difference between what you're saying here, and what Ginny goes through, but I already elaborated on that). "It's not her passivity that he notices, that attracts him to her" That's because he doesn't notice her at all when she was hiding and retaining her desire for years, over-altruistically and selflessly (out of lack of self-consciousness) sparing Harry from her difficult and profound emotions and despair. "(I don't see this passivity myself)" That's the whole point of it, and it only supports that it is there. You'll only notice it during further and very precise readings. You'll notice the consistent chain there is throughout the series, and which reveals about Ginny what I've been elaborating on her. "It's not her passivity that he notices, that attracts him to her (I don't see this passivity myself), it's her life and spirit and vibrancy." (bold mine) Exactly. When she finally dumps her complicated, unattractive inner self (or the author doesn't let her have it any more), and becomes all cheering you up and compromising about everything (her rare "outbursts" of "anger" or "complaints" mainly towards Harry never lead to a change of the situation in her favour, so they're almost cynical to be there nevertheless, it's dumping your emotions and whishes in the end and swallow), he becomes interested all of a sudden. "QUOTE Where exactly does he ever compromise on her behalf ? Sorry, but this is just completely untrue. He backs down on numerous occasions from trying to stop her doing what she wants to do (ie going to the Ministry). He would rather 'protect' her and the others, but knows he can't force her to do what he wants. He has to compromise his wishes there for hers, and he does." (bold mine) I find that statement really disturbing. Equating compromising with not stifling somebody's whishes  "and believing that she moulds herself to Harry's wants and needs is saying that he is dominant" the author is moulding her into what fits Harry's personality, it's not Harry being dominant - he doesn't even have to - as the author has already moulded the girl into what he likes, there's even no need for him to be dominant any more. And I don't recall anybody saying or even suggesting she was a sex object either. This post has been edited by WalnutWandCarrier: May 10 2009, 01:52 PM |
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May 10 2009, 01:59 PM
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic  Posts: 9,192 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(Purpleztar @ May 10 2009, 07:28 PM)  QUOTE This is hardly great praise, as I am sure a fair proportion of the girls at Hogwarts could be similarly described. So the fact that two characters admire Ginny's beauty does not mean she's pretty but the fact that Ron claims she never shuts up is a definite proof of her outgoing nature (despite the fact that her best friend was an enchanted diary). I see some double standards here. QUOTE(Purpleztar @ May 10 2009, 07:28 PM) QUOTE And there are other times when she does argue with him. She gets like a completely petulant child when both he and her mother try to keep her from the battle in DH I though Harry was the one who convinced her to stay away. QUOTE(Purpleztar @ May 10 2009, 07:28 PM) In OotP, Harry forgot all about Ginny's experience with the diary which shows exactly how important she is to him. No, Harry just hadn't remembered until Ginny reminds him, which isn't that surprising considering how self-absorbed he was at the time.
--------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 10 2009, 02:40 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 127 Joined: 12:15pm February 19, 2009 |
QUOTE He loved her and lots of things about her, from her fiesty temper, to her prankster ways, to her prettiness, to her wit, to her compassionate nature. Uhm... where exactly did he ever display any of this fondness (any of this huge perception of and interest in the human being Ginny, not in what is convenient for him about her) ? QUOTE Harry was the victim of a hunting - by a murderous dark lord. He didn't want Ginny involved in that. which has chauvinistic traits. It is her decision, and her's alone. Not letting her do something, even something dangerous, is oppressive (wanting to hold her back from the Hogwarts battle). QUOTE he shared some stuff and not other stuff when they were off alone. He "shared with her" what was convenient for him, and put up a barrier towards the things he didn't like in her. QUOTE the only reason we got more about her than "Bill" or "Charlie" was because Harry liked her - loved her and then married her. That was her role in the book. Not a quester - not a tag along friend like Hermione - not a best buddy like Ron - but a girlfriend who went on to be best friend and wife. (bold mine)You've hit it on the nail !! QUOTE I don't buy the idea that Harry deserved no wife just because his life was a disaster (being chased by Voldy and the DEs). But he did need someone who was understanding, (bold mine)Every man who puts his career first needs an understanding wife. (the Voldy-hunting is metaphorical here) "And she would be a demanding nag" Very telling that a girl who is not all-convenient is immediatly viewed as a nag and as totally unconvienient, in fact, as totally horrible and menacing to the man's person, and all the other degrading things you said about girls who are individuals with personal whishes. "One doesn't go looking for