The Hobbit and The Precious |
 Jun 23 2008, 10:29 AM
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#11
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher  Posts: 200 Joined: 6:20pm May 20, 2007 Location: the Hills of Nowhere  |
A thought that occured to me in another thread, and I thought I would post here, as it seemed a bit more appropriate here than there:
The Ring is a Middle Earth version of a Horcrux. Now, it doesn't make Sauron immortal, persay, because he already is... sort of. But its existance keeps his power from being destroyed. And to Sauron, existance without power is worse than death. He made it with evil intentions, and he poured himself and his power literally into the Ring. That's why the Ring is semi-sentient: It has a bit of Sauron in it. So, I would think that when trying to figure out how much the Ring 'thinks', the Horcruxes would be a good guide to how much it's capable of doing. For instance, it would probably be able to 'read' and influence the thoughts/emotions of its bearer (like the necklace did w/ Ron), and be able to consciously choose to abandon an owner, and choose a new one, though, seeing as it is a ring, and therefore is an inanimate object, when things don't go according to plan, it can't do much about it right away. -------------------- You said, "I know that this will hurt,
But if I don't break your heart, things will just get worse. If the burden seems too much to bear, Remember, the end will justify the pain it took to get us there." ~Let It All Out, Relient K |
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Jun 23 2008, 11:53 AM
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#12
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man  Posts: 11,144 Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005 Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape   |
QUOTE(ravenclawgirl34 @ Jun 23 2008, 01:29 PM)  The Ring is a Middle Earth version of a Horcrux.  I didnt even think of that, like I was rereading The Hobbit & noticing so many HP parallels & that didnt even occur to me. But, it makes perfect sense because Sauron *did* put himself and his soul into the Ring, and like the Horcruxes it *binds* them all. QUOTE though, seeing as it is a ring, and therefore is an inanimate object, when things don't go according to plan, it can't do much about it right away. Like ravenclawgirl34 said, the Ring can choose to accept or abandon its owner and although it is supposedly an inanimate object, it is capable of slipping itself on or off an owners finger at will. I guess if it really didnt want a particular owner it could make his life very difficult by slipping itself on or off at totally inappropriate times, endangering the owner by making him visible, or making people ask too many questions by making him invisible at public events or places, like with Frodo in FOTR at the Inn where it is much more obvious in the book than in the movie that the Ring decides to make Frodo invisible. Okay so that's later in the story & happens to Frodo not Bilbo  But, thinking about the Ring in The Hobbit, I think maybe the act of slipping itself off Bilbo's finger as he's escaping from Gollum in the Goblin cave, was more than just a last gesture toward Gollum or an act of stubbornness toward the new owner as I first thought. Maybe it didnt want Bilbo at that time. Going in to pure speculation, had the Ring decided it really didnt want Bilbo as an owner it could have pulled that stunt a couple more times & Bilbo might have thrown the Ring away in rage or been killed by suddenly becoming visible atop the barrels or with the spiders.
--------------------   I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J.  When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan Thanks Jeff! |
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Jul 8 2008, 01:38 PM
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#13
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,839 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Jun 17 2008, 12:35 PM) QUOTE(Pyxis @ Jun 17 2008, 03:13 AM) While we are discussing the effect of the Ring on Bilbo, does anyone wonder if it was the Ring that caused him to conceal the fact he had found the Arkenstone? He seemed to be working rather hard to rationalize his desire to keep the Stone, and it seems to go against his nature to be so selfish. Of course, it was a good thing he did keep it, but still, Thorin was a respected friend and I was surprised that Bilbo could be uncaring enough to allow Thorin to continue looking for it when he knew where it was. Again this is interesting because I hadnt thought of it like this at all. I had thought how little effect the Ring had on Bilbo, that he used the Arkenstone to bring peace among the Drawrfs & Elfs & Lake-Men. And, yes this was a good thing. But, I hadnt considered the idea that he had the stone a long time before this event, yet chose to conceal it. In fact why did he seek it out at all? So he knew that Thorin wanted it more than any other treasure but why should a Hobbit then go looking for it and, having found it decide to keep it. And have a tough time justifying to himself why he was lying to his friends.  