The Hobbit Chapter Discussions, Chapters 15-19 |
 Jul 6 2008, 12:41 PM
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Loyal Lockhart Fan  Posts: 4,285 Joined: 10:42am February 15, 2005 Location: Embracing my Inner Slytherin   |
Chapter 15 - The Gathering of the Clouds. The birds are gathering, and an ancient Raven by the name of Roac relays the news to the dwarves that Smaug is dead, and that there are many with an interest in his treasure: birds, elves, and lake-men are all planning on claiming a share. The dwarves retreat into the mountain and fortify the entrance. Parties from the Elvenking and Bard himself come to talk to Thorin and to ask for a share of Smaug's stolen treasure. Thorin declares exception to their arms and refuses to discuss the matter, which results in the mountain being put under siege. Chapter 16 - A Thief in the Night. As more dwarves are on their way to aid Thorin, he declares his determination to stand fast, and Bilbo makes a decision. He takes the Arkenstone, takes over Bombur's watch, and sneaks away to visit the camp. He demands that the elves take him to Bard. He gives him the news that Dain and five hundred dwarves are only two days away, and gives him the Arkenstone to use in his bargaining for a share of the treasure. He is then surprised by Gandalf, who cheers his actions, and says that "there is news brewing that even the ravens have not heard." Chapter 17 - The Clouds Burst. A party from the camp. including the Elvenking, Bard and and Gandalf (covered in a cloak) come to Thorin and offer him the Arkenstone. Bilbo immediately admits that he gave it to them, and Thorin shakes him in anger. However the stone is too important to him and he promises that he will give one fourteenth share of the treasure in return for the stone, and casts Bilbo away. Dain's army arrives with many provisions. Bard's messengers return to Thorin but are met with nothing but arrows. As the battle is about to begin, a huge cloud of bats appears and Gandalf declares that the Goblins are coming. Goblins are the enemy of all, and so begins the Battle of Five Armies - Goblins and wolves vs men, dwarves and elves. The battle is fierce and bloody, and the goblins looked to be winning, when the eagles appear. Bilbo is struck and collapses. Chapter 18 - The Return Journey. When Bilbo awakes he is alone. He is discovered and brought to see Thorin, who lies dying. They part as friends. Bilbo learns that the battle was saved not only by the eagles, but also by Beorn who killed the goblin leader. Thorin is buried and Dain becomes King of the Mountain. Bilbo learns that Fili and Kili also died in the battle. Bard is given a fourteenth share of the treasure for the Arkenstone which he share with the elves and lake-men. Bilbo take just two chests; one of silver and one of gold. Bilbo is helped on his return journey by Gandalf and Beorn. Chapter 19 - The Last Stage. After spending time with Beorn, Gandalf and Bilbo continue to Rivendell where they stay with Elrond. Gandalf explains that he had been to a council of wizards who had driven the Necromancer from teh forest of Mirkwood. After a week they continue their journey, finding along the way the buried gold of the trolls, which Bilbo gives to Gandalf. They arrive back in Hobbiton just in the middle of an auction of Bilbo's possessions, of which he has lost quite a few. He is, however, rich and manages to buy back most of them, although the 'legal bother' takes years. He has also lost his reputation amongst the hobbits. Years later Gandalf and Balin visit, and tell Bilbo that Bard has become King of Dale, which is now prosperous again, as is the whole area under the mountain. ________________________ These are questions that occurred to me whilst reading these chapters, but you are of course welcome to discuss any aspect of them you choose. - Did Thorin really object to the fact that the elves and lake-men were armed, or was it an excuse to refuse to share the treasure? - Why do you think Thorin is affected by lust for treasure more than the other dwarves? - Was it bravery or cowardice that prompted Bilbo to hand the Arkenstone over to Bard? - Why are the dwarves, elves and men so quick to forget their quarrels in the face of the goblin attack? - Were you sad when Thorin, Kili and Fili died? Did you expect there to be more casualties? - How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened? - Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented? -------------------- |
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Jul 6 2008, 04:54 PM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter  Posts: 2,037 Joined: 3:59pm May 15, 2008 Location: Sunny Phoenix, Arizona("It's a Dry Heat!")  |
Good Questions, Perenelle!