someone who is plain, unpopular and disagrees with their every move. That just makes no sense to me." (bold mine) Of course it doesn't. As a male apparently accustomed, like many men, to girls agreeing with their every move. It is no surprise so many men fancy Ginny in this thread. "The Harry POV argument is to explain why HARRY started noticing Ginny. Why she suddenly became attractive to him (although JKR gave them a summer together so it wasn't so sudden - we were not invited). All we had was Harry's POV. Now prior to Harry noticing her, it was evident other guys were noticing her. She was already popular - that is why Pansy claimed Blaise had an eye for her. Ya see, when Ginny came around, Blaise would start his posing or whatever he did - and Pansy noticed, so she accused. Dean and Michael also found Ginny attractive prior to Harry coming to the party. And pretty people can be popular, just like uncombly people. That is just a fun, nice, talented (in some way - even if just at telling jokes) pleasant person to be around - regardless of looks. So I think a mountain is being made of a mole hill here with Ginny. Her personality did not change other than her natural maturity. What changed was Harry's perception and that is what WE read. We have no idea when other guys started to find her attractive because Harry doesn't know and he is our information boat." Her looks are clearly getting hugely emphasized in HBP (this is not only a question of quantity). Why? Even Draco, a very demanding and pampered little boy, admits it. And I think Pansy says something about there being many boys lately finding her pretty, "even you Draco", or something like that. "You want them to be at one another's throats like Ron and Hermione? That is only one type of relationship. I hate arguing all the time, so that type would not work for me, for instance" Surely it wouldn't. If you're considering an independant, individual woman as someone who goes at your throat. See what you're saying here? That a woman who doesn't accept everything, is immediatly a complete psycho attacking your person, a horrible disgusting weirdo (as you clearly suggested). You don't seem to have a concept of what "an independent, individual woman" means. "Harry says something about her, then quickly adds 'ugly though' "  As so many guys who want to just get you going with them or keeping you adoring them in order to get from you what they want, however how. This is about HIS interests, not about HERS."where she stays in the RoR but at her first opportunity she's out of there" And I'm relieved she went. What I'm not relieved about, though, is that she stayed with a man who tries to withhold her from doing things she wants to do, like she were his child, and not supporting her in her activities. (metaphorically speaking) "People who are friends tend to laugh at each others jokes. " (bold mine) Exactly. "Actually Lily LUNA Potter, thank you very much." Luna is not related exclusively to Ginny's biography, but equally to Harry's, if not more to his, seeing as Ginny wasn't there in the Malfoy-cellar-scene and then at Shell Cottage. It was most likely Harry's choice too. PS: (this and my previous posts are in response to comments from the first thread on the topic, page 50) This post has been edited by WalnutWandCarrier: May 10 2009, 02:54 PM |
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May 10 2009, 04:44 PM
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Firebolt-Polisher at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 1,083 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
I'm still on the first thread as well. Anyone remember which pages the Molly and Bellatrix conversations were on - to give newbies a chance to bring up that conversation as well.
If you are a new to this topic - WELCOME ABOARD! And please forgive us if we have egged each other on a bit - we will calm down in a bit - once we get distracted onto someone else. QUOTE Shard: Is this a human girl as well subject to all the teenage hormones and emotions all teenagers have to deal with? There is a difference between snogging because one wants snogging to be part of your life and using snogging as a means of getting a guy. In the former case, you decide when you want it and when you don’t want it and there are other things you do together. In the latter case, your lips always have to be puckered and ready to go whether you actually feel like snogging or not because one of the fears that goes with getting a guy with one’s lips is losing him if you are not ready to kiss whenever he wants to. And in real life, a relationship is living on borrowed time if it is only based on snogging. There is a difference between liking how someone looks (and how jealous the other guys are of you because of who you are with) and liking the person. There is a difference between wanting to kiss someone and liking the person the lips belong to. There are too many young girls who have a mistaken belief that just because a guy wants to kiss them that he actually is in love with them – and this plays into a fantasy which often leads to a harsh reality. As Janis Ian sang in At Seventeen: Remember those who win the game Lose the love they sought to gain In debentures of quality And dubious integrity Their small town eyes will gape at you In dull surprise when payment due Exceeds accounts received At seventeen QUOTE Purpleztar: She should have not let her personality