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The Impact of the WB/JKR vs. RDR Lawsuit on the Fandom, How will YOU be affected?
AlexisTedesko
post Jan 10 2008, 08:54 AM
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QUOTE(davidenglish @ Jan 6 2008, 01:16 AM) *
Well, stranger than fiction, there is a sub-genre of Slash Fic based on real people. So you might end up with your favorite local newscaster in a love tryst with Britney Spears.


lol, yeah, but fanfiction.net and most fanfiction websites have removed the RPF category because of possible lawsuits


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CommonLoon
post Jan 10 2008, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE(hck @ Jan 10 2008, 06:03 AM) *
QUOTE(CommonLoon @ Jan 10 2008, 11:16 AM) *
In the case of CC advocacy groups, I wonder who funds them and if their funders have any interest in free content.


I can't answer for all of them. For those I know about: they are funded (more or less directly or indirectly) by the tax payers.

Yes, the tax payers have interest in free content.
There is a growing tendency to (try to) force scholars to make all of their publications which stem from publicly funded research available as open access publications.

CC permits the authors to grant some rights while retaining others. CC just makes it easier for the users to find out which are legal uses (and which are not) in the case of a documet published under a CC license without having to contact the author or publisher etc..

Advocating the use of CC is not identical to advocating the abolishment of some or all intellectual property rights.


My state's university system provides pretty good access to journals, though if you're not a student you have to visit the library versus logging in online, and it's generally not difficult to obtain reprints of articles. The thing, though, about expanding access (say, every citizen could get a user name and password for online access to their state's university library system, which would be nice) is that it costs more to provide more people with access, so it's not really free to the taxpayers. The pea is just under a different shell.

I've seen pages with CC licenses and clicked their links to see what uses they allow. CC goes beyond just explaining permitted uses because it allows you, if you want, to select uses that would not stand under fair use in copyright law. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't find copyright and fair use to be very difficult concepts in the vast majority of cases (the Lexicon being an exception, mostly because no one actually knows what would have been in the book). If CC were only concerned with explaining, they could just have set up a website for people to link to from the copyright disclaimer on their material. I don't have a problem with people using CC for their work, but I don't want it to erode others' rights.

But I lumped CC advocates with other groups. For example, the Fair Use Project's mission statement: "The Stanford Center for Internet and Society's "Fair Use Project" ("the FUP") was founded in 2006 to provide legal support to a range of projects designed to clarify, and extend, the boundaries of "fair use" in order to enhance creative freedom." The FUP isn't creativecommons.org, though some of their ideology is quite similar.

Codifying a creative commons is a good thing, I agree. But dragging unwilling participants into it isn't fair.

QUOTE(MsJava @ Jan 10 2008, 03:46 AM) *
I've been reading all the threads on this topic, and I find myself thinking back to the fall and when there was that huge blowup about Prince and his lawyers going around and shutting down fansites for "copyright" infringement. Also reminds me of the great Napster debate a couple of years back. Artists were complaining because their creative ideas were being downloaded with no profit attached. (though, in reality a musician/band only makes $0.15 per CD)

Now, please excuse my ignorance while I put my thoughts in order.

Lawyers are coming after the Lexicon because people were trying to get it published right? And this would obviously put a dent in Jo's sales if she ever decided to print "the Scottish book" right?

Maybe I'm being naive, maybe I'm totally speaking out of turn, but if Jo supports the fandom and everything that includes (i.e. the lexicon) couldn't there be someway to work together? I don't see why both parties can't benifit from this. The Lexicon looks like it took a lot of research and a lot of hard work to put up. Couldn't this two parties work together to bring us, the fans, something we all want?

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but those are just some ideas. If I'm totally off the mark, here are my apologies in advance.


If I were a band, I would want every single possible 15 cents from every possible CD sale (or better, try to release my music on my own label so I could make a more reasonable percentage). Just because artists make a small fraction of the retail price doesn't mean that isn't still money and that artists don't still have bills to pay. Most people have worked crappy after-school jobs. Just because the paycheck wasn't large doesn't mean it's unwanted.

The rationale for Rowling/WB's lawsuit was partly the potential dent in sales (actually, that's the weakest part of their argument), but they also filed it because they feared the Lexicon book would infringe on their copyrights and trademarks. Remember, RDR wouldn't tell what was or wasn't in the book prior to the courts becoming involved. In fact, they were rude and evasive, which is their right to be, but which one can hardly expect to help in the resolution of a conflict without having to resort to the judicial system.

