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The Hobbit Chapter Discussions, Chapters 15-19
Perenelle
post Jul 6 2008, 12:41 PM
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Chapter 15 - The Gathering of the Clouds.

The birds are gathering, and an ancient Raven by the name of Roac relays the news to the dwarves that Smaug is dead, and that there are many with an interest in his treasure: birds, elves, and lake-men are all planning on claiming a share. The dwarves retreat into the mountain and fortify the entrance. Parties from the Elvenking and Bard himself come to talk to Thorin and to ask for a share of Smaug's stolen treasure. Thorin declares exception to their arms and refuses to discuss the matter, which results in the mountain being put under siege.

Chapter 16 - A Thief in the Night.

As more dwarves are on their way to aid Thorin, he declares his determination to stand fast, and Bilbo makes a decision. He takes the Arkenstone, takes over Bombur's watch, and sneaks away to visit the camp. He demands that the elves take him to Bard. He gives him the news that Dain and five hundred dwarves are only two days away, and gives him the Arkenstone to use in his bargaining for a share of the treasure. He is then surprised by Gandalf, who cheers his actions, and says that "there is news brewing that even the ravens have not heard."

Chapter 17 - The Clouds Burst.

A party from the camp. including the Elvenking, Bard and and Gandalf (covered in a cloak) come to Thorin and offer him the Arkenstone. Bilbo immediately admits that he gave it to them, and Thorin shakes him in anger. However the stone is too important to him and he promises that he will give one fourteenth share of the treasure in return for the stone, and casts Bilbo away.

Dain's army arrives with many provisions. Bard's messengers return to Thorin but are met with nothing but arrows. As the battle is about to begin, a huge cloud of bats appears and Gandalf declares that the Goblins are coming. Goblins are the enemy of all, and so begins the Battle of Five Armies - Goblins and wolves vs men, dwarves and elves. The battle is fierce and bloody, and the goblins looked to be winning, when the eagles appear. Bilbo is struck and collapses.

Chapter 18 - The Return Journey.

When Bilbo awakes he is alone. He is discovered and brought to see Thorin, who lies dying. They part as friends. Bilbo learns that the battle was saved not only by the eagles, but also by Beorn who killed the goblin leader. Thorin is buried and Dain becomes King of the Mountain. Bilbo learns that Fili and Kili also died in the battle. Bard is given a fourteenth share of the treasure for the Arkenstone which he share with the elves and lake-men. Bilbo take just two chests; one of silver and one of gold. Bilbo is helped on his return journey by Gandalf and Beorn.

Chapter 19 - The Last Stage.

After spending time with Beorn, Gandalf and Bilbo continue to Rivendell where they stay with Elrond. Gandalf explains that he had been to a council of wizards who had driven the Necromancer from teh forest of Mirkwood. After a week they continue their journey, finding along the way the buried gold of the trolls, which Bilbo gives to Gandalf. They arrive back in Hobbiton just in the middle of an auction of Bilbo's possessions, of which he has lost quite a few. He is, however, rich and manages to buy back most of them, although the 'legal bother' takes years. He has also lost his reputation amongst the hobbits.

Years later Gandalf and Balin visit, and tell Bilbo that Bard has become King of Dale, which is now prosperous again, as is the whole area under the mountain.

________________________


These are questions that occurred to me whilst reading these chapters, but you are of course welcome to discuss any aspect of them you choose.

- Did Thorin really object to the fact that the elves and lake-men were armed, or was it an excuse to refuse to share the treasure?
- Why do you think Thorin is affected by lust for treasure more than the other dwarves?
- Was it bravery or cowardice that prompted Bilbo to hand the Arkenstone over to Bard?
- Why are the dwarves, elves and men so quick to forget their quarrels in the face of the goblin attack?
- Were you sad when Thorin, Kili and Fili died? Did you expect there to be more casualties?
- How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened?
- Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented?