and looks be drastically changed by an omnipotent author. She should have demanded explanations from her boyfriend and not let him treat her worse than he treats his best friends. She shouldn't have accepted to be treated like a snogdoll by a boyfriend who thinks girls' emotions are complicated and boring. I think that Hermione overly complicated Cho’s emotions on purpose so that Harry would not trust his own judgement concerning the circumstances of his first kiss. Hermione basically made Harry feel like he did everything wrong and Harry could not question her. The only part of the experience which Harry was uncomfortable with before Hermione dissected the whole experience was the tears. And there are two things to note about the tears. One, Harry was looking at Cho every chance he got and I went through all those scenes before the kiss and that was the first instance of her crying. If Cho was crying half as much as Hermione insinuated, would not Harry have witnessed Cho crying before this instance. Secondly, not crying very much was the only quality, besides her snogging ability that Harry reports liking about Ginny in DH – yet Ginny seems to cry a lot in that book – turning away sometimes to cover it up so Harry doesn’t see it – but crying still. It seems strange to me that JKR did not latch onto another quality to highlight. As far as sharing emotions, I think that Cho and Harry basically had conflicting views as to what was the kind thing to do when someone is upset. Cho figured that the kind thing was to talk about it and Harry felt that the kind thing to do was to leave them alone and let them decide for themselves when they were ready to talk - both felt that the other was being inconsiderate and treating the other’s feelings with disrespect. Cho I think was caught up between wondering if what Harry wanted was physically intimacy or real intimacy (which she figured included the sharing of feelings) – and Cho does seem jealous of Harry’s friendship with Hermione and the fact that Harry seemed more willing to share intimate things like feelings with Hermione than her. As far as Cho was concerned, people shared feelings if they were important to each other. As far as Harry was concerned, if someone is important to you, you do not insist that they share their feelings when they are raw but wait until they are ready to do so: p. 508 (OOTP 26) – “Ron dragged himself to bed shortly after this. Out of respect for his feelings, Harry waited a while before going up to the dormitory himself, so that Ron could pretend to be asleep if he wanted to.” Harry doesn’t show Ginny’s feelings the same respect he shows Ron’s – he doesn’t really care if she is upset or not – unless it means that he won’t get a kiss. Harry will call Fleur ugly in exchange for a kiss (which is more humouring the person for personal gain than the sparing of feelings). However, Harry doesn’t seem to care what is important to Ginny. QUOTE Purpleztar: And finally, she should have known that she deserves to be with someone who treats her like an equal and who trustes her abilities and intelligence, not with someone who doesn't want to bother her pretty little head with his problems. Harry doesn’t seem to care what is important to Ginny – Harry seems to think that snogging is more important than the fact that Ginny just led the team to victory or that Ginny is trying to study for her OWLs and he totally disregards what Ginny wants and thinks when he makes decisions concerning her (not just decisions concerning himself). It is one thing to tell Ginny that he has a mission that he needs to do – but to tell Ginny that she should stay out of the fight and tell her what to do is quite another. Don’t couples discuss things or is one the master and the other the servant who just bows and says “as you wish”! Even with the excuse of hormones, there does seem to be something excessive about Harry’s behaviour – he is ether trying to kiss Ginny or keeping himself going in her absence by thinking about the last time he kissed her. Harry seems to feel that the type of “time together” that tests Ron’s tolerance was being more and more restricted over time. We never find out whether Ginny figures that their time together is too restricted or just right. The word “forced” is also unusual since it creates the impression that studying for OWLs is something Ginny is being coerced into doing – rather than something she wants to. Could Ginny not wish to do well on her OWLs? p. 501 (HBP 25) – “But Ron’s tolerance was not to be tested much as the moved into June, for Harry and Ginny’s time together was becoming increasingly restricted.” p. 501 (HBP 25) – “… Harry and Ginny’s time together was becoming increasingly restricted. Ginny’s O.W.L.s were approaching and she was therefore forced to revise for hours into the night.” And if Harry really wants to spend time with Ginny – and not just “happy hours” either, couldn’t he not help her study for her OWLs? There are enough required courses that Harry had taken for him to help her with at least those. But no, even Hermione seems to realise that Harry has no intention of helping Ginny with her OWLs – that Harry is trying to distract her from studying! We learn back in COS that Ginny had wanted to attend Hogwarts since she saw Bill off at the train and her big fear was being expelled. Then there was the pumpkin incident in COS when both Ginny and Hermione figured out how Hagrid was