The problem with both parties working together is that Rowling didn't want to collaborate with Vander Ark. He asked and she declined, which she's entitled to do. First, she doesn't know Vander Ark. Why would she want to work with a stranger? Second, the type of encyclopedia she described on PotterCast is very different from the Lexicon, and she would need no help from Vander Ark to produce what she described.

The fans actually have a better product in the dynamic, always-under-revision Lexicon website than they would ever have in a static book. Especially one that was going to go to press before the Deathly Hallows updates were anywhere near complete.

If RDR and Vander Ark had responded to Rowling and WB prior to the filing of the lawsuit, perhaps the parties could have worked together to ensure that the book didn't infringe, but we'll never know now if that was possible because it was never tried.


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MsJava
post Jan 10 2008, 11:10 PM
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Makes me wonder whose going to suffer the most out of all this...

QUOTE(CommonLoon @ Jan 10 2008, 02:28 PM) *
QUOTE(hck @ Jan 10 2008, 06:03 AM) *
QUOTE(CommonLoon @ Jan 10 2008, 11:16 AM) *
In the case of CC advocacy groups, I wonder who funds them and if their funders have any interest in free content.


I can't answer for all of them. For those I know about: they are funded (more or less directly or indirectly) by the tax payers.

Yes, the tax payers have interest in free content.
There is a growing tendency to (try to) force scholars to make all of their publications which stem from publicly funded research available as open access publications.

CC permits the authors to grant some rights while retaining others. CC just makes it easier for the users to find out which are legal uses (and which are not) in the case of a documet published under a CC license without having to contact the author or publisher etc..

Advocating the use of CC is not identical to advocating the abolishment of some or all intellectual property rights.


My state's university system provides pretty good access to journals, though if you're not a student you have to visit the library versus logging in online, and it's generally not difficult to obtain reprints of articles. The thing, though, about expanding access (say, every citizen could get a user name and password for online access to their state's university library system, which would be nice) is that it costs more to provide more people with access, so it's not really free to the taxpayers. The pea is just under a different shell.

I've seen pages with CC licenses and clicked their links to see what uses they allow. CC goes beyond just explaining permitted uses because it allows you, if you want, to select uses that would not stand under fair use in copyright law. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't find copyright and fair use to be very difficult concepts in the vast majority of cases (the Lexicon being an exception, mostly because no one actually knows what would have been in the book). If CC were only concerned with explaining, they could just have set up a website for people to link to from the copyright disclaimer on their material. I don't have a problem with people using CC for their work, but I don't want it to erode others' rights.

But I lumped CC advocates with other groups. For example, the Fair Use Project's mission statement: "The Stanford Center for Internet and Society's "Fair Use Project" ("the FUP") was founded in 2006 to provide legal support to a range of projects designed to clarify, and extend, the boundaries of "fair use" in order to enhance creative freedom." The FUP isn't creativecommons.org, though some of their ideology is quite similar.

Codifying a creative commons is a good thing, I agree. But dragging unwilling participants into it isn't fair.

QUOTE(MsJava @ Jan 10 2008, 03:46 AM) *
I've been reading all the threads on this topic, and I find myself thinking back to the fall and when there was that huge blowup about Prince and his lawyers going around and shutting down fansites for "copyright" infringement. Also reminds me of the great Napster debate a couple of years back. Artists were complaining because their creative ideas were being downloaded with no profit attached. (though, in reality a musician/band only makes $0.15 per CD)

Now, please excuse my ignorance while I put my thoughts in order.

Lawyers are coming after the Lexicon because people were trying to get it published right? And this would obviously put a dent in Jo's sales if she ever decided to print "the Scottish book" right?

Maybe I'm being naive, maybe I'm totally speaking out of turn, but if Jo supports the fandom and everything that includes (i.e. the lexicon) couldn't there be someway to work together? I don't see why both parties can't benifit from this. The Lexicon looks like it took a lot of research and a lot of hard work to put up. Couldn't this two parties work together to bring us, the fans, something we all want?

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but those are just some ideas. If I'm totally off the mark, here are my apologies in advance.


If I were a band, I would want every single possible 15 cents from every possible CD sale (or better, try to release my music on my own label so I could make a more reasonable percentage). Just because artists make a small fraction of the retail price doesn't mean that isn't still money and that artists don't still have bills to pay. Most people have worked crappy after-school jobs. Just because the paycheck wasn't large doesn't mean it's unwanted.

