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Hogwarts' Christmas Panto, Or the Flair of the White Worm

davidenglish View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 12:55 AM Post #1
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,606 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	In the notes to "Fountain of Fair Fortune" Dumbledore speaks of Hogwarts' one experiment with the Christmas Pantomime or English Panto. See history of the pantomime. The event proves to be something of a disaster and marks the first and last time this is tried. The Hogwarts panto is written and directed by Prof Herbert Beery. As a note, I think JKR is punning on the name of actor Herbert Beerbohm Tree, who was the original Prof Henry Higgins in the premiere of Shaw's Pygmalion. Tree was also the founder of RADA, from which Jo puns WADA. Well, here's a sampling of a panto, and here (check out the who's playing the Fairy Godmother with a magic wand) and here. For dem's wot ain't seen one. Oh, no, it's not. Oh, yes, it is. Have you ever seen one? What did you think? Why do you think JKR thought "Fountain of Fair Fortune" might lend itself to a panto production? Do you think JKR is poking fun at pantos? Or is she making broader fun of high school musicals? Or is this just the kind of messy farce that all pantos are? Do you think the Leaky staff should mount a restaging of the "Fountain of Fair Fortune" panto at LeakyCon 2009. "Where? There! There?, No, THERE." -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

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Replies (1 - 9)

hck View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 03:29 AM Post #2
Knight Bus Driver in Training Posts: 558 Joined: 6:48am March 9, 2005 Location: Looking for a bookshop in Knockturn Alley	I guess it's one of the many examples where there might be a lot of intended allusions in JKR's text and yet we can't be swure, as they also might be mere coincidences. Let's try to put a date to the event: p. 36 (Bloomsbury standard edition) DD says "I was then a young Transfiguration teacher". Now, it's not easy to pot exact dates to DD's career, but I guess we can assume that we are talking about something like the second half of the 1930s. Gilbert Keith Chesterton died in 1936 and one of his Father Brown stories (The Flying Stars) has both a Christmas pantomime, quarrels, some chaos, the end of a career/tradition, a love story ... . So part of this may be a bowing to Chesterton (who like JKR put spiritual messages into readable fiction) . But, as said: I fear almost all we can provide here is speculation. However: almost all, not all: I atree: WADA corresponds rather certainly to RADA: good spotting. Thanks! -------------------- Theoria magiae non est magia mere theoretica

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 07:27 AM Post #3
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,229 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	QUOTE(davidenglish @ Dec 9 2008, 11:55 PM) In the notes to "Fountain of Fair Fortune" Dumbledore speaks of Hogwarts' one experiment with the Christmas Pantomime or English Panto. See history of the pantomime. The event proves to be something of a disaster and marks the first and last time this is tried. Have you ever seen one? What did you think? Why do you think JKR thought "Fountain of Fair Fortune" might lend itself to a panto production? Do you think JKR is poking fun at pantos? Or is she making broader fun of high school musicals? Or is this just the kind of messy farce that all pantos are? I've seen many pantomimes, some locally at a few of the smaller theaters in the Houston/Galveston area, most by university or secondary school students. Interestingly enough, I've taught pantomime in some of my classes, using Cinderella. I've seen teachers with younger students use it in their lesson plans as well. (Here is a lesson plan for Kindergarten using pantomime that is easily adaptable to most age groups) I've also done Billy Goats Three and Me with older classes. Here is a lesson for Billy Goats adapted by The University of California at Irvine. One of the best lesson plans I've ever graded from one of my student teachers was a pantomime adaptation of Where the While Things Are developed for high school students. It's interesting to picture wizard students putting on a pantomime after watching some of what my own students have done. QUOTE Or is she making broader fun of high school musicals? One of the distinct purposes of panthos is the fun-factor. Most teachers accept and embrace the belief that students need to be actively engaged to really absorb a concept. There is no easier way to actively engage a student then to make sure they are having fun, and while I've seen more then my fair share of high school musicals, (most are very good actually) I think JKR would understand the place it serves in the educational process of a student. As far as her having a little fun with the genre of pantos, don't we all? Besides, my kid was the BEST Charlie Brown ever! -------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It!