getting the pumpkins so big when Harry didn’t – meaning that education was something that had been important to Ginny for a long time. But you are right Purpleztar – Harry doesn’t seem to notice or care that Ginny is intelligent just as long as she doesn’t worry her, like you said “pretty little head” about anything important. p. 501 (HBP 25) – “… Harry was sitting beside the window in the common room, supposedly finishing his Herbology homework but in realitiy reliving a particularly happy hour he had spent down by the lake with Ginny at lunch-time, …” p. 501 (HBP 25) – “Only the previous day, Hermione had told him off for distracting Ginny when she ought to be working hard for her examinations.” But this is where it gets weird even for regular male hormones. DD is dead, Harry finally is spending all his time with Ginny and Ron/Hermione and all he can think of is all the snogging he would be getting in if DD had not died – that being with her is not enough/satisfactory on its own. It is stuff like this which makes one wonder if there is more than just male hormones going on – for example, something flowery, treacle-like and reminiscent of one of Harry’s two broom handles: p. 591 (HBP 30) – “Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together.” p. 591 (HBP 30) – “Harry could imagine how it would have been if Dumbledore had not died, and they had had this time together at the very end of the year, Ginny’s examinations finished, the pressure of homework lifted …” “A male garter snake courts anything that smells, to his flicking tongue, like a female …” / “… even a paper towel dipped in female pheromone. A paper towel is so obviously not a snake, … , that the only explanation is a complete pheromonal override of all snake sense.” http://forum.kingsnake.com/garter/messages/13789.html QUOTE wickedboy: Ahhhh! I get it now. So it was not Ginny that was the problem, it was Harry. Harry is a terrible male for any female and should have been avoided as either a boyfriend or mate, right? This is because in terms of his love interests: he did not give explanations, treats them worse than he treats his friends, You are not one for subtle sarcasm are you! Even if Harry is not acting under the influence (which I strongly question), it takes two to tango. It is up to Ginny to decide how she wants to be treated and if she loves herself for who she is more than she likes some guy. What Harry needed was someone who could give him what he needed in a life partner without giving up on herself and becoming a doormat. Adolescence is about sorting through competing expectations to become who you are rather than what someone else figures you should be. Ginny had the choice to be cool or not, to decide a relationship on her terms or not, to follow her dreams or not. Ron and Hermione went through a similar journey - the one where you distinguish between the person you are expected to be and the person you were meant to be – and that includes the expectations one has concerning how the other person should be. QUOTE Shard: Please tell me your joking.. Purpleztar: Nope. But maybe JKR was when she wrote H/G. Good comeback – even if the Medusa isn’t laughing (see Helene Cixous). Personally, I would like to know what spell witches use to make their bo smell pleasant or even flowery. I don’t think that Ginny (aka miss paper towel) was originally intended as Harry’s love interest – but that she sort of coopted the role due to JKR’s miscalculations. JKR figured that she could have someone long unrequitedly for the hero, seem to get him and it all turn out to be a fraud and get away with it – the readers would not stand for it. Viewers wanted Sam to get Diane in Cheers and Spike to get Buffy – even though neither of these men were good catches – but why is that? At least in the case of Diane, there were signs that she was interested in Sam early on – but in the absence of that! QUOTE Wickedboy: Also, what is wrong with women doing a makeover if they wish? Purpleztar: Characters don't get to wish anything. The author wishes it for them. Yes and no – JKR had a tendency to want to include too many subplots and her editors had a tendency to want JKR to scale them back – even back in PS/SS. I presume that the final result, as always, represents a compromise between writer and editors. QUOTE WalnutWandCarrier: Only when she's finally pretty and cool and unproblematic enough to deserve her whishes, … she's not demanding much, but content with the mere fact of somehow "having" Harry, lol "having" Harry. … and believing that she's done anything wrong and must therefore try harder to be suitable. Girls who spend that much time hoping for a guy who's never there and never gives them anything, any attention whatsoever, like Ginny for that enormous period of time, and also Cho for a while, are simply no great examples in children's litterature, end of story. That begs the question – if you have to put a great deal of effort in becoming suitable and staying suitable, are you really suitable? Also, despite his hatred of tears, if Harry figured he had a future with Ginny, he should have went over to where she was grieving with her family and comforted her. Don’t the vows say “for better or worse” – meaning that you deal with the tears even if they make you uncomfortable! QUOTE roonwit: Why would Harry be even slightly jealous? His romantic attentions were elsewhere at the time. It was only after his relationship