It's hard to believe we are at the end of the book already! I am going to try to answer some of the questions and come back and edit for the others later. 1.--Did Thorin really object to the fact that the elves and lake-men were armed, or was it an excuse to refuse to share the treasure? Mostly the latter, I think, although it's a bit difficult to tell, with dwarves. Possibly the lake-men being armed would not have alarmed him as much, since they had just been attacked by Smaug(somewhat the dwarves' fault, for arousing him in the first place!). However, the antipathy that dwarves feel toward elves would have made the partnership of the men and elves more objectionable to Thorin. And lastly, it's entirely possible that the treasure-lust, of seeing all of Smaug's horde would have raised Thorin's greed level to where he would not be willing to share with anyone but another dwarf. In fact, I'm not so sure but what he would have tried to talk Bilbo out of most of his 14th/share, had enough time elapsed. 2. --Why do you think Thorin is affected by lust for treasure more than the other dwarves? Good question! I think it is because he is the oldest and most powerful of them. Because he is the oldest, he still remembers what it was like before Smaug came, and he remembers being driven out of the mountain. So it's really like coming back to his home-land for him, after being a sojourner for so long. His seeing the treasure just ignites all the dwarvish bad traits at once. 3. --Was it bravery of cowardice that prompted Bilbo to hand the Arkenstone over to Bard? I believe it was bravery. Had Bilbo really been cowardly at this point, he wouldn't have dared to take the Arkenstone in the first place. His taking the stone shows some prescience, as he couldn't have known at that time that he would be able to use it to get Thorin to come to reason. Also, had he been truly a coward, he wouldn't have gone back to the dwarves. He could have stayed with the elves and lake-men. They half-way expected him to, clearly. He also admits to being the one to take the stone and give it to the elves and lake-men when Thorin is confronted by their having the stone. These actions show courage, not cowardice, as far as I am concerned. (As Dumbledore said in Sorcerer's Stone, a person(or hobbit) needs more courage to stand against his friends than against his enemies.) 4. --Why are the dwarves, elves, and men so quick to forget their quarrels in the face of the goblin attack? I think it is mainly because the stakes are so much higher with the goblins. We know from reading Tolkien what happens to elves who are captured by goblins, and Thorin knows what happened to his father who was put in a goblin prison. I'm not sure what the goblins would have done with the men, but rest assured, it wouldn't have been pleasant for the men! The quarrels the dwarves have with the elves and men are more like skirmishes of rivals that veer between friendly/unfriendly jousting. The goblins present more of an all-out war, and they are extremely dangerous to all three of the groups. 5. Were you sad when Thorin, Kili, and Fili died? Did you expect there to be more casualties? I will come back to this later. I am feeling quite anti-Thorin at present, and will come back when I've had more time to reflect. 6. How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened? I will come back to this later. 7. Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented? I presume you refer to his loss of reputation within the Hobbit community. In the groups of the dwarves, elves, men, and Gandalf, he gained quite a bit of respect, which we see in The Fellowship of the Ring. As Bilbo himself did not mind it, I would say that it really wasn't something to be lamented. The younger hobbits like Frodo did not lose respect for him, and as for the ones like the Sackville-Bagginses, I don't think he lost any sleep over losing their regard--after all, they had tried to declare him dead and were sellling off his possessions when he got back to Bag-End! If anything, the loss of reputation saved him the trouble of having to entertain hobbits whom he didn't like. -------------------- "And now, Harry, let us step out into the night and pursue that flighty temptress, adventure."