The rationale for Rowling/WB's lawsuit was partly the potential dent in sales (actually, that's the weakest part of their argument), but they also filed it because they feared the Lexicon book would infringe on their copyrights and trademarks. Remember, RDR wouldn't tell what was or wasn't in the book prior to the courts becoming involved. In fact, they were rude and evasive, which is their right to be, but which one can hardly expect to help in the resolution of a conflict without having to resort to the judicial system.

The problem with both parties working together is that Rowling didn't want to collaborate with Vander Ark. He asked and she declined, which she's entitled to do. First, she doesn't know Vander Ark. Why would she want to work with a stranger? Second, the type of encyclopedia she described on PotterCast is very different from the Lexicon, and she would need no help from Vander Ark to produce what she described.

The fans actually have a better product in the dynamic, always-under-revision Lexicon website than they would ever have in a static book. Especially one that was going to go to press before the Deathly Hallows updates were anywhere near complete.

If RDR and Vander Ark had responded to Rowling and WB prior to the filing of the lawsuit, perhaps the parties could have worked together to ensure that the book didn't infringe, but we'll never know now if that was possible because it was never tried.


Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I totally agree with bands, authors, any creative team wanting to be recongized (i.e. paid) for thier hard work. Thus why I support the writer's strike. Thus after reading through all these posts, I think my loyalty will lie with Rowling. As a writer (and published poet) I would be wicked upset if suddenly I found out someone was publishing *my* work with a couple of edits. The Lexicon on the internet is one thing, how else am I suppose to find out all the mundane details of Neville Longbottom? Though if I throw something orginal up on a website, I have to pray that people will pay attention to that little copyright symbol and not to try and publish my work as thier own.

This all seems like it was handled badly and everyone is going to suffer, no matter what the outcome is. Whether it be Rowling, Vander Ark, or the fandom. We should be happy Rowling isn't just saying "screw it, all of you are gone".

edited to merge two consecutive posts


This post has been edited by Iheartprofessorsnape: Jan 11 2008, 12:25 AM


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DaisyRenee
post Jan 11 2008, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE(MsJava @ Jan 11 2008, 04:10 AM) *
This all seems like it was handled badly and everyone is going to suffer, no matter what the outcome is. Whether it be Rowling, Vander Ark, or the fandom. We should be happy Rowling isn't just saying "screw it, all of you are gone".

That's my opinion here as well. I suppose we'll just have to wait for Tuesday and see what else we can learn.


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CommonLoon
post Jan 11 2008, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE(MsJava @ Jan 11 2008, 12:10 AM) *
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I totally agree with bands, authors, any creative team wanting to be recongized (i.e. paid) for thier hard work. Thus why I support the writer's strike. Thus after reading through all these posts, I think my loyalty will lie with Rowling. As a writer (and published poet) I would be wicked upset if suddenly I found out someone was publishing *my* work with a couple of edits. The Lexicon on the internet is one thing, how else am I suppose to find out all the mundane details of Neville Longbottom? Though if I throw something orginal up on a website, I have to pray that people will pay attention to that little copyright symbol and not to try and publish my work as thier own.


That's a good point. A lot of copyright depends on people respecting other people's ownership of their artistic work. There is the legal system to take care of disputes, but you have to have a certain amount of resources at your command to bring a case. So most of the time, you have to trust people won't take stuff that isn't theirs and misuse it...and that, even if they have only good intentions, they will be informed enough about copyright and fair use to follow the rules.

QUOTE
This all seems like it was handled badly and everyone is going to suffer, no matter what the outcome is. Whether it be Rowling, Vander Ark, or the fandom. We should be happy Rowling isn't just saying "screw it, all of you are gone".


Yeah, fortunately Rowling wouldn't let the issue of the Lexicon book goad her to saying anything nasty like "Well, then, you can't have my encyclopedia!" She's pretty well-grounded, it appears.


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davidenglish
post Jan 16 2008, 07:22 PM
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Well, over a 1000 pages of documents landed on the doorsteps of RDR and SVA yesterday. And JKR made a statement herself which essentially agreed with what I and several posters here have said: that a win for RDR would be disasterous for fandom. You can read JKR statement here.


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post Jan 16 2008, 10:03 PM
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Well, I just finished reading JKR's statement, and it was a very clear expression of her thoughts on the matter, to say the least. I was unaware that RDR books was also intending to market the book further by using a quote taken from Rowling and plastering it on the back cover as if she were endorsing it.