Things are not as simple as they first seem lolThose are interesting thoughts, Pyxis and Moose and I hadn't considered the possession of the Ring influencing Bilbo's secrecy of Arkenstone. I believe it wasn't the Ring influencing Bilbo; but Bilbo's inner struggle with his adventures and his dealings with the dwarves that drove him to his actions. When Bilbo found the stone, as a reader, I felt that Bilbo felt some sort of entitlement, almost like a "finders keepers loosers weepers" mentality. Bilbo was the one who faced so many dangers and it was after all he that saved the dwarves. I could almost feel Bilbo's distrust of Thorin so strong here. So his first impulse did seem selfish; but Bilbo might have thought that he deserved it. However, later we see that he uses the stone for completely unselfish purposes; he uses it as a means to try and restore peace rather than keep it. Ravenclawgirl34's insights about comparing the Ring to Horcruxes are very interesting; and that the Ring could be construed as being a part of Saurong's soul. However, for me as a reader, the Ring holds even more power than that; it seems that the Ring also somehow holds and harnesses within it the wonderment, magic and nature of Middle Earth itself. And the possessor of the Ring doesn't depend on the Ring itself but on the state that Middle Earth finds itself in. It is almost as if the changes that have occurred in Middle Earth guide who finds it. So the Ring and Middle Earth find themselves in constant struggle until finally only one can survive in order for balance to prevail. This post has been edited by lirene: Jul 8 2008, 01:41 PM --------------------  |
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Jul 9 2008, 12:33 AM
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#14
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Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit Posts: 2,632 Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007 |
In reading back over this section, I am convinced that it was the influence of the ring that caused him to first take, and then conceal the Arkenstone. The text suggests that he did it without thinking about it
QUOTE Suddenly, Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by it's enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket. The way it is written suggests to me that his mind was not controlling the actions of his body, because his mind knew it was wrong. Shutting his eyes was a way to avoid acknowledging his actions. Also, the description of the Arkenstone indicates that it is a symbol of power, it captures light and belongs to a King...the ring is also a symbol of power, perhaps it is trying to draw more power to itself. Does that make sense? I guess we'll never know for sure, but certainly the taking of this valuable object seems to go against Bilbo's natural honesty. |
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Jul 9 2008, 10:36 AM
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#15
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Leaky's Official Donut Maker and Mosquito Man Posts: 11,144 Joined: 10:51am August 25, 2005 Location: Playing kal-toh with Professor Snape |
I have to agree with Pyxis. When I re-read The Hobbit I hadnt actually discussed or theorized with anyone (gasp & shock lol), unlike with HP where I still theorize about every detail. But, since my original thoughts that the Ring had little or no effect on Bilbo, other than Gandalf finding it disturbibg that Bilbo should conceal the Ring and be deceitful contrary to his nature, now I think it did have a lot of influence on him. The effects just dont manifest themselfs as plainly as with Frodo or the Fellowship because Bilbo is pure of heart and, the Ring isnt yet as powerful as it is in LOTR.
But, with the Arkenstone I think this was the Ring's influence. Bilbo took it without really knowing why, he hid it from the dwarfs, and concealed the fact he'd found it. I hadnt thought of the fact the Arkenstone is also powerful and the Ring is seeking it out, maybe like those crystal ball things in LOTR that call the Ring and those in the presence of the ring to them. Sauron uses those stones to let the Eye see the Ring and I dont think anyone's using the Arkenstone for those purposes but, maybe it can be made stronger by being in the presence of a powerful stone or, maybe it just influences Bilbo to take the Arkenstone which is the one singular stone of all the treasure that Thorin most wants. I do think it's the Ring that takes the Arkenstone, but it's Bilbo that gives it to Bard. Either the Ring is too weak, or Bilbo is too strong, but in the end he uses the Arkenstone for a good cause. -------------------- I'm 1 of the 99.99% W.L.Y.J. When I sleep I dream, and when I dream I can rise above the walls Remember Cameron Duncan Thanks Jeff! |
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Jul 9 2008, 11:12 AM
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#16
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,839 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
I re-read the excerpt you gave Pyxis and it is indeed interesting
 It does sound as if Bilbo was somehow enchanted for mere moments when he saw the Arkenstone; an extraordinary and powerful gem. The reason I thought that Bilbo taking the stone had to do with his inner struggle with the dwarves was because of Bilbo's inner monologue here after he takes the stone:QUOTE Now I am a burglar indeed! But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it- some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest! Having said this; yes taking the stone goes against Bilbo's character. What if he wanted to prove himself somehow? Bilbo has had to prove himself to the dwarves over and over again, beginning with the scene with the Trolls.Could Bilbo have been under the influence of both the Ring and the Arkenstone then; or the Arkenstone alone? The Arkenstone itself caused Thorin great agitation. True, he felt that the stone was rightfully his; but on learning that Bilbo took it he became enraged and flung Bilbo aside when up until then he was a trusted part of the adventure. How quickly he denounced Bilbo over the Arkenstone. -------------------- |
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