Phoenix avatar courtesy of ofenjen; thanks to atschpe for help |
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Jul 6 2008, 05:55 PM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man Posts: 11,144 Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005 Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape |
QUOTE(Fricka @ Jul 6 2008, 07:54 PM)  Good Questions, Perenelle! They sure are, and it sure is. Rereading The Hobbit has been a real pleasure. Other than HP and Artemis Fowl, I'm not a great rereader of books. I keep all my books but unlike movies where I can happily watch the same movie a zillion times over, I cant seem to bring myself to reread books very easily (like, rarely) but rereading The Hobbit was fun, discussing it was awesome, and theorizing was so cool because so many different thoughts and theories were put forward that I hadnt even considered, and it made me go back and look again and think *oh yeah* It's hard to believe we are at the end of the book already!  QUOTE(Perenelle @ Jul 6 2008, 03:41 PM) - Did Thorin really object to the fact that the elves and lake-men were armed, or was it an excuse to refuse to share the treasure? Personally I think it's a bit of both. It was an excuse but, from the dwarfs point of view anyhows it was a valid and logical excuse. They have been an insular and self-reliant people. If they need help, they'll call on other dwarfs even if that means waiting a mighty long time for assistance. Seeing the elfs & lake-men bearing arms against them possibly reinforced Thorin's belief that everyone else is out to get them, hostile, anti-dwarf, warfaring and not to be trusted. But, it did give him a convenient excuse to refuse to share the treasure. QUOTE - Why do you think Thorin is affected by lust for treasure more than the other dwarves? In my opinion, he sees himself as the rightful heir. Period. He was there when Smaug brought devastation on their home. He can say that he was one of the original group. And, he sees himself as the son of the son of Thror, the one that's sung about and has tales told about, therefore it's his treasure so his lust for it is all the more powerful because he's driven by the feeling that what's his is his. QUOTE - Was it bravery or cowardice that prompted Bilbo to hand the Arkenstone over to Bard? I think it's bravery, or courage. It took a lot of courage to do the right thing, and it wasnt easy physically either, like it wasnt as though he could just walk out there and hand the stone over to Bard. He had to sneak out and climb through the cave opening. Bilbo had been concealing the stone and the secret from his friends all this time, yet he overcame his own desire for the stone, and also overcame any influence that the Ring may have been beginning to have on him, to commit a selfless act in the hopes of ending the rivalry and impending battle between the dwarfs and everyone outside. Cowardice would have been to pretend to find the stone and give it to Thorin and get all the due praise and admiration, or simply to leave it someplace for Thorin to *find* and do whatever he wants with it. QUOTE - Why are the dwarves, elves and men so quick to forget their quarrels in the face of the goblin attack? Because they were quarrels. When it comes down to it, it was showmanship, vanity, self-importance and quarrels. Goblins dont quarrel. They get straight down to business, they kill without a second thought, they have no remorse or compassion. The Dwarfs, elfs, men & wizard knew that if they didnt put their differences and attitudes aside, they'd go the same way as the poor ponies and end up being on the dinner menu. The quarrels were set aside for practical reasons. I dont think they will have been quickly forgottenm or all of them become best friends immediately, but it was the first step on the vital road to a Fellowship. QUOTE - Were you sad when Thorin, Kili and Fili died? Did you expect there to be more casualties? Yes I did expect more casualties, especially after the huge destruction and devastation of Lake town with its many casualties. And, I was sad but I can be overly sentimental. I think Fili and Kili were all right, they were dwarfs but they were good guys really. Thorin was a typical dwarf of the time, his main concern was the treasure, and mainly getting the treasure for himself. He showed himself to be selfish, self-centered and uncaring about other peoples. He'd do anything to not share or be indebted to anyone, so as not to have to share his treasure. But, I felt that he was growing. He was a very old dwarf who had seen terrible losses as a young dwarf. He had lived all his life with the resentment of seeing Smaug destroy everything around him. And dwarfs love treasure by nature. But, I think he was finally beginning to see the light and accept that maybe it's not all about him, or about treasure but there are more important things, like friendship and fellowship. It's very difficult to change a very long life's worth of behavior and attitudes in the time of a very short adventure but I think Thorin was starting to look beyond his mountain and his treasure, and see the bigger picture so I was sad that he didnt get a chance to work on this. QUOTE - How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened? I dont think that Gandalf knew the outcome before it happened but I do think he knows a lot about a lot of things, like he knew almost immediately that Bilbo had found the Ring, and immediately he picked up on the fact that Bilbo was acting out of character by being deceitful. I think Gandalf uses his immense knowledge and understanding with foresight to correctly anticipate events, and figure out what's going on and what will likely happen. We dont see much of Gandalf's role in how he got from the edge of Mirkwood to sitting outside the cave but I think there were at least two important roles he had. Already, the Dwarfs and Bilbo respect Gandalf and his opinion, and feel safe when he's around. Also, Gandalf likely had a similar influence on the Lake-men and Elfs, making them see reason, calming them enough that they might think clearly and not rush into some battle, and he would have given them the same sense of security while Gandalf's around with his wisdom and knowledge and magic. QUOTE - Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented? The loss of his reputation among the other Hobbits? No, I dont think so. It's sad that the fact of taking an adventure causes one to lose respect because this reveals the uglier side of the seemingly harmonious Hobbit lifestyle, where everything is green and pleasant. In fact, anyone different (or, not normal) is not considered part of decent Hobbit society. I dont think he was that upset by the new attitudes toward him. Had he become depressed or saddened by this, then I guess it would have been to be lamented. But, Bilbo didnt care. He wrote his book, he gave away much of his treasure, and he lived how he wanted without worrying what anyone thought of him. How freeing that must have been. He didnt lose his reputation with those that mattered, Gandalf, Frodo, and the peoples that he encountered on his adventure. In fact his reputation only increased with them. It's not worth trying to impress prejudiced people because they cant be impressed so, personally I dont think the way the Hobbits saw him is to be lamented because Bilbo wasnt negatively affected by it. He wasnt ostracized or exiled, they just left him alone and that was fine by him. Maybe before it would have mattered to him but, he'd been there and back again and was a different Hobbit now, one that could cope without a pocket handkerchief or second breakfast. He still likes his comfort and food but I guess when you've faced giant spiders and dragons, the prejudice of some of your neighbors doesnt count for a whole lot in comparison. --------------------   I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.  When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan Thanks Jeff! |
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Jul 9 2008, 12:08 AM
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Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit  Posts: 2,632 Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007 |
- Did Thorin really object to the fact that the elves and lake-men were armed, or was it an excuse to refuse to share the treasure?