rowena r View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 08:15 AM Post #4
Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 4,980 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss.	QUOTE One of the distinct purposes of panthos is the fun-factor. I think JKR would understand the place it serves in the educational process of a student. As far as her having a little fun with the genre of pantos, don't we all? I agree Doris. I've had the opportunity to enjoy 2 good ones and will say that it was rip-roaring fun even though one of them nearly ended up as the enactment of The Fountain of Fair Fortune at Hogwarts. (maybe that added to the fun-factor) If the persons performing are given enough freedom while ensuring that the essence is not distorted, a pantomime is a good way to instruct as well as entertain. -------------------- L O V E

davidenglish View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 09:53 AM Post #5
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,606 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	What! No one checked out the lovely Julie Walters as the Fairy Godmother. She apperates in a flash of fire and smoke and brandishes her magic wand. And this was long before Harry Potter. QUOTE(hck @ Dec 10 2008, 09:29 AM) Gilbert Keith Chesterton died in 1936 and one of his Father Brown stories (The Flying Stars) has both a Christmas pantomime, quarrels, some chaos, the end of a career/tradition, a love story ... . So part of this may be a bowing to Chesterton (who like JKR put spiritual messages into readable fiction). Well, I'm not sure that we need to look for anything more than a pun. And, frankly, I'd be more inclined to believe JKR was poking fun at Chesterton in those letters from Lucius Malfoy. The Christmas Pantomime is as much a British tradition as the Macy's Santa Claus Parade. It does appear in many stories and films. And, in truth, Dumbledore's commentary is the kind of send up commentary that marks a panto like the one I linked to on YouTube. It's part of the comic ribbing of the morality tale that marks a panto (see Julie Walter's little reference to Good & Evil) that sees the rivalry between Lucius Malfoy and Albus Dumbledore reduced to a quarrel over a fairytale. QUOTE(DorisTLC @ Dec 10 2008, 01:27 PM) I've seen many pantomimes, some locally at a few of the smaller theaters in the Houston/Galveston area, most by university or secondary school students. Interestingly enough, I've taught pantomime in some of my classes, using Cinderella. I've seen teachers with younger students use it in their lesson plans as well. (Here is a lesson plan for Kindergarten using pantomime that is easily adaptable to most age groups) I've also done Billy Goats Three and Me with older classes. Here is a lesson for Billy Goats adapted by The University of California at Irvine. One of the best lesson plans I've ever graded from one of my student teachers was a pantomime adaptation of Where the While Things Are developed for high school students. It's interesting to picture wizard students putting on a pantomime after watching some of what my own students have done. Oh, I love the links. And I think JKR does have a lot of fun describing the student love triangle, the frustrated efforts of the teachers, and the meddlesomeness of the parent Malfoy. This interpolations are what make a panto so much fun. Love triangles, tragic though they can be, are inherently farcical. And seeing teachers learning lessons always delights students. And I love the interpolation of Malfoy as a kind of Laura Mallory figure. This post has been edited by davidenglish: Dec 10 2008, 09:53 AM -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

SueTLC View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 10:28 AM Post #6
Hufflepuff Princess Posts: 1,371 Joined: 2:04pm January 4, 2005 Location: Head Bartender at the Cauldron News Bar	QUOTE(davidenglish @ Dec 10 2008, 12:55 AM) In the notes to "Fountain of Fair Fortune" Dumbledore speaks of Hogwarts' one experiment with the Christmas Pantomime or English Panto. See history of the pantomime. The event proves to be something of a disaster and marks the first and last time this is tried. The Hogwarts panto is written and directed by Prof Herbert Beery. As a note, I think JKR is punning on the name of actor Herbert Beerbohm Tree, who was the original Prof Henry Higgins in the premiere of Shaw's Pygmalion. Tree was also the founder of RADA, from which Jo puns WADA. Well, here's a sampling of a panto, and here (check out the who's playing the Fairy Godmother with a magic wand) and here. For dem's wot ain't seen one. Oh, no, it's not. Oh, yes, it is. Have you ever seen one? What did you think? Why do you think JKR thought "Fountain of Fair Fortune" might lend itself to a panto production? Do you think JKR is poking fun at pantos? Or is she making broader fun of high school musicals? Or is this just the kind of messy farce that all pantos are? Do you think the Leaky staff should mount a restaging of the "Fountain of Fair Fortune" panto at LeakyCon 2009. "Where? There! There?, No, THERE." HAHAHA David, if I thought we could pull it off, I most certainly would LOVE to be part of a Leaky production of the Fountain! Such fun! I do love Panto, a Leaky panto troupe would be grand indeed! I must admit, the footnote/commentary contained in this story is my favorite of the Beedle book. The mind boggles what the scene in the Great Hall must have looked after that fiasco, smoke billowing and imagine the gossip and conversation going on with the portraits! I wonder if Peeves was about in those days? He'd been in a state of mischief bliss! LOL Roared with laughter at the worm part as well; just goes to prove the groundskeepers at Hogwarts are traditionally risk- takers when it comes to those magical creatures I do wonder if screenwriter Kloves had been privy to any of this information when he created the umm uh memorable singing frog choir for Prisoner of Azkaban lol -------------------- 12/18/07: VICTORY FOR MY QUEEN HELGA HUFFLEPUFF JKR:Hufflepuff did what was the most moral thing to do at that time...SU: She did not go around with a whip and say"Yah! You must work in the kitchens!"Right? JKR: No, definitely not. That would not be- No (SU: See?)Definitely not, John. SU: Thank you, Jo!