with Cho had finished its disastrous course and he had got over her that he was open to other possibilities. Being with Cho did not stop Harry from thinking of Luna. And even if Harry is still stuck on Cho, he should have some feeling (or interest) at the news that Ginny was with what was presumably a desirable guy. Usually, one becomes more and more open to thinking about someone else as the relationship deteriorates – yet even at the time of the chocolate egg incident (when Harry and Cho were basically over), Harry had no interest what so ever in Ginny. QUOTE Me: At the end of HBP, Ginny seems to be referring to an earlier statement made by Hermione – how did Ginny know what Hermione said to Harry – unless they planned this together? roonwit: I doubt Ginny did know, she was just referring to Hermione's advice to her which was to give up on Harry (in the short term at least), and when Hermione speaks in OotP she is also referring to that same advice which she sees Ginny following. Of course Hermione realizes that Ginny is still fond of Harry - "Not that she doesn't like you, of course" (which is actually a big clue from the author that Harry and Ginny might get together in the future) - but at that point Ginny is looking elsewhere for romance. Ginny had reason to believe that Harry believed that Ginny had given up on him. We have Hermione, who is giving Ginny advice on how to get Harry telling Harry that Ginny HAS given up on him. Strange coincidence. Since we will probably agree to disagree on this: how would your view of Hermione change if she was as manipulative and interfering in Harry’s lovelife as I seem to think? Would it change your view of her? Would you consider her actions appropriate or inappropriate? I sense that no only do you not want to believe Hermione is being manipulative but that you figure that it would be inappropriate for her do be so since she is Harry’s friend. QUOTE roonwit: If Ginny was pursuing Harry in HBP we would see evidence of it, given Harry's developing feelings towards her, because he would definitely notice anything that suggested she might return his feelings, and it would also be "on page" because the Harry-Ginny story is one of the plot threads of HBP. One thing that always bugged me was when Ginny and Harry spent time with Ron presumably cheering him up while Hermione was at Slughorn’s parties. I don’t mean the part about Ginny teasing Ron about Cormac (which probably actually made Ron feel worse) – I mean where was Dean! Shouldn’t it be Ginny, Dean and Harry cheering up Ron? Same with Ginny’s friends, none of them are with her and Harry “cheering” Ron up? This post has been edited by vaudree: May 10 2009, 06:03 PM |
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May 10 2009, 05:37 PM
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#8
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Firebolt-Polisher at Quality Quidditch Supplies Posts: 1,083 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
Previous thread
QUOTE Wendall: Is this the same Snape who was so woefully ignorant of the girl he loved that he became a death eater to impress her. The same Snape who called her a mudblood. The same Snape who played a part in her death. Who was content to see her husband and child die so that he could have her. The one who abused her child for seven years. The one who never falls for anyone else cos he's so bloody obsessive. I presume that you have never uttered anything offensive when very hurt and angry. :rolleyes If you look at it that way, I guess Ginny and Snape do have something in common. I always figured that Snape would, from an early age, become stuck on someone imperfect whom he considered flawless and want the same woman his whole life, but Lily sounded to cliche and idolized. It makes sense for the plot, though. And if Snape lacked confidence in his youth, would he not be drawn towards someone who seemed to exude confidence? Tom Riddle had none of the advantages of a Lily or a James (not pampered or adored as a child) – but he drew people to him because he exuded confidence – just like they did. It is like the example of the girl wanting to be a doctor and growing up to be a doctor’s wife – people who lack confidence tend to be attracted to more confident people. p. 346 (HBP 17); p. 462 (HBP 23) – “Riddle smiled; the other boys laughed and cast him admiring looks.” p. 346 (HBP 17) – “Harry recognised Riddle at once. His was the most handsome face and he looked the most relaxed of all the boys.” p. 463 (HBP 23) – “Tom Riddle merely smiled as the others laughed again. Harry noticed that he was by no means the eldest of the group of boys, but that they all seemed to look to him as their leader.” QUOTE WalnutWandCarrier: The coolest boyfriend in the PV would, imo, be Neville. Neville is so awesome (already long before DH) !! Wickedboy: But I can't imagine all women would want a man like Neville. Isn't it really crushing to the female gender that their choice would be limited to this one male type? What if they wanted a man like Ron? Harry? Arthur? Cedric? They are horrid women for wanting this? Neville actually has a lot of qualities which would be good in a mate – the most important is that he respects women with being kind and caring and nurturing coming in close after – but he is not seen as “cool” or “confident”. However, the strange thing about Ron when it comes to Hermione or Ginny – either could spend a