I think it was an excuse not to share, had they come unarmed he would have found a different reason. *stamping feet* It's mine mine mine! (Okay, so I'm a little anti-Thorin at the moment too  )- Why do you think Thorin is affected by lust for treasure more than the other dwarves? I agree with the others, here, Thorin is the heir of the King of the Mountain...it's his home his treasure, and the other dwarves seemed to accept that as well, since none of them appeared to dispute his right to the Arkenstone. - Was it bravery or cowardice that prompted Bilbo to hand the Arkenstone over to Bard? I think what made it brave was admitting openly to Thorin what he had done. He went back to face him, hobbit to dwarf, and did not try to conceal his part in the process. I admire that kind of courage, it has taken me a lifetime of learning that it's always best to own up to your actions rather than try to duck responsibility by hiding behind others. - Why are the dwarves, elves and men so quick to forget their quarrels in the face of the goblin attack? I think nothing is so effective at achieving unity than a common enemy. We see it play out in our real life all the time, where neighborly squabbles give way to a unified front in the face of natural disaster or outside threat. I view the goblins as being very antisocial themselves, their main tool being brute strength to achieve power, but there is no loyalty..just mindless attack. QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 04:55 PM) QUOTE - How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened? I dont think that Gandalf knew the outcome before it happened but I do think he knows a lot about a lot of things, like he knew almost immediately that Bilbo had found the Ring, and immediately he picked up on the fact that Bilbo was acting out of character by being deceitful. I think Gandalf uses his immense knowledge and understanding with foresight to correctly anticipate events, and figure out what's going on and what will likely happen. I agree, I don't think Gandalph can see the future, but he can make certain judgements based on his knowledge of people and events (rather like Dumbledore, I imagine). I think he was important in the battle because he is seen as a powerful ally, and as long as he is still fighting, then there is still hope for victory. QUOTE QUOTE - Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented? The loss of his reputation among the other Hobbits? No, I dont think so. It's sad that the fact of taking an adventure causes one to lose respect because this reveals the uglier side of the seemingly harmonious Hobbit lifestyle, where everything is green and pleasant. In fact, anyone different (or, not normal) is not considered part of decent Hobbit society. I dont think he was that upset by the new attitudes toward him. Had he become depressed or saddened by this, then I guess it would have been to be lamented. But, Bilbo didnt care. He wrote his book, he gave away much of his treasure, and he lived how he wanted without worrying what anyone thought of him. How freeing that must have been. He didnt lose his reputation with those that mattered, Gandalf, Frodo, and the peoples that he encountered on his adventure. In fact his reputation only increased with them. It's not worth trying to impress prejudiced people because they cant be impressed so, personally I dont think the way the Hobbits saw him is to be lamented because Bilbo wasnt negatively affected by it. He wasnt ostracized or exiled, they just left him alone and that was fine by him. Maybe before it would have mattered to him but, he'd been there and back again and was a different Hobbit now, one that could cope without a pocket handkerchief or second breakfast. He still likes his comfort and food but I guess when you've faced giant spiders and dragons, the prejudice of some of your neighbors doesnt count for a whole lot in comparison. Well said. |
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Jul 9 2008, 01:52 PM
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Loyal Lockhart Fan Posts: 4,285 Joined: 10:42am February 15, 2005 Location: Embracing my Inner Slytherin |
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 11:55 PM) QUOTE(Fricka @ Jul 6 2008, 07:54 PM) Good Questions, Perenelle! They sure are, and it sure is. Rereading The Hobbit has been a real pleasure.It's hard to believe we are at the end of the book already! QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 11:55 PM) Is the loss of Bilbo's reputation something to be lamented? The loss of his reputation among the other Hobbits? No, I dont think so. It's sad that the fact of taking an adventure causes one to lose respect because this reveals the uglier side of the seemingly harmonious Hobbit lifestyle, where everything is green and pleasant. In fact, anyone different (or, not normal) is not considered part of decent Hobbit