No kidding that's adding insult to injury, and quite frankly, I'm left to wonder what Rowling really thinks about the matter at hand, other than what was given to us in her statement.

I'll admit to not having been able to follow this case as closely as I would like, but it seems to me that Mr. Vander Ark and RDR are carelessly toying with what could potentially be quite a blow to an enormous and devoted fandom - all for the sake of personal profit - and worse - without any integrity behind it what-so-ever.

Very uncool.


This post has been edited by Oxymoronic: Jan 17 2008, 12:42 AM


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DaisyRenee
post Jan 18 2008, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE(Oxymoronic @ Jan 17 2008, 04:03 AM) *
Well, I just finished reading JKR's statement, and it was a very clear expression of her thoughts on the matter, to say the least. I was unaware that RDR books was also intending to market the book further by using a quote taken from Rowling and plastering it on the back cover as if she were endorsing it.

No kidding that's adding insult to injury, and quite frankly, I'm left to wonder what Rowling really thinks about the matter at hand, other than what was given to us in her statement.

I'll admit to not having been able to follow this case as closely as I would like, but it seems to me that Mr. Vander Ark and RDR are carelessly toying with what could potentially be quite a blow to an enormous and devoted fandom - all for the sake of personal profit - and worse - without any integrity behind it what-so-ever.

Very uncool.

As I tell the preschoolers I work with, "We don't do that to our friends, that's not okay!"

Steve has represented himself as a friend to the fandom for many years. And many of us believed that. Many of us tried to come up with rational explainations for his statements on those YouTube videos. Many of us believed that this had to be a misunderstanding, because our good friend Steve would never hang the fandom out to dry like that. He would never put us at risk of being shut down.

I've been reading around, and I'm not the only one of those people who is finished with defending Steve. We feel let down, and we're hopping mad about it. The actions WB has documentation of Steve having taken are not the actions of a person who is a friend to the fandom. He's put us all on the line through his behavior, and I for one would like to know why he was willing to risk us all just for a chance at being published.

We don't do that to our friends, Steve. That's not okay.


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wondering
post Jan 18 2008, 11:40 AM
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DaiyRenee: I think you have a little more room to defend SVA here. He certainly doesn't want to harm fandom. No, I think fandom is very important to him. Vitally important, in a-not-good- for-your-mental-health way.

I'm sure there a fans who are on his side. Many of the shippers and some of the "I know How it was really supposed to be" fans have been more than a little irrational in their vitriol towards JKR. However, SVA wants all the fans. He definitely sees himself as president of the fan club. He's second only to JKR and now that she's done...

If you read the e-mails in the court record, SVA writes in a chummy tone that's not appropriate to the situations. Read his responses on the Lexicon and you get that same "Jo and I are such good friends, complete equals" tone again. He wants to chat over tea and work things out, he speaks on her behalf. I've said before that it's almost as if he's in an RPG. He's writing a larger role for himself.

All said, I'm rethinking your comments on niceness. Perhaps it is a good thing for SVA to read and hear all of the anger and frustration. Maybe it will act as some sort of intervention and move him back to reality. I mean there's a difference between aspirations and delusions and SVA seems a little self-deluded.

Unfortunately, he's dragged all of fandom into his personal world. He cannot put this genie back in the bottle so we'll wait while the lawyers and judge resolve this mess. (You could write a story about his personal life mirroring his fandom one...don't worry mods, I'm not going there.)

Editing to add that this reads harsher than I intend. I'm not sure delusional is the right word but something is off-kilter.


This post has been edited by wondering: Jan 18 2008, 05:02 PM


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post Jan 18 2008, 01:07 PM
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DaisyRenee, I certainly don't blame you for feeling let down - I'm in the process of going back and reading through some of the threads about this topic - and you certainly defended Steve to the best of your abilities - that's clear through some of your posts.

To now feel the need to change your stance on this issue based on the information we keep receiving, well, that couldn't have been easy. I (so far) agree with your statement that Steve's actions are not those of a "friend to the fandom" and could potentially deal us a frightful blow.

Wondering, sure the fandom is important to Steve, but like you stated, it is important to him in an unhealthy way - and perhaps, if he is reading through these posts and choosing to "see" only the opinions of those on his side, he has become as delusional as some posters claim he is. But, clearly, we have no way of knowing for sure whether or not he reads our posts (although if I were a gambler, I would bet that he does - it would fit in with what I perceive to be his monstrous ego to do so.)


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