secluded afternoon practising charm spells in an empty classroom without raising Ron’s suspicions but if Cormac was to ask Hermione directions to Snape’s office then Ron would be ranting and raving about Hermione being a scarlet woman – because Ron sees Cormac as “cool” and confident – and, therefore, a threat. If Neville has many qualities one would like in an ideal mate, and Cormac basically has none, then why does Ron feel more threatened when it comes to Cormac than Neville? Although, technically Snape’s status was more similar to Black’s in that he wasn’t the bully leader, but the follower of a bully – the comparisons are between Snape and James. It doesn’t matter how bad James was or Mulciber was – only that they were both bullies and Snape failed to notice a difference between the two (as the memories indicate). Snape also saw James as his main competition – rather than some Neville-like character – so it was James (as Snape saw him) that he was trying to out do. Snape would not know that James had “changed” to get Lily to like him because James was still sticking it to Snape (and who knows who else) whenever he was away from Lily. Thus, as far as Snape knew, he was still competing against James the bully rather than James the “I don’t do that any more, honest.” One point that DD made with his “faceless” comment was that it was easier to accept the victimization of those you don’t know very well compared to those you do. Regulus was not in love with Kreacher but he knew Kreacher well enough to know that he did not deserve the fate that Voldemort set for him. Regulus knew Kreacher well enough to feel guilty about almost causing his death – and, more importantly, through Kreacher, Regulus went from being a loyal DE who thought it an honour to volunteer his Elf in the service of the Dark Lord to despising Voldemort and wishing him defeated. The one thing that we know about Mary McDonald was that Snape saw her as faceless while Lily did not. Considering that Bertram Aubrey was at the top of the pile, the opposite may have been the case about him: p. 739 (OOTP 37) – ‘… What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy? …’ QUOTE Harrys Horntail: All relationships involve compromise, and yes I think Ginny compromises when she stands back and lets Harry go off without her. But I don't think this is because she is weak and supplicating herself to his will. She can't go with him; she isn't stupid and knows that the trace will flash to their whereabouts whenever magic is used in her presence. So she makes her own decision to stay at school and do what she can from her side. How is that weak? We may not see her thought process here, but we know enough about her from past and future books to know that she isn't passive so if she appears passive here she has a reason. At least you are admitting that Ginny seems more passive than one would expect from her based on what we know about her. The trace is a reason no one mentions, though the thought that Molly (who has a false but idealised image of Ginny as being dainty and delicate) putting a stop to her going anywhere has come up. I did not like Harry playing “Father Knows Best” when Molly (especially) was browbeating a Ginny trying to stick up for herself and make her own choices. What do you think Ginny needs in a guy and which Harry is Ginny in love with (using the metaphors Clark Kent and Superman)? Ginny feels “overly coddled and over-protected” through-out the book and seems to only manage to be herself by stealth – leading some to think that she finally gave in and lost the battle. When Ginny wanted to play Quidditch with her brothers and they never let her, why didn’t Molly step in? Why did Ginny have to sneak out in the middle of the night and use her brother’s brooms without their permission? Why does Ginny rat on Percy in COS and rat on Hermione in HBP? Re Getting each other: Harry looks over at a Ron who is very upset and Ginny fills him in as to why Ron is upset. Harry arrives at the Burrow in DH and Ginny answers the same question everyone else had when they arrived. Ginny walks in when Hermione and Harry are arguing about whether the book is dangerous – which brings up the obvious tie in as to when Ginny trusted a book. Most of these are contextual – based on something that just happened or a conversation that was already going on. Luna takes one look at Harry and realises that he needs a break from the crowds. QUOTE hg1: What I find worrying about the Harry/Ginny relationship is, that he confides nothing at all with her. Except for one scene in book 5, they don't really talk about anything important at all. Nor was he on her side, when she wanted to stay in Hogwarts to fight. The relationship, as it is described in the book, is as shallow, as they get, because we never see them connect on a deeper level at all. they just snog and that's all. I don’t like it that Harry was not on Ginny’s side either. Ginny is not made of glass and, even if she was, she did not deserve to sit on a shelf while history was being decided without her. Her perfect man would have understood that. Then again, I think that the twins should have been a bit more humble during Percy’s apology – such as admitting that they could be gits as well. QUOTE wickedboy: My bottom line is as always, that romance was not emphasized in the book. So what was all that snogging about in HBP – light comic relief? QUOTE Harrys Horntail: I still don't see