society. I dont think he was that upset by the new attitudes toward him. Had he become depressed or saddened by this, then I guess it would have been to be lamented. But, Bilbo didnt care. He wrote his book, he gave away much of his treasure, and he lived how he wanted without worrying what anyone thought of him. How freeing that must have been. I agree that as Bilbo seems happy it really doesn't matter too much, but it does seem a shame to me that he has lost some harmony with his neighbours. But if it isn't important to him then it isn't important!He didnt lose his reputation with those that mattered, Gandalf, Frodo, and the peoples that he encountered on his adventure. In fact his reputation only increased with them. It's not worth trying to impress prejudiced people because they cant be impressed so, personally I dont think the way the Hobbits saw him is to be lamented because Bilbo wasnt negatively affected by it. He wasnt ostracized or exiled, they just left him alone and that was fine by him. Maybe before it would have mattered to him but, he'd been there and back again and was a different Hobbit now, one that could cope without a pocket handkerchief or second breakfast. He still likes his comfort and food but I guess when you've faced giant spiders and dragons, the prejudice of some of your neighbors doesnt count for a whole lot in comparison. QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jul 9 2008, 06:08 AM) QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jul 6 2008, 04:55 PM) QUOTE - How important do you think Gandalf's role in the battle was? Did he know the outcome before it happened? I dont think that Gandalf knew the outcome before it happened but I do think he knows a lot about a lot of things, like he knew almost immediately that Bilbo had found the Ring, and immediately he picked up on the fact that Bilbo was acting out of character by being deceitful. I think Gandalf uses his immense knowledge and understanding with foresight to correctly anticipate events, and figure out what's going on and what will likely happen. I agree, I don't think Gandalph can see the future, but he can make certain judgements based on his knowledge of people and events (rather like Dumbledore, I imagine). I think he was important in the battle because he is seen as a powerful ally, and as long as he is still fighting, then there is still hope for victory. I'm intrigued by his character. I've never read Lord of The Rings (nor watched the films) so I'm sure there's is loads more about him that I don't know, but I can't help wondering why he left it so long to tell people that the goblins were coming. It's as if he was waiting for the opportune moment, like he knew it would have more of an effect if the others were all geared up to fight each other, then, like you say Pyxis, they were all ready to form a united front against them; I felt that he was controlling everyone that way. 
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Jul 10 2008, 11:15 AM
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man Posts: 11,144 Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005 Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape |
QUOTE(Perenelle @ Jul 9 2008, 04:52 PM) I agree that as Bilbo seems happy it really doesn't matter too much, but it does seem a shame to me that he has lost some harmony with his neighbours. But if it isn't important to him then it isn't important! To confuse matters by quoting Dumbledore, yes ... and no. It is important. And, it is a shame that the harmony has been disrupted by (in my opinion) it's this that should be lamented, and not Bilbo. He seems totally indifferent to his neighbor's attitudes. That's not to say he's ignorant of them, or unaware of the change of feeling but, he just doesnt care. And it seems to me that he genuinely is not upset by them. Like some people say they dont care when someone shuns them but inside they're really hurting. Bilbo seems to not care, he has the respect of the people that matter to him. The thing to be lamented is this idyll (sp?) or idealic (also sp?) view we have of Hobbit society is shattered. It's not all cosy burrows and second breakfast. It's actually just as full of prejudice and discrimination and bigotry as any society. Bilbo is now *different* because he has done something that is considered *not normal* and his neighbors have changed their attitude to him. If Bilbo had done something terrible then this could be understandable. But, he has had an adventure, which in itself is harmless enough, it has affected no on eexcept Bilbo and those he encountered on his adventure, but the neighbors disapprove and thus shun him. This is to be lamented because it says a lot about the Hobbit society and culture. -------------------- I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan Thanks Jeff! |
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