hck View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 10:37 AM Post #7
Knight Bus Driver in Training Posts: 558 Joined: 6:48am March 9, 2005 Location: Looking for a bookshop in Knockturn Alley	QUOTE(SueTLC @ Dec 10 2008, 10:28 PM) [I wonder if Peeves was about in those days? I guess he was, as JKR seems to say that he is more or less a part of the building, one of those things which just do come with Hogwarts here: QUOTE ES: Why does Dumbledore allow Peeves to stay in the castle? JKR: Can't get him out. ES: He's Dumbledore, he can do anything! JKR: No, no no no no. Peeves is like dry rot. You can try and eradicate it. It comes with the building. You’re stuck. If you've got Peeves you're stuck. ES: But Peeves answers to Dumbledore - JKR: Allegedly. MA: Allegedly? JKR: Yeah. I see Peeves as like a severe plumbing problem in a very old building, and Dumbledore is slightly better with the spanner than most people, so he can maybe make it function better for a few weeks. Then it’s going to start leaking again. -------------------- Theoria magiae non est magia mere theoretica

JohannMdlAmerica View Member Profile	Dec 10 2008, 03:28 PM Post #8
Spellotaping Monster Books of Monsters Posts: 2,500 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse	As I write this, Julie Waters is in the background. It's neat to see her not "betwitched, bothered and bewildered". Recently, I was reading one of the speculation threads elsewhere on LL. Some folk were wondering where the arts were in the kids magical education. I think the panto shows us a hint to the drama of the canon: HP is not a slice of life. It uses the life cycle to advance what needs advancing. The arts were not necessarily critical to moving the plot of the Four. They're there ... witness the band at the Christmas Ball and the band at Bill and Fleur's wedding. They just weren't part of where JKR needed to take the plot and the theme. Actually, DE looking at the youtube you gave us, I'm convinced that JKR is poking fun not at high school productions (which can be pretty darn good), but at elementary and middle school productions. What parent among us has not clapped loudly for our kids in the elementary all-purpose room at 8, then late that night quietly chortled about how truly far the little darlings have to go? As an aside ... it's amazing how fast they grow up.. Tevye and Tzeitel were right... -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter

HP Theoretician View Member Profile	Dec 14 2008, 06:26 AM Post #9
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 303 Joined: 2:13am November 25, 2006 Location: In hiding.	The "Christmas Panto" notes mentioned that Professor Beery was reluctant to perform this story in his acting career, as he claimed it to be unlucky. Who could blame him? As I read that however, I was reminded of the mystery surrounding staged versions of Macbeth. Cast and crew do not mention the name of the play, as it is believed to be unlucky and will result in all sorts of incidents and mishaps in the theatre. Instead, it is referred to as "The Scottish Play". That's just what was in my head at the time... -------------------- Anyone know any good drowning songs?

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Dec 14 2008, 10:13 AM Post #10
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,229 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	QUOTE(HP Theoretician @ Dec 14 2008, 05:26 AM) The "Christmas Panto" notes mentioned that Professor Beery was reluctant to perform this story in his acting career, as he claimed it to be unlucky. Who could blame him? As I read that however, I was reminded of the mystery surrounding staged versions of Macbeth. Cast and crew do not mention the name of the play, as it is believed to be unlucky and will result in all sorts of incidents and mishaps in the theatre. Instead, it is referred to as "The Scottish Play". That's just what was in my head at the time... HP Theoretician that thought entered my head also. (Great minds think alike) I could not help but chuckle at the thought of Jo's "Scottish Book" (her encyclopedia) and her comments regarding this book on PotterCast. I find Dumbledore's comment regarding wizarding families wanting the story banned from wizard libraries amusing considering HP is one of the most contested books in American libraries. -------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It!

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