how an obsessive passion in a mate is something to be desired. Even by itself, even taking away all the other dreadful things about the guy, that one thing: obsession and focus only on the girl is abhorrent to me. I wouldn't want this type of love, and if that's what people think girls want in a guy, then it's no wonder you don't like the relationships as they appear in the books. What about girls who only focus on the guy – not Snape on Lily or Black on James so much as Bellatrix on Voldemort and Ginny on Harry? QUOTE Harrys Horntail: I don't see this. At all. They are in a secluded passageway with no expectation that someone would find them, nor that that person would be Harry. I don’t have the other quote right now – but this isn’t a route that Harry and Ron took by chance but the one they tended to take regularly. And, since Ginny and Dean had just come from practice, Ginny should have expected Harry and Ron to be along any minutes. Also, they were kissing very passionately and fiercely – so they hadn’t been at it long. p. 268 (HBP 14) – “When Harry pushed open the tapestry to take their usual short cut up to Gryffindor Tower, however, they found themselves looking at Dean and Ginny, …” QUOTE Purpleztar: Well, I think you're exaggerating here and deliberately misunderstanding my point. I've never said Harry should fall for an ugly and unpleasant girl, where did you get that from? There are many shades of grey between Ginny and Pansy. Though they both seem to be attracted to what, according to the beliefs they grew up with, would be construed as the “hero” aspect of the wizard in question. Pansy liked the “Superman” aspect of Draco so much that when he was “Clark Kent” complaining about kryptonite, he had to talk to Myrtle rather than Pansy. Ginny is always referring to Harry as being a hero and, even as late as HBP, she tells him this is what she likes about him. QUOTE Purpleztar: After their parents, their favourite teachers, the guy who was in love with their mother... but not after the brother they've lost in the battle. Hm. Agree with whoever said that the name was already taken – George named his son after Fred and Percy named one of his daughters Molly. What doesn’t make sense though is why Ginny named her only daughter after Luna and Luna named one of her twin sons after Ginny’s great grandmother. Also, doesn’t twins run in Ginny’s family – with both Molly and Molly’s mother giving birth to a set of male twins! Can’t complain about Albus Severus – there is something instantly likeable about him and Rose. If Harry was married to anyone other than Ginny then Albus Severus and Rose could hook up eventually. Hope Rose is more Gosalyn Mallard - what a girl should be like. |
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May 10 2009, 06:00 PM
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#9
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The Other Half of the DDD Posts: 4,945 Joined: 10:10am March 16, 2007 Location: Marauding with Moony, Padfoot and Prongs |
QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ May 10 2009, 08:40 PM) QUOTE Harry was the victim of a hunting - by a murderous dark lord. He didn't want Ginny involved in that. which has chauvinistic traits. It is her decision, and her's alone. Not letting her do something, even something dangerous, is oppressive (wanting to hold her back from the Hogwarts battle). How is that chauvinistic? Just because she's female? Harry didn't want Ron and Hermione to get involved with the Horcrux hunt at first, not out of sexism (in Hermione's case), but because he couldn't bear the thought of people he loved being hurt, or even killed. It was the same with Ginny. And I might point out, she wasn't of age during the Battle of Hogwarts, and underaged students were not allowed to fight. QUOTE QUOTE I don't buy the idea that Harry deserved no wife just because his life was a disaster (being chased by Voldy and the DEs). But he did need someone who was understanding, Every man who puts his career first needs an understanding wife. (the Voldy-hunting is metaphorical here) And where's the evidence that Harry put his career before Ginny? Metaphorical or not, I would have thought hunting down and destroying the wizard responsible for ripping apart his family, plus many more, was more important at the time than his love life. QUOTE QUOTE "One doesn't go looking for someone who is plain, unpopular and disagrees with their every move. That just makes no sense to me." Of course it doesn't. As a male apparently accustomed, like many men, to girls agreeing with their every move. It is no surprise so many men fancy Ginny in this thread. Well to me, that statement smacks of sexism. Is that not stereotyping men, suggesting that the majority of them prefer women who agree with their every whim? And where is your evidence that many of the males posting in this thread fancy Ginny? Because they're defending her? I'm female, I'm perfectly capable of making my own decisions without a man telling me what to do, yet I still have no problem with Ginny's character throughout the series, no matter how many times I've read it. QUOTE QUOTE "You want them to be at one another's throats like Ron and Hermione? That is only one type of relationship. I hate arguing all the time, so that type would not work for me, for instance Surely it wouldn't. If you're considering an independant, individual woman as someone who goes at your