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Perenelle
post Jul 9 2008, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 11:55 PM) *
QUOTE(Fricka @ Jul 6 2008, 07:54 PM) *
Good Questions, Perenelle!
It's hard to believe we are at the end of the book already!
They sure are, and it sure is. Rereading The Hobbit has been a real pleasure.
Well thank you! I've really enjoyed reading everyone posts about this book too. It's seems there's a lot to discuss in there!
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 11:55 PM) *
Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented? The loss of his reputation among the other Hobbits? No, I dont think so. It's sad that the fact of taking an adventure causes one to lose respect because this reveals the uglier side of the seemingly harmonious Hobbit lifestyle, where everything is green and pleasant. In fact, anyone different (or, not normal) is not considered part of decent Hobbit society. I dont think he was that upset by the new attitudes toward him. Had he become depressed or saddened by this, then I guess it would have been to be lamented. But, Bilbo didnt care. He wrote his book, he gave away much of his treasure, and he lived how he wanted without worrying what anyone thought of him. How freeing that must have been.
He didnt lose his reputation with those that mattered, Gandalf, Frodo, and the peoples that he encountered on his adventure. In fact his reputation only increased with them.
It's not worth trying to impress prejudiced people because they cant be impressed so, personally I dont think the way the Hobbits saw him is to be lamented because Bilbo wasnt negatively affected by it. He wasnt ostracized or exiled, they just left him alone and that was fine by him. Maybe before it would have mattered to him but, he'd been there and back again and was a different Hobbit now, one that could cope without a pocket handkerchief or second breakfast. He still likes his comfort and food but I guess when you've faced giant spiders and dragons, the prejudice of some of your neighbors doesnt count for a whole lot in comparison.
I agree that as Bilbo seems happy it really doesn't matter too much, but it does seem a shame to me that he has lost some harmony with his neighbours. But if it isn't important to him then it isn't important!

QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jul 9 2008, 06:08 AM) *
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 04:55 PM) *
QUOTE
- How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened?
I dont think that Gandalf knew the outcome before it happened but I do think he knows a lot about a lot of things, like he knew almost immediately that Bilbo had found the Ring, and immediately he picked up on the fact that Bilbo was acting out of character by being deceitful. I think Gandalf uses his immense knowledge and understanding with foresight to correctly anticipate events, and figure out what's going on and what will likely happen.

I agree, I don't think Gandalph can see the future, but he can make certain judgements based on his knowledge of people and events (rather like Dumbledore, I imagine). I think he was important in the battle because he is seen as a powerful ally, and as long as he is still fighting, then there is still hope for victory.

I'm intrigued by his character. I've never read Lord of The Rings (nor watched the films) so I'm sure there's is loads more about him that I don't know, but I can't help wondering why he left it so long to tell people that the goblins were coming. It's as if he was waiting for the opportune moment, like he knew it would have more of an effect if the others were all geared up to fight each other, then, like you say Pyxis, they were all ready to form a united front against them; I felt that he was controlling everyone that way. ponder.gif


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Moose_Starr
post Jul 10 2008, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(Perenelle @ Jul 9 2008, 04:52 PM) *
I agree that as Bilbo seems happy it really doesn't matter too much, but it does seem a shame to me that he has lost some harmony with his neighbours. But if it isn't important to him then it isn't important!
To confuse matters by quoting Dumbledore, yes ... and no. tongue.gif
It is important. And, it is a shame that the harmony has been disrupted by (in my opinion) it's this that should be lamented, and not Bilbo. He seems totally indifferent to his neighbor's attitudes. That's not to say he's ignorant of them, or unaware of the change of feeling but, he just doesnt care. And it seems to me that he genuinely is not upset by them. Like some people say they dont care when someone shuns them but inside they're really hurting. Bilbo seems to not care, he has the respect of the people that matter to him. The thing to be lamented is this idyll (sp?) or idealic (also sp?) view we have of Hobbit society is shattered. It's not all cosy burrows and second breakfast. It's actually just as full of prejudice and discrimination and bigotry as any society. Bilbo is now *different* because he has done something that is considered *not normal* and his neighbors have changed their attitude to him. If Bilbo had done something terrible then this could be understandable. But, he has had an adventure, which in itself is harmless enough, it has affected no on eexcept Bilbo and those he encountered on his adventure, but the neighbors disapprove and thus shun him. This is to be lamented because it says a lot about the Hobbit society and culture.


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