throat. See what you're saying here? That a woman who doesn't accept everything, is immediatly a complete psycho attacking your person, a horrible disgusting weirdo (as you clearly suggested). You don't seem to have a concept of what "an independent, individual woman" means. Where does the poster "clearly suggest" that a woman who doesn't accept what the man says is a complete psycho? They're talking about a relationship in general, where both parties are at each others' throats, not just the woman, so I think your assumption that they "don't have a concept of what an independent, individual woman" is, is completely unfair. QUOTE QUOTE "where she stays in the RoR but at her first opportunity she's out of there"[/color] And I'm relieved she went. What I'm not relieved about, though, is that she stayed with a man who tries to withhold her from doing things she wants to do, like she were his child, and not supporting her in her activities. (metaphorically speaking) I'm sorry, but where's the evidence that Ginny stayed with a man who tried to with hold her from doing what she wants apart from this one occasion, where her own mother forbade her from going to fight? She was underage, her own parents forbade her from fighting (does that make them sexist?), so was Harry supposed to go against their wishes and tell Ginny she could fight? After that, we see them nineteen years later, with nothing to suggest that Ginny has been held back by Harry in any way. This post has been edited by SnapesSister: May 10 2009, 06:19 PM -------------------- |
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May 10 2009, 06:07 PM
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#10
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Gringotts Goblin Translator Posts: 1,237 Joined: 3:47pm November 27, 2006 Location: Dublin |
QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ May 10 2009, 08:40 PM) QUOTE Harry was the victim of a hunting - by a murderous dark lord. He didn't want Ginny involved in that. which has chauvinistic traits. It is her decision, and her's alone. Not letting her do something, even something dangerous, is oppressive (wanting to hold her back from the Hogwarts battle). It's her decision whether she fights or not. But it's not just her decision as the whether she goes with the Harry on the horcrux hunt. Harry has every right to say she can't go with him there, just like every person has the right to choose their company. QUOTE QUOTE "One doesn't go looking for someone who is plain, unpopular and disagrees with their every move. That just makes no sense to me." (bold mine)Of course it doesn't. As a male apparently accustomed, like many men, to girls agreeing with their every move. It is no surprise so many men fancy Ginny in this thread. I don't think many of the men on this thread necessarily fancy Ginny. We just don't see a problem with Ginny and Harry's relationship, or with Ginny's behaviour in the books. I don't want to speak for all the men here, but I don't see anything wrong with Ginny dating Michael and Dean, even tho she still has feelings for Harry. I don't see anything wrong with Ginny accepting the fact that she can't force her company on Harry during the horcrux hunt, or that she can't stop him dumping her. And I don't know what century you're living in, but men no longer expect girls to agree with our every move. QUOTE QUOTE "You want them to be at one another's throats like Ron and Hermione? That is only one type of relationship. I hate arguing all the time, so that type would not work for me, for instance" Surely it wouldn't. If you're considering an independant, individual woman as someone who goes at your throat. See what you're saying here? That a woman who doesn't accept everything, is immediatly a complete psycho attacking your person, a horrible disgusting weirdo (as you clearly suggested). You don't seem to have a concept of what "an independent, individual woman" means. Again, I don't really like to speak for another poster, but where is it clearly suggested that a woman who doesn't accept everything is a complete psycho or a horrible, disgusting weirdo? That isn't suggested at all, as far as I can see. Harry and Ginny don't argue much, as far as we see. And for some reason this is being criticised. The fact that Ginny doesn't argue with everything Harry says apparently makes her a doormat in some people's eyes. Ron and Hermione do argue alot. This is what this poster contrasted Harry and Ginny with. But where does it say that Hermione, who doesn't accept everything Ron says, is a psycho or a horrible disgusting weirdo? QUOTE And I'm relieved she went. What I'm not relieved about, though, is that she stayed with a man who tries to withhold her from doing things she wants to do, like she were his child, and not supporting her in her activities. (metaphorically speaking) So you're criticising Harry for not wanting Ginny to get hurt. For wanting Ginny to be safe. You didn't criticise Arthur and Molly. Why is this? And what's wrong with not wanting loved ones to be in danger. Is this a fault now? Harry also didn't want Ginny, Neville and Luna to go to the ministry in OOTP. He didn't want the body doubles to risk their lives in the 7 Potters. He didn't want any more people to die in the Battle of Hogwarts. Is this also bad? Should he have been perfectly content to see his friends risk their lives? |
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